StamDK Dilemma: Penetration, DoT or Weapon Damage

SkysOutThizeOut

@Davadin to reinforce @Thogard opinion on flurry, this popped up today. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/478652/flurry-is-useless#latest

Davadin

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Davadin let me help you in a more sound way. The sets don’t work together because they’re not complimenting each other for a huge part. Sword singer doesn’t buff ANYTHIG NON 2H. Are you only using 2h ultimate? If your going for a dot build this is not a good look. Spriggans is even worse if your using bleeds, because bleeds penetrate all resistances anyway. If you are 1baring spriggan okay, maybe. Spriggans is also going to be worthless with your 2h ultimate because it’s 100% pen already. If you are set on dots and want bigger weapon damage and claim solo, seventh/veiled (your choice) and deadly would probably be a good setup. Losing too much stat density in spriggan and sword singer. Veiled is always up and seventh basically is when your in the ***. Hope this helps.

thank you!

i'm sticking to 2H/2H, so I feel sword singer is helpful. i'm also building non-DoT, and so want higher wep damage. But I don't use 2H ultimate coz i love using Leap (which also benefit from wep damage and CP).

so, no bleed (Carve and Nox's DoT is just bonus, and not using Claw), not using Onslaught, not using Corrosive (too long to build up and too short, just don't like it).

So Spriggan is good, and... what? Sword Singer then?

Yes I got 7th armor but then ill be back on heavy and low wep damage so i have to rely on DoT again.... Yes, I got 7th and Deadly build, and i run around Cyro last year with 7th and Spriggan, they're fine.

But i'm building medium, high damage, lotsa dodge, IN YO FACE burst build. Any DoT or bleed are just bonus.

thanks for the feedback regardless!

SkysOutThizeOut

@Davadin sword singer only buffs 2h skills. How many 2h skills do you use? Not many. Doesn’t buff leap. Wear seventh/infused jewelry, infuse it and do wd enchants, 2 pc heavy. Front bar spriggan with execute and leap, back bar master with carve.

Sword singer just gives nothing for most abilities.

SkysOutThizeOut

@Davadin veiled is a great alternative to seventh because you proc it. But do it in jewelry and 2 pc heavy, chest and legs. Or you could do weapons.

Davadin

Ok. Trying out Deadly medium with 7th legion jewel and 2H axe.... looks like i might have to put more points back into Thaumaturge again...........

SkysOutThizeOut

@Davadin when doing a build think stat density. What gives me the absolute most bag for the buck. What has the greatest effect on everything. Do that logic and you’ll generally pick decent sets.

Thogard

Honestly man it sounds like you want to be a Stam sorc. Stam DK just doesn’t really work well at all for 2h/2h

Davadin

Thogard wrote: »

Honestly man it sounds like you want to be a Stam sorc. Stam DK just doesn’t really work well at all for 2h/2h

Yeah. Too bad I'm a 1-alt-MMO player kinda guy lol.... Been here 4 years, this dude went from all Mag, hybrid, stam, back to Mag, then Stam and various flavour of it...

I know it's not great, but it works ok. Just wondering what gear best for it.

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Davadin when doing a build think stat density. What gives me the absolute most bag for the buck. What has the greatest effect on everything. Do that logic and you’ll generally pick decent sets.

of course, but it ain't easy lol that's why I'm here asking u pros

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Davadin sword singer only buffs 2h skills. How many 2h skills do you use? Not many. Doesn’t buff leap. Wear seventh/infused jewelry, infuse it and do wd enchants, 2 pc heavy. Front bar spriggan with execute and leap, back bar master with carve.

Sword singer just gives nothing for most abilities.

i got 4. but i'm dropping it 3 and i have no money to gold my Veiled Heritance (nor enough transmute to change), I feel the "most stat density" i can come up with, with focus on Medium for that sweet balance of bleeding vs wep damage, is Deadly + 7th.

I'm an open world Cyro player so lotsa proc on 7th, which pushed me over 5k wep damage. But even without proc, I always get 15% more DoT and 7th gives good health regen. just becoz i happened to have 3x seventh jewelries from golden vendor, 3x infused wd. Yes, 2 piece heavy on Bloodspawn set.

I don't have 7th maul tho so I'm rocking golded "THE NEGOTIATOR" (2h axe) which adds even more bleed, and so I put 15% more bleed from Thaumaturge while my leap is still 21k on the tooltip.

Well, I also kept my original original with Spriggan med build and the same 7th jewel/weapon, but with Thaumaturge get its CP back, i felt like my Nox/Carve spam gives more pressure with a DoT build.

While Deadly/Spriggan set may eeked a bit more burst, but i'm too squishy with no 7th heal and health regen.

Grimhallow

Yeah I don't like any of these sets for DK. Even if you really love 2h 2h, 7th, Fury, Bloodspawn, and corrosive is going to be the way to go. If you want medium armor, then poisonous serpent is a great DK set.

Davadin

Grimick wrote: »

Yeah I don't like any of these sets for DK. Even if you really love 2h 2h, 7th, Fury, Bloodspawn, and corrosive is going to be the way to go. If you want medium armor, then poisonous serpent is a great DK set.

that's fair. i'm not a big fan of Fury, but I got 7th. I know DK got it strong for DoT, but I hate being shoehorned into strictly DoT build....

Poisonous Serpent actually looks pretty cool!

