EVERYONE, read TOS before complain about performance!

Skwor

The_Lex wrote: »

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

Why is so many poeple thing that a tos have the force of a law ?

Because TOS has been enforced before in litigation (certain provisions anyway). Facebook has been the primary winner of many of these fights. Not all fights. But a TOS is usually challenged, not as a whole, but certain parts.

Skwor wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Without having done much research on the matter, and without providing any legal legal opinions (consult with an attorney if you want one), the implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose under UCC 2 can be expressly disclaimed in some jurisdictions. But it's harder to do with online services than it is for anything else.

But this is an evolving area of the law. It's a situation where our legal principles have not kept pace with our technological innovations and advancement.

Yes but that current TOS statement effectively says if you buy the game and it does not work, even due to our equipment issues, you have no recourse.

That is not enforceable contract langage in most western nations. Not to mention the issue of its vagueness on what responsibilities are included/excluded

I don;t disagree with you. And to be clear, I am not in support of language like this.

However, I do want to play the game, so I accepted the TOS, logged in, and played. I knew the risks. I wanted to play.

Lol same. Just being pedantic. The possibilty of this ever going to court is as probable as either of us winning the lottery.

Bhaal5

Env_t wrote: »

i just found this pretty clear part of a ToS
no more questions to Zenimax

NO WARRANTY IS GIVEN ABOUT THE QUALITY, FUNCTIONALITY, AVAILABILITY OR PERFORMANCE OF THE SERVICES. ZENIMAX DOES NOT ASSUME LIABILITY FOR ANY INABILITY BY YOU TO ACCESS OR USE ANY SERVICES. ZENIMAX DOES NOT GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ACCESS OR USE SERVICES AT TIMES OR LOCATIONS OF YOUR CHOOSING, OR THAT ZENIMAX WILL HAVE ADEQUATE CAPACITY FOR SERVICES AS A WHOLE OR IN ANY SPECIFIC GEOGRAPHIC AREA.

Also in most countries its trade practice when suppling a 'goods' that it be in working order before selling them
And
Under some trade laws, products must preform to an acceptable standard other wise they may be in breach of these laws. No ToS can worm their way out of it.

The_Lex

Skwor wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

Why is so many poeple thing that a tos have the force of a law ?

Because TOS has been enforced before in litigation (certain provisions anyway). Facebook has been the primary winner of many of these fights. Not all fights. But a TOS is usually challenged, not as a whole, but certain parts.

Skwor wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Without having done much research on the matter, and without providing any legal legal opinions (consult with an attorney if you want one), the implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose under UCC 2 can be expressly disclaimed in some jurisdictions. But it's harder to do with online services than it is for anything else.

But this is an evolving area of the law. It's a situation where our legal principles have not kept pace with our technological innovations and advancement.

Yes but that current TOS statement effectively says if you buy the game and it does not work, even due to our equipment issues, you have no recourse.

That is not enforceable contract langage in most western nations. Not to mention the issue of its vagueness on what responsibilities are included/excluded

I don;t disagree with you. And to be clear, I am not in support of language like this.

However, I do want to play the game, so I accepted the TOS, logged in, and played. I knew the risks. I wanted to play.

Lol same. Just being pedantic. The possibilty of this ever going to court is as probable as either of us winning the lottery.

Agreed

ArenGesus

I love how everybody is arguing whether the tos will stand up in court, when what OP said is stop complaining - not to stop asking for refunds.

TOS is irrelevant with regard to complaints. And I, for one, am going to continue to do it while I haven't received what I believe to be what I paid for, irrespective of tos or the opinions of others.

Skwor

ArenGesus wrote: »

I love how everybody is arguing whether the tos will stand up in court, when what OP said is stop complaining - not to stop asking for refunds.

TOS is irrelevant with regard to complaints. And I, for one, am going to continue to do it while I haven't received what I believe to be what I paid for, irrespective of tos or the opinions of others.

The reason for the legal wrangling is becuase the OPs implication is to stop complaing (next is implied) "you have no legal recourse."

Env_t

frostz417 wrote: »

You’re what’s wrong with this game.

why

Sansoul

Hey guys, I read the ToS about performance and it still sucks badly.

What should I try now?

