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Beginner dungeons: How is a tank to learn if all the level 50s run ahead?

Recent
Recent
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It is very unfair and makes no sense that newbie players especially tanks trying to learn cant practice in the beginner dungeons. How did this even happen? So players keep getting op and they just jump into the beginner dungeons and just run ahead while new players don't even get to enjoy the content or get to do quests? I was going to get Elsweyr but not like this. Ive come back after a long break and I have content to do but it's not enjoyable like this. I like doing dungeons but so many players run through too fast. Like a speed run just to get keys.

Why not change the system and have a shard that is just for the lower level characters that dont even have cp so they can learn mechanics and do quests and enjoy what all you guys enjoyed before everyone got strong and cp 810.

I dont want to join a guild cos I dont like to do what they want to do I want to be free to play when I want and do what I want and sometimes I like to have lots of quiet solo time. I pug and meet lots of nice players that do quests and pick up books and we all do our role and it works well. Unfortunately it's not always this way but mostly we get max levels carrying and I don't want a carry.

Today in fungal gotto 1 begged the 50 cp 500 healer to please let tank do the tanking for experience. This healer ran ahead and did shortcut and killed last boss...this is very unfair on tank. no Im not being salty I just want to experience the game at my lower level and low gear without skipping and just ignoring mechanics just cause it's a lowbie dungeon.

Zos there has to be and needs to be beginner dungeons only for appropriate low levels with no cp

Also all the lore in the dungeons, the quests that are fun and nicely created they are meant to be skipped or just done in a wild rush without reading anything because we all have to run around in a blur?

Edited by Recent on June 30, 2019 6:32AM
  • Ashtaris
    Ashtaris
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    Well the best way is to get into a guild that does dungeons, preferably one with Discord/Teamspeak so you can easily express your desire to learn as a tank and hold the DPS back. Most guild dungeon runners are happy to comply as we are not on a time clock, and besides, if you become good at your craft that’s better for all of us.
  • Zacuel
    Zacuel
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    Recent wrote: »
    Zacuel wrote: »
    It is just a speed run to get keys and they don't like low levels slowing them down.

    ... So this is the answer you'll hear from everybody else.

    Don't pug. Play with friends or like minded guild mates.

    You are missing my point exactly, there needs to be a separate lot of beginner dungeons just for beginners. This is not a fair system. You dont place Olympic swimmers with babies learning to swim in the same pool and get them to race do you?

    I said I dont want to be in guilds. What is wrong with going into a pug dungeon where every player is around similar level?

    I mainly want the zos devs to see my post and hopefully help or change things. There are more players like myself that dont like guilds. I dont know many people yet only one friend on eso since I just came back and cant play much cos im so busy in rl. Anyway thanks for the replies but yea I believe the dungeon level system is unfair.

    I understand your point completely. I'm just telling you how it is and how it will continue to be.

    I like your pool analogy though. I was going to make a dead baby joke. But I'll just say this.

    Sink or swim.
  • VDoom1
    VDoom1
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    Wait what? The healer ran ahead and killed the last boss. o.O Well that is the first time I have heard of anything like that. Sounds very odd, that healer must have been in a rush.

    One thing to note is that sometimes people want the dungeon to go faster if their XP scroll is about to run out.

    That said I agree. Sometimes new players or low level players don't get much chance to just learn. The normal dungeons are just for that, learning. The mechanics, bosses, how things work etc.

    I know of something else kind of like this.
    My buddie just got ESO a few months ago, she is still leveling her first character. While in a normal dungeon yesterday someone all of a sudden started going on about "low damage". Like what? It was Wayrest sewers II on normal. This is not a dungeon where you need to worry about damage, or make others worry about damage. Damage there doesn't matter.

    After that it made my buddie wonder about dungeons a bit, if they are toxic. Sure there is that rotten apple every now and then but still. So that healer you encountered that complaining person my buddie encountered, they are just two examples. Examples of people who could chill a bit, at least in a normal dungeon. There are 3 other people in the group to consider. New players should not get some rant about "your damage sucks!" or "last boss dead" like...k..that was fun.

