Rapid Maneuver Change - Please Revert (PvE Impact & PvP Performance Impact)

Vercingetorix

Using Rapids in PvE to give oneself the Major Expedition buff to navigate the overworld or delves on foot faster was extremely useful as a tool. It was balanced because you couldn't attack with it active or you'd lose the buff. People use this skill extensively in PvE for questing and you're not giving us another tool to compensate for it. Rapids is not unbalanced in PvP so there's no reason to remove because of that, either. In fact, this change actually makes PvP more imbalanced by adding a combat spammable for ball groups, the leading source of lag in Cyrodiil. Please revert this change.

In case I'm not being clear ZoS, here's the a quick list of the major problems:
- Folks who have physical/medical limitations suffer from this change that now forces extensive button mashing/spamming in order to move while they quest or navigate the map.
- More lag in Cyrodiil due to Rapids being spammed by ball groups in a high concentration area. This is clearly an anti-performance change for Cyrodiil.
- Questing becomes incredibly more painful due to a lack of mobility skill to allow a player to navigate more effectively around the map. Mounts can't be used everywhere.

EDIT: I'm glad that many others are seeing this garbage change for what it is. I'm tagging Gina and Brian. This change NEEDS to be reverted ASAP. Rapid Maneuver can be a "Rule Breaker" because it is strictly a utility tool and has combat restrictions built into its buffs to avoid abuse.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Cortimi

You know someone has been hitting the skooma when they nerf something that literally has zero use in combat.

Feric51

I'm kinda impressed it took this long for them to nerf it. It was several updates ago they put the hammer down on nearly every other source of major expedition - from gear sets to skills - so I wasn't really surprised by this.

The cost reduction is a nice touch, as for my mag characters the whole major expedition thing didn't make a tremendous impact to me when the cost was over half my stamina pool and I could only sprint for around 6-7 seconds anyway. I would be curious to know how many people used rapids for the major expedition rather than the major gallop? I mount up, cast rapids, and ride off into the sunset, which will now be cheaper!

Also, as an interesting bit, the minor expedition will be front-loaded to stack with the major, so you'll be able to move even fast, albeit for a shorter period of time.

Tsukiino

It's a dumb change. They're been reducing duration on Major Expedition on a lot of sources lately.

Chains (DK), Expedition Pots, and now ... Rapids, of all things. Who complained about this?

Do you know what the longest lasting Major Expedition is gonna be next patch if this stays? Channeled Acceleration.

Vercingetorix

Feric51 wrote: »

I'm kinda impressed it took this long for them to nerf it. It was several updates ago they put the hammer down on nearly every other source of major expedition - from gear sets to skills - so I wasn't really surprised by this.

The cost reduction is a nice touch, as for my mag characters the whole major expedition thing didn't make a tremendous impact to me when the cost was over half my stamina pool and I could only sprint for around 6-7 seconds anyway. I would be curious to know how many people used rapids for the major expedition rather than the major gallop? I mount up, cast rapids, and ride off into the sunset, which will now be cheaper!

Also, as an interesting bit, the minor expedition will be front-loaded to stack with the major, so you'll be able to move even fast, albeit for a shorter period of time.

You can't mount in a delve. If you're stuck in combat, you can't mount. The cost of Rapids is irrelevant because it lasted 30 secs which was long enough to regenerate the cost. Rapids has no combat use and this nerf addresses no issues while creating new ones.

fred4

I overlooked this. Don't know how I feel about it. I will miss this in PvE. It was totally viable on stamina characters, especially with a sprint cost reduction set, such as Prisoner (let's say you didn't want to wear Coward's). It was also viable as a perma-cloaking magblade to waste your complete stam pool, then cloak at lightning speed through a delve, e.g. for the skyshard.

I find what it does for PvP curious. You can now give your whole group Major Expedition in combat. You can also take advantage of the CP Unchained passive as an individual and cast it for cheap after break free, which would appear to give you Major Expedition and full root and snare immunity for 8 seconds, e.g. until the next time you are CCd. This makes it a genuine alternative to RAT and all other skills that only give 2 to 4 seconds of immunity. Intentional or something else that ZOS overlooked? IMO it could find itself permanently onto some CP PvP skill bars, not just group players and not even just stam players.

Lylith

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Using Rapids in PvE to give oneself the Major Expedition buff to navigate the overworld or delves on foot faster was extremely useful as a tool. It was balanced because you couldn't attack with it active or you'd lose the buff. People use this skill extensively in PvE for questing and you're not giving us another tool to compensate for it. Rapids is not unbalanced in PvP so there's no reason to remove because of that, either. Please revert this change.

there was no reason to 'adjust' it before, either, but there it is.

another fix to something what was never broken.

albesca

Feric51 wrote: »

I would be curious to know how many people used rapids for the major expedition rather than the major gallop? I mount up, cast rapids, and ride off into the sunset, which will now be cheaper!

