The State of Execute Abilities (and why Magicka DPS is in need of one)

Browiseth

Seraphayel wrote: »

Browiseth wrote: »

why does every class need to be the same?

Where am I asking for that?

Why does every class need a single target and an AoE ground DoT?

Why does every class need a self heal?

Why does every class need a CC ability?

Why does every class...

I don’t see how giving Magicka access to a single execute ability would decrease diversity (that doesn’t exist in this game at all).

as you said in your op, some classes already have built in execute abilities

why not just play those?

why not instead of an execute, the classes without them have something else to fill the gap to differentiate them?

i suppose it's just easier to point the finger and say "that class has a thing i don't have and i want it because it's good"

sly007

You know, stamina always had these executes but there was a time when stamina did less damage than magicka. The dps disparity has nothing to do with executes. This is more about gear and change of certain skills and or passive. The executes you mentioned have been consistent, even when stamina did less dps.

Wolfpaw

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Don't worry, the "one-handed and spell" weapon skill line will have an execute. I guarantee it.

Tease.

CambionDaemon

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Don't worry, the "one-handed and spell" weapon skill line will have an execute. I guarantee it.

Ah, the mythical 'one handed and spell' line. Shame they said it isn't going happen.

LukosCreyden

@CambionDaemon no they didn't. In fact, in the latest AUA, they said they were actually looking into it.

Varaug_Gaming

give the wardens insect dot an execute mechanic to make it similar to poison injection

CambionDaemon

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@CambionDaemon no they didn't. In fact, in the latest AUA, they said they were actually looking into it.

As I remember on that AMA, he said it is something that they are looking at BUT are not sure how to do it. And also remember that they said they were looking at it about 3 years ago as well.

Xvorg

Seraphayel wrote: »

I find it funny, Stamina and Magicka have the same playstyle because how this game is build: take all the strong DoTs (ST and AoE), a filler ability and self buffs and there you have every meta build.

But giving Magicka builds 1 (!) execute ability when Stamina has access to 3 (4) would make Magicka and Stamina too similar?

Executes matter, especially in PvP. There’s no reason and no proper explanation why Magicka builds don’t have access to at least one execute ability when there is Whirling Blades, Reverse Slash, Poison Injection and Slaughter for Stamina builds.

Though I play magicka specs, I disagree there. Magblade has Impale and Temp has JB and none of them is widely used.

The magic(ka) trick is not in an execute but in penetration (granted by a passive). From that point of view I doubt magicka needs a generic execute. On the other hand, Stam cannot build as much penetration as magicka, so executes are a necessary evil. Nevertheless, the problem in the case of stam are bleeds, how they bypass resistances and how they become executes in PvP with the right passives (DW).

IMHO the balance should go to bleeds paired with executes. No execute should bypass resistances.

Lord_Eomer

Change Destro Impulse skill to something else and grant execute bonus.

Impulse is trash at the moment!

Seraphayel

Dear @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler , Stamina builds are overperforming for a very long time in both PvP and PvE. The U23 adjustments won’t change this. That Magicka builds don’t access to an execute is one of the reason they’re underperforming in all parts of the game.

Are you aware of this issue and try to solve this problem by giving Magicka builds a proper execute ability outside of class skill lines (where only 3.5 classes have a real execute ability while Necromancer and Dragonknight are left out completely).

Savos_Saren

If ZOS gives DKs an execute- it needs to be tied to one of their purely magic-based abilities. Otherwise stam DKs can use it along with poison injection and executioner/S2W.

de_la_Dude

Its odd to me no one is talking about bloodthirsty.

3x Bloodthirsty is available to all build types and it makes all your skills execute abilities. Sure its not 300% more damage but 28%-30% extra for all your skills in an already strong rotation is prreetty good.

Its working great on my Templar, and even used the traits instead of the execute ability on my magblade last vMA run. I've done limited PvP with 3x bloodthirsty but it felt pretty strong there as well.