Sansoul

david_m_18b16_ESO wrote: »

Why is so many poeple thing that a tos have the force of a law ?

Because they are brainwashed sheep that follow the herd.

BrooksP

TOS doesn't grant immunity from criticism, only legal action, and even then TOSs have been ignored before in legal cases.

Sansoul

ArenGesus wrote: »

I love how everybody is arguing whether the tos will stand up in court, when what OP said is stop complaining - not to stop asking for refunds.

TOS is irrelevant with regard to complaints. And I, for one, am going to continue to do it while I haven't received what I believe to be what I paid for, irrespective of tos or the opinions of others.

I wrote an in-depth letter about how gaming companies are hiding behind legal non-sense while selling people goods that don't perform as advertised citing a ton of real-world examples from game releases of the last 10 years. Including responses I've gotten from support staff denying refunds, documentation detailing how the games don't work and/or perform. Even included a dvd with video clips I've made supporting my complaint. I've sent this package to numerous senators and congressmen over the last year. I even met a guy here in the Bay Area running for a House seat in 2020 and discussed this with him and I'm hoping he gets elected because he's vowed to bring this to the attention to as many people as he can as well.

I'm really hoping our legislative body looks at this. Nearly every other industry in this country is protected against shady stuff like this. We need a lemon law for software - it's way way way overdue.

BigBragg

ZOS doesn't need anyone standing up for them when it come to providing a substandard product that we have all paid for. They have two whole departems, legal and marketing that we have also financed, to do that for them. So please players, stand up for yourselves and what you want first. Thanks.

ArenGesus

Skwor wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

I love how everybody is arguing whether the tos will stand up in court, when what OP said is stop complaining - not to stop asking for refunds.

TOS is irrelevant with regard to complaints. And I, for one, am going to continue to do it while I haven't received what I believe to be what I paid for, irrespective of tos or the opinions of others.

The reason for the legal wrangling is becuase the OPs implication is to stop complaing (next is implied) "you have no legal recourse."

Right, but complaining isn't a part of legal recourse. Anyway, I don't want legal recourse. I don't even want a refund. I want zos to face the fact that they aren't delivering what I've paid for every time they look at the forums and reddit and streamer yt comments and product review pages. I want zos to see a growing voice of concern that will soon be impossible for other gamers, deciding whether to invest in the game themselves, to ignore while wondering to themselves if eso will give them what they're looking for given how salty the vets seem to be. And I want to make it so zos finds it impossible to ignore the questioning of that new potential player-base and is forced to alleviate the cause of those complaints so they can maintain a future stream of revenue.

I'm sure I won't achieve any of that (especially given how long the line of shills is vying for the opportunity to wash Matt Firor's car), but it's a little cathartic to try and the TOS doesn't limit my ability to do so.

LucyferLightbringer

If you are unhappy with TOS fight back. Reach out to your local seantors. They fight lootboxes. Maybe they can fight against unfair TOS as well.

The_Lex

Despite my opinions on the TOS, I won't stop griping about performance. No one can deny that performance has been atrocious since Elsweyr dropped.

TOS and legal opinions notwithstanding, the best way for ZOS to move on this is if people strenuously voice their concerns on public forums (and on other places besides the official forums).

Strider__Roshin

So another words "you can buy our product, but we're not held responsible if it doesn't work".

This is why ESO is my side game.

frostz417

Env_t wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

You’re what’s wrong with this game.

why

The fact that you have the audacity to even tell us that it’s not zos’s fault and to stop complaining about a pathetically broken game. Zos white knights are the reason why this game is in such a pathetic state.
Maybe if you did something other than role play in your house you’d see how atrociously laggy this game is.
But let me guess “it’s your internet”

xMovingTarget

So we take the bad state the product is in we pay for as granted and hand out hugs for it?

If the product does not work properly, I want a refund or replace it with something that works properly.

atm, eso is a car without wheels and brakes.

The wheels are the server performace and the brakes are all the gamebreaking bugs.

Facefister

ToS doesn't supersede local laws. Even if the probability of someone taking this to the court is extremely low but it can happen it can also happen that some politician may use this for his/her own campaign. I am not a law expert, but the unfunctionality of game features with the combination of ESO+ can be classified as a scam?

