How long do people have to talk about the furnishing plan grind before it’s changed? It’s outrageous

The702Guy

EDIT: I’m not complaining about the drop rate of furnishing plans themselves, the drop rate is fine in terms of green, blue, and purple drop rates. My issue is with area specifics ones especially dwarven, Aylied, and Murkmire since those have the absolute worst drop rates. Farming these places for countless hours just to get base game plans is the issue and it needs to be reworked. I’m not saying I don’t believe there shouldn’t be a grind, there absolutely should be, but the time spent vs what is gained is a huge issue right now and anyone who has spent time grinding the above mentioned plans knows exactly what I am talking about.

Also thank you to those who provided insight on Elsweyr, it’s a lot less discouraging hearing people having success with plans. It’s time for some of these older ones to be reworked though.

Ok this is getting absolutely ridiculous. The grind to get some of these higher end purple furnishing plans is way to much. It is literally the hardest grind in this game by far in terms of time it takes. The drop rates suck, there is no other way to put it. There is literally no reason why anyone should have to farm for HOURS on end to maybe pull 1 purple furnishing plan. There was a slight improvement with summerset last year in terms of drop rates but honestly it’s not enough. Not to mention dwarven wasn’t even touched in terms of better drop rates for the area you are farming. Why are you making it take hundreds of hours opening containers to complete one area worth of plans? I have spent at least 20 hours farming dwarven and in that time I’ve pulled 1 purple dwarven plan. Is that not an issue? I want to complete the plan collection on my crafter but honestly this grind is what is making me not want to play this game lately. It’s an absolute waste of time with the current drop rates. I know people that have only needed 1 or 2 plans to be done for months now and can’t finish because the drop rate is crazy. I personally need less then 20 and I can’t find any of the ones I need in traders or myself unless they are prices in the millions. Seriously ZoS this needs to be fixed. I get it’s meant to be a grind but it has been taken to far. When it gets to the point of constant un-enjoyment, something needs to be done. But sure, keep doing pointless character rebalances and keep ignore your housing player base.

Solution:
When farming a specific area make the drops at least 75% from the area you are farming. If you are farming Alinor, CWC, Murk, Dwarven, etc you should at the very least make it so you get plans that you are farming for. It is very frustrating to be putting in countless hours farming only to get vials, gibbets, and other garbage.

Seriously, this needs to be fixed. You are losing a large player base because of this grind. I used to really enjoy this game, but I just don’t anymore and I know plenty of others that fell the same. Please do something about it.

Tigerseye

Couldn't agree more.

Plus the price for the plans, in guild stores, is generally far too high (despite the changes to the dynamic) and the furnishing mats have now (officially) been made "rare", according to a loading screen message, I read today.

Certainly, they have felt that way, for a while, but now it is official, apparently.

So, the only people who ought to still be buying most plans is the botters, who will still get plenty of mats, regardless.

All the rest of us honest idiots should just resign ourselves to buying the furnishings from the botters/from the Crown store.

The botters that are never banned, I mean...

As, with the combination of now rare mats and expensive plans, most of us can't even expect to be able to break even on them, anymore.

Way to kick honest players in the teeth, repeatedly, while rewarding the dishonest ones.

Mizael

it's hell to grind, would be cool to change

angelncelestine

I have been complaining about drop rates since Morrowind. I thought maybe they had finally listened with Summerset and purposely gave us traitors vault. Nope was wrong about that. I definitely do not share the opinion that some have. Some people love that blueprints are rare so that they can profit from them. Usually these folks are very wealthy in game or love the grind. IMO we all pay for this content, everyone should be able to enjoy it. With that said we all know why they probably make it such a frustrating grind. They hope people will get so frustrated that they will just shop the crown store.

Cage_Lizardman

I've noticed playing Elsweyr that the drop rate for the furnishings seem a lot more generous than in Murkmire, also you can get them hunting dragons instead of going through the same dozen cabinets once an hour. Sadly, it's the Murkmire ones I want... and the grind for those is just insanely slow and boring.

Yeah I guess they want people to buy stuff from the crown store.

Tigerseye

angelncelestine wrote: »

I have been complaining about drop rates since Morrowind. I thought maybe they had finally listened with Summerset and purposely gave us traitors vault. Nope was wrong about that. I definitely do not share the opinion that some have. Some people love that blueprints are rare so that they can profit from them. Usually these folks are very wealthy in game or love the grind. IMO we all pay for this content, everyone should be able to enjoy it. With that said we all know why they probably make it such a frustrating grind. They hope people will get so frustrated that they will just shop the crown store.

Well, of course people who don't furnish will love that they are expensive...

As they get to make gold (assuming we're stupid enough to keep grossly overpaying) off the very people who appear to be expected to keep this game financially afloat, more-or-less single-handedly (other than the gambling addicts) and in exchange for being treated worse in it than any other subset of the community.

So, these people pay practicallly nothing for the game (very often), then they get rich in-game from selling their plans, rather than learning them, then on top of that they get free gifts thrown at them (most of which they won't even use) for doing trials they would have done anyway.

Some of them will (on top of all that), also, get to sell trial runs, for things like the mount and the exclusive furnishings.

That is why some of them still have the temerity to whine, as there is a somewhat similar Crown store mount, which might put a few of their customers off.

Not only that, but they get to call us "stupid", on the forums, for doing furnishing in the first place and buying their overpriced plans.