Maybe people who parse the numbers can tell me why I'm wrong, but my magicka builds don't feel lacking in this department.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

de_la_Dude wrote: »

Its odd to me no one is talking about bloodthirsty.

3x Bloodthirsty is available to all build types and it makes all your skills execute abilities. Sure its not 300% more damage but 28%-30% extra for all your skills in an already strong rotation is prreetty good.

Its working great on my Templar, and even used the traits instead of the execute ability on my magblade last vMA run. I've done limited PvP with 3x bloodthirsty but it felt pretty strong there as well.

Maybe people who parse the numbers can tell me why I'm wrong, but my magicka builds don't feel lacking in this department.

because bloodthirsty flavors executes even more. go run your build on the iron atro, with radiant oppression and without, you will get way more dps with the execute then without.

Seraphayel

de_la_Dude wrote: »

Its odd to me no one is talking about bloodthirsty.

3x Bloodthirsty is available to all build types and it makes all your skills execute abilities. Sure its not 300% more damage but 28%-30% extra for all your skills in an already strong rotation is prreetty good.

Its working great on my Templar, and even used the traits instead of the execute ability on my magblade last vMA run. I've done limited PvP with 3x bloodthirsty but it felt pretty strong there as well.

Maybe people who parse the numbers can tell me why I'm wrong, but my magicka builds don't feel lacking in this department.

As mentioned, it’s yet another layer of executes Stamina builds can lay on top of their plenty of other executes available.

If you look at the DPS parses, as I pointed out on the first page, you see how prominent of a damage source they are, especially for DW and Magicka Templars.

UntouchableHunter

Seraphayel wrote: »

This topic isn't new and well-known for quite some time now, it just needs to be brought up again because ZOS seems to be either ignorant or oblivious about this topic.
Execute abilities are an important factor in competitive gameplay. Not so much in PvE as they are in PvP but their importance even for competitive PvE DPS shouldn't be underestimated.
There are two types of execute abilities in the game, class-based and weapon-based executes. Overall there are three class related and three weapon related executes.

- Sorcerer: Mage's Fury (Magicka)
- Templar: Radiant Destruction (Magicka)
- Nightblade: Assassin's Blade (Impale: Magicka; Killer’s Blade: Stamina)
- Two Handed: Reverse Slash (Stamina)
- Dual Wield: Whirling Blades (Stamina) + Slaughter (Passive; 20% more damage with DW abilities on targets below 25% health)
- Bow: Poison Injection (Stamina)
(- Warden: Feral Guardian (Magicka & Stamina) - this Execute is barely useful, very situational and requires double slotting; don't really see a reason to take this into context when discussing "proper" execute abilities)

Of the 6 classes only 3 offer an execute ability – Dragon Knight, Warden and Necromancer lack a class based execute. Class executes are usually Magicka based (the Nightblade skill is the exception as it has a Stamina morph) whereas all available weapon executes are exclusively Stamina based. On top of that Stamina builds are able to benefit twice by execute abilities as one of them is a DoT you apply once every several seconds whereas you can spam the other execute while the DoT is ticking.

No Magicka build with a class based execute can do so and none of the other Magicka builds that overall lack accessibility to an execute ability can do it neither. This creates a “double gap” for several Magicka specs and is one of the reasons why Magicka DPS, especially Dragon Knight, Warden and Necromancer, is underperforming (and in case of the Warden, doing so since it’s release) and Stamina DPS in general is overperforming (for quite some time now).