But what do you use to put Poison damage ability? Nox/Claw? Then just hope one of the light attack procs it?

But I dunno if i wanna swap out Deadly Strike for it. 15% DoT si 15% DoT, even tho 3.4k/sec is a nice healthy addition.

Thogard

Another set you could try that I had a ton of fun on with DK was mechanical acuity. Get the dots up on the target swap to frontbar where you have the MA 5pc and once it procs use an offensive ult. All the dots will start critting and your heals will crit too.

Davadin

Thogard wrote: »

Another set you could try that I had a ton of fun on with DK was mechanical acuity. Get the dots up on the target swap to frontbar where you have the MA 5pc and once it procs use an offensive ult. All the dots will start critting and your heals will crit too.

Hmmmmmm..............

ccmedaddy

Thogard wrote: »

Another set you could try that I had a ton of fun on with DK was mechanical acuity. Get the dots up on the target swap to frontbar where you have the MA 5pc and once it procs use an offensive ult. All the dots will start critting and your heals will crit too.

I thought acuity didn't affect heals unless they're tied to dmg (e.g. sweeps)?

ecru

Davadin wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Honestly man it sounds like you want to be a Stam sorc. Stam DK just doesn’t really work well at all for 2h/2h

Yeah. Too bad I'm a 1-alt-MMO player kinda guy lol.... Been here 4 years, this dude went from all Mag, hybrid, stam, back to Mag, then Stam and various flavour of it...

I know it's not great, but it works ok. Just wondering what gear best for it.

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Davadin when doing a build think stat density. What gives me the absolute most bag for the buck. What has the greatest effect on everything. Do that logic and you’ll generally pick decent sets.

of course, but it ain't easy lol that's why I'm here asking u pros

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Davadin sword singer only buffs 2h skills. How many 2h skills do you use? Not many. Doesn’t buff leap. Wear seventh/infused jewelry, infuse it and do wd enchants, 2 pc heavy. Front bar spriggan with execute and leap, back bar master with carve.

Sword singer just gives nothing for most abilities.

i got 4. but i'm dropping it 3 and i have no money to gold my Veiled Heritance (nor enough transmute to change), I feel the "most stat density" i can come up with, with focus on Medium for that sweet balance of bleeding vs wep damage, is Deadly + 7th.

I'm an open world Cyro player so lotsa proc on 7th, which pushed me over 5k wep damage. But even without proc, I always get 15% more DoT and 7th gives good health regen. just becoz i happened to have 3x seventh jewelries from golden vendor, 3x infused wd. Yes, 2 piece heavy on Bloodspawn set.

I don't have 7th maul tho so I'm rocking golded "THE NEGOTIATOR" (2h axe) which adds even more bleed, and so I put 15% more bleed from Thaumaturge while my leap is still 21k on the tooltip.

Well, I also kept my original original with Spriggan med build and the same 7th jewel/weapon, but with Thaumaturge get its CP back, i felt like my Nox/Carve spam gives more pressure with a DoT build.

While Deadly/Spriggan set may eeked a bit more burst, but i'm too squishy with no 7th heal and health regen.

flurry or wrecking blow (they do the same amount of damage) does 50% more damage than the direct damage portion of carve or breath. IMO the only good reason to spam breath would be if you have whip slotted for the seething fury stacks.

ecru

Thogard wrote: »

Another set you could try that I had a ton of fun on with DK was mechanical acuity. Get the dots up on the target swap to frontbar where you have the MA 5pc and once it procs use an offensive ult. All the dots will start critting and your heals will crit too.

tzogvin would be much better than acuity and acuity doesn't cause heals to crit.

susmitds

ecru wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Another set you could try that I had a ton of fun on with DK was mechanical acuity. Get the dots up on the target swap to frontbar where you have the MA 5pc and once it procs use an offensive ult. All the dots will start critting and your heals will crit too.

tzogvin would be much better than acuity and acuity doesn't cause heals to crit.

You are wrong though. Acuity causes everything to crit, including heals. Burstwise nothing compares to Mechanical Acuity.

ecru

susmitds wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Another set you could try that I had a ton of fun on with DK was mechanical acuity. Get the dots up on the target swap to frontbar where you have the MA 5pc and once it procs use an offensive ult. All the dots will start critting and your heals will crit too.

tzogvin would be much better than acuity and acuity doesn't cause heals to crit.

You are wrong though. Acuity causes everything to crit, including heals. Burstwise nothing compares to Mechanical Acuity.

okay i pulled out my old set and tested it and you're right, the tooltip is misleading because it says causing your attacks to always be a critical strike. i still wouldn't use it because 5 seconds is too small of a window to get anything done if you don't have full control over the proc, would rather have tzogvins which is up all the time + gives minor force. tzogvins should be easy to keep up with dots going too.

Davadin

Thogard wrote: »

Another set you could try that I had a ton of fun on with DK was mechanical acuity. Get the dots up on the target swap to frontbar where you have the MA 5pc and once it procs use an offensive ult. All the dots will start critting and your heals will crit too.

(5 items) When you deal direct damage, you have a 15% chance to gain unerring mechanical vision for 5 seconds, causing your attacks to always be a Critical Strike. This effect can occur once every 18 seconds.

5 piece med armor i can craft no prob, but 3 jewel if i wanna keep Deadly is a pain to get gold....