They're happy, because they are treated like kings, while the rest of us are treated like idiots.

idk

If grinding to get what you want is an issue then you are playing the wrong game. This is obvious with the gear grind. There is no reason the furnishings grind should be any better since it is a secondary aspect of the game.

ZAD1ST

I’ve been farming to learn all plans for a year now and because I actually like to do other things in this game and not live in a area farming urns anymore I am so behind. I’ve learnt 76% of all plans in game, all greens, most blues but the purples are killing me. I run trials, try and prog vet dlcs and also enjoy actually furnishing houses. I simply don’t have the time anymore to farm plans. But equally because I do all those things I don’t have time to earn the money needed to buy the missing furnishing plans because the drop rate keep the prices so high in guild stores.

If you are listening, please please please ZOS improve the drop rates of at least the older plans. If you want to keep the latest release drop rates harsh then I can live with that 😂 but please make the older ones easier.

angelncelestine

idk wrote: »

If grinding to get what you want is an issue then you are playing the wrong game. This is obvious with the gear grind. There is no reason the furnishings grind should be any better since it is a secondary aspect of the game.

I don't think anyone is saying that there shouldn't be any sort of grind, but you definitely can't compare the purple DLC/Chapter blueprint grind to gear grinding. Maybe you could with the poor guy that ran vMA 65 times, and never seen a staff drop. Even with that example the blueprint grind is extreme compared to gear.

The702Guy

idk wrote: »

If grinding to get what you want is an issue then you are playing the wrong game. This is obvious with the gear grind. There is no reason the furnishings grind should be any better since it is a secondary aspect of the game.

I think you missed the point @idk I’m not saying there should not be a grind, what I’m saying is the current grind is to ridiculous. I personally have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours grinding plans and I’m still not finished. I have purchased about 75% of the purple blueprints I know even with grinding hundreds of hours. This is no where near close to the gear grind. Imagine it like this, you want to farm necropotence sash in divines but the game can give you any other of 1600+ pieces of gear in the same pool as that one sash you want. People know this and that sash costs 500k-2m. That’s what furnishing plan farming is like.

Sturmfaenger

I'm actually quite surprised about how plentiful the offer of new Elsweyr blueprints is right now.

The guild stores are full of it, the green ones rapidly loose their value, blue ones will follow, and even if the violet ones are more expensive, they are there.

So right now, I am a lot happier with Elsweyr then I was with Summerset (before I found traitor's vault) or Murkmire (gah!) one week after the start of early access.

Olauron

idk wrote: »

If grinding to get what you want is an issue then you are playing the wrong game. This is obvious with the gear grind. There is no reason the furnishings grind should be any better since it is a secondary aspect of the game.

That is another problem. ZOS is still thinking that housing is secondary aspect of the game while charging much more for the housing. There are houses that cost ten times more than dungeon DLCs. Then there are non-craftable furnishing items that cost as much as dungeon DLC or more for a single item. And yet somehow this is secondary aspect.

VaranisArano

Olauron wrote: »

idk wrote: »

If grinding to get what you want is an issue then you are playing the wrong game. This is obvious with the gear grind. There is no reason the furnishings grind should be any better since it is a secondary aspect of the game.

That is another problem. ZOS is still thinking that housing is secondary aspect of the game while charging much more for the housing. There are houses that cost ten times more than dungeon DLCs. Then there are non-craftable furnishing items that cost as much as dungeon DLC or more for a single item. And yet somehow this is secondary aspect.

Now, I don't have access to ZOS' accountants, but I strongly suspect it IS a secondary aspect of the game. I may be rather cynical about how ZOS has handled the obvious monetization of housing, so take the following with that grain of salt.

For one, ZOS has stated that they get lots of players logging in when there's a new update and then falling away until the next time. That argues that Housing doesnt have staying power with the majority of the game's population. Most players come to ESO for story/dungeon releases and don't stick around. So ZOS' focus is going to be on the areas that attract players (new zones and dungeons) or the areas that have the most consistent draw for the most players (dungeons, trials, Cyrodiil, Battlegrounds). That's not to say they do nothing at all for housing, but rather to explain that Housing isn't a huge continuous draw for the majority of players the like of those other areas.

ZOS has to put developer energy where that effort leads to population, because players playing ESO is ultimately what keeps the lights on. Housing is comparatively low effort to making a new zone or dungeon as it's reusing a lot of assets the Devs already had to create for that other content that actually draws most players to ESO. Housing also doesnt provide the consistent revenue stream that comes from lots and lots of players playing the game, the way new zones, Dungeons, and Chapters provide predictable spikes in new and old player population.

IMO, Housing is obviously one of the most monetized aspects of the game. I think that's one of the reasons its a secondary aspect and why there are QOL issues like the grind for furnishings. Housing is useful but not essential, therefore its not pay to win - so its perfect for monetization through the crown store. It provides a second revenue stream for assets the Devs had to create anyways or reuses old assets through the Crown Store. Saying "It costs us so much to buy these houses!" Isn't really any statement of how important housing is to ESO, more like a commentary on how much they can monetize Housing for as little effort as possible. As for the grind, it's monetized in the same way as the DLC dungeon motifs or Welkynar. Either you grind (playing the game more) or you pay. I strongly suspect this is working as intended.

I understand the frustrations of the Housing Community. It sucks to feel like a part of the game you love is mostly treated as an avenue for monetization. Still, I suspect that Housing is a secondary feature precisely because its so monetized. Its great bang for the developer's buck - charging for assets they already had or take much less time to put together than the Zones or Dungeons which bring most players back to ESO or fixing up the existing dungeon/trial/PVP gamemodes to keep players occupied.

