The problem with magblade rotation

Czekoludek

Like most of vet trials oriented players know, magblade is no longer a good choice for end game. Their rotation is hard, damage is mediocre and overall nightblade class right now is good only in their stamina variant. It isn't mean that you can't go with them to do vet trials, they still can deal some damage in right hands. But the problem is, right now there are no reasons that can justify difficulty in magNb rotation. For dynamic rotation we have abilities with so many different timers (3x 20s, 15s, 12s, 10s, 8s) to keep up, also we need to use ulti in right time to maximize burst. Comparing this to magplar or 1-petsorc rotations that are easier to learn with much better results, right now playing magblade is just wrong. I don't ask for buffs to make magNB the best, overpowered class in the game but if you want them to deal lower dmg then most mag spec, can you @ZoS simplify their rotation?

PS. WTB rota easy as magplars one for magNB 90k+ on new dummy

leokafilyeb17_ESO

Loved the idea of being a magblade, always wanted one, but knowing the rotations for it are super insane flippy and weavy and the fact I play with 200 ping constantly, means I know I can never play one to even be semi-decent.

I'd love to play one though, so yeah, simpler rotation would be a godsend.

russelmmendoza

Czekoludek wrote: »

Like most of vet trials oriented players know, magblade is no longer a good choice for end game. Their rotation is hard, damage is mediocre and overall nightblade class right now is good only in their stamina variant. It isn't mean that you can't go with them to do vet trials, they still can deal some damage in right hands. But the problem is, right now there are no reasons that can justify difficulty in magNb rotation. For dynamic rotation we have abilities with so many different timers (3x 20s, 15s, 12s, 10s, 8s) to keep up, also we need to use ulti in right time to maximize burst. Comparing this to magplar or 1-petsorc rotations that are easier to learn with much better results, right now playing magblade is just wrong. I don't ask for buffs to make magNB the best, overpowered class in the game but if you want them to deal lower dmg then most mag spec, can you @ZoS simplify their rotation?

PS. WTB rota easy as magplars one for magNB 90k+ on new dummy

Can you please post your video of your dps parse, because my magblade can only do 17k dps.

Sets, skills and cp allocation would be greatly appreciated.

Tyvm.

Iskiab

There’s more of an issue to magblades then that too. I’ve been messing around on the dummy, and for max dps you need to be in melee range for soul harvest and merciless procs.

If you’re hitting merciless every 5 abilities like on a dummy then you can only do it in melee range because of the projectile speed. If you’re actually at range you have to wait for the light attack to hit and merciless every 6 abilities.

So essentially that means all the magblade parses used to benchmark classes are melee parses and at range they’re much lower.

I think that definitely puts them in the lowest dps class category. Well, 1K higher then MagWarden in melee range but lower if magblades are used like they usually are in trials as a ranged dps.

I’m not proficient enough in the class to hit those LIKO numbers to quantify the loss at the top end, but the dps loss from being at ranged is pretty significant.

Czekoludek

Iskiab wrote: »

There’s more of an issue to magblades then that too. I’ve been messing around on the dummy, and for max dps you need to be in melee range for soul harvest and merciless procs.

If you’re hitting merciless every 5 abilities like on a dummy then you can only do it in melee range because of the projectile speed. If you’re actually at range you have to wait for the light attack to hit and merciless every 6 abilities.

So essentially that means all the magblade parses used to benchmark classes are melee parses and at range they’re much lower.

I think that definitely puts them in the lowest dps class category. Well, 1K higher then MagWarden in melee range but lower if magblades are used like they usually are in trials as a ranged dps.

I’m not proficient enough in the class to hit those LIKO numbers to quantify the loss at the top end, but the dps loss from being at ranged is pretty significant.

Yeah, you are right. Even in melee it looks like they are still lower then magdens (but with lucky crits they can win by less then 1k). Magblades were in bad spot quite some time but now everyone can see it because of new dummy with many buffs provided.

Sylas_Orin

I mained a Magblade since I started playing back at the start of 2016, I began with what was a *** class, that eventually became a decent class, which then became one of the most optimal classes, and now, over the last few patches post-Summerset has been gutted.

This is just outrageous. I don't think that a class that is ranked highest among the most difficult to play should give one of the lowest outputs of damage. It's simply not fair, if you will not allow a player to change their class and keep all their effort and progress, for a mediocre Sorcerer to outdamage an expert Nightblade. Dumb down the Nightblade rotation, or bring back its high damage. There should only be one or the other.

MartiniDaniels

I don't agree on simplifying rotation. ZOS just need explicitly put dps of all magicka classes in 1-2% difference bracket.
But honestly looking at all the wild amplitude of balance changes... I won't wait for anything, new combat team balances game solely from PVP-perspective and zerg-favorable.
So I have tinfoil-hat theory about "new vision" of ESO by Bethesda, where all "Skyrim-ers" should grind indriks in casual-friendly overland, while "MMO-players" roll in zerg waves in cyro and buy cosmetics to impress each other.

