Magicka necromancer in pvp is totally broken

Waffennacht

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wheem_ESO wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Class is incredible. This is a learn to play issue.

I had some people try to argue similar things on the PTS forums, but with one singular exception (which was mentioning the broken Stamina/Health build that could achieve a ~30k damage tooltip on the Goliath's AOE/Cone bash), no one ever provided any substance. They just assured me, and others, that we were all bad and didn't know what we were doing, and that the class was actually amazing. But without some sort of evidence, I'm just going to continue to dismiss those claims out of hand (unless you're talking about in a healer or support role).

Show us some video(s) of you on a Magicka Necromancer, taking down some not-bad players. It can be duels, 1vX or small group fights in Cyrodiil, or Battlegrounds - it doesn't matter, as long as we can see the Necromancer doing well against decent opposition (ie, not 4-man tryharding in BGs against teams of randoms that aren't even full). I found one video online right after early access started, where a guy on a Magicka Necromancer went something like 17-2-12 in a BG, and most people in the comments seemed to think this was demonstrative of the class' prowess. Problem is, he had barely 400k damage at the end of the match; against decent players you won't get anywhere near 17-2-12 if you're doing so little damage.

If you don't have any video clips, and don't want to record any, at least tell us what gear and skill setup you're using, along with some advice on how to make the class "incredible." I'm open to the possibility that I've missed something, but I'm really, really skeptical on that front.

That's the issue; many players assume they are good while in actuality they're mediocre at best. When video proof is provided it's usually against low level non-CC using inexperienced players.

Fact of the matter is that any class can look good against over-confident opponents.

There's no secret skill we don't see; there's no secret set combination that we haven't gone over; there isn't some Uber morph we missed.

We have gone over every single combination possible; there's no "give it time to discover it's hidden potential"

Nogawd

These whiners want it all and want it yesterday.

Mesoz

Nogawd wrote: »

These whiners want it all and want it yesterday.

No we just want class that works properly. Having your main damage ability being something slow moving, gets stuck on terrain, gets confused where the hell it's supposed to go. And sometimes standing still doing nothing is not fun.

Now when things actually function properly the class isn't thaaaaaaaat bad. But 80% of the time things are just not working right. It needs some tweaks to it.

They had feedback during all of PTS for these issues, and they chose to do nothing. Oh, no, they made blast bones slower. So they did do one thing.

Derra

Waffennacht wrote: »

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wheem_ESO wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Class is incredible. This is a learn to play issue.

I had some people try to argue similar things on the PTS forums, but with one singular exception (which was mentioning the broken Stamina/Health build that could achieve a ~30k damage tooltip on the Goliath's AOE/Cone bash), no one ever provided any substance. They just assured me, and others, that we were all bad and didn't know what we were doing, and that the class was actually amazing. But without some sort of evidence, I'm just going to continue to dismiss those claims out of hand (unless you're talking about in a healer or support role).

Show us some video(s) of you on a Magicka Necromancer, taking down some not-bad players. It can be duels, 1vX or small group fights in Cyrodiil, or Battlegrounds - it doesn't matter, as long as we can see the Necromancer doing well against decent opposition (ie, not 4-man tryharding in BGs against teams of randoms that aren't even full). I found one video online right after early access started, where a guy on a Magicka Necromancer went something like 17-2-12 in a BG, and most people in the comments seemed to think this was demonstrative of the class' prowess. Problem is, he had barely 400k damage at the end of the match; against decent players you won't get anywhere near 17-2-12 if you're doing so little damage.

If you don't have any video clips, and don't want to record any, at least tell us what gear and skill setup you're using, along with some advice on how to make the class "incredible." I'm open to the possibility that I've missed something, but I'm really, really skeptical on that front.

That's the issue; many players assume they are good while in actuality they're mediocre at best. When video proof is provided it's usually against low level non-CC using inexperienced players.

Fact of the matter is that any class can look good against over-confident opponents.

There's no secret skill we don't see; there's no secret set combination that we haven't gone over; there isn't some Uber morph we missed.

We have gone over every single combination possible; there's no "give it time to discover it's hidden potential"

I kinda disagree and agree with this statement at the same time.

For some classes/builds there have been somewhat secret OP build or skill combinations in the past that only few players knew about and utilized - even amongst the good ones.

The issue with necro however lie elsewhere and this is why i´d agree with you: Necro can not discover secret potential because their skills simply do not work consistently or at all how they should.
You can not find potential when the things you´re supposed to work with flatout don´t work or stop working in certain scenarios.

SacredEarth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROGS9Amtkd0

DokThor90

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

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wheem_ESO wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Class is incredible. This is a learn to play issue.

I had some people try to argue similar things on the PTS forums, but with one singular exception (which was mentioning the broken Stamina/Health build that could achieve a ~30k damage tooltip on the Goliath's AOE/Cone bash), no one ever provided any substance. They just assured me, and others, that we were all bad and didn't know what we were doing, and that the class was actually amazing. But without some sort of evidence, I'm just going to continue to dismiss those claims out of hand (unless you're talking about in a healer or support role).

