The update on the API was a repeat. Can we have an ETA? Here's the impact.

StabbityDoom

The "we're still working on it" from today's patch notes gave no ETA nor any acknowledgement of the direness of the situation. I am again asking, can we have an update, not just a repetition of what was previously said?

I've gone to the trouble of collecting some quotes from people in our community that demonstrates what's been said. I'm not including names. I have also left out any of the quitting/will quit stuff, because that could be interpreted as a goodbye thread - and I don't want to violate any rules. The purpose of me doing this is to give you information you can bring to the higher ups to show them just how important this is to a huge portion of the community. If anyone wishes to add to this thread with their own feelings, please do.

Please take this issue very, very seriously and solve it ASAP.

This is the impact in the community, the things people are saying to each other.

Here is just a sampling of what I’m seeing/hearing. These are all different people. ALL of this is because of the API/ MM issue:

"This guild - trading guild - pretty much is what keeps my hiatuses from being more than a few months."

"I have been playing FFXIV for the time being."

"Not going to lie, that will render this game unplayable for me. I was just like... "well, there goes my ability to enjoyably play the game" with the first post"

"With all the problems zos isn't fixing, and now guild history gone, it's getting not fun anymore."

"And 'for now' I turned off my crown store purchases:) New furniture pack+ Iron training dummy + new hairless kitty:) I bit more than 10k crowns. And add the same pack for my husband + new fluffy banker and merchant:) In total 30 k crowns we won't spend:) ***. Somebody doing a good business here. I'm very grateful for saving me a bit of money, ZOS."

"I don't like giving money to a company that sees me as both a cash cow and a slave."

"The thing I love most about the game is trading - with addons. someone else: Ditto."

"Either way if things don't go back to the way they were, 500 people are probably going to be without a guild soon."

I cannot count how many people are saying "I'm just tired of this game right now."

"I'm not even inclined to really play right now with this mess going on".

"that was the straw to break this camel's back"

"Not having mm working has severely impacted my enjoyment of this game"

--
I have done my best not to violate any forum rules with this post. What I am doing is trying to give @ZOS_GinaBruno and any other community reps the information they can take to the rest of ZOS to know that we need this back asap. Beyond that, it would help if it were communicated to us an ETA and that it is understood and acknowledged how important and crucial this is to many guilds and players.

Thank you for listening and I hope this is taken in the tone it is meant, a serious and desperate plea.

BrianLovesLisa

All I see in this post is "we need addons to be able to trade at all"

VaranisArano

BrianLovesLisa wrote: »

All I see in this post is "we need addons to be able to trade at all"

You don't need addons to be able to trade.
You don't need add-ons to run a trading guild.
Console does it all the time, and in the other threads, we've had console plyers explain how they do it (and how they would really like better base game tools, please, ZOS.)

Its much more time consuming for traders and guild officers, but its not at all impossible.

You DO need addons to run a PC trading Guild as PC guilds have grown up with add-ons.

That's because the addons allow PC Guilds to use sales requirements as a criteria for membership, instead of just mandatory raffles, donations, or weekly fees. Without add-ons, its effectively impossible to use sales as a measure of player participation.

So without add-ons, PC trading guilds lose that option for players. It forces guilds to require mandatory raffles or fees.


The answer to the Guild problem is that ZOS needs to create better base game guild management tools for Console AND PC. From what they've said in other threads, Console GMs woukd love the accounting tools PC GMs have access to.

Unij

Since we can't use our trading addons anymore I refuse to list anything of worth. At the moment I'm selling only mats I know the prices for. Will wait and maybe stop playing till we have our addons back - because it's too time consuming to compare prices without. I increased my donations to my trade guilds because I don't want them to loose the traders. But that makes the trading worthless, because it costs sometimes more than you earn.

Also without addons prices will rise, just compare it to consoles, their prices are like up to 10x higher and it's harder to find anything.

