Why DK's Wings Ulti Is Undodgeable?

ecru

Valencer wrote: »

uLtImAtEs ShOuLd NoT hAvE cOuNtErS

just block. i block most leaps unless they come from out of los.

leepalmer95

ecru wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

uLtImAtEs ShOuLd NoT hAvE cOuNtErS

just block. i block most leaps unless they come from out of los.

Its an instant skill, if they cast it point blank you can't really predict the leap in advance.

BlackMadara

leepalmer95 wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

uLtImAtEs ShOuLd NoT hAvE cOuNtErS

just block. i block most leaps unless they come from out of los.

Its an instant skill, if they cast it point blank you can't really predict the leap in advance.

I have blocked leap, and have had my leap blocked, point blank very consistently. It has a short, but apparent, cast animation and the damage doesnt apply until landing.

This is with little lag, but we should never balance things based on lag.

Alucardo

You can block it to mitigate a lot of the damage. So maybe instead of relying on dodge all of the time like the other monkeys you try blocking instead?
They made it undodgeable some time ago to keep it in line with all of the other AOE abilities in the game, and because it was just so predictable.

kalunte

"just block" is a troll answer, i've never been reading this when the mood was about nerfing incap to oblivion. even if it was dodgeable and single target and melee range on a relatively squishy class (even if you can turn it into a very tanky thing..)

just saying.

Alucardo

kalunte wrote: »

"just block" is a troll answer, i've never been reading this when the mood was about nerfing incap to oblivion. even if it was dodgeable and single target and melee range on a relatively squishy class (even if you can turn it into a very tanky thing..)

just saying.

How is it a troll answer? Block is there to be used when you expect high incoming damage, ie: ultimates. If you're complaining that leaps hit too hard and can't be dodged, then what's the next logical solution? Blocking. Do you want me to tell them to just bend over and take it?

Vapirko

Performance willing just block it. It will do almost nothingS

kalunte

Alucardo wrote: »

Block is there to be used when you expect high incoming damage

i didnt knew there was a warning for wings ult.

Also, talking about this being cast at range is trolling. dk are a melee class whatever playstyle you choose.

it is used from range because it's 30000% cheesy and cheep so there is no reason to savee it for a proper combo, if you do combo with it it's amazingly powerfull, if you choose to initiate with it only becomes absurdly powerfull. that's a fact.

Alucardo

kalunte wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Block is there to be used when you expect high incoming damage

i didnt knew there was a warning for wings ult.

You mean apart from their leaping, sprouting wings, and the loud roar? Yeah, not much.

Royalthought

kalunte wrote: »

"just block" is a troll answer, i've never been reading this when the mood was about nerfing incap to oblivion. even if it was dodgeable and single target and melee range on a relatively squishy class (even if you can turn it into a very tanky thing..)

just saying.

Good point.

Incap is blockable, dodgable, melee range with no range activation and can only hit a single target.

Yet no mercy when it came to nerfs.

Im not requesting nerfs for anything but I do see how certain arguments only apply when its convenient. lol

kalunte

@Alucardo so a 0 up to 250ms animation (exludind latency which is around an average 100ms for comon folks) is a fair warning to you.

lovely.

kalunte

and just in case you forget it:

"Made several changes to “Gap Closer” abilities:

Removed the snare applied from all abilities that deal with character charges, leaps, teleports, or other movements.

Drastically increased the speed of all of these abilities

Note: Dragon Leap and its morphs are an exclusion to some of these changes. They will continue to fire a snare, which has new visual effectcs introduced to it. This is due to the fact it cannot be used in quick succession compared to other instant cast abilities. Dragon Leap has had its speed increased as well"

oh well, no it's a fair skill, with more instant base dmg than any other ult in the game (along with the higher scaling of all instant dmg ult) including both single and aoe ult. really. 100% fair and fine for a cost of 110/125...

wheem_ESO

Alucardo wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Block is there to be used when you expect high incoming damage

i didnt knew there was a warning for wings ult.

You mean apart from their leaping, sprouting wings, and the loud roar? Yeah, not much.

Do you live next door to the server for your platform? For most people, it's not remotely realistic to purposefully block melee-range Leaps.

Lokey0024

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Block is there to be used when you expect high incoming damage

i didnt knew there was a warning for wings ult.

You mean apart from their leaping, sprouting wings, and the loud roar? Yeah, not much.

Do you live next door to the server for your platform? For most people, it's not remotely realistic to purposefully block melee-range Leaps.

So what your saying is you want less skill involved when fighting?

You do know prediction and assessment are skills, not game mechanics right?

Insco851

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Would use meteor if it had lower ult cost. Timing it with fossilize and lash/whip is alot easier.

Buddy of mine uses meteor on his mdk. Legit unfair sometimes lol. I’d argue it’s better than his leap combo in duels.

wheem_ESO

Lokey0024 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Block is there to be used when you expect high incoming damage

i didnt knew there was a warning for wings ult.