So in the end, I think that Housing has a dedicated community. But in terms of where Housing sits in the wider scope of ESO, I don't think it has the same draw as Dungeons, Cyrodiil, or new Zones. I strongly suspect that while the housing devs make an effort to sell the housing players what they say they want, Housing will continue to be monetized and to take a back seat to the New Zones, New Dungeons, New Chapters, and existing PVP gamemodes that draw the majority of players to ESO.

Sorry. It sucks if you really enjoy Housing and wish it werent so monetized or that the Devs would really spend the time and effort to make Housing as good as it could be. I don't expect it to happen. ESO's Housing is very monetized, will continue to be so, and I strongly expect it to continue to be an exercise in how little effort (compared to new DLC and Chapters, anyway) the devs can put in while still making their profit margin off it.

worrallj

They can be purchased in guild stores though right? I know they're expensive but it is an option. Plenty of ways to make gold

bluebird

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

idk wrote: »

If grinding to get what you want is an issue then you are playing the wrong game. This is obvious with the gear grind. There is no reason the furnishings grind should be any better since it is a secondary aspect of the game.

That is another problem. ZOS is still thinking that housing is secondary aspect of the game while charging much more for the housing. There are houses that cost ten times more than dungeon DLCs. Then there are non-craftable furnishing items that cost as much as dungeon DLC or more for a single item. And yet somehow this is secondary aspect.

Now, I don't have access to ZOS' accountants, but I strongly suspect it IS a secondary aspect of the game. I may be rather cynical about how ZOS has handled the obvious monetization of housing, so take the following with that grain of salt.

For one, ZOS has stated that they get lots of players logging in when there's a new update and then falling away until the next time. That argues that Housing doesnt have staying power with the majority of the game's population. Most players come to ESO for story/dungeon releases and don't stick around. So ZOS' focus is going to be on the areas that attract players (new zones and dungeons) or the areas that have the most consistent draw for the most players (dungeons, trials, Cyrodiil, Battlegrounds). That's not to say they do nothing at all for housing, but rather to explain that Housing isn't a huge continuous draw for the majority of players the like of those other areas.

ZOS has to put developer energy where that effort leads to population, because players playing ESO is ultimately what keeps the lights on. Housing is comparatively low effort to making a new zone or dungeon as it's reusing a lot of assets the Devs already had to create for that other content that actually draws most players to ESO. Housing also doesnt provide the consistent revenue stream that comes from lots and lots of players playing the game, the way new zones, Dungeons, and Chapters provide predictable spikes in new and old player population.

IMO, Housing is obviously one of the most monetized aspects of the game. I think that's one of the reasons its a secondary aspect and why there are QOL issues like the grind for furnishings. Housing is useful but not essential, therefore its not pay to win - so its perfect for monetization through the crown store. It provides a second revenue stream for assets the Devs had to create anyways or reuses old assets through the Crown Store. Saying "It costs us so much to buy these houses!" Isn't really any statement of how important housing is to ESO, more like a commentary on how much they can monetize Housing for as little effort as possible. As for the grind, it's monetized in the same way as the DLC dungeon motifs or Welkynar. Either you grind (playing the game more) or you pay. I strongly suspect this is working as intended.

I understand the frustrations of the Housing Community. It sucks to feel like a part of the game you love is mostly treated as an avenue for monetization. Still, I suspect that Housing is a secondary feature precisely because its so monetized. Its great bang for the developer's buck - charging for assets they already had or take much less time to put together than the Zones or Dungeons which bring most players back to ESO or fixing up the existing dungeon/trial/PVP gamemodes to keep players occupied.

So in the end, I think that Housing has a dedicated community. But in terms of where Housing sits in the wider scope of ESO, I don't think it has the same draw as Dungeons, Cyrodiil, or new Zones. I strongly suspect that while the housing devs make an effort to sell the housing players what they say they want, Housing will continue to be monetized and to take a back seat to the New Zones, New Dungeons, New Chapters, and existing PVP gamemodes that draw the majority of players to ESO.

Sorry. It sucks if you really enjoy Housing and wish it werent so monetized or that the Devs would really spend the time and effort to make Housing as good as it could be. I don't expect it to happen. ESO's Housing is very monetized, will continue to be so, and I strongly expect it to continue to be an exercise in how little effort (compared to new DLC and Chapters, anyway) the devs can put in while still making their profit margin off it.

[Put the quote behind spoiler tag due to length]

You make some good points, but I think the conclusion is wrong (not necessarily yours, but ZOS's, if they think that way).

For starters, the number of logins shouldn't be an important indication to them at all. As the game is free to play with many non-monetized aspects, even regular logins don't generate revenue - people logging in for daily battlegrounds or dungeons aren't generating a single dime for ZOS, neither are people who roleplay every day or who log in to decorate gold-bought homes with gold-bought furniture. If everybody buys Elsweyr but nobody logs in, or if they log in for a week and then leave, they still made the same money. The sub model is the same, ESO+ being a monthly sub not a game-time-based sub. So ZOS generates the same revenue whether or not people regularly log in.

But if a person buys even one Crown Store manor (let's say 15k for the sake of this example, not even the highest they are sold for) they already generated more money than if somebody stayed a sub for half a year!!! And they add like 8 new houses every year, so... Since housing is mostly just assetflipping ZOS must be insane to not consider housing important.