BrianLovesLisa

Unij wrote: »

Since we can't use our trading addons anymore I refuse to list anything of worth. At the moment I'm selling only mats I know the prices for. Will wait and maybe stop playing till we have our addons back - because it's too time consuming to compare prices without. I increased my donations to my trade guilds because I don't want them to loose the traders. But that makes the trading worthless, because it costs sometimes more than you earn.

Also without addons prices will rise, just compare it to consoles, their prices are like up to 10x higher and it's harder to find anything.

Unij wrote: »

Since we can't use our trading addons anymore I refuse to list anything of worth. At the moment I'm selling only mats I know the prices for. Will wait and maybe stop playing till we have our addons back - because it's too time consuming to compare prices without. I increased my donations to my trade guilds because I don't want them to loose the traders. But that makes the trading worthless, because it costs sometimes more than you earn.

Also without addons prices will rise, just compare it to consoles, their prices are like up to 10x higher and it's harder to find anything.

here's a tissue if you can't trade with out ATT or MM then that is a YOU issue.

Amarlado

Of course I can trade without MM. Guilds can of course be run without data extraction tools. I can also walk ten miles to work every day, cook with only a wood-burning fire with wood cut with my own hands with an ax forged on my own. That doesn't mean I'm particularly looking forward to the idea.

Kidgangster101

Amarlado wrote: »

Of course I can trade without MM. Guilds can of course be run without data extraction tools. I can also walk ten miles to work every day, cook with only a wood-burning fire with wood cut with my own hands with an ax forged on my own. That doesn't mean I'm particularly looking forward to the idea.

Welcome to the life of console players 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 but I thought this guild trader system was so amazing and innovating though 😂😂😂😂😂😂

Kidgangster101

StabbityDoom wrote: »

The "we're still working on it" from today's patch notes gave no ETA nor any acknowledgement of the direness of the situation. I am again asking, can we have an update, not just a repetition of what was previously said?

I've gone to the trouble of collecting some quotes from people in our community that demonstrates what's been said. I'm not including names. I have also left out any of the quitting/will quit stuff, because that could be interpreted as a goodbye thread - and I don't want to violate any rules. The purpose of me doing this is to give you information you can bring to the higher ups to show them just how important this is to a huge portion of the community. If anyone wishes to add to this thread with their own feelings, please do.

Please take this issue very, very seriously and solve it ASAP.

This is the impact in the community, the things people are saying to each other.

Here is just a sampling of what I’m seeing/hearing. These are all different people. ALL of this is because of the API/ MM issue:

"This guild - trading guild - pretty much is what keeps my hiatuses from being more than a few months."

"I have been playing FFXIV for the time being."

"Not going to lie, that will render this game unplayable for me. I was just like... "well, there goes my ability to enjoyably play the game" with the first post"

"With all the problems zos isn't fixing, and now guild history gone, it's getting not fun anymore."

"And 'for now' I turned off my crown store purchases:) New furniture pack+ Iron training dummy + new hairless kitty:) I bit more than 10k crowns. And add the same pack for my husband + new fluffy banker and merchant:) In total 30 k crowns we won't spend:) ***. Somebody doing a good business here. I'm very grateful for saving me a bit of money, ZOS."

"I don't like giving money to a company that sees me as both a cash cow and a slave."

"The thing I love most about the game is trading - with addons. someone else: Ditto."

"Either way if things don't go back to the way they were, 500 people are probably going to be without a guild soon."

I cannot count how many people are saying "I'm just tired of this game right now."

"I'm not even inclined to really play right now with this mess going on".

"that was the straw to break this camel's back"

"Not having mm working has severely impacted my enjoyment of this game"

--
I have done my best not to violate any forum rules with this post. What I am doing is trying to give @ZOS_GinaBruno and any other community reps the information they can take to the rest of ZOS to know that we need this back asap. Beyond that, it would help if it were communicated to us an ETA and that it is understood and acknowledged how important and crucial this is to many guilds and players.

