The State of Execute Abilities (and why Magicka DPS is in need of one)

Seraphayel

This topic isn't new and well-known for quite some time now, it just needs to be brought up again because ZOS seems to be either ignorant or oblivious about this topic.
Execute abilities are an important factor in competitive gameplay. Not so much in PvE as they are in PvP but their importance even for competitive PvE DPS shouldn't be underestimated.
There are two types of execute abilities in the game, class-based and weapon-based executes. Overall there are three class related and three weapon related executes.

- Sorcerer: Mage's Fury (Magicka)
- Templar: Radiant Destruction (Magicka)
- Nightblade: Assassin's Blade (Impale: Magicka; Killer’s Blade: Stamina)
- Two Handed: Reverse Slash (Stamina)
- Dual Wield: Whirling Blades (Stamina) + Slaughter (Passive; 20% more damage with DW abilities on targets below 25% health)
- Bow: Poison Injection (Stamina)
(- Warden: Feral Guardian (Magicka & Stamina) - this Execute is barely useful, very situational and requires double slotting; don't really see a reason to take this into context when discussing "proper" execute abilities)

Of the 6 classes only 3 offer an execute ability – Dragon Knight, Warden and Necromancer lack a class based execute. Class executes are usually Magicka based (the Nightblade skill is the exception as it has a Stamina morph) whereas all available weapon executes are exclusively Stamina based. On top of that Stamina builds are able to benefit twice by execute abilities as one of them is a DoT you apply once every several seconds whereas you can spam the other execute while the DoT is ticking.

No Magicka build with a class based execute can do so and none of the other Magicka builds that overall lack accessibility to an execute ability can do it neither. This creates a “double gap” for several Magicka specs and is one of the reasons why Magicka DPS, especially Dragon Knight, Warden and Necromancer, is underperforming (and in case of the Warden, doing so since it’s release) and Stamina DPS in general is overperforming (for quite some time now).

To get better insights into PvE fights looking at ESO Logs is quite helpful to see what I am talking about. The top parsing specs all make excessive use of one or two execute abilities (with Sorcerers being the exception to the rule as neither Magicka nor Stamina Sorcerers seem to make excessive use of execute abilities).
When checking parses results are:

Poison Injection contributes to 5-10% overall damage
Reverse Slash contributes to 15-20% overall damage
Whirling Blades contributes to 10-15% overall damage
Radiant Destruction contributes to 10-15% overall damage
Impale contributes to 8-12% overall damage
(Feral Guardian contributes to 2-4% overall damage)

In the end this means Stamina builds usually make up 20-30% (Two Handed) or 15-25% (Dual Wield) of their overall damage via execute abilities. The only other competitive Magicka DPS builds that can compete are Templars where their execute is 10-15% overall damage. Magicka Nightblades at the moment are not competitive, their execute still contributes to 8-12% overall damage. As I said, Sorcerers generally don’t use executes at all and the strength of Magicka Sorceres at the moment comes almost solely due to the overperformance of their pets. Besides that no competitive DPS spec is not using execute abilities.

On top of all of that Dual Wield, next to having an (AoE) execute ability, it has a very mighty execute passive that increases damage with DW skills by 20% when the target is below 25% health. Magicka has nothing comparable to that.

Where Stamina DPS can make up almost one quarter of their overall damage via executes, Magicka DPS cannot. The classes that suffer the most by this circumstance are Dragon Knights, Wardens and Necromancers because they overall lack potency when it comes to Magicka DPS (which cannot solely be blamed on the lack of an execute ability though). When we’re checking overall DPS capabilities it becomes obvious that Magicka is nowhere near Stamina and the difference is in most cases a lot more than just 10%.

Possible solutions:

- Turn one of the Destructive Touch morphs into an equivalent of Poison Injection
- Add a Magicka execute to either the Psijik Order or the Mage’s Guild skill lines
- Give every class an execute ability

TL;DR:

I do not want Stamina executes to get nerfed or removed. I think they’re a positive contributing factor to the game. In the end Magicka must be brought in line when it comes to accessability of execute abilities. I do not request that Magicka DPS is going to outperform or even out with Stamina. I'm fine with Stamina being 5-10% ahead due to being melee (although in several boss fights ranged Magicka DPS is required to stand close to the melee camp).

Important note: I left out some passives that could be considered similar to executes (Amplitude from Sorcerers, Death Knell from Necromancers) because they barely play a role in this comparison.

Stibbons

Yes. They also have to remove Sorcerer: Mage's Fury for obvious reasons. No double executes and catering for sorcs. They could turn the skill to somekind of poor tanking ability like they did on nightblades.

WuffyCerulei

NeRf SoRc.

I agree though. The passive execute on dual wield buffs stam dps too. Magicka needs that on one their passives.