I don't use rapids myself, but when harvesting mats you're usually better off staying on foot, rather than mounting, riding for two seconds at most, dismounting and harvesting node over and over

Recremen

I guess they wanted to bring back rapids spam in PvP?

Feric51

albesca wrote: »

Feric51 wrote: »

I would be curious to know how many people used rapids for the major expedition rather than the major gallop? I mount up, cast rapids, and ride off into the sunset, which will now be cheaper!

I don't use rapids myself, but when harvesting mats you're usually better off staying on foot, rather than mounting, riding for two seconds at most, dismounting and harvesting node over and over

That's true enough, but maybe because I'm on console I found 100% uptime on major expedition made harvesting a little harder as I tended to overrun the nodes and it made targeting difficult with the controller. I much prefer Coward's Gear because the major expedition is only in effect while sprinting, allowing me to drop a normal walking pace as I near the node and be able to interact with it easier.

Granted this is probably not a problem on PC where you could point and click with the mouse and hit the node with better certainty, but with a controller I can't tell you the number of times I've jumped 2-3 times at some nodes with major expedition up causing my movements to be exaggerated.

But, I do agree with you on the usefulness of staying on foot for harvesting rather than mounting.

dotme

It's a crazy change for anyone who's ever been stuck in combat in Cyrodiil (unable to mount for 5+ minutes after a fight ends) and, as was mentioned in another thread, scroll runners.

This is one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" things that just makes me shake my head. I don't know what they're thinking.

jadarock

Tsukiino wrote: »

Do you know what the longest lasting Major Expedition is gonna be next patch if this stays? Channeled Acceleration.

Its not p2w but it certainly is pay for an advantage at that point....

Mattock_Romulus

It costs 20k now to get 24 seconds of major expedition...huge cost increase and very annoying for pve non-mount areas.

Jaraal

Tsukiino wrote: »

It's a dumb change. They're been reducing duration on Major Expedition on a lot of sources lately.

Chains (DK), Expedition Pots, and now ... Rapids, of all things. Who complained about this?

They stated in the Nerfmire patch notes that some players were having difficulty targeting fast players after they introduced Swift with Summerset. So they slowed down Swift, cut the ME armor sets from 20 to 8 seconds, and cut speed pots to less than 1/3 duration. And they've been paring ME from skills ever since.

I'm frankly surprised this didn't happen sooner. They've been trying to slow us down in Cyro to reduce server lag by minimizing calculations. The lag is why players couldn't target. So instead of fixing the root cause, they are trying to remove the symptoms.

DreadDaedroth

It seems they enjoy making things slower and more boring.

MLGProPlayer

ZOS nerfing overland questers and node farmers too now.

Please bring back Wrobel. I'm serious. Matt, please go see if he wants to come back. Wheeler is in way over his head in this role.

Veesk

I hopped onto the PTS yesterday and the change to Rapids and the major expedition buff sucks. I normally like to explore new houses and such but not having that 30 seconds of major expedition sucked the fun out of running around on foot in notable homes. It just takes too long to get anywhere since my magicka main and alts can’t constantly recast.

This impacts doing writs, harvesting, Dark Brotherhood and Theives guild activies, legerdemain too, traversing notable homes, going through delves, skyshard hunting (especially in delves) and just overall enjoyment of simple things in game.

It makes everything feel sluggish and slow. I really hope they don’t go through with this change.

Ivan04

Yeah, I keep thinking about it too, as I run around wil my low level characters that don't have mount upgrades yet. The new change will make me lose a significant portion of my time riding on a horse that's slower than my running speed.

XenoAlbedo

Why? Because somehow people who can't understand basic game design keep getting hired.
Their thought process is a cosmic horror, entirely and utterly incomprehensible, and attempting to understand it will just make you go insane yourself.

OmniDo

Just use Cowards with Darkstride or Prisoners.
Speed problems solved.

Jaraal

OmniDo wrote: »

Just use Cowards with Darkstride or Prisoners.
Speed problems solved.

But who wants to change all their clothes every time they decide to hoof it for a minute? Might as well leave your fighting gear on and walk slowly, it will take the same amount of time.

MLGProPlayer

Classic ZOS nerf.

MLGProPlayer

Jaraal wrote: »

OmniDo wrote: »

Just use Cowards with Darkstride or Prisoners.
Speed problems solved.

But who wants to change all their clothes every time they decide to hoof it for a minute? Might as well leave your fighting gear on and walk slowly, it will take the same amount of time.