If ZOS neglects the housing community (e.g. by disappointing them when they have no relevant housing improvements to show for all the money they pour into housing) who will generate revenue for them? The majority of non-ESO+subs who run pledges and trials and do quests for free all year? The PvPers who log in and play Cyro and BGs at no cost whatsoever? Oh wait, I guess the RP-ers will be the next milking cow since you can sell three very similarly designed variations on basically the same dress to them for 10 dollars each?

Log-ins aren't keeping the lights on, PvP isn't keeping the lights on, ESO+ isn't keeping the lights on. It's the Crown Store, and items like the recent Treasure Hunter Outfit that costs more than an entire month of sub, and houses and crown furniture packs that pay for 3/6/9 months of sub each. And based on the focus of ZOS, they are forgetting that.

The level of attention and the amount of content and impactful development that goes into ESO's various aspects is outrageously disproportionate. How much revenue did the 'zone guide' and the 'guild trader UI revamp' and PvP Artifacts and the new BG map generate exactly, compared to housing? And note that the initial cost difference is already astronomical (all the former being free with the latter costing literal 100s of dollars), nevermind the extra costs (i.e. sure some PvP enthusiast may have purchased a Crown costume to look better because the fun PvP made him stay, but I'm not even counting that as I'm also not counting how many extra crowns housing fans spend to make their homes presentable).

So if housing is indeed a highly monetized aspect of the game (it is) that takes significantly less time (assetflipping) than developing an entirely new zone or two entirely new dungeons, but still generates more money than those DLCs themselves and the whatever months of subscription people would pay if free updates make them stay, it should be a priority. Or at least it shouldn't be hushed up, and shouldn't be low-quality, and shouldn't ignore feedback when the existing problems are already causing a lot of players to turn away from housing in frustration. An unhappy cash cow will eventually dry up. And where would that leave ZOS's revenue then?

The702Guy

worrallj wrote: »

They can be purchased in guild stores though right? I know they're expensive but it is an option. Plenty of ways to make gold

@worrallj yes they can be, but when you get to the point I’m currently at I need 19 more plans and every one of them go for 600k-3m I’m traders. And that’s if you can even find them in traders because some plans just don’t drop but once in a blue moon. The issue I have is my crafter is my main focus in this game. I’ve done most of the other content already. The drop rates just need to be upped. Not even necessarily the drop rates of plans, but ones for the area you are farming in vs base game. It’s not a joke when I say that I’ve spent 20+ hours I’m dwarven and gotten 1 dwarven Purple. There are around 20 dwarven purple plans in this game. Should it really take 400 hours of farming to get 20 plans? And that’s if you don’t even count duplicates. It truly needs to be reworked, there is not a single grind in this game that is that outrageous compared to this.

VaranisArano

bluebird wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

idk wrote: »

If grinding to get what you want is an issue then you are playing the wrong game. This is obvious with the gear grind. There is no reason the furnishings grind should be any better since it is a secondary aspect of the game.

That is another problem. ZOS is still thinking that housing is secondary aspect of the game while charging much more for the housing. There are houses that cost ten times more than dungeon DLCs. Then there are non-craftable furnishing items that cost as much as dungeon DLC or more for a single item. And yet somehow this is secondary aspect.

Now, I don't have access to ZOS' accountants, but I strongly suspect it IS a secondary aspect of the game. I may be rather cynical about how ZOS has handled the obvious monetization of housing, so take the following with that grain of salt.

For one, ZOS has stated that they get lots of players logging in when there's a new update and then falling away until the next time. That argues that Housing doesnt have staying power with the majority of the game's population. Most players come to ESO for story/dungeon releases and don't stick around. So ZOS' focus is going to be on the areas that attract players (new zones and dungeons) or the areas that have the most consistent draw for the most players (dungeons, trials, Cyrodiil, Battlegrounds). That's not to say they do nothing at all for housing, but rather to explain that Housing isn't a huge continuous draw for the majority of players the like of those other areas.

ZOS has to put developer energy where that effort leads to population, because players playing ESO is ultimately what keeps the lights on. Housing is comparatively low effort to making a new zone or dungeon as it's reusing a lot of assets the Devs already had to create for that other content that actually draws most players to ESO. Housing also doesnt provide the consistent revenue stream that comes from lots and lots of players playing the game, the way new zones, Dungeons, and Chapters provide predictable spikes in new and old player population.

IMO, Housing is obviously one of the most monetized aspects of the game. I think that's one of the reasons its a secondary aspect and why there are QOL issues like the grind for furnishings. Housing is useful but not essential, therefore its not pay to win - so its perfect for monetization through the crown store. It provides a second revenue stream for assets the Devs had to create anyways or reuses old assets through the Crown Store. Saying "It costs us so much to buy these houses!" Isn't really any statement of how important housing is to ESO, more like a commentary on how much they can monetize Housing for as little effort as possible. As for the grind, it's monetized in the same way as the DLC dungeon motifs or Welkynar. Either you grind (playing the game more) or you pay. I strongly suspect this is working as intended.

I understand the frustrations of the Housing Community. It sucks to feel like a part of the game you love is mostly treated as an avenue for monetization. Still, I suspect that Housing is a secondary feature precisely because its so monetized. Its great bang for the developer's buck - charging for assets they already had or take much less time to put together than the Zones or Dungeons which bring most players back to ESO or fixing up the existing dungeon/trial/PVP gamemodes to keep players occupied.