ArenGesus

Facefister wrote: »

ToS doesn't supersede local laws. Even if the probability of someone taking this to the court is extremely low but it can happen it can also happen that some politician may use this for his/her own campaign. I am not a law expert, but the unfunctionality of game features with the combination of ESO+ can be classified as a scam?

Feels like a scam to me.

Wolfpaw

TOS means nothing to me, it's just lawyer speak for an industry where laws have yet to catch-up.

I'm not a big goverment type of guy, but it's time for some regulations. Best practices in the gaming industry such as functional/performance testing, gambling, false advertising/marketing, etc...

If that means some games will be shut down..so be it.

srfrogg23

BrooksP wrote: »

TOS doesn't grant immunity from criticism, only legal action, and even then TOSs have been ignored before in legal cases.

^This.

A TOS is tantamount to saying, "uh huh! I called shotgun first! It doesn't matter that you made it to the passenger seat first!".

If a TOS is, for lack of better term, stupid or unrealistic, then it can be considered unenforceable.

Env_t

Wolfpaw wrote: »

TOS means nothing to me

and you signed it lol

evoniee

stop spending money on them so they can rellize how bad their decision

Tommy_The_Gun

Env_t wrote: »

i just found this pretty clear part of a ToS
no more questions to Zenimax

NO WARRANTY IS GIVEN ABOUT THE QUALITY, FUNCTIONALITY, AVAILABILITY OR PERFORMANCE OF THE SERVICES. ZENIMAX DOES NOT ASSUME LIABILITY FOR ANY INABILITY BY YOU TO ACCESS OR USE ANY SERVICES. ZENIMAX DOES NOT GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ACCESS OR USE SERVICES AT TIMES OR LOCATIONS OF YOUR CHOOSING, OR THAT ZENIMAX WILL HAVE ADEQUATE CAPACITY FOR SERVICES AS A WHOLE OR IN ANY SPECIFIC GEOGRAPHIC AREA.

Instead of patching the game and fixing it, they patched TOS (Terms of Service)...

barney2525

Hard to say what this specific intent is. It can be read as a disclaimer against issues on the Player end rather than issues of the server.

Minno

sounds like ZOS found the cost efficient fix for the lag problem lol. #lawyered

Uryel

Env_t wrote: »

i just found this pretty clear part of a ToS
no more questions to Zenimax

NO WARRANTY IS GIVEN ABOUT THE QUALITY, FUNCTIONALITY, AVAILABILITY OR PERFORMANCE OF THE SERVICES. ZENIMAX DOES NOT ASSUME LIABILITY FOR ANY INABILITY BY YOU TO ACCESS OR USE ANY SERVICES. ZENIMAX DOES NOT GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ACCESS OR USE SERVICES AT TIMES OR LOCATIONS OF YOUR CHOOSING, OR THAT ZENIMAX WILL HAVE ADEQUATE CAPACITY FOR SERVICES AS A WHOLE OR IN ANY SPECIFIC GEOGRAPHIC AREA.

Yeah, as with every online game /service ever. They have no obligation to fix it.

And we have no obligation to pay for it either. If they don't want my money, they can let the servers die and rot. If they want my money, they would better start fixing them and some major bugs. Simple as that. No obligations anywhere, just mutual benefits.

Jhalin

Every game review site should have a metric ton of complaints reported in reviews of this game.

It’s nonfunctional in many aspects, the communication between devs and players is basically nonexistent, bugs that have been here since beta still exist often worse than they were before, lag isn’t only getting worse, errors found on the PTS nearly always end up in the live release and persist for months after if there ever get fixed at all, bug that appeared in older content are reproduced in later content (Caan, Elsweyr WB) with no fix on the way, and the dev team claims to be making fixes when absolutely no fixes have actually been implemented.

There’s no evidence of money being put into improving the abysmal game performance. There is no communication aside from one or two non-NA community managers that will give info.

david_m_18b16_ESO

BrooksP wrote: »

TOS doesn't grant immunity from criticism, only legal action, and even then TOSs have been ignored before in legal cases.

TOS doesn't grant immunity from legal action.

MrSinister213

OP probably thinks its okay for police in the USA to kill homeless and minorities too because they had it coming.