This.

Even though we have add-ons on PC to quickly change gear, we still need to carry that gear around in our inventory.

And it's a nightmare on console where they need to manually change each piece of gear.

EatYourVegetables

This is easily the worst change for me in this patch. I don't like using mounts and I have an RS injury so I can't hold down the sprint buttons for long, so I use this to get an acceptable movement speed in PvE. Literally have it it perma-slotted on all of my toons and get it as soon as it is available (level 10).

Oh well, was thinking about re-subbing to ESO, but not now.

Jaraal

Tried this out on the test server, it's every bit as bad as it sounds. Yet another buff to PvP (ability to use skills during 8 seconds of speed) at the expense of PvE (inability to travel very far without running out of stamina.)


What a joke!

Kesstryl

This along with the nerfs to PVE tanking (cost increases to abilities on my DK, nerf to clanfear burst heal on my sorc tank, cost increase on chains, nerfs to S&B) and healing (orbs nerf and healing springs nerf) are making me seriously consider taking a break from the game for awhile and trying something else. This is getting boring, slow, and harder. No one pays for a game to go backwards in progression. We've been going backwards for years now, and I'm sick of my toons getting nerf after nerf. I'm feeling really done. I have carpal tunnel and rapids helped alot with little things like new toon slow mount speed and getting around in notable homes.

Firstmep

Skooma smuggler still going strong.

Lilly_Elessa

OH GOOD! Someone else brought this up. I was meaning to, because this change isn't meaningful.... It's just a slap in the face for enjoying overland content.

Anyone who says "Just mount up!" - You've clearly not run around questing enough. (Or possibly any at all.) There are tons of places that you get randomly dismounted (and not just running into caves), and you constantly hop on and off your mount for the "candy" scattered around (crafting mats, chests, etc) to the point where it's almost not worth mounting up.

I was pissed at the Major Expedition overhaul a year or so ago. Rapids was our bastion holding out to make the world content better. And now it's being wrecked too. And most of the most casual players who enjoy/need this skill the most will definitely not be popping into here to protest this, or at least not until after it's hit live. And by then it's too late, they're already screwed.

Vercingetorix

Lilly_Elessa wrote: »

OH GOOD! Someone else brought this up. I was meaning to, because this change isn't meaningful.... It's just a slap in the face for enjoying overland content.

Anyone who says "Just mount up!" - You've clearly not run around questing enough. (Or possibly any at all.) There are tons of places that you get randomly dismounted (and not just running into caves), and you constantly hop on and off your mount for the "candy" scattered around (crafting mats, chests, etc) to the point where it's almost not worth mounting up.

I was pissed at the Major Expedition overhaul a year or so ago. Rapids was our bastion holding out to make the world content better. And now it's being wrecked too. And most of the most casual players who enjoy/need this skill the most will definitely not be popping into here to protest this, or at least not until after it's hit live. And by then it's too late, they're already screwed.

Continue to make noise about it. I just tagged Gina and Brian - hopefully they will see this. Do not go quiet about this change or it will stick. Questing will be VERY miserable if this change goes live.

Vercingetorix

Kesstryl wrote: »

This along with the nerfs to PVE tanking (cost increases to abilities on my DK, nerf to clanfear burst heal on my sorc tank, cost increase on chains, nerfs to S&B) and healing (orbs nerf and healing springs nerf) are making me seriously consider taking a break from the game for awhile and trying something else. This is getting boring, slow, and harder. No one pays for a game to go backwards in progression. We've been going backwards for years now, and I'm sick of my toons getting nerf after nerf. I'm feeling really done. I have carpal tunnel and rapids helped alot with little things like new toon slow mount speed and getting around in notable homes.

I feel your pain, man. The excessive clinking or button mashing to sprint everywhere is TERRIBLE, all so I can move around the map and not take all night doing it. I NEED to be able to cast Rapids to navigate the map - the folks claiming I should just use Expedition buff sets fail to realize the significant loss in DPS. I can't be expected to run sets like that in trials or vet dungeons AND simultaneously be expected by groups to pull my DPS weight - that's just unreasonable.

Veesk

I have been thinking about this and while I know there is an excuse about how it previously was the longest source of major expedition (even though if you attack anyone you lose it for rapids)... does seem like poor timing that they want to lower the buff to 8 seconds after you can now purchase skyshard skillpoints, and will be able to buy skill lines including Psijic in a future update which will have a longer source of major expedition if this goes live.

This will just be a blow to quality of life in game if it goes live. If it’s actually an over preforming issue in PvP why not just limit the buff to 8 seconds in PvP zones/instances and leave it be elsewhere?