Show us some video(s) of you on a Magicka Necromancer, taking down some not-bad players. It can be duels, 1vX or small group fights in Cyrodiil, or Battlegrounds - it doesn't matter, as long as we can see the Necromancer doing well against decent opposition (ie, not 4-man tryharding in BGs against teams of randoms that aren't even full). I found one video online right after early access started, where a guy on a Magicka Necromancer went something like 17-2-12 in a BG, and most people in the comments seemed to think this was demonstrative of the class' prowess. Problem is, he had barely 400k damage at the end of the match; against decent players you won't get anywhere near 17-2-12 if you're doing so little damage.

If you don't have any video clips, and don't want to record any, at least tell us what gear and skill setup you're using, along with some advice on how to make the class "incredible." I'm open to the possibility that I've missed something, but I'm really, really skeptical on that front.

That's the issue; many players assume they are good while in actuality they're mediocre at best. When video proof is provided it's usually against low level non-CC using inexperienced players.

Fact of the matter is that any class can look good against over-confident opponents.

There's no secret skill we don't see; there's no secret set combination that we haven't gone over; there isn't some Uber morph we missed.

We have gone over every single combination possible; there's no "give it time to discover it's hidden potential"

I kinda disagree and agree with this statement at the same time.

For some classes/builds there have been somewhat secret OP build or skill combinations in the past that only few players knew about and utilized - even amongst the good ones.

The issue with necro however lie elsewhere and this is why i´d agree with you: Necro can not discover secret potential because their skills simply do not work consistently or at all how they should.
You can not find potential when the things you´re supposed to work with flatout don´t work or stop working in certain scenarios.

I agree, though for necro I think u definetly should lool for "non Meta" stuff. The BRP destro is pretty good on magcro, its buffed by 10% and adds minor mangle - just see it as dw master axe.

Many people already asked me about my magro 1vX build, Bit I dont wanna go into more detail, because I dont wanna them nerfy stuff, Bit brp destro is a good start, nuff said.

DokThor90

SacredEarth wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROGS9Amtkd0

Trash

Neloth

Honestly guys you need to give a more constructive feedback in dedicated threads, or try to communicate with ZoS using class reps. Right now we have 2 general threads about necromancer, where the discussion looks like:

- necromancer is just bad, blastbones bugged, no dots, I payed and lost my money
- necromancer OP, l2p, a-za-za
- but blast bones are bugged, and necromancer has no mobility!
- no, necro heals are OP, l2p scrub

Reading this ZoS will clearly do nothing (if they ever read this, lol) and this is understandable. Your PTS feedback which you guys always refer to honestly looked exactly the same. As a person, who doesn't want to download and install PTS, but frequently reads PTS forum section, I couldn't clearly understand if necro is very good or very bad before it went live. And no, I'm not stupid or something, just 90% of feedback is not very constructive.

Honestly guys you both are right. Necro survivability tools are great (strong burst heal, very strong HoT, colossus ult, purge). I have already received several hate whispers yesterday after BG matches, saying "wait for nerf scrub", "getting carried by OP class". Of course their authors are potatoes, but they will respawn right here on forums and start creating "nerf necro" threads very soon. Personally I think that necro defensive toolkit is fine, especially taking into an account that necro offensive tools are bad, mostly because blastbones are unreliable against competent players.

We need to create a constructive thread "blastbones need a rework", and discuss there possible fixes of the skill. We need to invite class reps to this thread, and tag ZoS frequently. We need to create similar thread in non-PvP section, cause it is much more popular, and blastbones are also a headache even for PvE players. Personally idk what fixes should be applied to the skill, in order not to overbuff the class.

Ixilith

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Neloth wrote: »

Unpopular opinion, but I really enjoyed playing magcro in low MMR BGs. Yes, some nerds for sure will come here and say "go fight me and my premade, and see that you magcro is trash". Maybe, we'll see, however the ability of the class to easily smash potatoes is very important, imho; that's one of the reasons why magsorcs and stamblades are so popular in open world, let's not forget about that.

You don't need a premade to counter an offensively oriented Necromancer - it's just flat out worse than virtually everything else in that capacity right now. Also, Mag Sorc and Stamblade are both popular for solo open world Cyrodiil because they have mobility (and stealth in the case of Stamblade), which is something that Magicka Necromancer distinctly lacks. Mist Form and Race Against Time are the only options for Necromancers, and neither can really compare to Streak for open world fights.

I don't personally care about "potato mashing" at all, since I can do that on any class; getting into a low MMR BG can make one feel like a god, but it's by no means an accurate measuring stick for class balance.

Neloth wrote: »

2) magcro has a very good hard CC, and this CC is shock clench. Since 90% of magcro dmg is aoe based (except spammable, but even stupid skeleton mage(!)), you can safely use shock staff, which buffs all your dmg and gives you much better CC than usual flame reach. Try doing this on magsorc or magblade - and you will lose 8% dmg on all your main skills.

