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Rapid Maneuver nerf - PVE quality of life impact for sake of PVP
Jacozilla
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1st - I'm waiting to see how all the dps, heals, tank, old-new sets, etc stuff is adapted to by the community (as we always do) before freaking out. I think that is fair and pretty moderate stance.
2nd - I dislike change for sake of change (usual ZOS massive changes every 6 months routine) but again can adapt to things so not crying world is ending, quitting, etc.
That said, one item that needs no further digesting or 'figuring out' jumped out at me - the Rapid Maneuvers nerf for PVE --> Major Expedition got reduced to 8 sec from 30 sec. Yes, Major Gallop is still 30 sec so riding from A to B on horse is still fine.
They also made it so buff isn't lost from casting skills or dmg, so basically it's massive reduction to timer for buff of mobility under combat (e.g. PVP)
But what about all the other quality of life impacts from PVE perspective?
1. When harvesting, not just stop from your horse ride to gather 1 item, but actual 'I'm going to harvest for 5min, 50min, whatever period', you are running on foot - with rapids. After this nerf, yes, can spam rapids over and over assuming you have the stamina regen for it, but either way it's a QoL hit ( constant spam assuming you have the stam, or don't have the stam and have to wait between re-casts)
2. Questing - there are many areas, underground - mini lairs - etc - that major gallop won't be available for. So again, another mobility during PVE nerf.
I won't go on to list more scenarios, nor pretend this is world ending - because it is NOT. What it is, however, is a unnecessary nerf to quality of life in PVE.
Don't want this thread to be about debate of other changes, so all I'll say is you can reasonably debate either side like was over-healing too much and is 1 orb / springs reasonable adjustment. But in those cases, the key word there is 'reasonable' - whether you like or dislike the change, an objective person can see the rationale of what is being balanced (or attempted) there.
For this Rapid Maneuvers nerf to PVE, unless you take the rediculous stance that Major Expedition for 30 sec in PVE was massively over-powered, there is nothing being balanced here, just unnesscessary QoL hit to PVE for sake of adjusting to PVP.
And no, I'm not saying PVP shouldn't be tweaked for this either - they deserve reasonable changes and I PVP decent amount too - what I'm suggesting is ZOS should find a way to reduce rapid maneuvers duration while granting immunity from buff loss while casting skills/dmg AND leave PVE duration alone. Period.
2nd - I dislike change for sake of change (usual ZOS massive changes every 6 months routine) but again can adapt to things so not crying world is ending, quitting, etc.
That said, one item that needs no further digesting or 'figuring out' jumped out at me - the Rapid Maneuvers nerf for PVE --> Major Expedition got reduced to 8 sec from 30 sec. Yes, Major Gallop is still 30 sec so riding from A to B on horse is still fine.
They also made it so buff isn't lost from casting skills or dmg, so basically it's massive reduction to timer for buff of mobility under combat (e.g. PVP)
But what about all the other quality of life impacts from PVE perspective?
1. When harvesting, not just stop from your horse ride to gather 1 item, but actual 'I'm going to harvest for 5min, 50min, whatever period', you are running on foot - with rapids. After this nerf, yes, can spam rapids over and over assuming you have the stamina regen for it, but either way it's a QoL hit ( constant spam assuming you have the stam, or don't have the stam and have to wait between re-casts)
2. Questing - there are many areas, underground - mini lairs - etc - that major gallop won't be available for. So again, another mobility during PVE nerf.
I won't go on to list more scenarios, nor pretend this is world ending - because it is NOT. What it is, however, is a unnecessary nerf to quality of life in PVE.
Don't want this thread to be about debate of other changes, so all I'll say is you can reasonably debate either side like was over-healing too much and is 1 orb / springs reasonable adjustment. But in those cases, the key word there is 'reasonable' - whether you like or dislike the change, an objective person can see the rationale of what is being balanced (or attempted) there.
For this Rapid Maneuvers nerf to PVE, unless you take the rediculous stance that Major Expedition for 30 sec in PVE was massively over-powered, there is nothing being balanced here, just unnesscessary QoL hit to PVE for sake of adjusting to PVP.
And no, I'm not saying PVP shouldn't be tweaked for this either - they deserve reasonable changes and I PVP decent amount too - what I'm suggesting is ZOS should find a way to reduce rapid maneuvers duration while granting immunity from buff loss while casting skills/dmg AND leave PVE duration alone. Period.
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Deep_01✭✭✭✭They wanted us to spend more resources to use major expedition, no matter what (farming nodes or doing vet speedrun). Also, we can now keep the speed buff in dungeons even when attacking adds/mobs, if you decide to spend resources on it.Edited by Deep_01 on July 7, 2019 9:11AM@Deepan on PC-EU1 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭They wanted us to spend more resources to use major expedition, no matter what (farming nodes or doing vet speedrun). Also, we can now keep the speed buff in dungeons even when attacking adds/mobs, if you decide to spend resources on it.