To get better insights into PvE fights looking at ESO Logs is quite helpful to see what I am talking about. The top parsing specs all make excessive use of one or two execute abilities (with Sorcerers being the exception to the rule as neither Magicka nor Stamina Sorcerers seem to make excessive use of execute abilities).
When checking parses results are:

Poison Injection contributes to 5-10% overall damage
Reverse Slash contributes to 15-20% overall damage
Whirling Blades contributes to 10-15% overall damage
Radiant Destruction contributes to 10-15% overall damage
Impale contributes to 8-12% overall damage
(Feral Guardian contributes to 2-4% overall damage)

In the end this means Stamina builds usually make up 20-30% (Two Handed) or 15-25% (Dual Wield) of their overall damage via execute abilities. The only other competitive Magicka DPS builds that can compete are Templars where their execute is 10-15% overall damage. Magicka Nightblades at the moment are not competitive, their execute still contributes to 8-12% overall damage. As I said, Sorcerers generally don’t use executes at all and the strength of Magicka Sorceres at the moment comes almost solely due to the overperformance of their pets. Besides that no competitive DPS spec is not using execute abilities.

On top of all of that Dual Wield, next to having an (AoE) execute ability, it has a very mighty execute passive that increases damage with DW skills by 20% when the target is below 25% health. Magicka has nothing comparable to that.

Where Stamina DPS can make up almost one quarter of their overall damage via executes, Magicka DPS cannot. The classes that suffer the most by this circumstance are Dragon Knights, Wardens and Necromancers because they overall lack potency when it comes to Magicka DPS (which cannot solely be blamed on the lack of an execute ability though). When we’re checking overall DPS capabilities it becomes obvious that Magicka is nowhere near Stamina and the difference is in most cases a lot more than just 10%.

Possible solutions:

- Turn one of the Destructive Touch morphs into an equivalent of Poison Injection
- Add a Magicka execute to either the Psijik Order or the Mage’s Guild skill lines
- Give every class an execute ability

TL;DR:

I do not want Stamina executes to get nerfed or removed. I think they’re a positive contributing factor to the game. In the end Magicka must be brought in line when it comes to accessability of execute abilities. I do not request that Magicka DPS is going to outperform or even out with Stamina. I'm fine with Stamina being 5-10% ahead due to being melee (although in several boss fights ranged Magicka DPS is required to stand close to the melee camp).

Important note: I left out some passives that could be considered similar to executes (Amplitude from Sorcerers, Death Knell from Necromancers) because they barely play a role in this comparison.

We must bring this discussion up.

ZOS could make impulse execute in the main damage and not the ridiculous additional damage

idk

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

Yes. They also have to remove Sorcerer: Mage's Fury for obvious reasons. No double executes and catering for sorcs. They could turn the skill to somekind of poor tanking ability like they did on nightblades.

I don't think Sorcs would be spamming Mage's Wrath AND a destro staff execute. Enemies below 20% damage are going to be executed by one or the other. Spamming both wouldn't help. You don't see StamBlades spamming the 2H's Executioner and Impale, right? They choose one or the other.

This brings up a good point that demonstrates the idea of a weapon based execute for magicka is very troubling.

Further, the history of the game has demonstrated that the lack of access to an execute does not mean the class is weaker. Heck, some used to joke that a magicka DK started their execute at 100% because of how strong they once were.

The real issue is not being addressed and that is how Zos balances the game overall.

UntouchableHunter

idk wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

Yes. They also have to remove Sorcerer: Mage's Fury for obvious reasons. No double executes and catering for sorcs. They could turn the skill to somekind of poor tanking ability like they did on nightblades.

I don't think Sorcs would be spamming Mage's Wrath AND a destro staff execute. Enemies below 20% damage are going to be executed by one or the other. Spamming both wouldn't help. You don't see StamBlades spamming the 2H's Executioner and Impale, right? They choose one or the other.

This brings up a good point that demonstrates the idea of a weapon based execute for magicka is very troubling.

Further, the history of the game has demonstrated that the lack of access to an execute does not mean the class is weaker. Heck, some used to joke that a magicka DK started their execute at 100% because of how strong they once were.

The real issue is not being addressed and that is how Zos balances the game overall.

Why every Stam class run Executioner?
And can run poison injection at the same time?
In a long and good fight Stam NB can have 3 executes at same time.