Thank you for listening and I hope this is taken in the tone it is meant, a serious and desperate plea.

Hmm well at least the players that went to ff14 are smart, they have a global auction house data center wide that allows them to not worry about any problems lol.

Again stop supporting this broken trader system and just use global ah so everyone can enjoy the trading system lol. But yet people are against it 😉

Alienoutlaw

for a list of quotes NOT containing "goodbye threads" i think you kinda missed the mark, essentially thats all it was

Huyen

VaranisArano wrote: »

BrianLovesLisa wrote: »

All I see in this post is "we need addons to be able to trade at all"

You don't need addons to be able to trade.
You don't need add-ons to run a trading guild.
Console does it all the time, and in the other threads, we've had console plyers explain how they do it (and how they would really like better base game tools, please, ZOS.)

Its much more time consuming for traders and guild officers, but its not at all impossible.

You DO need addons to run a PC trading Guild as PC guilds have grown up with add-ons.

That's because the addons allow PC Guilds to use sales requirements as a criteria for membership, instead of just mandatory raffles, donations, or weekly fees. Without add-ons, its effectively impossible to use sales as a measure of player participation.

So without add-ons, PC trading guilds lose that option for players. It forces guilds to require mandatory raffles or fees.


The answer to the Guild problem is that ZOS needs to create better base game guild management tools for Console AND PC. From what they've said in other threads, Console GMs woukd love the accounting tools PC GMs have access to.

I played ESO both on PC and PS4 and trust me when I say that trading with addons like MM and such are a lot nicer then trading without addons...Thats why I didnt bother at all on my PS4 account.

agegarton

I'd like to add my voice to this. The message by OP @StabbityDoom and very sensible comments from @VaranisArano and @Amarlado are absolutely right.

The huge PC trading guilds work precisely because of the add-on functions. Large numbers of players enjoy trade using the add-ons that are available. I know that I traded less last week that I have in months - I had no clue of my trade levels and many people weren't buying because they couldn't be sure of pricing. So, I saved items for this week instead, hoping for a fix. When I trade less, I play less.

But let's be honest: the main issue here is that this is another bodge by ZoS. It's the login queue all over again. It's the LFG tool that has never worked, so we'll limit its function until one day we get around to it. It's the new communication strategy that we'll announce, but never did. It's Cyrodill that if we stay silent about for long enough, people will just shut up about it. In short, it's just unacceptable. This is NOT simply about Trade and Trade Guilds - if you think it is, you haven't been paying attention.

Pevey

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Amarlado wrote: »

Of course I can trade without MM. Guilds can of course be run without data extraction tools. I can also walk ten miles to work every day, cook with only a wood-burning fire with wood cut with my own hands with an ax forged on my own. That doesn't mean I'm particularly looking forward to the idea.

Welcome to the life of console players 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 but I thought this guild trader system was so amazing and innovating though 😂😂😂😂😂😂

Not all of us who care very much about this issue prefer guild traders over an auction house. Just look at my post history.

But it is the system we have, and ZOS has turned off a major feature (api access).

That is what this thread is about.

reprosal

PC prices are cheaper than console prices because it is much easier for bots to flood the market. Stop being delusional.

StabbityDoom

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

for a list of quotes NOT containing "goodbye threads" i think you kinda missed the mark, essentially thats all it was

No, I deleted about 20 goodbyes. These were people expressing being angry and fed up with the system. That is NOT the same thing.

RANKK7

So, still not word about re-enabling the functionality for addons to get sales history, it's totally unknown what are the plans about it and no ETA, as many of us guessed and feared there is silence.

@ZOS give us an update please ffs! I don't think you realize the awful impact of this on trading, not yet, you will eventually, it went from a nice and lively activity to a boring and dull one, too many people aren't happy about it and losing interest.

VaranisArano

reprosal wrote: »

PC prices are cheaper than console prices because it is much easier for bots to flood the market. Stop being delusional.

That would only be true for items that are easily farmable by bots.