You mean apart from their leaping, sprouting wings, and the loud roar? Yeah, not much.

Do you live next door to the server for your platform? For most people, it's not remotely realistic to purposefully block melee-range Leaps.

So what your saying is you want less skill involved when fighting?

You do know prediction and assessment are skills, not game mechanics right?

I'm saying his argument that there was plenty of warning is bunk, especially when one accounts for latency.

Fights in Battlegrounds aren't the same as duels, by the way. Not every Leap is going to come as some sort of combo setup in a 1v1, and there's only so much Stamina most Mag builds can afford to use on blocking. Don't get me wrong, I've blocked Leaps, Incaps, Dawnbreakers, etc...lots of times, but the whole, "Just block it newb LOL" argument is unrealistic most of the time in BGs, especially since latency is a thing.

ecru

kalunte wrote: »

"just block" is a troll answer, i've never been reading this when the mood was about nerfing incap to oblivion. even if it was dodgeable and single target and melee range on a relatively squishy class (even if you can turn it into a very tanky thing..)

just saying.

it's not a troll answer. you can block most leaps that aren't in point blank range, and some that are. if you're facing off with a dk and you either get low or he gets low, expect to tap block a leap. you won't get every one, but you will get some. dawnbreaker is instant too, and does more damage, why is everyone so concerned with leap? it's an okay ult, but not for the reasons people are suggesting. i use it mostly defensively to get resources back and heal up, or to grab a kill that maybe just barely got away.

yes, there are situations where you will not be able to block a leap. so what? you can't counter an ult 100% of the time and have to eat the damage and stun, so what? it's an ult.

Alucardo

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Block is there to be used when you expect high incoming damage

i didnt knew there was a warning for wings ult.

You mean apart from their leaping, sprouting wings, and the loud roar? Yeah, not much.

Do you live next door to the server for your platform? For most people, it's not remotely realistic to purposefully block melee-range Leaps.

What can I say, years of gaming have honed my reflexes.

kalunte

@ecru

ecru wrote: »

it's not a troll answer. you can block most leaps that aren't in point blank range, and some that are. if you're facing off with a dk and you either get low or he gets low, expect to tap block a leap. you won't get every one, but you will get some. dawnbreaker is instant too, and does more damage, why is everyone so concerned with leap? it's an okay ult, but not for the reasons people are suggesting. i use it mostly defensively to get resources back and heal up, or to grab a kill that maybe just barely got away.

yes, there are situations where you will not be able to block a leap. so what? you can't counter an ult 100% of the time and have to eat the damage and stun, so what? it's an ult.

sorry but this is essentially false, dawnbreaker does less instant dmg than leap.

+ dawnbreaker is a cone aoe with a 10m range, not an 8m circle with 22m range (making it a 30m range dmg)

+ battle roar passive makes all ults on dks more powerfull than on any otherclass regardless of their effect. this should be taken into consideration when tweaking dks class ult.

finally, yes "just block" is definatly a troll answer since none of those here saying "'it's an ok ult, you can block it" were saying "just dodge or block it" when zeni was nerfing incap.

(ps: i dont need you to tell me when a dk can drop this ult, he can drop it whenever he wants, + he can use petrify to ensure a 100% non-blocked ult, a spell that cant be dodged nor blocked do you remember?)

jediodyn_ESO

Can you still animation cancel leap?

Maybe it’s lag on PS4 but sometimes it seems almost instant. The move itself is ok as long as you get a half a second to block it.

katorga

Frozen_Heart246 wrote: »

DK's hit's like a truck by it self and you can't dodge the wings ulti which hits even more?

Because you are supposed to block it, not dodge it.

Fur_like_snow

Sounds like slow internet/reaction speed might be more of the issue rather the ultimate itself. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Sanguinor2

kalunte wrote: »

sorry but this is essentially false, dawnbreaker does less instant dmg than leap.

+ dawnbreaker is a cone aoe with a 10m range, not an 8m circle with 22m range (making it a 30m range dmg)

+ battle roar passive makes all ults on dks more powerfull than on any otherclass regardless of their effect. this should be taken into consideration when tweaking dks class ult.

finally, yes "just block" is definatly a troll answer since none of those here saying "'it's an ok ult, you can block it" were saying "just dodge or block it" when zeni was nerfing incap.

(ps: i dont need you to tell me when a dk can drop this ult, he can drop it whenever he wants, + he can use petrify to ensure a 100% non-blocked ult, a spell that cant be dodged nor blocked do you remember?)

Battleroar doesnt make dk ults stronger. The only interaction battleroar has with ults is that dks get punished for Holding their ult for an opportune Moment since they loose 90% off their class Sustain for doing so.
Battleroar is dks class Sustain and one that has lost much of its previous strength unless you are a tank.

wheem_ESO

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

Sounds like slow internet/reaction speed might be more of the issue rather the ultimate itself. 🤷🏼‍♂️

One doesn't need "slow" internet or reaction speed to be unable to reliably block melee-range leaps. If you'd like to prove me wrong, lets see a montage of you successfully blocking lots of Leaps while in melee range and not dueling.