The question is WHY THE MAG WEAPONS CAN'T HAVE EXECUTE??

This really doesn't make sense.

idk

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

Yes. They also have to remove Sorcerer: Mage's Fury for obvious reasons. No double executes and catering for sorcs. They could turn the skill to somekind of poor tanking ability like they did on nightblades.

I don't think Sorcs would be spamming Mage's Wrath AND a destro staff execute. Enemies below 20% damage are going to be executed by one or the other. Spamming both wouldn't help. You don't see StamBlades spamming the 2H's Executioner and Impale, right? They choose one or the other.

This brings up a good point that demonstrates the idea of a weapon based execute for magicka is very troubling.

Further, the history of the game has demonstrated that the lack of access to an execute does not mean the class is weaker. Heck, some used to joke that a magicka DK started their execute at 100% because of how strong they once were.

The real issue is not being addressed and that is how Zos balances the game overall.

Why every Stam class run Executioner?
And can run poison injection at the same time?
In a long and good fight Stam NB can have 3 executes at same time.

The question is WHY THE MAG WEAPONS CAN'T HAVE EXECUTE??

This really doesn't make sense.

Why did you not address the real issue I presented?

History demonstrates the accuracy of that issue very well. There have been times that magical DPS greatly outperformed stamina DPS.

Xvorg

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

Yes. They also have to remove Sorcerer: Mage's Fury for obvious reasons. No double executes and catering for sorcs. They could turn the skill to somekind of poor tanking ability like they did on nightblades.

I don't think Sorcs would be spamming Mage's Wrath AND a destro staff execute. Enemies below 20% damage are going to be executed by one or the other. Spamming both wouldn't help. You don't see StamBlades spamming the 2H's Executioner and Impale, right? They choose one or the other.

This brings up a good point that demonstrates the idea of a weapon based execute for magicka is very troubling.

Further, the history of the game has demonstrated that the lack of access to an execute does not mean the class is weaker. Heck, some used to joke that a magicka DK started their execute at 100% because of how strong they once were.

The real issue is not being addressed and that is how Zos balances the game overall.

Why every Stam class run Executioner?
And can run poison injection at the same time?
In a long and good fight Stam NB can have 3 executes at same time.

The question is WHY THE MAG WEAPONS CAN'T HAVE EXECUTE??

This really doesn't make sense.

short answer or long answer?

Short answer: magicka doesn't need executes

long answer: stam can't use the stam pool just for dmg as magicka does, so executes become necessary to compensate the stamina you use running, blocking, healing, dodge rolling, etc.

UntouchableHunter

idk wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

Yes. They also have to remove Sorcerer: Mage's Fury for obvious reasons. No double executes and catering for sorcs. They could turn the skill to somekind of poor tanking ability like they did on nightblades.

I don't think Sorcs would be spamming Mage's Wrath AND a destro staff execute. Enemies below 20% damage are going to be executed by one or the other. Spamming both wouldn't help. You don't see StamBlades spamming the 2H's Executioner and Impale, right? They choose one or the other.

This brings up a good point that demonstrates the idea of a weapon based execute for magicka is very troubling.

Further, the history of the game has demonstrated that the lack of access to an execute does not mean the class is weaker. Heck, some used to joke that a magicka DK started their execute at 100% because of how strong they once were.

The real issue is not being addressed and that is how Zos balances the game overall.

Why every Stam class run Executioner?
And can run poison injection at the same time?
In a long and good fight Stam NB can have 3 executes at same time.

The question is WHY THE MAG WEAPONS CAN'T HAVE EXECUTE??

This really doesn't make sense.

Why did you not address the real issue I presented?

History demonstrates the accuracy of that issue very well. There have been times that magical DPS greatly outperformed stamina DPS.

In pvp?