...so.... i won't have to swap, but i'll have to sacrifice 15% DoT from Deadly Strike, or 3.5k penetration from Spriggan, and use it with 7th Legion.

are you saying every 20sec or so, I can get 5 sec of EVERYTHING crit? like, sure, DoT crit is nice, Heal crit, why not.... but I CAN THEORITICALLY CAN SPAM 5 DIZZYING SWING CRITS?

Wow, "all ur damage to always crit for 5 sec" seems pretty OP lol

edit: wow, imagine ur enemy <50% and MA procs... spamming Reverse Strike or Executioner is a guaranteed death sentence lol

Davadin

ecru wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Honestly man it sounds like you want to be a Stam sorc. Stam DK just doesn’t really work well at all for 2h/2h

Yeah. Too bad I'm a 1-alt-MMO player kinda guy lol.... Been here 4 years, this dude went from all Mag, hybrid, stam, back to Mag, then Stam and various flavour of it...

I know it's not great, but it works ok. Just wondering what gear best for it.

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Davadin when doing a build think stat density. What gives me the absolute most bag for the buck. What has the greatest effect on everything. Do that logic and you’ll generally pick decent sets.

of course, but it ain't easy lol that's why I'm here asking u pros

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Davadin sword singer only buffs 2h skills. How many 2h skills do you use? Not many. Doesn’t buff leap. Wear seventh/infused jewelry, infuse it and do wd enchants, 2 pc heavy. Front bar spriggan with execute and leap, back bar master with carve.

Sword singer just gives nothing for most abilities.

i got 4. but i'm dropping it 3 and i have no money to gold my Veiled Heritance (nor enough transmute to change), I feel the "most stat density" i can come up with, with focus on Medium for that sweet balance of bleeding vs wep damage, is Deadly + 7th.

I'm an open world Cyro player so lotsa proc on 7th, which pushed me over 5k wep damage. But even without proc, I always get 15% more DoT and 7th gives good health regen. just becoz i happened to have 3x seventh jewelries from golden vendor, 3x infused wd. Yes, 2 piece heavy on Bloodspawn set.

I don't have 7th maul tho so I'm rocking golded "THE NEGOTIATOR" (2h axe) which adds even more bleed, and so I put 15% more bleed from Thaumaturge while my leap is still 21k on the tooltip.

Well, I also kept my original original with Spriggan med build and the same 7th jewel/weapon, but with Thaumaturge get its CP back, i felt like my Nox/Carve spam gives more pressure with a DoT build.

While Deadly/Spriggan set may eeked a bit more burst, but i'm too squishy with no 7th heal and health regen.

flurry or wrecking blow (they do the same amount of damage) does 50% more damage than the direct damage portion of carve or breath. IMO the only good reason to spam breath would be if you have whip slotted for the seething fury stacks.

but i can do multiple Carve/Nox in a sec (~2/sec), so my DPS (as much as it kills my stamina) is pretty high compared to Dizzying (1/sec) or Flurry (whats the cast time? nearly 1sec too? So maybe 1.5/sec)

nox/LA-weaving is definitely just as strong as Dizzying and u get the bonus of an AoE, and better chance to land it.

ecru wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Another set you could try that I had a ton of fun on with DK was mechanical acuity. Get the dots up on the target swap to frontbar where you have the MA 5pc and once it procs use an offensive ult. All the dots will start critting and your heals will crit too.

tzogvin would be much better than acuity and acuity doesn't cause heals to crit.

remember we're in the PvP forum.

Tzog isn't a PvP set.

susmitds

Davadin wrote: »

Wow, "all ur damage to always crit for 5 sec" seems pretty OP lol

edit: wow, imagine ur enemy <50% and MA procs... spamming Reverse Strike or Executioner is a guaranteed death sentence lol

I use MA a lot on my stamNB. I will tell you one thing that you won't land be able to complete Dizzing Combo within the burst windows against any decent enemy, they will CC or root you to cut you off mid proc, effectively wasting it. MA needs a high burst combo that can be used to push high damage in say two to three GCDs, as you will waste one GCD of the proc, by just proccing it and you are left with 4 more GCDs of proctime left.

Davadin wrote: »

but i can do multiple Carve/Nox in a sec (~2/sec), so my DPS (as much as it kills my stamina) is pretty high compared to Dizzying (1/sec) or Flurry (whats the cast time? nearly 1sec too? So maybe 1.5/sec)

You can not do more than one of any skill in a second. There is a GCD. Flurry cast time is 0.6 seconds

ecru

Davadin wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Honestly man it sounds like you want to be a Stam sorc. Stam DK just doesn’t really work well at all for 2h/2h

Yeah. Too bad I'm a 1-alt-MMO player kinda guy lol.... Been here 4 years, this dude went from all Mag, hybrid, stam, back to Mag, then Stam and various flavour of it...

I know it's not great, but it works ok. Just wondering what gear best for it.

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Davadin when doing a build think stat density. What gives me the absolute most bag for the buck. What has the greatest effect on everything. Do that logic and you’ll generally pick decent sets.

of course, but it ain't easy lol that's why I'm here asking u pros

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Davadin sword singer only buffs 2h skills. How many 2h skills do you use? Not many. Doesn’t buff leap. Wear seventh/infused jewelry, infuse it and do wd enchants, 2 pc heavy. Front bar spriggan with execute and leap, back bar master with carve.