WuffyCerulei

Stibbons wrote: »

Yes. They also have to remove Sorcerer: Mage's Fury for obvious reasons. No double executes and catering for sorcs. They could turn the skill to somekind of poor tanking ability like they did on nightblades.

How can I downvote on here.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

NeRf SoRc.

I agree though. The passive execute on dual wield buffs stam dps too. Magicka needs that on one their passives.

take the silly "Penetrating Magic" passive, percent armor pen is junk on mag, and make it a passive execute for all your magic abilities while a destro staff is equipped. or hell, make the passive just impact destro skills and scale up to 20% under 25% like the dw passive.

John_Falstaff

So why Death Knell doesn't play role in this comparison? Is it correct to leave it out? Because that's basically the equivalent - in execute phase, all damaging skills for the necromancers basically turn into execute skills when crit chance pushes towards 100%.

Granted, it's a shame mDKs and magdens don't have any execute, especially with that sorry state of things magdens are in for the last... a lot of time.

Savos_Saren

John_Falstaff wrote: »

So why Death Knell doesn't play role in this comparison? Is it correct to leave it out? Because that's basically the equivalent - in execute phase, all damaging skills for the necromancers basically turn into execute skills when crit chance pushes towards 100%.

Granted, it's a shame mDKs and magdens don't have any execute, especially with that sorry state of things magdens are in for the last... a lot of time.

Technically, Wardens do have an execute (though it's laughable) in their Feral Guardian. It's a shame that Feral Guardian was highlighted in the cinematic for the Warden and is such a unique ability for the class... yet no one uses it.

Savos_Saren

Stibbons wrote: »

Yes. They also have to remove Sorcerer: Mage's Fury for obvious reasons. No double executes and catering for sorcs. They could turn the skill to somekind of poor tanking ability like they did on nightblades.

I don't think Sorcs would be spamming Mage's Wrath AND a destro staff execute. Enemies below 20% damage are going to be executed by one or the other. Spamming both wouldn't help. You don't see StamBlades spamming the 2H's Executioner and Impale, right? They choose one or the other.

WoppaBoem

Nerf Poison Injection and DW passive, please

Or indeed give some execute mechanics to the destro staff and or light armor.

Seraphayel

John_Falstaff wrote: »

So why Death Knell doesn't play role in this comparison? Is it correct to leave it out? Because that's basically the equivalent - in execute phase, all damaging skills for the necromancers basically turn into execute skills when crit chance pushes towards 100%.

Granted, it's a shame mDKs and magdens don't have any execute, especially with that sorry state of things magdens are in for the last... a lot of time.

I did not add Death Knell because I think its effect at best is neat but nothing that shakes up things in a meaningful way. Crit chance for most builds is already very high so I barely see this as something substantial for Necromancer DPS. When we look at Magcros it indeed is totally negligible. For Stamcro... it’s hard to calculate the real impact of this passive in the end. I just went without it because - for me - it doesn’t contribute much. If there are some in depth calculations on this I am up to change my mind.

About Warden‘s Bear... true, I simply forgot about it. It has a build in execute and I will go over the logs and see if I can find something meaningful to consider it (I doubt it though).

Xvorg

Stibbons wrote: »

Yes. They also have to remove Sorcerer: Mage's Fury for obvious reasons. No double executes and catering for sorcs. They could turn the skill to somekind of poor tanking ability like they did on nightblades.

Double execute?

It would only be possible IF one of the executes is a passive. It's no longer the case...

Although Stam makes use of something similar when applying a dot Bleed through DW (rending?) and then spamming executioner. Or even a stamblade can use a triple execute using Poison injection + Rending + Killer's blade (because Killer's blade is the execute, not Assa scourge)

Seraphayel

Basically every Stamina build is using double executes by the way, Poison Injection (Bow) + Reverse Slash / Whirlwind.

Starlight_Knight

My magden is in dire need of an execute, trying to execute people with meteor or shock clench .. not cool

But sorc has enough execute for everyone.

Onefrkncrzypope

I'm kinda confused on what side of the game you are talking about.

PvE wise this thread is a bit too misguided tbh. ESO logs tells a different story than what is perceived on the forums. We no longer need to compare just liko. We can now see an average of a pool of players. ESO logs at the 75th percentile shows magdk around the top of the pack of mag(last time I checked) stamDK in the number two slot. Side note that everyone really needs to pay attention to. Lokk is the absolute reason why there is a large margin between Stam and mag.

Mag sorcs are "op" because the twilight has so many percentage damage boosts.

Stamcro is on top because of the damage passives are designed around the current meta. Extra pen so you can invest in more damage modifiers.
Dots that are around 15% off from a vma(2003 wep dmg) empowered dot.
And no real penalty for wearing lokk instead of ay. All other Stam classes lose out on crit but not necros.