Czekoludek

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I don't agree on simplifying rotation. ZOS just need explicitly put dps of all magicka classes in 1-2% difference bracket.
But honestly looking at all the wild amplitude of balance changes... I won't wait for anything, new combat team balances game solely from PVP-perspective and zerg-favorable.
So I have tinfoil-hat theory about "new vision" of ESO by Bethesda, where all "Skyrim-ers" should grind indriks in casual-friendly overland, while "MMO-players" roll in zerg waves in cyro and buy cosmetics to impress each other.

Even if magblade and 1-petsorc will do the same dps, why choose magNB when sorc have better group utility, better survivalability and easier rotation. Pre elsweyr dynamic rota was hard but now to be even mediocre DD you have to use another 20s dot. They even made things harder by changing cripple from 8s (dot that go nice with blockade) to 10s making rota even more dynamic

MartiniDaniels

Czekoludek wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I don't agree on simplifying rotation. ZOS just need explicitly put dps of all magicka classes in 1-2% difference bracket.
But honestly looking at all the wild amplitude of balance changes... I won't wait for anything, new combat team balances game solely from PVP-perspective and zerg-favorable.
So I have tinfoil-hat theory about "new vision" of ESO by Bethesda, where all "Skyrim-ers" should grind indriks in casual-friendly overland, while "MMO-players" roll in zerg waves in cyro and buy cosmetics to impress each other.

Even if magblade and 1-petsorc will do the same dps, why choose magNB when sorc have better group utility, better survivalability and easier rotation. Pre elsweyr dynamic rota was hard but now to be even mediocre DD you have to use another 20s dot. They even made things harder by changing cripple from 8s (dot that go nice with blockade) to 10s making rota even more dynamic

Tbh, my dps both at 6M dummy and in trials notably increased with Elsweyr patch ~ for 2-3k. We lost large chunk of damage from minor berserk (~5-6%), and are forced to switch from soul harverst to incap but in stack we have berserk from healer and we received a lot of minor buffs:
1. Cripple increased in duration but does same dps, which literally means cripple is 20% cheaper now;
2. Reave from incap gives up to 100 magicka and stamina per light attack. Extra stamina regen is useful too, if fight is in close range we may use trap instead of channeled acceleration and your stamina won't be depleting;
3. Twisting path is now 12 seconds instead of 11.5.. don't know how it affected damage, but I think it's the same as with cripple;
4. Damage of shade increased and it's cost/efficiency is very good
5. Numbers of nightblades and especially magblades critically diminished. Magplars appeared but I don't saw more then 1 in a time. So that distant boss/add with <25% HP surrounded by aoes is often exclusively your piece of cake, and impale+bloodthirsty is crazy;
6. Mark is now free. On trash fights we may do insane damage;
7. We are way more tanky then before. With 2 shadow skills and damage resistance from bow build up.. + Mara.. 10k shield with 20k resistances

If we out of stack... Lotus fan buffed.. if fight is not stationary and % of minor vulnerability from healer is low this skill rocks. Yes there are lot of nuances with it, but when you can slot and use it, it rocks. For example burning down adds like storm atros and sun-eaters.. it not only buffs your damage higher then minor berserk. This is also aoe damage skill, so very useful when dealing with trash.

Tl;DR - since we are now one and only magblade in group we provide ton of utility - natural major expedition for all, applying minor invulnerability on elite adds, finishing hard-to-reach targets, insane damage in trash fights and still insane damage in execute range.
If before we were self-sufficient selfish killer who critically depended on number of weaved attacks in terms of efficiency, but other then that class was rather bland... now we are engulfing shadow, which helps group in various ways if you'll bother with adjusting bars between encounters.

But if we are forced to be out of stack and fight from range due to mechanics - yep, in those cases magblade sucks.

blnchk

As a scrub, I'm hoping for a duration increase for Wall of Elements to 8 seconds come Q3. It could even turn Unstable Wall of Elements into an interesting morph, depending on one's class and skill loadout. And with a duration of 10 seconds, Elemental Blockade would make a magNB's life somewhat easier, what with Cripple now lasting 10 seconds.

danielclarkb16_ESO

I'm so glad I read this post, starting to think it was just me! Definitely think the rotation needs simplifying, there's not a class that even comes close to how difficult it is to play.

code65536

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

I mained a Magblade since I started playing back at the start of 2016, I began with what was a *** class, that eventually became a decent class, which then became one of the most optimal classes, and now, over the last few patches post-Summerset has been gutted.