Sword singer just gives nothing for most abilities.

i got 4. but i'm dropping it 3 and i have no money to gold my Veiled Heritance (nor enough transmute to change), I feel the "most stat density" i can come up with, with focus on Medium for that sweet balance of bleeding vs wep damage, is Deadly + 7th.

I'm an open world Cyro player so lotsa proc on 7th, which pushed me over 5k wep damage. But even without proc, I always get 15% more DoT and 7th gives good health regen. just becoz i happened to have 3x seventh jewelries from golden vendor, 3x infused wd. Yes, 2 piece heavy on Bloodspawn set.

I don't have 7th maul tho so I'm rocking golded "THE NEGOTIATOR" (2h axe) which adds even more bleed, and so I put 15% more bleed from Thaumaturge while my leap is still 21k on the tooltip.

Well, I also kept my original original with Spriggan med build and the same 7th jewel/weapon, but with Thaumaturge get its CP back, i felt like my Nox/Carve spam gives more pressure with a DoT build.

While Deadly/Spriggan set may eeked a bit more burst, but i'm too squishy with no 7th heal and health regen.

flurry or wrecking blow (they do the same amount of damage) does 50% more damage than the direct damage portion of carve or breath. IMO the only good reason to spam breath would be if you have whip slotted for the seething fury stacks.

but i can do multiple Carve/Nox in a sec (~2/sec), so my DPS (as much as it kills my stamina) is pretty high compared to Dizzying (1/sec) or Flurry (whats the cast time? nearly 1sec too? So maybe 1.5/sec)

nox/LA-weaving is definitely just as strong as Dizzying and u get the bonus of an AoE, and better chance to land it.

ecru wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Another set you could try that I had a ton of fun on with DK was mechanical acuity. Get the dots up on the target swap to frontbar where you have the MA 5pc and once it procs use an offensive ult. All the dots will start critting and your heals will crit too.

tzogvin would be much better than acuity and acuity doesn't cause heals to crit.

remember we're in the PvP forum.

Tzog isn't a PvP set.

Flurry is a .6s channel which means it's usable as fast as an instant ability, especially after Elsweyr where the 200ms post gcd delay was removed. Weaving noxious breath means you don't get the dot (or you get one tick), and although it's a weak dot, you could still have that dot ticking while you use Flurry for ~66% more damage each gcd (plus the dot tick from noxious).



This is what that looks like with Corrosive up with only ~4.5k wd in a BG. Compared to wrecking blow it's both easier to land and harder for opponents to avoid. If your opponent dodges or moves out of range mid channel, you will at least still get a portion of the channel's damage, because it's a channel and not a cast like wrecking blow. With wrecking blow you get zero and have to restart the cast again. You can continue to use Flurry and get at least some damage out of it against opponents who are avoiding you in situations where wrecking blow (and possibly an instant ability) would just flat out miss. Just 4/5 hits of the channel (or the last two 2 out of 5 hits) is as much damage as noxious too.

I'm not saying noxious is bad, the damage is decent, and slotting whip plus spamming it a few times to get seething fury stacks up might be a good idea (I think I gained about 650wd at 3 stacks when I tested this), but the damage just doesn't come close to Flurry, especially with Corrosive up. Keep in mind that Flurry also gets another 20% damage bonus sub 25%, putting it ahead of wrecking blow, and another 15% damage bonus to immobilized opponents on top of that, so the damage you can see vs opponents who are immobilized sub 25 is pretty substantial. (A sub 25% health shield stacking sorc not roll dodging out of the root from Fossilize is a scenario where the extra damage is really noticeable IMO).

edit: I was wrong about Flurry being a 50% damage increase over Noxious. With Deadly Strike, it's actually a 66% increase.

I dunno what you mean by tzogvins being a pve set. It's a fairly stat dense set that gives you free minor force.

susmitds wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Wow, "all ur damage to always crit for 5 sec" seems pretty OP lol

edit: wow, imagine ur enemy <50% and MA procs... spamming Reverse Strike or Executioner is a guaranteed death sentence lol

I use MA a lot on my stamNB. I will tell you one thing that you won't land be able to complete Dizzing Combo within the burst windows against any decent enemy, they will CC or root you to cut you off mid proc, effectively wasting it. MA needs a high burst combo that can be used to push high damage in say two to three GCDs, as you will waste one GCD of the proc, by just proccing it and you are left with 4 more GCDs of proctime left.

Davadin wrote: »

but i can do multiple Carve/Nox in a sec (~2/sec), so my DPS (as much as it kills my stamina) is pretty high compared to Dizzying (1/sec) or Flurry (whats the cast time? nearly 1sec too? So maybe 1.5/sec)

You can not do more than one of any skill in a second. There is a GCD. Flurry cast time is 0.6 seconds

I agree w/this. Acuity has a really noticeable proc and if I saw anyone using it, I'd just avoid them for 5 seconds. It would be mostly wasted on good players who know what it is IMO and you might only be able to take full advantage of the proc vs a cc'd opponent or someone who isn't aware of what it is.

Davadin

aw but i just gold THE NEGOTIATOR lol....

I could DW Flurry I suppose with the 7th, with Master Axe on the backbar....

Davadin

Quick update after some 2 hours in Kaal...

well damn, Flurry is pretty nice afterall. But what's even better still is Whirling Blades. At 6 m radius, it's the new spin-2-win indeed.

