Rapid Maneuver nerf - PVE quality of life impact for sake of PVP

fastolfv_ESO

when theres a skillin called trials or dungeons sure balance it only for pve, hell balance undaunted tree only over pve but alliance war is built for pvp

Uryel

"Rapid Maneuver nerf - PVE quality of life impact for sake of PVP"

Let me fix that for you : "Rapid Maneuver nerf - PVE quality of life impact for sake of PVP, as usual, so why am I even surprised ?"

There. Ye who enters here, abandon all hope.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

not an issue to me, dont farm nodes or use in pvp

Hotdog_23

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

pve quality of life impact for the sake of pvp could basically be the title of every update....

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

pve quality of life impact for the sake of pvp could basically be the title of every update....

^ This.

In fact it's pretty much the entire mission statement for the whole game.

All The Best

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

I agree this change sucks 😔 for pve. A simple fix would allow one morph to affect a group for 8 seconds running and 30 seconds riding and the other morph only affected the player and keep it at 30 seconds for both.

Looks like most everyone in this thread forgot that Rapids is a PvP skill in a PvP skill line (Alliance War - Assault).

Warhorn, Caltrops and Vigor is also in the assault PVP skill line so those should not be used in PVE either. GOT IT

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Dreyloch wrote: »

The deeper question I have regarding this change is for PvP. We JUST went thru a whole big ordeal about making players slower so we can hit them.

Oh, I thought PvP was supposed to be about skill, reflexes, that kind of thing.

Apparently its about clubbing the guy moving like a snail.

LMAO


All The Best

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Mattock_Romulus wrote: »

If PVP players would stick to complaining about PVP only skills that would prevent 90% of the PVE nerfs.

Please share your in-game data statistics that shows 90% of past PvE nerfs were directly correlated to PvP combat and gameplay.

Well, unless I'm mistaken the PvE NPC's don't whine when they get beat-down.


All The Best

Kadoin

JamieAubrey wrote: »

Lets just hope this adds to getting account wide horse upgrades since low level toons are gutted with this

Not without a fee

WuffyCerulei

I mean there’s a set that gives you Major expedition when you sprint, as well as just spamming it. Tbh most pvpers just use Rapids for Major Gallop, as Cyrodiil is Horse Simulator 3000. Think they were just trying tone down 20 seconds of Major Expedition.

danara

I am a pve boy, but this skill dude is not desgned for you to harvest.

It is suppose to travel fast from a point A to B with huge distance. Between 2 harvest point what do you have ? 25 meters ?

Dude just craft speed potion and that s it...

danara

@Hotdog_23 you forgot the purge :')

BigBragg

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Mattock_Romulus wrote: »

If PVP players would stick to complaining about PVP only skills that would prevent 90% of the PVE nerfs.

Please share your in-game data statistics that shows 90% of past PvE nerfs were directly correlated to PvP combat and gameplay.

Well, unless I'm mistaken the PvE NPC's don't whine when they get beat-down.


All The Best

If whining drove devs decision making, don't you think we would have stable game performance by now?

markulrich1966

they also should fix bugs then, that force us to use rapid movement.

In Rimmen, when you ride from the daily questfivers (Nsuzi) to the stablemaster, and then to the crafting area (just across the place), you get TWO loadscreens. As loadscreens in elsweyr are bugged, this sometimes results in a gamefreeze (xbox).

You can workaround by running instead of riding. Then you have no loadscreens. But magicka based characters can't run long, so rapid manoever is the solution. Reduced to 10 sec, another handicap that adds up to the frustration already caused by the many bugs.

Kadoin

BigBragg wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Mattock_Romulus wrote: »

If PVP players would stick to complaining about PVP only skills that would prevent 90% of the PVE nerfs.

Please share your in-game data statistics that shows 90% of past PvE nerfs were directly correlated to PvP combat and gameplay.

Well, unless I'm mistaken the PvE NPC's don't whine when they get beat-down.


All The Best

If whining drove devs decision making, don't you think we would have stable game performance by now?

You don't get it, players like that feel they deserve to win every time and never lose. Exactly the type of toxicity they accuse anyone that PvPs of, which I find funny

I mean, its not like people solo and duo HM dungeons because of broken balancing...

WoppaBoem

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Mattock_Romulus wrote: »

If PVP players would stick to complaining about PVP only skills that would prevent 90% of the PVE nerfs.

Please share your in-game data statistics that shows 90% of past PvE nerfs were directly correlated to PvP combat and gameplay.