    My buddie is new to ESO and so are many others. It's a great game and personally I really enjoy the dungeons. I think they are a lot of fun, especially on Veteran when they are more challenging. I do not want new players or returning players to fear them or avoid them because of some rotten people.

    Therefor I support your original idea. Some sort of system could be implemented so new or returning players get to relax, just have fun and learn. Or those people with a fire under them can just slow the heck down, it's not a race. Or people in a rush could just enter the dungeon with a premade group, so they can run to the end and all be in on it.

    This has been mentioned a bit before. To split the dungeon queue so that people with high CP enter a separate queue, or something like that.
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  • DarcyMardin
    DarcyMardin
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    Many of us have been asking for a story-mode dungeon queue so those of us who haven’t been able to finish the quests, get the skill points, and/or learn the dungeon’s mechanics and practice our roles would get the chance to experience these dungeons without being forced to join a beginner’s dungeon guild (if such a thing even exists).

    Some of us who want this aren’t even beginners—I’ve been here since the beta, but I still haven’t done all the dungeons on normal, let alone vet. Most of the quests I’ve completed are from dungeons I’ve either solo’d or duo’d with my husband. And while we can do many dungeons with me tanking and him DPS’ing, I’m not getting the experience as a tank that I need, either. Whenever I join the random queue, I join as a healer, at which I have years of experience both here and in other MMOs. And even then I usually end up chasing the speed runners thru the dungeon and seeing them all exit at the end, throwing me out of the dungeon, too, before I can turn in my quest.

    Since story-mode has always seemed to me to be a reasonable request, I can only assume that there must be some technical reason why ZOS doesn’t implement it. Given all the other technical issues currently plaguing the game, I can’t pretend to be surprised.
  • p00tx
    p00tx
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    Your frustration is noted and I agree that it is a problem for newer players. I'm one of those max CP players who prefer to just get the dungeon done so i can move on to what i really want to be doing. I'm usually try to fit a bunch of leveling and character maintenance into a rather short amount of available time, and don't have the time for someone to dawdle. However, when new dungeons drop, I do like to go through and enjoy them the first time I run them, and I also find it frustrating that people want to rush through. In that case, I'll usually assemble a group of people who also want to experience the instance the way I do, and solve my own problem.

    That said, I'm going to re-suggest the guild idea that I know you're digging in your heels about. A good guild full of normal, well-adjusted humans is not going to force you to do anything you don't want to do. If you want to play with them, then do so, and enjoy the connections that allow you to now find a proper group that suits your needs. If you don't want to play with anyone, don't. I'm in 5 guilds, and i get a lot of requests to run content from players in all of them (tanks and healers get the most requests for help), but when I just want to play solo, which happens about once a week or so, I put myself into offline mode in the guild roster and on my Xbox profile, and I go do my thing. No one gets mad and no one faults me for it.

    In a game that has to accommodate all players of all levels in nearly all content, that is your best option at the moment. I too would like to see a lower impact "story-mode" for dungeons for those who don't want to mix with the rest of us, but unless and until that happens, expanding your in-game social network via a guild population is your best bet. Maybe a role-playing guild, now that I think of it. They're the most likely to want to pace themselves in content.
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  • Protossyder
    Protossyder
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    Noldornir wrote: »
    Recent wrote: »
    It is very unfair and makes no sense that newbie players especially tanks trying to learn cant practice in the beginner dungeons. How did this even happen? So players keep getting op and they just jump into the beginner dungeons and just run ahead while new players don't even get to enjoy the content or get to do quests? I was going to get Elsweyr but not like this. Ive come back after a long break and I have content to do but it's not enjoyable like this. I like doing dungeons but so many players run through too fast. Like a speed run just to get keys.

    Why not change the system and have a shard that is just for the lower level characters that dont even have cp so they can learn mechanics and do quests and enjoy what all you guys enjoyed before everyone got strong and cp 810.

    I dont want to join a guild cos I dont like to do what they want to do I want to be free to play when I want and do what I want and sometimes I like to have lots of quiet solo time. I pug and meet lots of nice players that do quests and pick up books and we all do our role and it works well. Unfortunately it's not always this way but mostly we get max levels carrying and I don't want a carry.