Davadin

ecru wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Honestly man it sounds like you want to be a Stam sorc. Stam DK just doesn’t really work well at all for 2h/2h

Yeah. Too bad I'm a 1-alt-MMO player kinda guy lol.... Been here 4 years, this dude went from all Mag, hybrid, stam, back to Mag, then Stam and various flavour of it...

I know it's not great, but it works ok. Just wondering what gear best for it.

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Davadin when doing a build think stat density. What gives me the absolute most bag for the buck. What has the greatest effect on everything. Do that logic and you’ll generally pick decent sets.

of course, but it ain't easy lol that's why I'm here asking u pros

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Davadin sword singer only buffs 2h skills. How many 2h skills do you use? Not many. Doesn’t buff leap. Wear seventh/infused jewelry, infuse it and do wd enchants, 2 pc heavy. Front bar spriggan with execute and leap, back bar master with carve.

Sword singer just gives nothing for most abilities.

i got 4. but i'm dropping it 3 and i have no money to gold my Veiled Heritance (nor enough transmute to change), I feel the "most stat density" i can come up with, with focus on Medium for that sweet balance of bleeding vs wep damage, is Deadly + 7th.

I'm an open world Cyro player so lotsa proc on 7th, which pushed me over 5k wep damage. But even without proc, I always get 15% more DoT and 7th gives good health regen. just becoz i happened to have 3x seventh jewelries from golden vendor, 3x infused wd. Yes, 2 piece heavy on Bloodspawn set.

I don't have 7th maul tho so I'm rocking golded "THE NEGOTIATOR" (2h axe) which adds even more bleed, and so I put 15% more bleed from Thaumaturge while my leap is still 21k on the tooltip.

Well, I also kept my original original with Spriggan med build and the same 7th jewel/weapon, but with Thaumaturge get its CP back, i felt like my Nox/Carve spam gives more pressure with a DoT build.

While Deadly/Spriggan set may eeked a bit more burst, but i'm too squishy with no 7th heal and health regen.

flurry or wrecking blow (they do the same amount of damage) does 50% more damage than the direct damage portion of carve or breath. IMO the only good reason to spam breath would be if you have whip slotted for the seething fury stacks.

but i can do multiple Carve/Nox in a sec (~2/sec), so my DPS (as much as it kills my stamina) is pretty high compared to Dizzying (1/sec) or Flurry (whats the cast time? nearly 1sec too? So maybe 1.5/sec)

nox/LA-weaving is definitely just as strong as Dizzying and u get the bonus of an AoE, and better chance to land it.

ecru wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Another set you could try that I had a ton of fun on with DK was mechanical acuity. Get the dots up on the target swap to frontbar where you have the MA 5pc and once it procs use an offensive ult. All the dots will start critting and your heals will crit too.

tzogvin would be much better than acuity and acuity doesn't cause heals to crit.

remember we're in the PvP forum.

Tzog isn't a PvP set.

Flurry is a .6s channel which means it's usable as fast as an instant ability, especially after Elsweyr where the 200ms post gcd delay was removed. Weaving noxious breath means you don't get the dot (or you get one tick), and although it's a weak dot, you could still have that dot ticking while you use Flurry for ~66% more damage each gcd (plus the dot tick from noxious).



This is what that looks like with Corrosive up with only ~4.5k wd in a BG. Compared to wrecking blow it's both easier to land and harder for opponents to avoid. If your opponent dodges or moves out of range mid channel, you will at least still get a portion of the channel's damage, because it's a channel and not a cast like wrecking blow. With wrecking blow you get zero and have to restart the cast again. You can continue to use Flurry and get at least some damage out of it against opponents who are avoiding you in situations where wrecking blow (and possibly an instant ability) would just flat out miss. Just 4/5 hits of the channel (or the last two 2 out of 5 hits) is as much damage as noxious too.

I'm not saying noxious is bad, the damage is decent, and slotting whip plus spamming it a few times to get seething fury stacks up might be a good idea (I think I gained about 650wd at 3 stacks when I tested this), but the damage just doesn't come close to Flurry, especially with Corrosive up. Keep in mind that Flurry also gets another 20% damage bonus sub 25%, putting it ahead of wrecking blow, and another 15% damage bonus to immobilized opponents on top of that, so the damage you can see vs opponents who are immobilized sub 25 is pretty substantial. (A sub 25% health shield stacking sorc not roll dodging out of the root from Fossilize is a scenario where the extra damage is really noticeable IMO).

edit: I was wrong about Flurry being a 50% damage increase over Noxious. With Deadly Strike, it's actually a 66% increase.

I dunno what you mean by tzogvins being a pve set. It's a fairly stat dense set that gives you free minor force.

susmitds wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Wow, "all ur damage to always crit for 5 sec" seems pretty OP lol

edit: wow, imagine ur enemy <50% and MA procs... spamming Reverse Strike or Executioner is a guaranteed death sentence lol

I use MA a lot on my stamNB. I will tell you one thing that you won't land be able to complete Dizzing Combo within the burst windows against any decent enemy, they will CC or root you to cut you off mid proc, effectively wasting it. MA needs a high burst combo that can be used to push high damage in say two to three GCDs, as you will waste one GCD of the proc, by just proccing it and you are left with 4 more GCDs of proctime left.