The Skeletal Arcanist is worse than the baseline, un-morphed skill for PvP...not that either one of them is actually worthwhile. The Arcanist morph causes the attack to become a 4 meter AOE, which mainly just serves to make it do even worse damage against Stam builds (thanks to widespread Major Evasion), and virtually nothing to enemy pets (which it will choose to target if they're closer than an enemy player).

VirtualElizabeth wrote: »

_Salty_ wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

The class is a complete reskin of warden and its design is even more of a failure than warden was.

This ^^^^^ times a thousand

How is Warden a Failure? It's a support class - Magicka wise. Classes like this are needed in small group pvp. Not all players desire to be the epic PVP god with all the kills.

And not everyone wants to play exclusively healer or support specs. Having a class that's only good for being a healer would seem like design failure, especially when that particular class is a Necromancer. In what game, or other setting, is a magic wielding Necromancer primarily someone who keeps their allies alive? (and I don't mean via reanimation))

Wardens have more then support going for them though?

Stam and magicka are both strong pvp wise,

Stam is still top choice in dps. Was the highest dps during wrathstone.

And while magicka does lower dps the difference in dps between top and bottom isn’t huge.

While I agree it’d be nice to see Magicka Warden get a little love in pve, the class is very capable dps wise

And as far as I’m aware the warden came out the gate extremely overpowered. It wasn’t a design failure lol. Zenimax nerfed the class without testing and it’d shredded the class

Necromancer is the opposite, it seems some of their abilities don’t work as intended and some skills aren’t doing what the tooltips say they should.

NinchiTV

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Class is incredible. This is a learn to play issue.

I had some people try to argue similar things on the PTS forums, but with one singular exception (which was mentioning the broken Stamina/Health build that could achieve a ~30k damage tooltip on the Goliath's AOE/Cone bash), no one ever provided any substance. They just assured me, and others, that we were all bad and didn't know what we were doing, and that the class was actually amazing. But without some sort of evidence, I'm just going to continue to dismiss those claims out of hand (unless you're talking about in a healer or support role).

Show us some video(s) of you on a Magicka Necromancer, taking down some not-bad players. It can be duels, 1vX or small group fights in Cyrodiil, or Battlegrounds - it doesn't matter, as long as we can see the Necromancer doing well against decent opposition (ie, not 4-man tryharding in BGs against teams of randoms that aren't even full). I found one video online right after early access started, where a guy on a Magicka Necromancer went something like 17-2-12 in a BG, and most people in the comments seemed to think this was demonstrative of the class' prowess. Problem is, he had barely 400k damage at the end of the match; against decent players you won't get anywhere near 17-2-12 if you're doing so little damage.

If you don't have any video clips, and don't want to record any, at least tell us what gear and skill setup you're using, along with some advice on how to make the class "incredible." I'm open to the possibility that I've missed something, but I'm really, really skeptical on that front.

I have a feeling people arent showing their success because they dont want their builds to get nerfed or copied, which from a point a few I can understand. I have some builds in the works I cannot wait to try when i get it on the 4th.

Iskiab

Bumi Rockafella wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Class is incredible. This is a learn to play issue.

I had some people try to argue similar things on the PTS forums, but with one singular exception (which was mentioning the broken Stamina/Health build that could achieve a ~30k damage tooltip on the Goliath's AOE/Cone bash), no one ever provided any substance. They just assured me, and others, that we were all bad and didn't know what we were doing, and that the class was actually amazing. But without some sort of evidence, I'm just going to continue to dismiss those claims out of hand (unless you're talking about in a healer or support role).

Show us some video(s) of you on a Magicka Necromancer, taking down some not-bad players. It can be duels, 1vX or small group fights in Cyrodiil, or Battlegrounds - it doesn't matter, as long as we can see the Necromancer doing well against decent opposition (ie, not 4-man tryharding in BGs against teams of randoms that aren't even full). I found one video online right after early access started, where a guy on a Magicka Necromancer went something like 17-2-12 in a BG, and most people in the comments seemed to think this was demonstrative of the class' prowess. Problem is, he had barely 400k damage at the end of the match; against decent players you won't get anywhere near 17-2-12 if you're doing so little damage.

If you don't have any video clips, and don't want to record any, at least tell us what gear and skill setup you're using, along with some advice on how to make the class "incredible." I'm open to the possibility that I've missed something, but I'm really, really skeptical on that front.

I have a feeling people arent showing their success because they dont want their builds to get nerfed or copied, which from a point a few I can understand. I have some builds in the works I cannot wait to try when i get it on the 4th.

This is exactly what’s happening. If you look at the time stamp of most of the complaints it’s from when people first hit 50. Then with more practice they either like it or shelve it, because they expected to know the class in pvp from grinding dolmens...

Worse are the people who copy/paste generic stam and mag specs and then complain the class has more depth.

I remember saying this in PTS, most feedback needs to be ignored for the first month unless it’s about the functionality of abilities. Right now there are only two issues I see with Necro: 1. Blastbones pathing, 2. Goliath Bash ultimate needs to be tuned down.