    Today in fungal gotto 1 begged the 50 cp 500 healer to please let tank do the tanking for experience. This healer ran ahead and did shortcut and killed last boss...this is very unfair on tank. no Im not being salty I just want to experience the game at my lower level and low gear without skipping and just ignoring mechanics just cause it's a lowbie dungeon.

    Zos there has to be and needs to be beginner dungeons only for appropriate low levels with no cp

    Also all the lore in the dungeons, the quests that are fun and nicely created they are meant to be skipped or just done in a wild rush without reading anything because we all have to run around in a blur?


    I apologize but as a Main Tank I fail to see why this is happening,

    Are you queuing for Vets Dungeons? I hardly seen such a behavior in a normal one unless someone is farming it (and usually do it alone).

    When I did my first dungeon i was lvl 14-15 and usually got ppl around that lvl while I've seen the problem you are talking about later on (way after lvl 50 when doing first vets and you should learn the basis by now; if you haven't you might have chose to fast-exp your tank it which is NOT a good idea imho).

    Anyway= most DDs in this game are just not clever enought:

    1) They complains about "fake-tanks"
    2) When they got a real tank they start acting like if he's not (READS: throwing themselves in big groups BEFORE the tank does)
    3) The Tank cannot taunt fast enough the 6-12 adds he pulled so DPS dies
    4) DPS complains about "another fake tank who can't taunt!!"

    if you are tank and want to experience a DECENT dungeoning know this:

    You are lucky 'cause there are 100 DDs for every tank out there meaning that YOU can (and should if needed) be pricky!

    They start running/aggroing/nuking in a dungeon?
    warn once= plz dont take aggro

    hapening again?
    apply the rule= you pull? then you can tank

    happening again?
    kick/leave group (depending if it's just one guy it's probably pissing off others as well while if all behaves like this just go)

    you'll find another group in 1 minute while they can:

    1) Finish the place tankless since they 'r so high n mighty
    2) roll for another tank (this will take SOOOOOOOOOOOME time)

    "you pull? then you can tank" - this is the most toxic and unnecessary quote I've ever read about eso pve.

    When I tank I just do my job, no matter what. When a DD is way ahead of me, my first thought is always: "Damn, I am too slow".
    Get rid if your crybaby-attitude.
    Edited by Protossyder on July 5, 2019 10:46AM
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  • Itacira
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    I have been playing for a year and have actually pointed out these same issues on this forum before. I avoid dungeons for that reason too. It's not ''fun'', it's just yet another daily job.

    That being said I'd love to run some dungeons withand likeminded people. I usually queue as a tank in normal dungeons because a) I'm a mediocre dps b) it's faster but if you're willing to put up with my 10k dps and are on PC EU I'll hit what you tank
    PC/EU - PVE 2H stam orc petsorc (meta, what meta?) ww - terrible dps - mediocre player - fun times - free ww bites to whomever asks so don't be shy if interested
  • Aznarb
    Aznarb
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    Here is my advice : SPEAK OMFG.

    I can't count the number of ppl running PUG and don't know the strat or that they've the quest and just die, slow the group or make group wipe.
    We don't know you and your life, so if you want something, SAY IT AT THE *** START.

    When I was starting, at every run I was saying "take care I'm new healer" or "Any strat ? never do this one" and so on.
    And guess what, I had rusher only once and it got kick by other cuzz they wanted to help me.
    Lot of player in this game are nice guy and have take time to explain to me and give me an amazing gaming experience.
    Now I can complete every HM w/o problem and even some vet Trial where I'm main healer with 7 month playing.
    I'm even happy to teach to news player my turn.

    But player who said nothing have no right to complain.

    Sorry if I'm rude, but I'm sick of this.
    Their is no game problem, their is people problem only.
    Edited by Aznarb on July 16, 2019 12:45AM
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  • msalvia
    msalvia
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    OP, this is one of the MANY reasons the skill gap is huge in this game between newer players and vets--high level players can solo these beginner dungeons, leaving newer players with little to do. Honestly, as many people have said, your best bet is to join a new-player oriented guild (i.e. a casual/social guild) and play with guildmates who are of similar skill level as you. That is unfortunately the only way I know--except asking the group to slow down please and hope your group is cool enough to give you tips.