Davadin wrote: »

but i can do multiple Carve/Nox in a sec (~2/sec), so my DPS (as much as it kills my stamina) is pretty high compared to Dizzying (1/sec) or Flurry (whats the cast time? nearly 1sec too? So maybe 1.5/sec)

You can not do more than one of any skill in a second. There is a GCD. Flurry cast time is 0.6 seconds

I agree w/this. Acuity has a really noticeable proc and if I saw anyone using it, I'd just avoid them for 5 seconds. It would be mostly wasted on good players who know what it is IMO and you might only be able to take full advantage of the proc vs a cc'd opponent or someone who isn't aware of what it is.

more testing the last 2 nights.

I think I understand the deal with Flurry and why people are not going crazy about it.

It hits hard, but not crazy hard. The thing with Wrecking Blow or Nox is they're 1-time delivery. It's direct. Yes, u got a fairly higher risk to miss altogether, but when it does, it delivers all the damage.

Flurry is a channel, and worse, it's a MELEE channel. Meaning, people can avoid taking in the full channel. Simply dodge roll or stun or sorc streak, and they're out of harm's way. And they got 0.7sec to do it. It's not instant. And yes, they can also heal, or let a HoT mitigate some of the damage.

Bottom line, I think whether u pick Dizzying as spammable (or Nox without the DoT), or Flurry, they either risk missing but instant delivery, or better chance to land but it's a damage-over-time. Yes, Flurry is a DoT.

My personal build issue tho I have Flurry and Whirlwind on 1 bar, and Nox on the other (with Carve) and no Claw. The problem is Flurry by itself is truly "just OK". spamming it on a decently ranked player won't even scratch their armor. Flurry shines when it's buffed, by something...

it could be Nox's armor breach, or under-50% bonus, or under-25% execute. Or straight-up raw crit chance. Add some DoT pressure from the backbar, then Flurry can be lethal.

I think I'll have to either move Nox to DW bar, and add Claw to 2H bar. I dunno. Something.

On another note, Leap + Whirling is still a very good DK execute.

PS: anybody use BanditUI? Any way we can break down the combat report? It's a very nice summary of total damage, but i like to see the individual hit registration. And I'd rather not download a separate add-on....

ecru

Davadin wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Honestly man it sounds like you want to be a Stam sorc. Stam DK just doesn’t really work well at all for 2h/2h

Yeah. Too bad I'm a 1-alt-MMO player kinda guy lol.... Been here 4 years, this dude went from all Mag, hybrid, stam, back to Mag, then Stam and various flavour of it...

I know it's not great, but it works ok. Just wondering what gear best for it.

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Davadin when doing a build think stat density. What gives me the absolute most bag for the buck. What has the greatest effect on everything. Do that logic and you’ll generally pick decent sets.

of course, but it ain't easy lol that's why I'm here asking u pros

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

@Davadin sword singer only buffs 2h skills. How many 2h skills do you use? Not many. Doesn’t buff leap. Wear seventh/infused jewelry, infuse it and do wd enchants, 2 pc heavy. Front bar spriggan with execute and leap, back bar master with carve.

Sword singer just gives nothing for most abilities.

i got 4. but i'm dropping it 3 and i have no money to gold my Veiled Heritance (nor enough transmute to change), I feel the "most stat density" i can come up with, with focus on Medium for that sweet balance of bleeding vs wep damage, is Deadly + 7th.

I'm an open world Cyro player so lotsa proc on 7th, which pushed me over 5k wep damage. But even without proc, I always get 15% more DoT and 7th gives good health regen. just becoz i happened to have 3x seventh jewelries from golden vendor, 3x infused wd. Yes, 2 piece heavy on Bloodspawn set.

I don't have 7th maul tho so I'm rocking golded "THE NEGOTIATOR" (2h axe) which adds even more bleed, and so I put 15% more bleed from Thaumaturge while my leap is still 21k on the tooltip.

Well, I also kept my original original with Spriggan med build and the same 7th jewel/weapon, but with Thaumaturge get its CP back, i felt like my Nox/Carve spam gives more pressure with a DoT build.

While Deadly/Spriggan set may eeked a bit more burst, but i'm too squishy with no 7th heal and health regen.

flurry or wrecking blow (they do the same amount of damage) does 50% more damage than the direct damage portion of carve or breath. IMO the only good reason to spam breath would be if you have whip slotted for the seething fury stacks.

but i can do multiple Carve/Nox in a sec (~2/sec), so my DPS (as much as it kills my stamina) is pretty high compared to Dizzying (1/sec) or Flurry (whats the cast time? nearly 1sec too? So maybe 1.5/sec)

nox/LA-weaving is definitely just as strong as Dizzying and u get the bonus of an AoE, and better chance to land it.

ecru wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Another set you could try that I had a ton of fun on with DK was mechanical acuity. Get the dots up on the target swap to frontbar where you have the MA 5pc and once it procs use an offensive ult. All the dots will start critting and your heals will crit too.

tzogvin would be much better than acuity and acuity doesn't cause heals to crit.

remember we're in the PvP forum.

Tzog isn't a PvP set.

Flurry is a .6s channel which means it's usable as fast as an instant ability, especially after Elsweyr where the 200ms post gcd delay was removed. Weaving noxious breath means you don't get the dot (or you get one tick), and although it's a weak dot, you could still have that dot ticking while you use Flurry for ~66% more damage each gcd (plus the dot tick from noxious).