So far I love it. Necro’s just as versatile as magblade, and it’s been designed to be best played outside a cookie cutter spec.

Waffennacht

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Iskiab wrote: »

Bumi Rockafella wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Class is incredible. This is a learn to play issue.

I had some people try to argue similar things on the PTS forums, but with one singular exception (which was mentioning the broken Stamina/Health build that could achieve a ~30k damage tooltip on the Goliath's AOE/Cone bash), no one ever provided any substance. They just assured me, and others, that we were all bad and didn't know what we were doing, and that the class was actually amazing. But without some sort of evidence, I'm just going to continue to dismiss those claims out of hand (unless you're talking about in a healer or support role).

Show us some video(s) of you on a Magicka Necromancer, taking down some not-bad players. It can be duels, 1vX or small group fights in Cyrodiil, or Battlegrounds - it doesn't matter, as long as we can see the Necromancer doing well against decent opposition (ie, not 4-man tryharding in BGs against teams of randoms that aren't even full). I found one video online right after early access started, where a guy on a Magicka Necromancer went something like 17-2-12 in a BG, and most people in the comments seemed to think this was demonstrative of the class' prowess. Problem is, he had barely 400k damage at the end of the match; against decent players you won't get anywhere near 17-2-12 if you're doing so little damage.

If you don't have any video clips, and don't want to record any, at least tell us what gear and skill setup you're using, along with some advice on how to make the class "incredible." I'm open to the possibility that I've missed something, but I'm really, really skeptical on that front.

I have a feeling people arent showing their success because they dont want their builds to get nerfed or copied, which from a point a few I can understand. I have some builds in the works I cannot wait to try when i get it on the 4th.

This is exactly what’s happening. If you look at the time stamp of most of the complaints it’s from when people first hit 50. Then with more practice they either like it or shelve it, because they expected to know the class in pvp from grinding dolmens...

Worse are the people who copy/paste generic stam and mag specs and then complain the class has more depth.

I remember saying this in PTS, most feedback needs to be ignored for the first month unless it’s about the functionality of abilities. Right now there are only two issues I see with Necro: 1. Blastbones pathing, 2. Goliath Bash ultimate needs to be tuned down.

So far I love it. Necro’s just as versatile as magblade, and it’s been designed to be best played outside a cookie cutter spec.

The thing is I can see where Stam Necro has a lot of tools to work well in BGs.

Having access to defile, a way to pull range members out of position, execute, dots, heals, very potent ults

The issue with magicka is I see a ton of garbage damage (as in inflated BG damage with little kills due to AoEs and pets)

I'm betting your typical mag necro will go like 5-3 23 in a BG - sure you'll apply pressure and heals but the DKs and Sorcs are really gonna take all your kills - if you get paired with such players.

I'd much rather bring a tank AF group breaker Stam necro over a mag necro to a BG

Now I want to run mag necro because I think it sounds cool AF; but not because it's the superior choice

wheem_ESO

Bumi Rockafella wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Class is incredible. This is a learn to play issue.

I had some people try to argue similar things on the PTS forums, but with one singular exception (which was mentioning the broken Stamina/Health build that could achieve a ~30k damage tooltip on the Goliath's AOE/Cone bash), no one ever provided any substance. They just assured me, and others, that we were all bad and didn't know what we were doing, and that the class was actually amazing. But without some sort of evidence, I'm just going to continue to dismiss those claims out of hand (unless you're talking about in a healer or support role).

Show us some video(s) of you on a Magicka Necromancer, taking down some not-bad players. It can be duels, 1vX or small group fights in Cyrodiil, or Battlegrounds - it doesn't matter, as long as we can see the Necromancer doing well against decent opposition (ie, not 4-man tryharding in BGs against teams of randoms that aren't even full). I found one video online right after early access started, where a guy on a Magicka Necromancer went something like 17-2-12 in a BG, and most people in the comments seemed to think this was demonstrative of the class' prowess. Problem is, he had barely 400k damage at the end of the match; against decent players you won't get anywhere near 17-2-12 if you're doing so little damage.

If you don't have any video clips, and don't want to record any, at least tell us what gear and skill setup you're using, along with some advice on how to make the class "incredible." I'm open to the possibility that I've missed something, but I'm really, really skeptical on that front.

I have a feeling people arent showing their success because they dont want their builds to get nerfed or copied, which from a point a few I can understand. I have some builds in the works I cannot wait to try when i get it on the 4th.

As I've said before, that's certainly possible - but I'm highly skeptical. There just aren't very many tools available for Magicka Necromancers to use offensively, and many of them are redundant (ie, Ricochet Skull, Force Pulse, Elemental weapon, and Destructive Clench/Reach + Master Staff are all just replacements for one another, and not things that you would be utilizing together). So if someone actually does have some kind of super-secret Magicka Necromancer build that has good offense, I'd suspect that it's either super-niche, and/or abusing bugs.