And I would be just fine with this - what you said above if that was the intention and the actual resolution. But it is not.
Instead of raising cost by X but leave duration 30 sec, it's just another QoL hit.
As I said in OP, I've conceded we can re-cast it (using more resources as you said) - but that's the point, it's not doing anything but mindless recast adding nothing but QoL pain. Bottom line is we're going from a nice skill that could be ignored for awhile during non-combat intensive activities like harvest or questing, to a 'rotation' we need to do.
Yep, break out your harvest / quest rotation..../sarcasm
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Nemesis7884✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭pve quality of life impact for the sake of pvp could basically be the title of every update....23 -
Hurbster✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Same old stuff, different skill.So they raised the floor and lowered the ceiling. Except the ceiling has spikes in it now and the floor is also lava.3 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I never used rapids for harvesting runs. When picking flowers, it is much more convenient (for me) to simply equip a bow, medium armor, and use dodgeroll+sprint to get from node to node.4 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭I never used rapids for harvesting runs. When picking flowers, it is much more convenient (for me) to simply equip a bow, medium armor, and use dodgeroll+sprint to get from node to node.
And this may very well be one of the ways we adapt to, that you were an early adopter of. But that wasn't my OP or issue for commenting.
I'm not saying there isn't counter styles to adjust to this - I'm simply saying it's a quality of life whack that needed no mole to crush. It's whack-a-mole with no mole. It's QoL pain that has no disease being cured.
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lookstwice✭✭✭man this change might be the one that breaks the camels back for me. definitely don't like the money grabbing for maxing out skill lines and not even having a way to do that faster in game the second time around.
last time i quit was sometime before morrowind i believe and it was for the sneak speed stacking being "fixed". i know it was probably because it was unfair in pvp, but my highest alliance level is 7 or 8 so i'm not big into pvp. i liked the QOL it offered doing all my crafting writs on my characters.
i came back what 3 years later and not more than 3 months something else that is convenient is gone. i got some luck.3 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »pve quality of life impact for the sake of pvp could basically be the title of every update....
^ This.
In fact it's pretty much the entire mission statement for the whole game.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.3 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I agree this change sucks 😔 for pve. A simple fix would allow one morph to affect a group for 8 seconds running and 30 seconds riding and the other morph only affected the player and keep it at 30 seconds for both.1 -
DreadDaedroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭They like to make things more boring and slower and flat in zos.
I.e: S/B,wings, rapid...3 -
Dreyloch✭✭✭✭✭The deeper question I have regarding this change is for PvP. We JUST went thru a whole big ordeal about making players slower so we can hit them. NOW, they're making rapids somewhat spamable and wont fall off? I just do NOT understand it. Let alone the implications of having rapids spammers in ball groups again. /shakes head totally bewildered....
Edited by Dreyloch on July 7, 2019 10:15PM"The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"4 -
Casul✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you are farming nodes wouldn't darkstride + cowards be the best gear?PvP needs more love.0 -
lookstwice✭✭✭Also going to suck if you own one of the large/manor homes. So now you will be either spamming rapids? Or will have to always have a set of gear to go fast.
Of course screw your lower level alts or find the lower level version of that gear for them. I know any house stuff would rather have one my lower level alts deal with it.
Maybe just allow mounts in these houses then.
I just want that hot nasty speed for my mundane activities that don't effect others.
Or how about this? I know in WOW, I forget the city name, but it was in panda land, you had an automatic 175% speed boost at all times since mounts weren't allowed inside.....nvm not taking into consideration the justice system gameplay. Argh!!!1 -
Runefang✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RIP vet HM speed runs, how are we going to shave seconds off our clear times without 30 seconds of major expedition??1 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭gonna redo my runner so I dont use rapid maneuver at all when harvesting resources, 8 sec is too little. But can get max speed without skills.0 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The deeper question I have regarding this change is for PvP. We JUST went thru a whole big ordeal about making players slower so we can hit them. NOW, they're making rapids somewhat spamable and wont fall off? I just do NOT understand it. Let alone the implications of having rapids spammers in ball groups again. /shakes head totally bewildered....
When will you lot all learn. These changes aren't about "balancing" things. They're all about changing things for the sake of change, so people will keep playing and chasing the meta, like putting a carrot in front of a dumb donkey who'll wander forward in the vain hope one day he'll actually manage to eat that sweet, juicy carrot.
It's either that, or the team at zos are idiots, and they're not idiots. Never seen a programmer yet who didn;t have 100 tools at his disposal, often self written for amusement, to analyse data. They know what all their changes/armor sets do, and how they work with each other. They know exactly what they are doing. Carrots....