So in the end, I think that Housing has a dedicated community. But in terms of where Housing sits in the wider scope of ESO, I don't think it has the same draw as Dungeons, Cyrodiil, or new Zones. I strongly suspect that while the housing devs make an effort to sell the housing players what they say they want, Housing will continue to be monetized and to take a back seat to the New Zones, New Dungeons, New Chapters, and existing PVP gamemodes that draw the majority of players to ESO.

Sorry. It sucks if you really enjoy Housing and wish it werent so monetized or that the Devs would really spend the time and effort to make Housing as good as it could be. I don't expect it to happen. ESO's Housing is very monetized, will continue to be so, and I strongly expect it to continue to be an exercise in how little effort (compared to new DLC and Chapters, anyway) the devs can put in while still making their profit margin off it.

[Put the quote behind spoiler tag due to length]

You make some good points, but I think the conclusion is wrong (not necessarily yours, but ZOS's, if they think that way).

For starters, the number of logins shouldn't be an important indication to them at all. As the game is free to play with many non-monetized aspects, even regular logins don't generate revenue - people logging in for daily battlegrounds or dungeons aren't generating a single dime for ZOS, neither are people who roleplay every day or who log in to decorate gold-bought homes with gold-bought furniture. If everybody buys Elsweyr but nobody logs in, or if they log in for a week and then leave, they still made the same money. The sub model is the same, ESO+ being a monthly sub not a game-time-based sub. So ZOS generates the same revenue whether or not people regularly log in.

But if a person buys even one Crown Store manor (let's say 15k for the sake of this example, not even the highest they are sold for) they already generated more money than if somebody stayed a sub for half a year!!! And they add like 8 new houses every year, so... Since housing is mostly just assetflipping ZOS must be insane to not consider housing important.

If ZOS neglects the housing community (e.g. by disappointing them when they have no relevant housing improvements to show for all the money they pour into housing) who will generate revenue for them? The majority of non-ESO+subs who run pledges and trials and do quests for free all year? The PvPers who log in and play Cyro and BGs at no cost whatsoever? Oh wait, I guess the RP-ers will be the next milking cow since you can sell three very similarly designed variations on basically the same dress to them for 10 dollars each?

Log-ins aren't keeping the lights on, PvP isn't keeping the lights on, ESO+ isn't keeping the lights on. It's the Crown Store, and items like the recent Treasure Hunter Outfit that costs more than an entire month of sub, and houses and crown furniture packs that pay for 3/6/9 months of sub each. And based on the focus of ZOS, they are forgetting that.

The level of attention and the amount of content and impactful development that goes into ESO's various aspects is outrageously disproportionate. How much revenue did the 'zone guide' and the 'guild trader UI revamp' and PvP Artifacts and the new BG map generate exactly, compared to housing? And note that the initial cost difference is already astronomical (all the former being free with the latter costing literal 100s of dollars), nevermind the extra costs (i.e. sure some PvP enthusiast may have purchased a Crown costume to look better because the fun PvP made him stay, but I'm not even counting that as I'm also not counting how many extra crowns housing fans spend to make their homes presentable).

So if housing is indeed a highly monetized aspect of the game (it is) that takes significantly less time (assetflipping) than developing an entirely new zone or two entirely new dungeons, but still generates more money than those DLCs themselves and the whatever months of subscription people would pay if free updates make them stay, it should be a priority. Or at least it shouldn't be hushed up, and shouldn't be low-quality, and shouldn't ignore feedback when the existing problems are already causing a lot of players to turn away from housing in frustration. An unhappy cash cow will eventually dry up. And where would that leave ZOS's revenue then?

Would it be fair to say that Housing enthusiasts feel like ZOS is killing the goose that laid the golden egg?

bluebird

VaranisArano wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

idk wrote: »

If grinding to get what you want is an issue then you are playing the wrong game. This is obvious with the gear grind. There is no reason the furnishings grind should be any better since it is a secondary aspect of the game.

That is another problem. ZOS is still thinking that housing is secondary aspect of the game while charging much more for the housing. There are houses that cost ten times more than dungeon DLCs. Then there are non-craftable furnishing items that cost as much as dungeon DLC or more for a single item. And yet somehow this is secondary aspect.

Now, I don't have access to ZOS' accountants, but I strongly suspect it IS a secondary aspect of the game. I may be rather cynical about how ZOS has handled the obvious monetization of housing, so take the following with that grain of salt.

For one, ZOS has stated that they get lots of players logging in when there's a new update and then falling away until the next time. That argues that Housing doesnt have staying power with the majority of the game's population. Most players come to ESO for story/dungeon releases and don't stick around. So ZOS' focus is going to be on the areas that attract players (new zones and dungeons) or the areas that have the most consistent draw for the most players (dungeons, trials, Cyrodiil, Battlegrounds). That's not to say they do nothing at all for housing, but rather to explain that Housing isn't a huge continuous draw for the majority of players the like of those other areas.

ZOS has to put developer energy where that effort leads to population, because players playing ESO is ultimately what keeps the lights on. Housing is comparatively low effort to making a new zone or dungeon as it's reusing a lot of assets the Devs already had to create for that other content that actually draws most players to ESO. Housing also doesnt provide the consistent revenue stream that comes from lots and lots of players playing the game, the way new zones, Dungeons, and Chapters provide predictable spikes in new and old player population.