I played quite a few Battlegrounds this morning, and my already existing views were further reinforced; offense is horrible, while healing is potentially quite strong. Since these were low MMR games, I was frequently able to get in the teens for killing blows, and for the most part didn't die very often. My total damage done at the end of matches was quite telling, though, never actually reaching even 500k (I could easily have doubled or tripled the damage on other characters that I've played recently - Magicka Warden or Magicka Templar).

The Blastbones is simply not reliable enough, and if ZOS doesn't do something about it I don't think Magicka Necromancer will ever be worthwhile for an offensive spec when facing off against decent players.

PS
I always assumed that the Blastbones was considered a pet while it was active, but is that not the case? It sure looked like mine got 1-shotted by a Dawnbreaker in one match, and pet "protection" against AOE damage shouldn't have allowed that.

Maulkin

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I played quite a few Battlegrounds this morning, and my already existing views were further reinforced; offense is horrible, while healing is potentially quite strong. Since these were low MMR games, I was frequently able to get in the teens for killing blows, and for the most part didn't die very often. My total damage done at the end of matches was quite telling, though, never actually reaching even 500k (I could easily have doubled or tripled the damage on other characters that I've played recently - Magicka Warden or Magicka Templar).

I'm about 20 BGs deep into my Mag Necro and I wanted to confirm your findings. Survivability very good but the damage simply isn't there. Most I managed to record is 600k in fights I'd be normally pumping out 1.5m damage with my MagDK and MagWarden (my highest damagers).

And I know some will say I don't know the class well enough yet, it's a l2p issue etc, but I've been PvPing since 2014 and I have 12 different PvP chars with every single class/resource spec there is and I can tell you this; No amount of experience will make this class put out damage numbers like the others do without significant changes to the class first. I didn't have any problems hitting over 1m dmg on my MagWarden two days after I leveled him on Morrowind launch.

Core offensive issues:

- Blastbones is beyond horrible. Replacing it with Blockade ups your damage by 200-300k immediately. It fails often, dies a lot, total travel time is ridiculously high, it's AoE range is tiny. It will most commonly take 6-7 seconds from cast time till damage is registered if it even happens.

- Skeletal Arcanist is only useful for duel-style, single-opponent fights. Why? Because you can only have one active at a time to deal damage to a single opponent. It's not a "sticky" DoT that stays with the target and that can be applied to multiple targets simultaneously like with Rending Slashes, Burning Embers, Cripple, Poison Injection etc. You can't pressure more than one enemy.

Necro has no reliable AoE dot. His single target DoT only works on 1 target at a time, unless the opponents are bunched up very closely. His burst damage skill is extremely unreliable and that's being kind to ZOS. The only decent and reliable offensive skill it has is a spammable that is no better than Force Pulse, Elemental Weapon or Masterreach.

My observation is that this class was built in front of a DPS parse dummy (i.e. with PvE single target DPS in mind) and little consideration for how it plays in PvP. Because the horriblenes of its offensive skills do not manifest in a dummy parse. Beyond its ultimates, one of which (Goliath) is probably bugged and will get nerfed, it has the worst offensive kit out of all ESO class/build combinations by a long way.

I wanted to love it, but I'm so disappointed and underwhelmed by it that I'll probably park the class indefinitely until it's sorted out.

HalvarIronfist

I tried a magcro.. still working on it. Seemed... meh?

Tried a stamcro tank/dd

Wow... it takes 4 people to but a dent in. Ranged/magic users are screwed just about immediately. (That free pull right into dizzy swing/executes) the tanky-ult is... meh? I could make a cheese bash build.. but..the colossus ult nearly kills 90% of my targets anyway.

Makes the magcro spammers so fun to deal with too, slotting absorb spell on s/b, free heals for days. Lol

DokThor90

Maulkin wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I played quite a few Battlegrounds this morning, and my already existing views were further reinforced; offense is horrible, while healing is potentially quite strong. Since these were low MMR games, I was frequently able to get in the teens for killing blows, and for the most part didn't die very often. My total damage done at the end of matches was quite telling, though, never actually reaching even 500k (I could easily have doubled or tripled the damage on other characters that I've played recently - Magicka Warden or Magicka Templar).

I'm about 20 BGs deep into my Mag Necro and I wanted to confirm your findings. Survivability very good but the damage simply isn't there. Most I managed to record is 600k in fights I'd be normally pumping out 1.5m damage with my MagDK and MagWarden (my highest damagers).

And I know some will say I don't know the class well enough yet, it's a l2p issue etc, but I've been PvPing since 2014 and I have 12 different PvP chars with every single class/resource spec there is and I can tell you this; No amount of experience will make this class put out damage numbers like the others do without significant changes to the class first. I didn't have any problems hitting over 1m dmg on my MagWarden two days after I leveled him on Morrowind launch.

Core offensive issues:

- Blastbones is beyond horrible. Replacing it with Blockade ups your damage by 200-300k immediately. It fails often, dies a lot, total travel time is ridiculously high, it's AoE range is tiny. It will most commonly take 6-7 seconds from cast time till damage is registered if it even happens.