PvP wise. Honestly the best class in PvP is a magsorc, it so far ahead it's a joke. Fury/legion is a hard carry for a SDK. Some classes are kinda poopy but none are close to a magcro.

The game gives you multiple slots and so many chances to respec. If you are not happy with your class change it. If but my main blah blah stay on it. Both of those choices have pros and cons. Weigh them and choose

and stop worrying about some class that is in the toilet and start worrying about bug fixes. We don't need them to be split up in any other side project right now.

Balance is worthless stuck in a loadscreen or inside a memory leak.

WrathOfInnos

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

Yes. They also have to remove Sorcerer: Mage's Fury for obvious reasons. No double executes and catering for sorcs. They could turn the skill to somekind of poor tanking ability like they did on nightblades.

I don't think Sorcs would be spamming Mage's Wrath AND a destro staff execute. Enemies below 20% damage are going to be executed by one or the other. Spamming both wouldn't help. You don't see StamBlades spamming the 2H's Executioner and Impale, right? They choose one or the other.

I know Mage’s Wrath is hated in PVP, but in PVE it’s already useless, even without an alternative execute. I removed it from my bars (added Channeled Acceleration) and gained 1k DPS on Yolnahkriin yesterday.

Only Nightblades and Templars have a meaningful execute on the Magicka side.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Wow, it really doesnt take long for the potatoes to come out of the woodwork and turn anything into a nerf sorc thread. Mages wrath is useless in PVE, and has become scarce even in PVP as it gets dodges an absurd amount of the time these days. Most of the best sorcs dont even run it any more.

If you die to a mages wrath spam, simply put, you are terrible at this game. Sure you are going to see it on a death recap from time to time, but chances are you were dead anyway. If anyone should be mad, its the guy who lost the KB to the sorc.

To the OP, not every class needs an execute. It would be one thing if the classes you mentioned (DK, warden, and Necro) were underperforming in PVP, but they certainly are not.

Toc de Malsvi

Poison Injection is used for the whole parse not just the execute range. So that percent contribution has to be noticeably marked down.

PI isn't killing anyone on its own and especially not any mag build. It ticks harder at low health true, but its not that hard hitting at all.

Also stam doesn't have a execute counter heal like healing ward that increases by 300% at low health.

JumpmanLane

DAMAGE is your execute. If you’re playing the game any other way you’re a tater tot!

Seraphayel

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

To the OP, not every class needs an execute. It would be one thing if the classes you mentioned (DK, warden, and Necro) were underperforming in PVP, but they certainly are not.

Excuse me, what? Magcro and Magden are the worst specs for PvE and PvP. They don’t have any pressure. Can they be a pita? Yes, when played in groups or as healers/buffbots. Are they a threat as DPS? No. The lack of an execute is a contributing factor for this, especially in PvP.

I agree, not every class needs an execute. But at least every possible spec does (Magicka/Stamina). There is no reason why Stamina builds have access to three executes and another passive execute ability on top when Magicka has zero equivalent skills. Zero. There is not even arguing about that, this imbalance just contributes to the indisputable superiority of Stamina specs in both, PvE and PvP.

Runefang

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

I'm kinda confused on what side of the game you are talking about.

PvE wise this thread is a bit too misguided tbh. ESO logs tells a different story than what is perceived on the forums. We no longer need to compare just liko. We can now see an average of a pool of players. ESO logs at the 75th percentile shows magdk around the top of the pack of mag(last time I checked) stamDK in the number two slot. Side note that everyone really needs to pay attention to. Lokk is the absolute reason why there is a large margin between Stam and mag../ snip.

If you think the logs are putting magDKs on top you’re looking at something very wrong. The only thing they top is an alphabetical order.

Wandering_Immigrant

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

To the OP, not every class needs an execute. It would be one thing if the classes you mentioned (DK, warden, and Necro) were underperforming in PVP, but they certainly are not.

This is my thought exactly. I swear this community is so back and forth on priorities, one day it's "homogenization is killing ESO", the next day it's "Oh, but executes, every class needs to have one that functions exactly the same as every other one."

Necro's doesn't count, nevermind the fact that you can build for spell/weapon damage while getting the benefits of a critical build in execute range, it's not quantifiable on a parse so it doesn't count.

Warden's doesn't count, niche build. Doesn't matter that for a lot of people the bear is why they roll a Warden, or that perme-pets are supposedly so OP that there's a million threads asking for them to be stricken from the game, niche build.

Hell even the new proc morph for whip works the same as a standard execute. A middle of the pack insta-cast ability (spammable) that does increased damage under conditions. But oh it's not exclusive to execute range? Not an execute, doesn't matter that it can be used to execute someone, it's not an execute because it doesn't work precisely the same as these other handful of abilities.