    IMPORTANT: Tell people at the beginning that you're new. When I'm running an early dungeon and see someone below 50, my first assumption is "vet player leveling an alt," not "new player who needs tips." But I ALWAYS give tips and play slower if that level 15 tells me they're new.
  • Moloch1514
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    Unfortunately this requires more thought/effort than a mount reskin in the crown store, and would generate less revenue. So wont happen as long as Marketing is in charge of ZOS.
    PC-NA
  • es4eva
    es4eva
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    Zacuel wrote: »
    It is just a speed run to get keys and they don't like low levels slowing them down.

    ... So this is the answer you'll hear from everybody else.

    Don't pug. Play with friends or like minded guild mates.

    I mean...I understand where OP is coming from, but this is the right answer, yes. When you team up with randos, you never know what you're going to get. If you want a more well thought out, more predictable, more to your liking dungeon run, take the time and choose who you run with and make a plan.
  • Dagoth_Rac
    Dagoth_Rac
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    Recent wrote: »
    I dont want to join a guild cos I dont like to do what they want to do I want to be free to play when I want and do what I want and sometimes I like to have lots of quiet solo time.

    I have been playing this game for 5+ years, seen many guilds come and go, but have never been in a social guild that forced me to do anything. If I want to do something, I go in chat (or jump in Teamspeak/Discord) to ask to do that thing. If I don't want to do anything in a group that day, I don't go in chat or voice. I think you are missing out on a lot by refusing to join any guilds. The vast majority of guilds in ESO are friendly and casual and pressure-free.
  • Marginis
    Marginis
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    I don't know much, but perhaps with the LFG Finder update they'll implement some smarter matchmaking to better group players of similar levels. I see very little issue with grouping players of similar tastes together without forcing a completely separate mechanic (like guilds) on them.
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  • buttaface
    buttaface
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    VDoom1 wrote: »
    My buddie just got ESO a few months ago, she is still leveling her first character. While in a normal dungeon yesterday someone all of a sudden started going on about "low damage". Like what? It was Wayrest sewers II on normal. This is not a dungeon where you need to worry about damage, or make others worry about damage. Damage there doesn't matter.

    You may change your tune on the above after tanking normal VOM, WR1 or any dungeon and having it take 30-40 minutes a few times because you are doing 80%+ of the dps as a tank, and this happens to me several times a day. But your point, unlike rationalizations of unilateral mission rushing in PUGs, is a good example of a "get a group of friends or guild if you don't like the grab bag of PUGS."

    And in what world is telling the DPS they need to improve "toxic" in a neutral way? It's not. If I were a new tank and didn't use taunts, I'd sure appreciate someone telling me to get and level the skill for it. Same for DPS. If DPS is much below 10k total I will sometimes tell the DPS to go to youtube and watch a video on doing adequate DPS. There's nothing "toxic" about that and if someone has been playing ESO "a few months" there's really no excuse for not having a basic notion of skill rotations and damage.

  • buttaface
    buttaface
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    "you pull? then you can tank" - this is the most toxic and unnecessary quote I've ever read about eso pve. When I tank I just do my job, no matter what. When a DD is way ahead of me, my first thought is always: "Damn, I am too slow".Get rid if your crybaby-attitude.

    ***. If that's the "most toxic and unnecessary" quote you've ever read about eso pve, then it's -you- who are the crybaby, tender snowflake. "You pull you tank" is actually a pretty good rule of thumb. I think I'll take it a step further and make it "You pull and you are the new tank for the rest of the dungeon, I'll just swap into my DPS gear or better yet sit and heavy attack at range." After all, these jackasses are hoping that the tank will look past their poor play and still do their job on bosses. Take that away, and maybe they will start thinking about changing their -BAD- -SELFISH- -EPEENING- playstyle.