Dont try to stick on the 90% number. I play PVP now for a year after 1.5 year before PVE only. Many and yes many regardless of the number of changes are done around PVP. Its very clear and for me as PVP player justified. Its easier to adjust to PVE content then to battle broken *** in PVP which don't have counter or are clearly over powered.

I agree with OP, this sucks for my farming master crafter. Will have to invest in Cowards gear now.

therift

Mattock_Romulus wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

pve quality of life impact for the sake of pvp could basically be the title of every update....

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

pve quality of life impact for the sake of pvp could basically be the title of every update....

^ This.

In fact it's pretty much the entire mission statement for the whole game.

All The Best

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

I agree this change sucks 😔 for pve. A simple fix would allow one morph to affect a group for 8 seconds running and 30 seconds riding and the other morph only affected the player and keep it at 30 seconds for both.

Looks like most everyone in this thread forgot that Rapids is a PvP skill in a PvP skill line (Alliance War - Assault).

If PVP players would stick to complaining about PVP only skills that would prevent 90% of the PVE nerfs.

If a skill or set is overtuned or broken in PvP, it's overtuned or broken in PvE.

Rakkat can't post a thread on the Forum to complain that 100k dps parses means he's dead on the third pad.

PvP is build vs build. It's the ultimate testing ground for player performance envelopes.

PvE is build vs Spreadsheet. The Spreadsheet is easily adjusted to fit the baseline set by PvP.

I agree some skills should perform differently against players than the spreadsheet, if only for the sake of balance and fairness in PvP.


But every time and everywhere, PvE should play second fiddle to PvP.

Tatanko

Jacozilla wrote: »

1. When harvesting, not just stop from your horse ride to gather 1 item, but actual 'I'm going to harvest for 5min, 50min, whatever period', you are running on foot - with rapids. After this nerf, yes, can spam rapids over and over assuming you have the stamina regen for it, but either way it's a QoL hit ( constant spam assuming you have the stam, or don't have the stam and have to wait between re-casts)

BuildMan wrote: »

If you are farming nodes wouldn't darkstride + cowards be the best gear?

As @BuildMan pointed out, your problem is easily overcome with the right equipment loadout. In fact, using the right equipment is a lot easier than casting Rapid Maneuver (even at 30 seconds vs. 8 seconds) and doesn't consume any resources, leaving you more stamina to do the actual running/sprinting.

Personally I use 7 pieces of medium in Fiord's+Jailbreaker+Agility, with all of my jewelry traited to swift. I walk faster than most people run, and I run faster than most people ride, with the ability to run at full sprint for probably close to a minute without stopping.

Vercingetorix

I mentioned this in the PTS forum yesterday. Doesn't seem like a lot of people care on the PTS. Maybe you need to be more vocal about it over there:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484056/rapid-maneuver-change-why#latest

TumlinTheJolly

Just use a major exp spell that costs mag instead of stam, like RAT. Problem solved.

Jacozilla

TumlinTheJolly wrote: »

Just use a major exp spell that costs mag instead of stam, like RAT. Problem solved.

RAT - race against time isn't a solution - ranged mag can't use RAT when channeled accel morph is the meta minor force option.

I can't and won't speak for anyone else that doesn't like this change, just for myself. As noted in my OP, I specifically said:
a) it's not end of world so no hyperbole or other exaggerated reaction

b) mentioned ways to adapt exist, so it's not a case of 'problem solved' or not.

I solely reserved my comments to this is a QoL - quality of life pain or additional burden for NO need. There is no balancing of PVE that is too OP or whatever from former 30sec major expedition.

Just because one can run different sets, harvest builds, etc, doesn't change the statement that formerly we had a very nice, QoL skill that was cast on long duration timer, vs constant spam 8 sec new timer (whether it is from new rapids or other much shorter major expedition skills)

A lot of ppl are conflating the different adapt solutions to mean somehow QoL pain is solved, it does not. It means we have a less QoL method that yields an inferior version of what we just had, in order to solve precisely nothing re: balance in PVE. Also as noted in my OP though, I do think PVP deserves adjustments - the problem as so many cite though is ZOS does a poor job at impacting one for the other instead of balancing separately.

Vercingetorix

Tatanko wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

1. When harvesting, not just stop from your horse ride to gather 1 item, but actual 'I'm going to harvest for 5min, 50min, whatever period', you are running on foot - with rapids. After this nerf, yes, can spam rapids over and over assuming you have the stamina regen for it, but either way it's a QoL hit ( constant spam assuming you have the stam, or don't have the stam and have to wait between re-casts)

BuildMan wrote: »

If you are farming nodes wouldn't darkstride + cowards be the best gear?