- Skeletal Arcanist is only useful for duel-style, single-opponent fights. Why? Because you can only have one active at a time to deal damage to a single opponent. It's not a "sticky" DoT that stays with the target and that can be applied to multiple targets simultaneously like with Rending Slashes, Burning Embers, Cripple, Poison Injection etc. You can't pressure more than one enemy.

Necro has no reliable AoE dot. His single target DoT only works on 1 target at a time, unless the opponents are bunched up very closely. His burst damage skill is extremely unreliable and that's being kind to ZOS. The only decent and reliable offensive skill it has is a spammable that is no better than Force Pulse, Elemental Weapon or Masterreach.

My observation is that this class was built in front of a DPS parse dummy (i.e. with PvE single target DPS in mind) and little consideration for how it plays in PvP. Because the horriblenes of its offensive skills do not manifest in a dummy parse. Beyond its ultimates, one of which (Goliath) is probably bugged and will get nerfed, it has the worst offensive kit out of all ESO class/build combinations by a long way.

I wanted to love it, but I'm so disappointed and underwhelmed by it that I'll probably park the class indefinitely until it's sorted out.

Does skeleton arcanist count as a dot and is benefeting from the 10% more dot dmg passive?

Mintaka5

Honestly? My gawd they should just rename it to Stamiidil

wheem_ESO

DokThor90 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I played quite a few Battlegrounds this morning, and my already existing views were further reinforced; offense is horrible, while healing is potentially quite strong. Since these were low MMR games, I was frequently able to get in the teens for killing blows, and for the most part didn't die very often. My total damage done at the end of matches was quite telling, though, never actually reaching even 500k (I could easily have doubled or tripled the damage on other characters that I've played recently - Magicka Warden or Magicka Templar).

I'm about 20 BGs deep into my Mag Necro and I wanted to confirm your findings. Survivability very good but the damage simply isn't there. Most I managed to record is 600k in fights I'd be normally pumping out 1.5m damage with my MagDK and MagWarden (my highest damagers).

And I know some will say I don't know the class well enough yet, it's a l2p issue etc, but I've been PvPing since 2014 and I have 12 different PvP chars with every single class/resource spec there is and I can tell you this; No amount of experience will make this class put out damage numbers like the others do without significant changes to the class first. I didn't have any problems hitting over 1m dmg on my MagWarden two days after I leveled him on Morrowind launch.

Core offensive issues:

- Blastbones is beyond horrible. Replacing it with Blockade ups your damage by 200-300k immediately. It fails often, dies a lot, total travel time is ridiculously high, it's AoE range is tiny. It will most commonly take 6-7 seconds from cast time till damage is registered if it even happens.

- Skeletal Arcanist is only useful for duel-style, single-opponent fights. Why? Because you can only have one active at a time to deal damage to a single opponent. It's not a "sticky" DoT that stays with the target and that can be applied to multiple targets simultaneously like with Rending Slashes, Burning Embers, Cripple, Poison Injection etc. You can't pressure more than one enemy.

Necro has no reliable AoE dot. His single target DoT only works on 1 target at a time, unless the opponents are bunched up very closely. His burst damage skill is extremely unreliable and that's being kind to ZOS. The only decent and reliable offensive skill it has is a spammable that is no better than Force Pulse, Elemental Weapon or Masterreach.

My observation is that this class was built in front of a DPS parse dummy (i.e. with PvE single target DPS in mind) and little consideration for how it plays in PvP. Because the horriblenes of its offensive skills do not manifest in a dummy parse. Beyond its ultimates, one of which (Goliath) is probably bugged and will get nerfed, it has the worst offensive kit out of all ESO class/build combinations by a long way.

I wanted to love it, but I'm so disappointed and underwhelmed by it that I'll probably park the class indefinitely until it's sorted out.

Does skeleton arcanist count as a dot and is benefeting from the 10% more dot dmg passive?

No, it just functions kinda-sorta like a DOT, and a really horrible DOT at that, for several reasons:

1) You can't choose its target, it'll simply attack whatever is closest to you (which includes targeting pets instead of players, if the pet is closer).

2) The damage is atrocious. Mine was doing < 700 damage every 2 seconds in a CP-enabled duel against a Mag Sorc friend with only 13.7k Spell Resistance. Heavy Weapons and Twin Blade and Blunt procs will do ~1,400 every 2 seconds on the low end, and I've seen them get up around 2k before. Why spend the bar slot and resources on something that's less than half the damage of a proc? There are better ways to get your passives activated, and you shouldn't really need the extra corpse every 8-16 seconds, not with how the abilities all work out now.

3) The Magicka morph is worse than the baseline skill for PvP, so you're spending a skill point to downgrade an already worthless ability. All the Arcanist morph does is turn the attack into a 4 meter AOE, which serves no purpose besides making it do almost no damage to enemy pets, and 25% less damage to most Stamina builds (thanks to widespread Major Evasion reducing their incoming AOE damage).

4) Unlike a "real" DOT, it won't go through line of sight. You can't keep damage rolling on someone that's trying to escape or get breathing room if they LOS you, and Magicka Necromancer doesn't really have the mobility to keep up with most opponents.