So, who's the donkey?3 -
JamieAubrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lets just hope this adds to getting account wide horse upgrades since low level toons are gutted with this2 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Outside of One Tamriel, they don't make balances changes with overland content in mind. By and large, that is because it is super easy. The changes brought it in line with other sources. That is the goal of this ongoing balance iteration. Before they wanted to raise the floor and lower the ceiling, perhaps one year they will want everybody to go fast so Ricky Bobby can have fun too.0 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭That said, one item that needs no further digesting or 'figuring out' jumped out at me - the Rapid Maneuvers nerf for PVE --> Major Expedition got reduced to 8 sec from 30 sec. Yes, Major Gallop is still 30 sec so riding from A to B on horse is still fine.
I wonder if this is because they are tired of people stealing all the nodes all the time AND doing so while evading the mobs by basically running out of their aggro radius before they fully aggro.
Might be an anti-bot move?0 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭Outside of One Tamriel, they don't make balances changes with overland content in mind. By and large, that is because it is super easy. The changes brought it in line with other sources. That is the goal of this ongoing balance iteration. Before they wanted to raise the floor and lower the ceiling, perhaps one year they will want everybody to go fast so Ricky Bobby can have fun too.
Wrong. It is painfully obvious why Zos made the change - PVP. It's also irrelevant whether overland is easy or not - the impact from this change isn't less painful for PVE quality of life because overland is 'easy' or super easy or whatever. It's just as stated in my OP another needless hassle. Not end of the world, or other hyperbole - just more hassle for no reason in PVE.
PVP you can justify it. PVE you cannot.
The skill was modified such that casting skills or dmg no longer removes the buff, hence 30 seconds duration would be too strong for PVP, hence the nerf. (And why major gallop was left at 30 sec, if the logic you hypothesize was true, then major gallop would also have been reduced to be 'consistent' with mobility timers)
For PVE, it was whack-a-mole without the mole, simple by product of PVP balance dictating PVE quality of life reduction.Edited by Jacozilla on July 9, 2019 2:51AM1 -
fastolfv_ESO✭✭✭✭✭guy you do know rappids is under the alliance war skills right? if your complaining a pvp skill is being changed to adjust the pvp meta your nuts6 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »pve quality of life impact for the sake of pvp could basically be the title of every update....Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »pve quality of life impact for the sake of pvp could basically be the title of every update....
^ This.
In fact it's pretty much the entire mission statement for the whole game.
All The BestI agree this change sucks 😔 for pve. A simple fix would allow one morph to affect a group for 8 seconds running and 30 seconds riding and the other morph only affected the player and keep it at 30 seconds for both.
Looks like most everyone in this thread forgot that Rapids is a PvP skill in a PvP skill line (Alliance War - Assault).6 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭fastolfv_ESO wrote: »guy you do know rappids is under the alliance war skills right? if your complaining a pvp skill is being changed to adjust the pvp meta your nuts
By this logic, then everything outside the 'Alliance' war skills would then be PVE and immune from any change that didn't have PVE balance as the sole and primary consideration.
So awesome, thanks for confirming this position. I'll put down my gun when you put down yours, so to speak. Will happily trade this and any/all Alliance war skills forever to PVP related changes the moment every other non=Alliance skill reverts back to PVE only.
Obviously, as shown by ZOS many, many times - where a skill is categorized under has zero relation to which balancing mode they justify the change on.8 -
Mattock_Romulus✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »pve quality of life impact for the sake of pvp could basically be the title of every update....Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »pve quality of life impact for the sake of pvp could basically be the title of every update....
^ This.
In fact it's pretty much the entire mission statement for the whole game.
All The BestI agree this change sucks 😔 for pve. A simple fix would allow one morph to affect a group for 8 seconds running and 30 seconds riding and the other morph only affected the player and keep it at 30 seconds for both.
Looks like most everyone in this thread forgot that Rapids is a PvP skill in a PvP skill line (Alliance War - Assault).
If PVP players would stick to complaining about PVP only skills that would prevent 90% of the PVE nerfs.7 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Mattock_Romulus wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »pve quality of life impact for the sake of pvp could basically be the title of every update....Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »Nemesis7884 wrote: »pve quality of life impact for the sake of pvp could basically be the title of every update....
^ This.
In fact it's pretty much the entire mission statement for the whole game.
All The BestI agree this change sucks 😔 for pve. A simple fix would allow one morph to affect a group for 8 seconds running and 30 seconds riding and the other morph only affected the player and keep it at 30 seconds for both.
Looks like most everyone in this thread forgot that Rapids is a PvP skill in a PvP skill line (Alliance War - Assault).
If PVP players would stick to complaining about PVP only skills that would prevent 90% of the PVE nerfs.
Source? That's not what the dev notes say.1 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mattock_Romulus wrote: »If PVP players would stick to complaining about PVP only skills that would prevent 90% of the PVE nerfs.
Please share your in-game data statistics that shows 90% of past PvE nerfs were directly correlated to PvP combat and gameplay.
Edited by Taleof2Cities on July 9, 2019 5:49AM2