IMO, Housing is obviously one of the most monetized aspects of the game. I think that's one of the reasons its a secondary aspect and why there are QOL issues like the grind for furnishings. Housing is useful but not essential, therefore its not pay to win - so its perfect for monetization through the crown store. It provides a second revenue stream for assets the Devs had to create anyways or reuses old assets through the Crown Store. Saying "It costs us so much to buy these houses!" Isn't really any statement of how important housing is to ESO, more like a commentary on how much they can monetize Housing for as little effort as possible. As for the grind, it's monetized in the same way as the DLC dungeon motifs or Welkynar. Either you grind (playing the game more) or you pay. I strongly suspect this is working as intended.

I understand the frustrations of the Housing Community. It sucks to feel like a part of the game you love is mostly treated as an avenue for monetization. Still, I suspect that Housing is a secondary feature precisely because its so monetized. Its great bang for the developer's buck - charging for assets they already had or take much less time to put together than the Zones or Dungeons which bring most players back to ESO or fixing up the existing dungeon/trial/PVP gamemodes to keep players occupied.

So in the end, I think that Housing has a dedicated community. But in terms of where Housing sits in the wider scope of ESO, I don't think it has the same draw as Dungeons, Cyrodiil, or new Zones. I strongly suspect that while the housing devs make an effort to sell the housing players what they say they want, Housing will continue to be monetized and to take a back seat to the New Zones, New Dungeons, New Chapters, and existing PVP gamemodes that draw the majority of players to ESO.

Sorry. It sucks if you really enjoy Housing and wish it werent so monetized or that the Devs would really spend the time and effort to make Housing as good as it could be. I don't expect it to happen. ESO's Housing is very monetized, will continue to be so, and I strongly expect it to continue to be an exercise in how little effort (compared to new DLC and Chapters, anyway) the devs can put in while still making their profit margin off it.

[Put the quote behind spoiler tag due to length]

You make some good points, but I think the conclusion is wrong (not necessarily yours, but ZOS's, if they think that way).

For starters, the number of logins shouldn't be an important indication to them at all. As the game is free to play with many non-monetized aspects, even regular logins don't generate revenue - people logging in for daily battlegrounds or dungeons aren't generating a single dime for ZOS, neither are people who roleplay every day or who log in to decorate gold-bought homes with gold-bought furniture. If everybody buys Elsweyr but nobody logs in, or if they log in for a week and then leave, they still made the same money. The sub model is the same, ESO+ being a monthly sub not a game-time-based sub. So ZOS generates the same revenue whether or not people regularly log in.

But if a person buys even one Crown Store manor (let's say 15k for the sake of this example, not even the highest they are sold for) they already generated more money than if somebody stayed a sub for half a year!!! And they add like 8 new houses every year, so... Since housing is mostly just assetflipping ZOS must be insane to not consider housing important.

If ZOS neglects the housing community (e.g. by disappointing them when they have no relevant housing improvements to show for all the money they pour into housing) who will generate revenue for them? The majority of non-ESO+subs who run pledges and trials and do quests for free all year? The PvPers who log in and play Cyro and BGs at no cost whatsoever? Oh wait, I guess the RP-ers will be the next milking cow since you can sell three very similarly designed variations on basically the same dress to them for 10 dollars each?

Log-ins aren't keeping the lights on, PvP isn't keeping the lights on, ESO+ isn't keeping the lights on. It's the Crown Store, and items like the recent Treasure Hunter Outfit that costs more than an entire month of sub, and houses and crown furniture packs that pay for 3/6/9 months of sub each. And based on the focus of ZOS, they are forgetting that.

The level of attention and the amount of content and impactful development that goes into ESO's various aspects is outrageously disproportionate. How much revenue did the 'zone guide' and the 'guild trader UI revamp' and PvP Artifacts and the new BG map generate exactly, compared to housing? And note that the initial cost difference is already astronomical (all the former being free with the latter costing literal 100s of dollars), nevermind the extra costs (i.e. sure some PvP enthusiast may have purchased a Crown costume to look better because the fun PvP made him stay, but I'm not even counting that as I'm also not counting how many extra crowns housing fans spend to make their homes presentable).

So if housing is indeed a highly monetized aspect of the game (it is) that takes significantly less time (assetflipping) than developing an entirely new zone or two entirely new dungeons, but still generates more money than those DLCs themselves and the whatever months of subscription people would pay if free updates make them stay, it should be a priority. Or at least it shouldn't be hushed up, and shouldn't be low-quality, and shouldn't ignore feedback when the existing problems are already causing a lot of players to turn away from housing in frustration. An unhappy cash cow will eventually dry up. And where would that leave ZOS's revenue then?

Would it be fair to say that Housing enthusiasts feel like ZOS is killing the goose that laid the golden egg?

I can't really say what housing enthusiasts feel like, but ZOS certainly didn't earn many brownie points in our books recently. The lack of new master writ blueprints, and the inability to purchase Summerset, Mukrmire, CWC, and Elsweyr blueprints for writ vouchers as we could with Morrowind ones is quite annoying. They set the standard, and not only do they not improve upon it but even seem to move backwards!

The topic of purple furnishing blueprint drop rates is one of those steps back - the sore lack of Murkmire containers, and the low drop chances of rare blueprints (I haven't got a single purple Elsweyr pattern but dozens of blues) all add to a large number of other persistent frustrations with the housing system. And it certainly does rankle that despite the disproportionate cost compared to other aspects of gameplay housing continues to be an afterthought.