TempusFugit

I posted in another similar thread by adding my request, with those listed, that @ZOS please restore API access to Guild History so that Master Merchant and other similar addons can function normally again. Needless to say the import that MM and similar addons have on PC ESO player Traders and their Guilds.

Thanking you in advance.

Knowledge

Isn't there another thread exactly like this? At any rate, as I've said before, the console players don't have this functionality and millions of people on Xbox and Playstation go without it. I do understand it's not fun for you right now but also keep in mind that the world isn't ending. I am sure ZeniMax is working to resolve the issue. But for the time being perhaps consider consulting the console players for information. Perhaps they can explain a way to run trading guilds without the API.

therift

Knowledge wrote: »

Isn't there another thread exactly like this? At any rate, as I've said before, the console players don't have this functionality and millions of people on Xbox and Playstation go without it. I do understand it's not fun for you right now but also keep in mind that the world isn't ending. I am sure ZeniMax is working to resolve the issue. But for the time being perhaps consider consulting the console players for information. Perhaps they can explain a way to run trading guilds without the API.

We console guilds have no other choice.

We also have no option for a sales supported guild, as the raw data provided to us in Purchase History would require a 24/7 team of clerks to manually transcribe and compile.

Using the console environment as a basis to argue that add-ons are not needed is a classic straw man fallacy, because the actual issue is that PC trade guild accounting systems are built on the compiled data managed by add-ons and not the raw data console trade guilds are forced to use.

Knowledge

therift wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Isn't there another thread exactly like this? At any rate, as I've said before, the console players don't have this functionality and millions of people on Xbox and Playstation go without it. I do understand it's not fun for you right now but also keep in mind that the world isn't ending. I am sure ZeniMax is working to resolve the issue. But for the time being perhaps consider consulting the console players for information. Perhaps they can explain a way to run trading guilds without the API.

We console guilds have no other choice.

We also have no option for a sales supported guild, as the raw data provided to us in Purchase History would require a 24/7 team of clerks to manually transcribe and compile.

Using the console environment as a basis to argue that add-ons are not needed is a classic straw man fallacy, because the actual issue is that PC trade guild accounting systems are built on the compiled data managed by add-ons and not the raw data console trade guilds are forced to use.

Right, I am suggesting to operate differently in the interim. Also, I see straw man thrown around here a lot and it seems wholly inaccurate? Which definition are you applying to me?

1. That I am intentionally misrepresenting the proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than the opponent's real argument? - This can't be accurate as I am not trying to defeat an argument. I am merely suggesting an alternative solution to a problem I also agree is a problem.

Or

2. a person regarded as having no substance or integrity. - If this is the case it's a baseless attack that doesn't really make much sense.


I don't think straw man is being used correctly.

Dont_do_drugs

Knowledge wrote: »

Isn't there another thread exactly like this? At any rate, as I've said before, the console players don't have this functionality and millions of people on Xbox and Playstation go without it. I do understand it's not fun for you right now but also keep in mind that the world isn't ending. I am sure ZeniMax is working to resolve the issue. But for the time being perhaps consider consulting the console players for information. Perhaps they can explain a way to run trading guilds without the API.

Just some serious words about it: I dont like the comparrisons between console and pc. Next to what others said, the pc community grew another way of managing the guilds than console i highly dislike, that you're not having access to guild managing tools like seeing the sales data of your guild as gm as example at least. For simple reasons:

A trade guild is supposed to trade. Its getting income by taxes. This is the core design of the trade system. Sure there is also donation available, but its hard to keep track of it as well next to the intransparancy of that donation system. A gm can tell his people always he needs to bid quadrillion of gold and that he needs 25 of 50k in donations. is it true? and who can see, wether the spot is really worth the gold, wether there isnt another hub with better access?