This is just outrageous. I don't think that a class that is ranked highest among the most difficult to play should give one of the lowest outputs of damage. It's simply not fair, if you will not allow a player to change their class and keep all their effort and progress, for a mediocre Sorcerer to outdamage an expert Nightblade. Dumb down the Nightblade rotation, or bring back its high damage. There should only be one or the other.

Healing nerf. Minor Berserk nerf. Change to the Cripple duration that makes static rotations even less optimal. Sigh.

wnights

I agree. The rotation is way too difficult. Think of the older players who can't click a mouse every ms just to get decent dps

SidraWillowsky

I just got my magblade to 35.4k DPS (from 30-31k using the meta rotation) using the most convoluted, exhausting rotation

Ele drain + merciless resolve + siphoning strikes up at all times, or close to

Summon shade -> crippling grasp -> blockade -> twisting path -> lotus fan with swallow soul as my spammable since I've been too lazy to start the Psijic skill line, and LA weaving when I can. Things usually go sideways after about 60% so at that point I start making sure that the standard magblade skills (crippling/blockade/twisting) remain up and then throw in a Lotus or shade when I can. Sub impale for swallow soul at below 25%.

There's no way I can effectively use this rotation outside of dummy parsing. It shouldn't have to be this complicated!!

Never mind the general fact that spell power potions are SO much more expensive than weapon power pots... WHY?!?!?

vesselwiththepestle

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

Never mind the general fact that spell power potions are SO much more expensive than weapon power pots... WHY?!?!?

Economy: More demand.

WoppaBoem

I love the class. Made it and still run it for all vet dungeon content. Not a hardcore PVE players for me it gets the job done and I enjoy it. However streamlining timers would be much appreciate. I am on Xbox so forget about casting on time out with so many different durations.

Czekoludek

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert can we get any acknowledge of this problem? Like I said before, we need to simplify our rotation, not broken buffs

burglar

Czekoludek wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert can we get any acknowledge of this problem? Like I said before, we need to simplify our rotation, not broken buffs

Magicka nightblade is the forgotten class. Well, at least melee magicka nightblade. Hopefully they will at least fix it for staff users.

blkjag

I think we need a buff if the the rotation stays the same or put us on easy mode like every magic class. The reward for learning a complex roatation was high damage. I went from 54k-49k after this patch. I still main my magblade, and love it. However you give no incentive to new players to choose this option. Should have just rolled a sorc.

Czekoludek

In my opinion giving merciless minor force buff and changing cripple timer to 8s will be a good progress. Then we will have abilities with timers: 3x20s, 2x8s and 12s. Still harder then most magicka class but not as horrible as option we have right now.

The_Lex

If there was ever a demonstration ZOS' lack any unified direction and approach for combat/class balance, it's the nightblade in this patch.

Reading the patch notes was like watching a pendulum swing back and forth....buff, nerf, etc.

And I'm not even a NB main.

IonicKai

The past patch notes I think were honestly backlash for them being so strong post Summerset. There were a lot of trial runs that were 7-8 magblades and since then they have been gutting the utility and survivability of mag as well that class in particular. This seems counter to the difficulty of play but it might be that the devs have yet to land on what they want combat to be since it takes time to make changes. It's just unfortunate that we are suffering through these changes until they land on where they want it to be.

kind_hero

I play a magicka nightblade as my main char. It feels less and less rewarding to play this class. I also play a mag sorc and a stam templar. The templar combat feels much more streamlined, more fun to play. With the NB I need to keep track of all sort of buffs, wait for procs, like the bow proc which now travels slowly and overall does less damage. Why bother? The rotation is annoying, you do not feel that you are chaining some abilities to a certain effect, you are just mashing abilities so your dots timer does not run out.

MartiniDaniels

I can't say for a magsorc, since I only have stam one, but magplar is direct contender to magblade (crit bonus), and magplar has only 5 damaging abilities in rotation, while magblade have 7 and at the same time magplar has considerably higher dps and provides valuable synergy for the group... this is simply stupid situation. And if magden low dps is was somewhat justified by PVP performance, magblade was not good at PVP, so now magblade is good in nothing, only point of class is as training machine for weaving (since LA). Same goes for magden and magcro.
Class with simpler rotation (magplar) does 7-8% more dps then classes with complex one and has better group utility. This is against golden formula "easy to learn, hard to master", this is simply wrong, let's hope ZOS will see this issue from ESO logs and address them in next update buffing magblade, magcro and magden.

SoLooney

Magblades have one of the hardest rotations to master if you're talking about recasting dots and buffs as they run out.

Now that they parse lower than magplars and sorcs. It's almost not worth putting the time into one when magplars and mag sorcs are parsing higher and have much easier rotations, esp looking at you mag sorc

They had their run, it was a fun class to play in pve. It was a class where you can clearly tell who mastered the class and the players who just have a static rotation. The nerfs to their sustain and buffs just made the class not enjoyable to play, will be shelving for now