Cage_Lizardman

bluebird wrote: »

I can't really say what housing enthusiasts feel like, but ZOS certainly didn't earn many brownie points in our books recently. The lack of new master writ blueprints, and the inability to purchase Summerset, Mukrmire, CWC, and Elsweyr blueprints for writ vouchers as we could with Morrowind ones is quite annoying.

^ Yes please this. Vouchers need more uses.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

They arent supose to be comon

angelncelestine

Purple blueprints from old chapter/DLC content should absolutely be more common then they are. ZO$ has had plenty of time to profit from the furnishings off of the crown store. Also the wealthy players that can drop crap tons of gold on the blueprints have had plenty of time to profit from the furniture. So really no one should have any complaints about old blueprint drop rates raised or added to the writ merchant. Only the selfish would. I do agree though some should be kept rare, and that is fine. Like those darn Ayleid bookshelf blueprints that I have been trying to get for years.

Imperial_Voice

Well its been four years so... /shrug

JadeCoin

It isn't just a housing issue, it's also a crafting issue. There's significant overlap between housing enthusiasts and crafters (though some people are only one or the other).

There are very few things for a crafter to do as a crafter at endgame. Collecting motifs is one of them, but it's less directly relevant to crafting than it used to be, due to the outfit system. If you look at the offerings in the Master Writ vendors, it's pretty clear that collecting furnishing plans and making furnishings is one of the things that advanced crafters are supposed to be doing with their time in the game.

Beyond 6 traits and level 50 skill, crafting has been relegated almost entirely to cosmetics. (Easily crafted top-tier gear would certainly not be healthy for the game, so doubtless there are reasons for this.) Herein lies the the problem: cosmetics is the territory of the Crown Store, its home turf. The two are set up as "competitors" in a way that has the potential to hurt crafting.

There are a lot of possible solutions to the problem, but I don't think there needs to be a radical rework of crafting for the situation to improve. Really what @angelncelestine suggests would be perfectly sufficient. Let the blueprints be rare for a period of time after new content is released, then add them into the Master Writ vendor, increase the drop rate, and/or introduce new ways to obtain them (quests/dailies/boss drops would all be great). The Crown Store will sell plenty of furnishings to people who want to be the first to have the new furnishings and/or don't care about crafting them, and the people who do care about crafting them can get the plans down the road, when the Crown Store is focused on selling the next round.

The important thing is to allow some kind of reasonable compromise. Because if the Crown Store just sets out to crush the competition, it might crush crafting in the process.

Ilision

I do not want to sound like I am complaining here but due to being a new player, I thought I would leave my two cents in with the rest.

So, I have started playing again about two weeks ago. I have had the game since it was out but quit soon thereafter due to some issues/frustrations. Since I have been back, I want to tell you that I absolutely love it. I do however agree that getting furnishing plans is like looking for a needle in a haystack. It should be noted that I have leveled to level 50 in these few weeks and unfortunately have not got a single blueprint reference furniture. I have collected a few statutes and reward items in general from doing dungeons, delves and so forth. Collected lots of treasure maps/food recipes but no furniture ones.

In conclusion, I wish it was a bit easier. As some have mentioned above, blueprints are expansive and as a new player that does not have 12 hours a day to farm, I can only do so much.

I just want to enjoy all of the aspects of the game and not just what's available to me if I play 12 hours a day

Just my opinion, don't be mean...

Mix

Elsweyr has a substantially better drop rate of furniture plans than Murkmire and is probably on par with Summerset after the Traitor's Vault nerf (which was simply a very convenient farming spot).

You have two real options in Elsweyr: kill dragons for Document Pouches or run around looting containers. Locations with good container concentrations are: Rimmen Palace, Tenmar Temple and Sandswirl Manor. All can be accessed without doing a single quest. I prefer Rimmen Palace even though Sandswirl has more containers because there is less backtracking and no hostile mobs.

I have already collected 66/151 new plans. Mostly looted myself, trade dupes within guild (sitting on 11 blue dupes atm lol) and bought a few of the purples when I saw them at 200k or less.

Murkmire by comparison I had to buy most of them because farming locations weren't good (stealing through Lilmoth and Bright-Throad) and the drop chance was VERY VERY LOW!

I am OK with the furniture drop chance in Elsweyr. I like that there is a combat option for those who really dislike container farming, although personally I don't get enough Doc Pouches to make Dragons more efficient than container farm (about 1 elsweyr plan per 25 minutes container farming). Dragons have a lot more RNG because you have to get the correct bag!

Edit: for newer players I recommend joining a housing guild. Personally I love to craft for guildies and just require materials (tips optional) and a list of what you need made Hearthlight (NA) is an amazing guild!

VaranisArano

Ilision wrote: »

I do not want to sound like I am complaining here but due to being a new player, I thought I would leave my two cents in with the rest.

So, I have started playing again about two weeks ago. I have had the game since it was out but quit soon thereafter due to some issues/frustrations. Since I have been back, I want to tell you that I absolutely love it. I do however agree that getting furnishing plans is like looking for a needle in a haystack. It should be noted that I have leveled to level 50 in these few weeks and unfortunately have not got a single blueprint reference furniture. I have collected a few statutes and reward items in general from doing dungeons, delves and so forth. Collected lots of treasure maps/food recipes but no furniture ones.