After all, we are running trading guilds, not donating guilds. I find nothing more wrong than expecting my people to put gold into my guild bank to be allowed to trade in my guild - while beeing not able to provide my people numbers, that the spot is worth beeing in the guild, while not beeing able to provide at least some base comparrison numbers. as someone else already mentioned, the pc guilds mainly grew a trade OR donate system (most do not care too much, but i also tend to pay donations back if i recognize someone paying all the time while not making use of trading and send him to a more casual friendly guild then), not a donate to trade system. If the last happened on a long term, i will sign out of this system and i will sign my guilds out of it as well, because i do not want them to bend to that broken changes, especially since i find such system shamefull - and i dont want such kind of shame on my name or the name of my guilds. sounds melodamatic, maybe - but to me, its just plain wrong. i dont want people to pay my guilds bids, i want them to trade and get gold by successfully trading and to be happy happy happy with their gold.


edit: next to that since there are no tools to check prices on consoles, as i remember consoles have been hit in the past by a lot of "unfair" activities, longer and more intense than the pcs. did u ever even give a thought, that this might have something to do with people not beeing able to check a guilds performance and their status, with people not beeing able to compare prices in a good way?

Knowledge

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Isn't there another thread exactly like this? At any rate, as I've said before, the console players don't have this functionality and millions of people on Xbox and Playstation go without it. I do understand it's not fun for you right now but also keep in mind that the world isn't ending. I am sure ZeniMax is working to resolve the issue. But for the time being perhaps consider consulting the console players for information. Perhaps they can explain a way to run trading guilds without the API.

Just some serious words about it: I dont like the comparrisons between console and pc. Next to what others said, the pc community grew another way of managing the guilds than console i highly dislike, that you're not having access to guild managing tools like seeing the sales data of your guild as gm as example at least. For simple reasons:

A trade guild is supposed to trade. Its getting income by taxes. This is the core design of the trade system. Sure there is also donation available, but its hard to keep track of it as well next to the intransparancy of that donation system. A gm can tell his people always he needs to bid quadrillion of gold and that he needs 25 of 50k in donations. is it true? and who can see, wether the spot is really worth the gold, wether there isnt another hub with better access?

After all, we are running trading guilds, not donating guilds. I find nothing more wrong than expecting my people to put gold into my guild bank to be allowed to trade in my guild - while beeing not able to provide my people numbers, that the spot is worth beeing in the guild, while not beeing able to provide at least some base comparrison numbers. as someone else already mentioned, the pc guilds mainly grew a trade OR donate system (most do not care too much, but i also tend to pay donations back if i recognize someone paying all the time while not making use of trading and send him to a more casual friendly guild then), not a donate to trade system. If the last happened on a long term, i will sign out of this system and i will sign my guilds out of it as well, because i do not want them to bend to that broken changes, especially since i find such system shamefull - and i dont want such kind of shame on my name or the name of my guilds. sounds melodamatic, maybe - but to me, its just plain wrong. i dont want people to pay my guilds bids, i want them to trade and get gold by successfully trading and to be happy happy happy with their gold.

What you're failing to consider here is that unlike consoles the addons hurt the small guy by increasing the bidding competition among guilds. It also increased individual profits forcing guilds on the PC to take in donations in order to deal with the ever increasing competition.

The trade guild battle has now required addons to compete in due to the extremely high volume of sales garnered from addons and websites. The flow of gold on PC is much higher than console.

This game was meant to be playable without addons.

BigBragg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOCD_Jzre3c

Dont_do_drugs

from what i remember from the forums, whatever you say about it - the consoles situation regarding trade guild is much worse. empty guilds, threats, complaints about mafia structure, heavy price pushes. i mean sometimes there are complaints about it from other servers as well, but i never recognized it that much and with that itnensity like on consoles. next to that the prices are better on a lot of items due to addon help on pc, which helps people getting faster access to items for end content as well. and no its not increasing the bidding competition. after all the pc eu still has the most moderate donation-rules in trading of all servers from what i recognize in the forums. we do not have 20 or 25k donation/fees, the max i ever heard of was 10k. even the top trading guilds only charge in case of a failed trading week (trade OR donate) max 5k, one or two 10k. but this only, if sales requirements not met, which doesnt happen for most people in such guild. so pls tell me more about forcing high donations to deal competition.