If people were complaining about Meteor, these "just block it" arguments would have a whole lot more validity (except, ironically, in the case of it being used by a DK with unblockable and undodgeable CC). Some ultimates have a lot of viable counters, while others don't - Leap fits much more neatly into the second category.

My main gripe with Leap is still the snare, especially with how long the duration can be when used from range. And sure, that makes the Leap itself easy to block, but it also means you're forced to block everything else being thrown by the DK's teammates while you're completely unable to escape or re-position (at least when you're a non-Sorc Magicka class).

Fur_like_snow

So your complaining about not being able to block an ultimate while engaged in melee while also 1vXing? Gotcha.

wheem_ESO

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

So your complaining about not being able to block an ultimate while engaged in melee while also 1vXing? Gotcha.

Nope.

ZOS implemented these things known as "Battlegrounds" back when the Morrowind Chapter was released, and that's primarily what I'm referring to, though it sometimes applies in Cyrodiil as well. Either way, it doesn't necessarily mean "1vX'ing" at all...especially since that's not a thing in BGs unless a good player gets put into a low MMR match.

kalunte

@Sanguinor2 not 100% you're sure? try to be serious if not accurate.

it is still a fact, regardless of dks overall ressource recovery, battle roar makes each ult better. the more they cost, the more they're buffed, but they are buffed in any case.

Sanguinor2

kalunte wrote: »

@Sanguinor2 not 100% you're sure? try to be serious if not accurate.

it is still a fact, regardless of dks overall ressource recovery, battle roar makes each ult better. the more they cost, the more they're buffed, but they are buffed in any case.

Battleroar is simply the resource recovery tool for dks and nothing more. It doesnt increase Damage, it doesnt reduce cost, it doesnt give any buff or debuff for casting an ult again it is simply the resource recovery tool of a dk. All other classes have their own way of recovering resources just because of dark conversion/dark deal existing doesnt mean that sorcerer channels are buffed, they are simply the condition to restoring resources.
If you were to take away the battleroar resource recovery then 1st battleroar would be dead since it would do literally do Nothing and 2nd dk would have next to no resource recovery from its class toolkit. Again, it doesnt buff ults, ults are just the condition to getting resources back.

Running a highcost ult just because of battleroar doesnt make it better. If you Need resources quick you Need to fire an ult since you cant get them anywhere else outside of heavy attack or very lackluster combustion passive and if you want to time an ult but Need resources for more pressure, healing, whatever you either have to stop and heavy attack, pray to have a potion up, call your pocket healer which you most likely dont have or fire your ult and loose a burst opportunity just because you needed resources.

In PvE dks run banner of might, a high cost ultimate, simply because it is the best damagewise. In PvP strangely enough I dont see dks running warhorn or banner of might just so they can restore more resources, one might almost think that ult cost doesnt matter that much since you also Need to build it up and the resource return values are fixed to X resources per ultimate Point so if you use 2 leaps on 125 ult and 1 warhorn at 250 ult you get the exact same amount of resources.

@kalunte

Davadin

kalunte wrote: »

@ecru

ecru wrote: »

it's not a troll answer. you can block most leaps that aren't in point blank range, and some that are. if you're facing off with a dk and you either get low or he gets low, expect to tap block a leap. you won't get every one, but you will get some. dawnbreaker is instant too, and does more damage, why is everyone so concerned with leap? it's an okay ult, but not for the reasons people are suggesting. i use it mostly defensively to get resources back and heal up, or to grab a kill that maybe just barely got away.

yes, there are situations where you will not be able to block a leap. so what? you can't counter an ult 100% of the time and have to eat the damage and stun, so what? it's an ult.

sorry but this is essentially false, dawnbreaker does less instant dmg than leap.

yes, but give it a few seconds, it'll be more damage than leap.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Block is there to be used when you expect high incoming damage

i didnt knew there was a warning for wings ult.

You mean apart from their leaping, sprouting wings, and the loud roar? Yeah, not much.

Do you live next door to the server for your platform? For most people, it's not remotely realistic to purposefully block melee-range Leaps.

my ping is 130 - 260, and i can still see a leap coming, hold my mouse's right button, and mitigate half the damage...

kalunte wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Block is there to be used when you expect high incoming damage

i didnt knew there was a warning for wings ult.

it jumps over 10 ft in the air and sprouts a huge pair of wings.

even in melee range, if u don't see that as a warning, u may want to try paying more attention.

MisterBigglesworth

As mentioned, it's an AOE and this is why it cannot be dodged.
However, it does require a target in order to cast, so I think it should be modified so that half it's damage comes in the form of a single target attack (which then does cleave damage to nearby targets) and the other half of the damage should be either a ground effect or point blank AOE. Any way you slice it, the total overall damage would be the same, but if you dodge the damage is halved. I think this would be a fair trade-off.