In conclusion, I wish it was a bit easier. As some have mentioned above, blueprints are expansive and as a new player that does not have 12 hours a day to farm, I can only do so much.

I just want to enjoy all of the aspects of the game and not just what's available to me if I play 12 hours a day

Just my opinion, don't be mean...

Its a fine opinion.

Though as a newer player, you may not be aware that ZOS explicitly intends for Housing to be a grind. When they first introduced it with Homestead, housing is intended to be a long-term activity where you get a house and slowly accumulate furnishings and decorate it how you like.

So if it feels frustrating to try to jump right into housing and accomplish everything you want to, that's kind of by design. I suggest taking it slow. If you really want to do ambitious projects quickly, I recommend focusing on gaining gold through trading so you can buy what you need.

Imperial_Voice

VaranisArano wrote: »

Ilision wrote: »

I do not want to sound like I am complaining here but due to being a new player, I thought I would leave my two cents in with the rest.

So, I have started playing again about two weeks ago. I have had the game since it was out but quit soon thereafter due to some issues/frustrations. Since I have been back, I want to tell you that I absolutely love it. I do however agree that getting furnishing plans is like looking for a needle in a haystack. It should be noted that I have leveled to level 50 in these few weeks and unfortunately have not got a single blueprint reference furniture. I have collected a few statutes and reward items in general from doing dungeons, delves and so forth. Collected lots of treasure maps/food recipes but no furniture ones.

In conclusion, I wish it was a bit easier. As some have mentioned above, blueprints are expansive and as a new player that does not have 12 hours a day to farm, I can only do so much.

I just want to enjoy all of the aspects of the game and not just what's available to me if I play 12 hours a day

Just my opinion, don't be mean...

Its a fine opinion.

Though as a newer player, you may not be aware that ZOS explicitly intends for Housing to be a grind. When they first introduced it with Homestead, housing is intended to be a long-term activity where you get a house and slowly accumulate furnishings and decorate it how you like.

So if it feels frustrating to try to jump right into housing and accomplish everything you want to, that's kind of by design. I suggest taking it slow. If you really want to do ambitious projects quickly, I recommend focusing on gaining gold through trading so you can buy what you need.

If you want to do ambitious projects its best to find a different game as this one inhibits creativity by imploying timegates to create artificial scarcity and arbitrary item limits to keep your from filling a house.

mayasunrising

Personally, I'm okay with rare plans being rare, and okay with having to grind to get them. That said, I don't think the drop rates for Elsewyr plans are all that horrid. 2 nights ago I spent about an hour slaying dragons. In that time I picked two purple plans, about 4 blue, and a score of fun green ones. And pretty much every day I go on and hunt dragons a bit I'm getting more. so I think it is better.

But again, I'm coming from a mindset that in a persistent world MMO things should take time, and epic/legendary items should be rarities.

Pronto

The702Guy wrote: »

I have spent at least 20 hours farming dwarven and in that time I’ve pulled 1 purple dwarven plan. Is that not an issue?

Those are rookie numbers. You need to get those numbers up.

I agree that the RNG grind can be crazy but you can say that in any aspect of the game, not just furnishing. I ran HRC hundreds of times and spent months getting AY daggers. When I got both of my daggers, the next run I did I got 2 daggers in the same run... it always seems to be whenever you don't need something or when you're not thinking about it is when they start to drop.

Heavy RNG is part of the game and has been for a lot of MMOs. If it's getting to the point where you are no longer enjoying the game because you are not getting what you want, try and take a break or maybe focus on another aspect of the game. I never was into Housing or furnishing grinds but I can't imagine trying to collect all of those recipes and designs, but in reality a lot of the enjoyment comes from the grind and working hard in attaining those hard-to-acquire items.

angelncelestine

mayasunrising wrote: »

Personally, I'm okay with rare plans being rare, and okay with having to grind to get them. That said, I don't think the drop rates for Elsewyr plans are all that horrid. 2 nights ago I spent about an hour slaying dragons. In that time I picked two purple plans, about 4 blue, and a score of fun green ones. And pretty much every day I go on and hunt dragons a bit I'm getting more. so I think it is better.

But again, I'm coming from a mindset that in a persistent world MMO things should take time, and epic/legendary items should be rarities.

You were certainly blessed by the RNG Gods. Other then last night because I decided to take a break I have been grinding dragons/ looting for 1-2 hrs a night. So far only 1 purple, hardly any blue, and lots of greens.

The702Guy

mayasunrising wrote: »

Personally, I'm okay with rare plans being rare, and okay with having to grind to get them. That said, I don't think the drop rates for Elsewyr plans are all that horrid. 2 nights ago I spent about an hour slaying dragons. In that time I picked two purple plans, about 4 blue, and a score of fun green ones. And pretty much every day I go on and hunt dragons a bit I'm getting more. so I think it is better.

But again, I'm coming from a mindset that in a persistent world MMO things should take time, and epic/legendary items should be rarities.

I agree that they should be rare, I’m in no way advocating that plans should just be give easily but the whole system for non base game plans needs a drop rate rework. I’m glad to hear elsweyr is going so well. My main concern is dwarven mostly but also alyied and Murkmire which both also have terrible drop rates. If what I suggested above is put into place (75% of plans that you receive are from the area you are farming in e.g. 75% of plans you get out of dwarven urns are dwarven) then there would still be a grind to get plans but the time put in would be worth it. I don’t think the quality drop rate needs to be boosted it’s fine as is, the issue is the plans you receive while farming.