I'm still confused as to why ZOS cut the pet's already terrible damage roughly in half since the last PTS patch, unless that's a bug.

Iskiab

HalvarIronfist wrote: »

I tried a magcro.. still working on it. Seemed... meh?

Tried a stamcro tank/dd

Wow... it takes 4 people to but a dent in. Ranged/magic users are screwed just about immediately. (That free pull right into dizzy swing/executes) the tanky-ult is... meh? I could make a cheese bash build.. but..the colossus ult nearly kills 90% of my targets anyway.

Makes the magcro spammers so fun to deal with too, slotting absorb spell on s/b, free heals for days. Lol

This at 50?

HalvarIronfist

Iskiab wrote: »

HalvarIronfist wrote: »

I tried a magcro.. still working on it. Seemed... meh?

Tried a stamcro tank/dd

Wow... it takes 4 people to but a dent in. Ranged/magic users are screwed just about immediately. (That free pull right into dizzy swing/executes) the tanky-ult is... meh? I could make a cheese bash build.. but..the colossus ult nearly kills 90% of my targets anyway.

Makes the magcro spammers so fun to deal with too, slotting absorb spell on s/b, free heals for days. Lol

This at 50?

Mostly under 50 tests thus far. Though, I've started testing it in over 50s. Still takes a lot of pressure to hurt. Tanks stamina hits pretty well, and magic-based attacks are pretty much absorbed. At this point, I was using crafted sets. Now, I'm building a bit differently to see if it still holds up.

I should mention, though. My stamnecros performance is absolutely phenominal compared to my magcro, for reference my hybrid-build is

Nord Stamcro s/b 2h
(MEDIUM)
5pc Fortifed Brass,
5pc hundings,
2pc Vampires kiss

Hits 30-33k resists easily, and over 2k crit resist base just by impen armor/shield.

Frontbar S/B is just heroic slash/ tanky ability + vigor

Backbar 2h is dmg, and still hitting 3k weapon dmg in under 50s, which is more than enough to kill most players.

(Sidenote, cheese a stamsorc ww with clever alc and hundings. 5k+ easily attainable in under 50, let the rage ensue)

Maulkin

wheem_ESO wrote: »

DokThor90 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I played quite a few Battlegrounds this morning, and my already existing views were further reinforced; offense is horrible, while healing is potentially quite strong. Since these were low MMR games, I was frequently able to get in the teens for killing blows, and for the most part didn't die very often. My total damage done at the end of matches was quite telling, though, never actually reaching even 500k (I could easily have doubled or tripled the damage on other characters that I've played recently - Magicka Warden or Magicka Templar).

I'm about 20 BGs deep into my Mag Necro and I wanted to confirm your findings. Survivability very good but the damage simply isn't there. Most I managed to record is 600k in fights I'd be normally pumping out 1.5m damage with my MagDK and MagWarden (my highest damagers).

And I know some will say I don't know the class well enough yet, it's a l2p issue etc, but I've been PvPing since 2014 and I have 12 different PvP chars with every single class/resource spec there is and I can tell you this; No amount of experience will make this class put out damage numbers like the others do without significant changes to the class first. I didn't have any problems hitting over 1m dmg on my MagWarden two days after I leveled him on Morrowind launch.

Core offensive issues:

- Blastbones is beyond horrible. Replacing it with Blockade ups your damage by 200-300k immediately. It fails often, dies a lot, total travel time is ridiculously high, it's AoE range is tiny. It will most commonly take 6-7 seconds from cast time till damage is registered if it even happens.

- Skeletal Arcanist is only useful for duel-style, single-opponent fights. Why? Because you can only have one active at a time to deal damage to a single opponent. It's not a "sticky" DoT that stays with the target and that can be applied to multiple targets simultaneously like with Rending Slashes, Burning Embers, Cripple, Poison Injection etc. You can't pressure more than one enemy.

Necro has no reliable AoE dot. His single target DoT only works on 1 target at a time, unless the opponents are bunched up very closely. His burst damage skill is extremely unreliable and that's being kind to ZOS. The only decent and reliable offensive skill it has is a spammable that is no better than Force Pulse, Elemental Weapon or Masterreach.

My observation is that this class was built in front of a DPS parse dummy (i.e. with PvE single target DPS in mind) and little consideration for how it plays in PvP. Because the horriblenes of its offensive skills do not manifest in a dummy parse. Beyond its ultimates, one of which (Goliath) is probably bugged and will get nerfed, it has the worst offensive kit out of all ESO class/build combinations by a long way.

I wanted to love it, but I'm so disappointed and underwhelmed by it that I'll probably park the class indefinitely until it's sorted out.

Does skeleton arcanist count as a dot and is benefeting from the 10% more dot dmg passive?

No, it just functions kinda-sorta like a DOT, and a really horrible DOT at that, for several reasons:

1) You can't choose its target, it'll simply attack whatever is closest to you (which includes targeting pets instead of players, if the pet is closer).