Knowledge

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

from what i remember from the forums, whatever you say about it - the consoles situation regarding trade guild is much worse. empty guilds, threats, complaints about mafia structure, heavy price pushes. i mean sometimes there are complaints about it from other servers as well, but i never recognized it that much and with that itnensity like on consoles. next to that the prices are better on a lot of items due to addon help on pc, which helps people getting faster access to items for end content as well. and no its not increasing the bidding competition. after all the pc eu still has the most moderate donation-rules in trading of all servers from what i recognize in the forums. we do not have 20 or 25k donation/fees, the max i ever heard of was 10k. even the top trading guilds only charge in case of a failed trading week (trade OR donate) max 5k, one or two 10k. but this only, if sales requirements not met, which doesnt happen for most people in such guild. so pls tell me more about forcing high donations to deal competition.

I've never read anything about mafia rule on consoles. I have read that the pricing of items is much lower there and people don't have to worry about filling guilds with gold for a blind bid. Who knows how much of that gold actually goes to the bid anyway? The guild leaders never tell their members how much gold is in there or how much the bid was.

therift

@knowledge

You are correct; "Straw Man" is tossed around in many forums by folks who appear to misunderstand exactly what it is. The term carries negative connotations as well as implied derision, neither of which is intended by my response.

"Straw Man Fallacy" has a more robust definition under the discipline of logic than the one from which you're operating.

The fallacy arises from presenting an argument which appears to refute another person's argument by refuting an argument that was not presented.

In my context, the original argument "we need add-ons to operate", if countered by the refuting argument "consoles do just fine without add-ons", falls under Straw Man because the refuting argument presents a solution which does not directly address the original argument. A Straw Man argument can be logically True; but the fallacy arises from avoiding a refutation of the original argument.

The issue at hand is that PC trade guilds have been built with 3rd party data compilers to organize raw data. Of the three methods to manage trade guild accounting (Sales, Dues/Donations, Fundraising), the first method is, for all practical purposes, impossible on console.

I hesitated to add a response to yours as I do not wish to derail the thread, but since you read unintended criticism in my post, I felt you deserved an explanation of my thinking as well as affirmation that I did not intend to suggest you were dishonest or harbored nefarious intentions.

Dont_do_drugs

Knowledge wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

from what i remember from the forums, whatever you say about it - the consoles situation regarding trade guild is much worse. empty guilds, threats, complaints about mafia structure, heavy price pushes. i mean sometimes there are complaints about it from other servers as well, but i never recognized it that much and with that itnensity like on consoles. next to that the prices are better on a lot of items due to addon help on pc, which helps people getting faster access to items for end content as well. and no its not increasing the bidding competition. after all the pc eu still has the most moderate donation-rules in trading of all servers from what i recognize in the forums. we do not have 20 or 25k donation/fees, the max i ever heard of was 10k. even the top trading guilds only charge in case of a failed trading week (trade OR donate) max 5k, one or two 10k. but this only, if sales requirements not met, which doesnt happen for most people in such guild. so pls tell me more about forcing high donations to deal competition.

I've never read anything about mafia rule on consoles. I have read that the pricing of items is much lower there and people don't have to worry about filling guilds with gold for a blind bid. Who knows how much of that gold actually goes to the bid anyway? The guild leaders never tell their members how much gold is in there or how much the bid was.

yes, for good reasons in any ways. its hard to bring "transparency" together with blind bidding while you never know, who is in your guild leeching information. still you have more transparency when knowing, what your guild actually does in sales, more transparency in wether a spot is really worth what the gm expects to contribute by his members. after all the servers all have grown different habits in trade-gming and rules in guilds - to me making a "donate to trade" guild is no option and completely against my idea of trading. and i am sure a lot of gm on pc eu support that thought, i guess the pc eu contains the most trade active community and with that also and for sure a system which might differ from other servers, but for us the addons are essential to keep that idea of trading. a system where people mainly only "pay" by sales taxes instead of taxes + fixed fees.

edit: about ur the game is meant to run without addons - thats not true, zos included api commands to support people building addons, since they are able to faster build them without going loops of idea - quality checks - approval by leads. the api commands exactly were build to support tools as att, mm and ags.