    And it has -nothing- to do with the tank being "too slow" and everything to do with bad play habits in MMOs. I've never seen a tank "too slow" who wasn't afk, and have only experienced that a couple of times. Face it, we are talking a difference of seconds here, not hours. DPS pre aggroing the mobs is bad team play in teams in MMOs, anyone who doesn't instantly realize that is either an MMO newb or being dishonest. Finally, difficulty level doesn't matter. There are players undergeared enough to die instantly to normal dungeon mob aggro when a tank has to clean up an overpull, and I have seen that very thing many times of late where some "hotshot" DPS doesn't know that there are 10 more mobs behind the rock where they just aggroed 5 and gets insta ganked.

    As amusing as that is when it happens, and as much as I LOL in group chat when it does, it isn't funny when it happens collaterally to low level players who may be in one of their first dungeons.

    But enough, there's really no discussion possible. Competent DPS don't prepull packs of mobs in MMOs. The end, finito, no debate possible. I've played with more CP capped players who could solo the content who wait the few seconds until the tank aggroes than jackass bads who prepull. Why do they wait? Because they know one of the basic, first-grader, cardinal rules of DPS in MMOS. DON'T GET AGGRO. Don't get it from a rat, don't get if from a boss. Again, the end.

    If you are tanking and packs keep getting pre aggroed by newb dps who don't realize this will get the team wiped when they keep doing that later, then your are doing them a disservice by not saying something. I say "please don't aggro packs before I do." Half the time they keep doing it and if I've gotten fed up for the day of this, I just leave. Sometimes I don't tank the next boss and watch their dreams of a "speed run" crash and burn as a boss that would take 1 minute with me tanking it takes 5 without.


  • St_Anger
    St_Anger
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    The max CP DDs run ahead, because they just want to go in, grab the loot/xp an leave with wasting as little time as possible.

    I would recommend to get a group of beginners from a guild or so to do it with you. Even if the max cp players would wait, you couldn’t really practice anyway, because they just burn the boss us 30 seconds skipping the most mechanics on the way.
  • buttaface
    buttaface
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    St_Anger wrote: »
    The max CP DDs run ahead, because they just want to go in, grab the loot/xp an leave with wasting as little time as possible.

    I would recommend to get a group of beginners from a guild or so to do it with you. Even if the max cp players would wait, you couldn’t really practice anyway, because they just burn the boss us 30 seconds skipping the most mechanics on the way.

    No. I would recommend that the above is a pure rationalization of *** gameplay. To restate, it isn't on the vast majority of newer, lower, average players to conform to some *** who is inexplicably in a normal dungeon pug, it's the very opposite.

    Want to speed run dungeons? YOU find a group of likeminded people. Don't have the 1-2 extra minutes to do the content as a considerate team player? Then why are you playing video games in the first place?

    And again, why are these asssholes in normal non DLC pugs and not vet or solo? Already answered that too, epeen.

    I pugged the same dungeon tanking for 4 characters today. One team I got in was full of high CP players, my level or higher. They played well as a team, the dungeon melted, took under 8 minutes, and everyone gg'ed and left. That's the way it is supposed to work. Next match, exact same dungeon, an *** DD epeen bad decided they were just going to aggro everything. Wasn't fun for anyone and probably wasn't fun for them either. Took at least 12 minutes. Do the math.
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    I think the answer is that you can’t learn in beginner dungeons. Normal dungeons exist so that players who are not interested in a challenge can still experience the storyline and complete the quest for a skill point. No DPS is going to get good at a rotation while fighting enemies that fall over with a few attacks. No healer is going to learn how to keep the group alive if they only practice in a setting with almost no incoming damage. Nobody is going to learn mechanics when there is no consequence for ignoring them. It’s not just a tank issue. Veteran difficulty is for learning, for figuring out mechanics, and for developing skill at a role. There has to be a certain level of challenge before one can overcome it and get better.
  • ErinM31
    ErinM31
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    The group finder doesn’t let you specify anything, does it? (I’m a newb and haven’t used it or indeed done any dungeons yet.) A nice thing about the group finder in GW2 was that you could post the specifications for those joining your group, such as “speed-run” or “will watch all cutscenes”. Of course some people use it to be quite demanding but hey, better to see that and avoid it than join and get kicked.