This is what that looks like with Corrosive up with only ~4.5k wd in a BG. Compared to wrecking blow it's both easier to land and harder for opponents to avoid. If your opponent dodges or moves out of range mid channel, you will at least still get a portion of the channel's damage, because it's a channel and not a cast like wrecking blow. With wrecking blow you get zero and have to restart the cast again. You can continue to use Flurry and get at least some damage out of it against opponents who are avoiding you in situations where wrecking blow (and possibly an instant ability) would just flat out miss. Just 4/5 hits of the channel (or the last two 2 out of 5 hits) is as much damage as noxious too.

I'm not saying noxious is bad, the damage is decent, and slotting whip plus spamming it a few times to get seething fury stacks up might be a good idea (I think I gained about 650wd at 3 stacks when I tested this), but the damage just doesn't come close to Flurry, especially with Corrosive up. Keep in mind that Flurry also gets another 20% damage bonus sub 25%, putting it ahead of wrecking blow, and another 15% damage bonus to immobilized opponents on top of that, so the damage you can see vs opponents who are immobilized sub 25 is pretty substantial. (A sub 25% health shield stacking sorc not roll dodging out of the root from Fossilize is a scenario where the extra damage is really noticeable IMO).

edit: I was wrong about Flurry being a 50% damage increase over Noxious. With Deadly Strike, it's actually a 66% increase.

I dunno what you mean by tzogvins being a pve set. It's a fairly stat dense set that gives you free minor force.

susmitds wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Wow, "all ur damage to always crit for 5 sec" seems pretty OP lol

edit: wow, imagine ur enemy <50% and MA procs... spamming Reverse Strike or Executioner is a guaranteed death sentence lol

I use MA a lot on my stamNB. I will tell you one thing that you won't land be able to complete Dizzing Combo within the burst windows against any decent enemy, they will CC or root you to cut you off mid proc, effectively wasting it. MA needs a high burst combo that can be used to push high damage in say two to three GCDs, as you will waste one GCD of the proc, by just proccing it and you are left with 4 more GCDs of proctime left.

Davadin wrote: »

but i can do multiple Carve/Nox in a sec (~2/sec), so my DPS (as much as it kills my stamina) is pretty high compared to Dizzying (1/sec) or Flurry (whats the cast time? nearly 1sec too? So maybe 1.5/sec)

You can not do more than one of any skill in a second. There is a GCD. Flurry cast time is 0.6 seconds

I agree w/this. Acuity has a really noticeable proc and if I saw anyone using it, I'd just avoid them for 5 seconds. It would be mostly wasted on good players who know what it is IMO and you might only be able to take full advantage of the proc vs a cc'd opponent or someone who isn't aware of what it is.

more testing the last 2 nights.

I think I understand the deal with Flurry and why people are not going crazy about it.

It hits hard, but not crazy hard. The thing with Wrecking Blow or Nox is they're 1-time delivery. It's direct. Yes, u got a fairly higher risk to miss altogether, but when it does, it delivers all the damage.

Flurry is a channel, and worse, it's a MELEE channel. Meaning, people can avoid taking in the full channel. Simply dodge roll or stun or sorc streak, and they're out of harm's way. And they got 0.7sec to do it. It's not instant. And yes, they can also heal, or let a HoT mitigate some of the damage.

Bottom line, I think whether u pick Dizzying as spammable (or Nox without the DoT), or Flurry, they either risk missing but instant delivery, or better chance to land but it's a damage-over-time. Yes, Flurry is a DoT.

My personal build issue tho I have Flurry and Whirlwind on 1 bar, and Nox on the other (with Carve) and no Claw. The problem is Flurry by itself is truly "just OK". spamming it on a decently ranked player won't even scratch their armor. Flurry shines when it's buffed, by something...

it could be Nox's armor breach, or under-50% bonus, or under-25% execute. Or straight-up raw crit chance. Add some DoT pressure from the backbar, then Flurry can be lethal.

I think I'll have to either move Nox to DW bar, and add Claw to 2H bar. I dunno. Something.

On another note, Leap + Whirling is still a very good DK execute.

PS: anybody use BanditUI? Any way we can break down the combat report? It's a very nice summary of total damage, but i like to see the individual hit registration. And I'd rather not download a separate add-on....

Get Combat Metrics.

Are you using Flurry/Whirlwind with Corrosive?



7,455 from Flurry and a 3,133 tick of Rending Slashes for 10.5k in one second from dw abilities with 4,655 weapon damage. I didn't even have claw/carve on this target, did have minor vulnerability from a shock enchant though. This is taking advantage of only one of the dw passives (target was in fossilize root). The combat log is kind of weird because Fossilize comes in the middle of the big channel of Flurry, but I recorded this too and the target is in the fossilize root the entire time.

You can do the same with with Corrosive + Whirlwind for sure, although I haven't tried it yet because of it's cost, I'm already out of stam enough as it is in BGs, but it would be way easier to use in Cyrodiil.

The Bloodthirst morph of Flurry is actually a pretty substantial heal with Corrosive up too. It might not seem so from the tooltip but the % isn't reduced by battle spirit and the heal that you get seems to be based on total damage done before mitigation, not actual damage on the target, so consecutive big hits with Corrosive + Flury can mean a 1.5-2k heal every second, and the highest I've seen was almost 3k, which I'm guessing was a big crit with major mending up. I've seen heals of over 2k from Bloodthirst on a target I hit for like 900 with the final hit because they were blocking. It's a weird way for the ability to work but I'm not complaining. So that's something to keep in mind when you hit Corrosive and start using it--if you expect huge damage on a target, you can also see fairly substantial incoming heals every second.