Knowledge

therift wrote: »

@knowledge

You are correct; "Straw Man" is tossed around in many forums by folks who appear to misunderstand exactly what it is. The term carries negative connotations as well as implied derision, neither of which is intended by my response.

"Straw Man Fallacy" has a more robust definition under the discipline of logic than the one from which you're operating.

The fallacy arises from presenting an argument which appears to refute another person's argument by refuting an argument that was not presented.

In my context, the original argument "we need add-ons to operate", if countered by the refuting argument "consoles do just fine without add-ons", falls under Straw Man because the refuting argument presents a solution which does not directly address the original argument. A Straw Man argument can be logically True; but the fallacy arises from avoiding a refutation of the original argument.

The issue at hand is that PC trade guilds have been built with 3rd party data compilers to organize raw data. Of the three methods to manage trade guild accounting (Sales, Dues/Donations, Fundraising), the first method is, for all practical purposes, impossible on console.

I hesitated to add a response to yours as I do not wish to derail the thread, but since you read unintended criticism in my post, I felt you deserved an explanation of my thinking as well as affirmation that I did not intend to suggest you were dishonest or harbored nefarious intentions.

I'm very well versed in this among other similar things. However, what I have stated is not a straw man argument. Let me help a little bit here, this would be a straw man argument:

Person 1 makes claim Y.

Person 2 restates person 1’s claim (in a distorted way).

Person 2 attacks the distorted version of the claim.

Therefore, claim Y is false.

I'm not saying anyone's claim is false nor am I attacking a distorted version of any claim. I am simply offering a temporary solution or idea to an ongoing problem that I agree exists.

So, in a break down in this situation:

Person 1 made a claim.

Person 2 (me) agrees with their claim.

Person 2 (me) offered a temporary solution or idea.

Therefore person 1 and 2 agree but person 1 doesn't like the suggestion that person 2 made as a temporary solution and has called them a straw man.

zaria

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Amarlado wrote: »

Of course I can trade without MM. Guilds can of course be run without data extraction tools. I can also walk ten miles to work every day, cook with only a wood-burning fire with wood cut with my own hands with an ax forged on my own. That doesn't mean I'm particularly looking forward to the idea.

Welcome to the life of console players 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 but I thought this guild trader system was so amazing and innovating though 😂😂😂😂😂😂

You get an global trader, you can list 30 items. Outside of that it works just as today.
Calculate the effects.
Hint: everybody will underbid each others so gear who now sells for say 4K will sell for 400 as you need to move items and how to do that is to underbid your other option is vendor or deconstruct.

therift

@Knowledge

Straw Man Fallacy does not require presenting a distorted view, nor is it based upon restating the original argument in a different or distorted way. It is a logical fallacy because it does not depend upon deductive reasoning. You are operating from a limited understanding of the logic chain. With respect, I suggest beginning with the definition of 'Logical Fallacy' not from an online dictionary, but from an indepth source from the field of Logic.

Hexquisite

One only has to do a search to see that Console trading guilds have huge integrity problems, and also charge people flat fees to be in them regardless of sales. Where as PC guilds one usually doesn't have to pay a fee if they are meeting sales requirements. We can all see sales history and have a good indication of how the the guild is faring. A friend of mine came from console and said everything is super expensive there compared to PC, so that can't be good for the casual player.

Also, add ons help the little guy, I often go to out of the way traders to buy items that I have been looking for after a TTC search. If there is no TTC or MM, I will just shop at the main hubs. I will also list all my gold jewelery items at a higher price.