As @BuildMan pointed out, your problem is easily overcome with the right equipment loadout. In fact, using the right equipment is a lot easier than casting Rapid Maneuver (even at 30 seconds vs. 8 seconds) and doesn't consume any resources, leaving you more stamina to do the actual running/sprinting.

Personally I use 7 pieces of medium in Fiord's+Jailbreaker+Agility, with all of my jewelry traited to swift. I walk faster than most people run, and I run faster than most people ride, with the ability to run at full sprint for probably close to a minute without stopping.

Just how exactly is that setup supposed to be useful for a magicka character questing in the overworld? Rapids is a universal skill that anyone can use and has extremely limited applications in combat - it doesn't need to be touched because it is a NON-COMBAT UTILITY.

Lylith

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

I agree this change sucks 😔 for pve. A simple fix would allow one morph to affect a group for 8 seconds running and 30 seconds riding and the other morph only affected the player and keep it at 30 seconds for both.

but that would be simple, sensible, not nearly convoluted enough.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

BigBragg wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Mattock_Romulus wrote: »

If PVP players would stick to complaining about PVP only skills that would prevent 90% of the PVE nerfs.

Please share your in-game data statistics that shows 90% of past PvE nerfs were directly correlated to PvP combat and gameplay.

Well, unless I'm mistaken the PvE NPC's don't whine when they get beat-down.


All The Best

If whining drove devs decision making, don't you think we would have stable game performance by now?

That assumes they are a) capable of delivering such, and b) willing to invest appropriately to do so.

Devs may want to deliver stable game performance, Bean Counter Says No.

However, we already know they are willing and able to Nerf - just about everything, if anyone whines about - that has been the ENTIRE history of "combat balancing" in this game.

All The Best

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Kadoin wrote: »

I mean, its not like people solo and duo HM dungeons because of broken balancing...

SOME people do, lots of players have never managed it.

You can't build a game based on the performance of the statistical outliers.

I've never yet, not once in a decade of playing MMORPGs, met a PvPer who didn't complain about something, almost every time they die - it's the main reason i quit PvP. Once enough of those complaints make it to game fora something gets done.

Because twiddling with Skills is a LOT cheaper than New Content, and Better Hardware.


All The Best

Tatanko

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Just how exactly is that setup supposed to be useful for a magicka character questing in the overworld? Rapids is a universal skill that anyone can use and has extremely limited applications in combat - it doesn't need to be touched because it is a NON-COMBAT UTILITY.

When you choose to make a magicka-focused character, you accept that your pool of stamina will be limited. That's true now and it will be true after the update. Why do you need constant Major Expedition for overworld questing in the first place? Major Gallop, fine... but are you really casting RM every 30 seconds while questing on foot? Seriously?

BigBragg

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Mattock_Romulus wrote: »

If PVP players would stick to complaining about PVP only skills that would prevent 90% of the PVE nerfs.

Please share your in-game data statistics that shows 90% of past PvE nerfs were directly correlated to PvP combat and gameplay.

Well, unless I'm mistaken the PvE NPC's don't whine when they get beat-down.


All The Best

If whining drove devs decision making, don't you think we would have stable game performance by now?

That assumes they are a) capable of delivering such, and b) willing to invest appropriately to do so.

Devs may want to deliver stable game performance, Bean Counter Says No.

However, we already know they are willing and able to Nerf - just about everything, if anyone whines about - that has been the ENTIRE history of "combat balancing" in this game.

All The Best

Dev note say on average historically say otherwise. Most frequently citing over or under performance in PvE. I encourage people to give them a read, instead of spreading this false blame PvP vitriol.

Bryath

Tatanko wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Just how exactly is that setup supposed to be useful for a magicka character questing in the overworld? Rapids is a universal skill that anyone can use and has extremely limited applications in combat - it doesn't need to be touched because it is a NON-COMBAT UTILITY.

When you choose to make a magicka-focused character, you accept that your pool of stamina will be limited. That's true now and it will be true after the update. Why do you need constant Major Expedition for overworld questing in the first place? Major Gallop, fine... but are you really casting RM every 30 seconds while questing on foot? Seriously?

That's the way I like to do it sometimes, that way I can gather and quest at the same time. This is the only change in the PTS that I really don't like the looks of, but meh, I'll just get used to running slowly again. At least I won't have to worry about switching out RM for another skill when I decide to hit a WB or whatever.