    I have been wondering when and how to start doing dungeons in this game. I too want to read all the lore and story and I would prefer to experience them with like-minded players or someone experienced who doesn’t mind being patient and guiding newbs in mechanics. Certainly, I don’t want to be carried or have some or all of the group rush ahead and complete things as that would spoil the experience for me.
  • El_Borracho
    El_Borracho
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    ErinM31 wrote: »
    The group finder doesn’t let you specify anything, does it? (I’m a newb and haven’t used it or indeed done any dungeons yet.) A nice thing about the group finder in GW2 was that you could post the specifications for those joining your group, such as “speed-run” or “will watch all cutscenes”. Of course some people use it to be quite demanding but hey, better to see that and avoid it than join and get kicked.

    I have been wondering when and how to start doing dungeons in this game. I too want to read all the lore and story and I would prefer to experience them with like-minded players or someone experienced who doesn’t mind being patient and guiding newbs in mechanics. Certainly, I don’t want to be carried or have some or all of the group rush ahead and complete things as that would spoil the experience for me.

    Don't let the OP discourage you. Most groups are cool with slowing down if you put in group chat at the start that you are doing the quest. Normal dungeons are typically comprised of very low level players with the occasional CP 810 mixed in. I have run normals with my maxed-out alternates to get easy skill points and this has been my experience.

    Now, I don't think they will let you read all the books or notes you pick up, but you're kind of in the minority of people who are interested in dungeon lore. I don't know how to solve that.
  • buttaface
    buttaface
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    ErinM31 wrote: »
    I have been wondering when and how to start doing dungeons in this game. I too want to read all the lore and story and I would prefer to experience them with like-minded players or someone experienced who doesn’t mind being patient and guiding newbs in mechanics. Certainly, I don’t want to be carried or have some or all of the group rush ahead and complete things as that would spoil the experience for me.

    Pugging normal is great for pushing numerous alts through Undaunted as efficiently as possible once one understands the basics of tanking and tank/dps hybrids (can do 10-15k and still taunt, control adds, buff team). Not much else unfortunately. Because such a high percentage of all video game players have nothing else going on and consider the game "their work" instead of a pleasant diversion from life and real legit hobbies, pugging is not good for the type of gameplay you are seeking. Just look at the "non rushers need to conform and adapt" nonsense attitudes posted in this thread for example.

    OTOH, with respect to the easier dungeons, you -can- generally get the flavor of the dungeon at least 50% of the time when there isn't a tryhard jerk rushing the team. So whether you do it is up to you. After 100s of dungeons tanked at this point, I wish I'd started earlier, tradeoffs and all. It's fun about 75% of the time. The other 25% are either rushers or dps so bad or new that the dungeon takes longer than 25-30 minutes.

  • azjuwelz
    azjuwelz
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    Even though I solo a lot, I have to support what others here have said about taking the plunge and joining a guild, even if it's only to meet 1 or 2 other like-minded players to do dungeons with.

    I recently started a magwarden healer, and through a casual, social guild found someone asking for low level characters to run dungeons so that he could learn tanking. A more experienced player brought on one of his dds alts, I joined in, and we ran some random dungeons. We actually had another low level dds added through the group finder, who decided to stick around once he saw what we were doing because he was new to the game in general. (Frankly he was the only one who needed healing, but it allowed me to get used to adding some dps while monitoring the tank's health).

    This setup worked especially well because the more experienced player could instruct the new tank on how to position bosses, pull adds, etc. And of course we gained Undaunted experience.
  • Heatnix90
    Heatnix90
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    @Recent remember to always thank your DPS for carrying you through content.

    "DPS are property, not actual people."
    Heatnix - NA/PC
    Chill Bros Chat Lounge
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    @DarcyMardin and I practice tanking with each other. That's an advantage of having a gamer wife. :)

    It's also a reminder that you don't need a full crew of four to do easy dungeons. All 16 of the base dungeons can be duoed just with a tank and with a damage dealer who also does some healing. That's true of some of the "2" dungeons as well, although those are likelier to have particular fights that frustrate weak groups.
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