And yes zos need to balance but still need to a execute for Mag weapons

UntouchableHunter

Xvorg wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

Yes. They also have to remove Sorcerer: Mage's Fury for obvious reasons. No double executes and catering for sorcs. They could turn the skill to somekind of poor tanking ability like they did on nightblades.

I don't think Sorcs would be spamming Mage's Wrath AND a destro staff execute. Enemies below 20% damage are going to be executed by one or the other. Spamming both wouldn't help. You don't see StamBlades spamming the 2H's Executioner and Impale, right? They choose one or the other.

This brings up a good point that demonstrates the idea of a weapon based execute for magicka is very troubling.

Further, the history of the game has demonstrated that the lack of access to an execute does not mean the class is weaker. Heck, some used to joke that a magicka DK started their execute at 100% because of how strong they once were.

The real issue is not being addressed and that is how Zos balances the game overall.

Why every Stam class run Executioner?
And can run poison injection at the same time?
In a long and good fight Stam NB can have 3 executes at same time.

The question is WHY THE MAG WEAPONS CAN'T HAVE EXECUTE??

This really doesn't make sense.

short answer or long answer?

Short answer: magicka doesn't need executes

long answer: stam can't use the stam pool just for dmg as magicka does, so executes become necessary to compensate the stamina you use running, blocking, healing, dodge rolling, etc.

Magicka doesn't need a execute????? You don't play mag pvp for sure.

More and more players are going to Stam. And every Stam run the same skill executioner.

You are not seeing the point here.

I don't Wana they nerf executioner, I just Wana a good skill close to executioner.

Can't you see every Stam class running the same skill? And we don't have nothing close as mag skill...

Firstmep

CambionDaemon wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@CambionDaemon no they didn't. In fact, in the latest AUA, they said they were actually looking into it.

As I remember on that AMA, he said it is something that they are looking at BUT are not sure how to do it. And also remember that they said they were looking at it about 3 years ago as well.

I'm sure it will happen at some point after cp reworks.. XD

idk

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

idk wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

Yes. They also have to remove Sorcerer: Mage's Fury for obvious reasons. No double executes and catering for sorcs. They could turn the skill to somekind of poor tanking ability like they did on nightblades.

I don't think Sorcs would be spamming Mage's Wrath AND a destro staff execute. Enemies below 20% damage are going to be executed by one or the other. Spamming both wouldn't help. You don't see StamBlades spamming the 2H's Executioner and Impale, right? They choose one or the other.

This brings up a good point that demonstrates the idea of a weapon based execute for magicka is very troubling.

Further, the history of the game has demonstrated that the lack of access to an execute does not mean the class is weaker. Heck, some used to joke that a magicka DK started their execute at 100% because of how strong they once were.

The real issue is not being addressed and that is how Zos balances the game overall.

Why every Stam class run Executioner?
And can run poison injection at the same time?
In a long and good fight Stam NB can have 3 executes at same time.

The question is WHY THE MAG WEAPONS CAN'T HAVE EXECUTE??

This really doesn't make sense.

Why did you not address the real issue I presented?

History demonstrates the accuracy of that issue very well. There have been times that magical DPS greatly outperformed stamina DPS.

In pvp?

On both PvE and PvP.

UntouchableHunter

[/quote]

On both PvE and PvP.

[/quote]

Well, not in this patch anymore.

idk

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

On both PvE and PvP.

[/quote]

Well, not in this patch anymore.

[/quote]

Clearly, I never suggested it was.

However, you are still avoiding the question concerning the real issue.

I can tell you that having an execute is irrelevant to how well the class performs. We know this as fact since classes with access to more executes have performed poorly at times and classes with fewer executes, or none, have performed quite well.

Which is why I suggest it is best to focus on the real issue.

Edit: I made my statement in this post bold as what I quoted was somewhat missed up when the previous poster edited the quote. Just wanted to make clear what was actually said in this post.