Onefrkncrzypope

Runefang wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

I'm kinda confused on what side of the game you are talking about.

PvE wise this thread is a bit too misguided tbh. ESO logs tells a different story than what is perceived on the forums. We no longer need to compare just liko. We can now see an average of a pool of players. ESO logs at the 75th percentile shows magdk around the top of the pack of mag(last time I checked) stamDK in the number two slot. Side note that everyone really needs to pay attention to. Lokk is the absolute reason why there is a large margin between Stam and mag../ snip.

If you think the logs are putting magDKs on top you’re looking at something very wrong. The only thing they top is an alphabetical order.

75th percentile iron atro. 87k ish. Not the best but of the logs submitted they are averaged higher than the other classes. Tbh I really was just pointing out something. And was a small part of my whole comment, so I really don't care I guess.

Sanguinor2

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

75th percentile iron atro. 87k ish. Not the best but of the logs submitted they are averaged higher than the other classes. Tbh I really was just pointing out something. And was a small part of my whole comment, so I really don't care I guess.

The issue with magdk is not only Damage, sure its better off than some mag classes like magden and magcro but also lower than sorc and templar but the bigger issue is them taking a melee spot at all times and having to actually measure up to Stamina dps to be considered if you want to somewhat optimize a Group.

WoppaBoem

Your approach is nice but would make the game much more boring. There needs to be more difference between Stam and Mag not more of the same. Making 1 of the reach more or less the same as poison arrow affirms you approach you want mag and stam to be the same.

Think about something cool that would be counter to the many execute options for Stam for Mag but not being an execute. I hope the devs won't listen to much to your comments and others as I have seen these ideas before. I would hope the devs drive towards more difference in mag vs stam.

However the end goal should be that the difference on the top end of DPS test should be very similair that the high skill ceiling of reaching that would be worth doing on every class.

Seraphayel

I find it funny, Stamina and Magicka have the same playstyle because how this game is build: take all the strong DoTs (ST and AoE), a filler ability and self buffs and there you have every meta build.

But giving Magicka builds 1 (!) execute ability when Stamina has access to 3 (4) would make Magicka and Stamina too similar?

Executes matter, especially in PvP. There’s no reason and no proper explanation why Magicka builds don’t have access to at least one execute ability when there is Whirling Blades, Reverse Slash, Poison Injection and Slaughter for Stamina builds.

TrinityBreaker

Savos_Saren wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

So why Death Knell doesn't play role in this comparison? Is it correct to leave it out? Because that's basically the equivalent - in execute phase, all damaging skills for the necromancers basically turn into execute skills when crit chance pushes towards 100%.

Granted, it's a shame mDKs and magdens don't have any execute, especially with that sorry state of things magdens are in for the last... a lot of time.

Technically, Wardens do have an execute (though it's laughable) in their Feral Guardian. It's a shame that Feral Guardian was highlighted in the cinematic for the Warden and is such a unique ability for the class... yet no one uses it.

Probably because it has to be double barred and no one wants to double bar an ult.

TrinityBreaker

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

To the OP, not every class needs an execute. It would be one thing if the classes you mentioned (DK, warden, and Necro) were underperforming in PVP, but they certainly are not.

Excuse me, what? Magcro and Magden are the worst specs for PvE and PvP. They don’t have any pressure. Can they be a pita? Yes, when played in groups or as healers/buffbots. Are they a threat as DPS? No. The lack of an execute is a contributing factor for this, especially in PvP.

I agree, not every class needs an execute. But at least every possible spec does (Magicka/Stamina). There is no reason why Stamina builds have access to three executes and another passive execute ability on top when Magicka has zero equivalent skills. Zero. There is not even arguing about that, this imbalance just contributes to the indisputable superiority of Stamina specs in both, PvE and PvP.

I mean once a upon time sorc had 2, Mage's Fury and Implosion. Now sorc has an execute and reverse execute.

Wolfpaw

Landing a bear execute is a pain.

It has been years since I played wow but I remember when Hunter pets got a charge skill followed by stun due to the pathing issues and the pet's ability to keep up with the pace of combat: gap closers, teleport, sprint, etc..

Bear Ult.
Charge>snare/immobilize/stun>Guardian's Wrath

Browiseth

why does every class need to be the same?

Seraphayel

Browiseth wrote: »

why does every class need to be the same?

Where am I asking for that?

Why does every class need a single target and an AoE ground DoT?

Why does every class need a self heal?

Why does every class need a CC ability?

Why does every class...

I don’t see how giving Magicka access to a single execute ability would decrease diversity (that doesn’t exist in this game at all).

LukosCreyden

Don't worry, the "one-handed and spell" weapon skill line will have an execute. I guarantee it.