The Rapid Strikes morph doesn't seem to work the way you'd hope the tooltip implies. The first four hits all get the 3% increase, but the final hit seems to be based off of the initial hit, so your final hit with Rapid Strikes will be the same as with the Bloodthirst morph. I'm not 100% positive this is the case because I only tested it for a few minutes, but this is what I saw when I tested it on a dummy a few weeks ago.

IMO with just rending ticking + corrosive + flurry/whirlwind after fossilize is a good way to bring down any target that doesn't have really high mitigation/incoming heals, or at least pressure them insanely well. The extra 2 seconds on Corrosive this patch really helped.

Davadin

but... i usually dont run with Corrosive lol... Leap + Whirlwind is my goto execute.

Ur not saying that Flurry is good only with Corrosive, right?

I will change the morph tho! thanks!

i'll play with Corrosive and see where it gets me.

ecru

Davadin wrote: »

but... i usually dont run with Corrosive lol... Leap + Whirlwind is my goto execute.

Ur not saying that Flurry is good only with Corrosive, right?

I will change the morph tho! thanks!

i'll play with Corrosive and see where it gets me.

Nah I'm not saying it's only good with Corrosive, but with Corrosive up is where it really shines.

Elwendryll

ecru wrote: »

I agree w/this. Acuity has a really noticeable proc and if I saw anyone using it, I'd just avoid them for 5 seconds. It would be mostly wasted on good players who know what it is IMO and you might only be able to take full advantage of the proc vs a cc'd opponent or someone who isn't aware of what it is.

But can you notice it on a stamsorc with hurricane up?

Thogard

Davadin wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Another set you could try that I had a ton of fun on with DK was mechanical acuity. Get the dots up on the target swap to frontbar where you have the MA 5pc and once it procs use an offensive ult. All the dots will start critting and your heals will crit too.

(5 items) When you deal direct damage, you have a 15% chance to gain unerring mechanical vision for 5 seconds, causing your attacks to always be a Critical Strike. This effect can occur once every 18 seconds.

5 piece med armor i can craft no prob, but 3 jewel if i wanna keep Deadly is a pain to get gold....

...so.... i won't have to swap, but i'll have to sacrifice 15% DoT from Deadly Strike, or 3.5k penetration from Spriggan, and use it with 7th Legion.

are you saying every 20sec or so, I can get 5 sec of EVERYTHING crit? like, sure, DoT crit is nice, Heal crit, why not.... but I CAN THEORITICALLY CAN SPAM 5 DIZZYING SWING CRITS?

Wow, "all ur damage to always crit for 5 sec" seems pretty OP lol

edit: wow, imagine ur enemy <50% and MA procs... spamming Reverse Strike or Executioner is a guaranteed death sentence lol

Davadin wrote: »

but... i usually dont run with Corrosive lol... Leap + Whirlwind is my goto execute.

Ur not saying that Flurry is good only with Corrosive, right?

I will change the morph tho! thanks!

i'll play with Corrosive and see where it gets me.

You need to use corrosive and only corrosive. The extra damage it does over something like leap or DB is insane.

Just don’t forget to get your dots up on the target before activating corrosive.’

Davadin

Thogard wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Another set you could try that I had a ton of fun on with DK was mechanical acuity. Get the dots up on the target swap to frontbar where you have the MA 5pc and once it procs use an offensive ult. All the dots will start critting and your heals will crit too.

(5 items) When you deal direct damage, you have a 15% chance to gain unerring mechanical vision for 5 seconds, causing your attacks to always be a Critical Strike. This effect can occur once every 18 seconds.

5 piece med armor i can craft no prob, but 3 jewel if i wanna keep Deadly is a pain to get gold....

...so.... i won't have to swap, but i'll have to sacrifice 15% DoT from Deadly Strike, or 3.5k penetration from Spriggan, and use it with 7th Legion.

are you saying every 20sec or so, I can get 5 sec of EVERYTHING crit? like, sure, DoT crit is nice, Heal crit, why not.... but I CAN THEORITICALLY CAN SPAM 5 DIZZYING SWING CRITS?

Wow, "all ur damage to always crit for 5 sec" seems pretty OP lol

edit: wow, imagine ur enemy <50% and MA procs... spamming Reverse Strike or Executioner is a guaranteed death sentence lol

Davadin wrote: »

but... i usually dont run with Corrosive lol... Leap + Whirlwind is my goto execute.

Ur not saying that Flurry is good only with Corrosive, right?

I will change the morph tho! thanks!

i'll play with Corrosive and see where it gets me.

You need to use corrosive and only corrosive. The extra damage it does over something like leap or DB is insane.

Just don’t forget to get your dots up on the target before activating corrosive.’

i'm not giving up leap lol but I will slot Corosive on my AoE-MasterAxe back bar... considering i'm getting decent success with Deadly+7th (no Spriggan), i think it'll complement my build too.

it just felt so long to fill up those 200 ulti lol

what do u recommend i should do after bleed then activating corrosive? (2H+DW build), spam Whirlwind or Reverse strike? or Noxious? Claw? Carve? Flurry? (I know what Ecru's gonna say lol)