Everest_Lionheart

Well this is certainly an interesting thread. I only play PvE so I will comment from that standpoint. I play 2 stam toons and 2 mag toons. One of my stam has what I consider a real execute, the other does not. One or my mag toons also has one the other does not. Overall DPS wise my two toons that without the executes outperform the toons with executes.

What it comes down ti for me is the toons without executes apply stronger pressure throughout the duration of the fight where my toons with executes perform amazingly over the last 25% of the fight. So I will do a quick side by side analysis.

First my stam toons. I run a Stamden and a Stamblade. The Stamden is all about stacking bleed, poison and physical dots. Between growing swarm, rending slash, trap beast, endless hail, birds when off balance and yes poison injection. It’s all stacks with deadly strikes and all those dots are kept up for the entire fight. There is no real execute, yes poison injection technically is, but stacking 7x bleeds from birds is outperforming poison injection by a mile. Bear ulti hits crazy hard but only available every other rotation. It hits for 140-160K but that’s nothing compared to NB execute which comes in at 100K+ and can be spammed multiple times in a row. Nightblade by comparison is all based around stacking damage using your incap strike and spectral procs. The build up takes longer to get to execute but execute phase is crazy fast. If I were to put these two in a group together the warden would push higher steady numbers to get the NB to the execute phase where it is one of the best in game, as it should be. Numbers on a solo parse however don’t tell the whole story. My Stamden comes in at 84k and my NB comes in at 78K.

The mag toons I play are MagDK and Magplar. The magplar has the execute. The DK puts out higher raw damage numbers over the course of a full parse, 82K to my magplar’s 78K. It has much harder hitting abilities and uses its fully charged up whip once per rotation which hits for ~79K each time. Spamable whips hitting for 42K per hit. It’s constant pressure over the fight outperforms magplar which has 100K executes like the NB but much weaker dots than DK. Spamables hit for 38-39K per hit.

Now overall I find these toons are all within an acceptable range of one another with the Stamden slightly over performing and the MagDK being the most consistent. Stamden has a range of 81-84 which is reliant on me optimizing off balance procs. NB is 76-78 depending on how efficient my parse is going. I find the spectral proc to be awkward sometimes and not always reliable. I don’t practice NB as much either so I could probably clean it up and push over 80 consistently. Magplar I hit a tighter window 77-78K every time, that’s likely crits or a missed LA or two, weaving ele weapons can get dicey sometimes but I’m good most of the time.

And here is where MagDK stands alone. I can repeat this 82K parse within a few hundred every single time. 82.1 one time 82.4 the next, 82.5 then 82.2. It’s machine like, it’s on point, it’s the one I practice the most also. The ulti lands in the exact same spot every time. The potions in the same spot. I need to use spell symmetry in the same place each parse. It’s rock solid and as consistent a rotation as you will see. Not my highest toon, but certainly my best because I know how it will perform not just in practice but in an actual raid situation as well.

So to sum up, at least from the perspective of this PvE only player, executes aren’t going to make or break things either way and in its current state the game is more balanced than I have seen since I started playing this year.

Kory

Distance executes should be illegal in pvp in my opinion. At least have a HIGH cost to use.

ESO_Nightingale

personally, when it comes to magicka warden specifically for an execute, because of the existance of feral guardian as a huge ultimate execute i think that they would benefit most from a smaller form of execute. the easiest way to do this in my opinion, is changing fetcher infection's morph effect to have poison injection's morph philosophy, of a dot execute that gradually increases in power as the target gets less health. This way we can remove the totally bizarre double cast mechanic for a consistent effect.

danno8

NECRO FROM JULY 2019.

Maybe start a new thread if you want to talk damage and class performance in late 2020.

Seraphayel

danno8 wrote: »

NECRO FROM JULY 2019.

Maybe start a new thread if you want to talk damage and class performance in late 2020.

Yes, this thread is from July 2019, yet 1.5 years later nothing in this regard has changed and the topic is still recent. So this thread and its points are still recent as well (which honestly is sad).