2) The damage is atrocious. Mine was doing < 700 damage every 2 seconds in a CP-enabled duel against a Mag Sorc friend with only 13.7k Spell Resistance. Heavy Weapons and Twin Blade and Blunt procs will do ~1,400 every 2 seconds on the low end, and I've seen them get up around 2k before. Why spend the bar slot and resources on something that's less than half the damage of a proc? There are better ways to get your passives activated, and you shouldn't really need the extra corpse every 8-16 seconds, not with how the abilities all work out now.

3) The Magicka morph is worse than the baseline skill for PvP, so you're spending a skill point to downgrade an already worthless ability. All the Arcanist morph does is turn the attack into a 4 meter AOE, which serves no purpose besides making it do almost no damage to enemy pets, and 25% less damage to most Stamina builds (thanks to widespread Major Evasion reducing their incoming AOE damage).

4) Unlike a "real" DOT, it won't go through line of sight. You can't keep damage rolling on someone that's trying to escape or get breathing room if they LOS you, and Magicka Necromancer doesn't really have the mobility to keep up with most opponents.

I'm still confused as to why ZOS cut the pet's already terrible damage roughly in half since the last PTS patch, unless that's a bug.

What he said. ^

Point 1) in particular is atrocious. You can at least command Sorc or Warden pets to attack whoever you want. None of that with Necro. It will attack the tank with full 40k HP sitting in front of you, instead of the guy with 10% HP sitting 10 meters away and there's nothing you can do about it.

And point 4) applies to the HoTs as well. Both Spirit Mender and Tether. You can LOS your own heals if you're running around a tree for example. Imagine LOSing your own heals, Vigor or Rapid Regen. And Spirit Mender is slow af. From the moment you activate it, it takes 2 secs for the first heal to tick. It's a "hot" you can't use reactively to incoming dmg, you have to have had it up already.

The class has 0 "sticky" damage or heals. Like you know how a Sorc will put a Curse on you and it explodes wherever you are unless you purge it? Or Burning Embers or Vampires Bane or Bleeds will keep ticking on you until they run out? None of that with Necro. As soon as someone breaks LOS from you, everything stops. You can't aim any skills at them and your pet which is your only class "DoT" stops doing damage.

The more I play the class the more shocked I am at the massive flaws at the design of this class.

wheem_ESO

Maulkin wrote: »

And point 4) applies to the HoTs as well. Both Spirit Mender and Tether. You can LOS your own heals if you're running around a tree for example. Imagine LOSing your own heals, Vigor or Rapid Regen. And Spirit Mender is slow af. From the moment you activate it, it takes 2 secs for the first heal to tick. It's a "hot" you can't use reactively to incoming dmg, you have to have had it up already.

Yea, I actually managed to LOS my own Intensive Mender for the entire 8 second duration in a Deepening Drome BG this morning. My health stayed at ~86% (thanks to being Stage 4 Vampire) the entire time I was running from/LOSing an enemy team, and I wasn't in Mist Form either.

I'm also lowering my opinion of the Tether heal the more I play with it. In theory, it's a decent HOT (though impossible to reliably use on teammates) and also provides some Stamina regen - something which is always welcome on a Magicka PvP build. But between the janky targeting, frequently being forced to LOS the tether, and having it break the instant a targeted player's corpse respawns is really limiting the usefulness.

DokThor90

Los Your own heals? Lol, I didnt even recognized, but since I play outnumbered most of the time, I usually run around trees/tower etc... Maybe I should use the 10% reduction moroh

wheem_ESO

Just discovered a new bug with the Intensive Mender - sometimes it will only cast 1 or 2 heals over its full duration, instead of the 4 that it's supposed to. The first time it happened I had just escaped an enemy team and had less than half health remaining; 3 full duration menders (24 seconds in total) got me a grand total of 4 heal casts from the pet (should have been 12), even though I wasn't moving and no one else was nearby. Once I saw it happen the first time, I tried to keep an eye on it and saw multiple other instances of the same issue across a few different battlegrounds.

And just to beat the dead horse some more - Blastbones, especially when used by a Magicka build, has to be the worst burst damage ability in the game right now. I just cast mine at a Chaosball carrier that was running away from me with no speed boosts of any kind on his character. The end result? It eventually went around a corner trying to follow him, then teleported back to me for reasons that I can't begin to understand, and immediately fell over dead without ever exploding.

Maulkin

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I'm also lowering my opinion of the Tether heal the more I play with it. In theory, it's a decent HOT (though impossible to reliably use on teammates) and also provides some Stamina regen - something which is always welcome on a Magicka PvP build. But between the janky targeting, frequently being forced to LOS the tether, and having it break the instant a targeted player's corpse respawns is really limiting the usefulness.

Whoever designed Tether should probably think of another career. Game design is just not for him/her.

Currently Tether requires:
- An available corpse
- You to be facing the corpse or the button is greyed out
- You to remain within LOS of the corpse to get any heals (tether breaks when LOS with the corpse breaks)
- Your teammates to somehow position themselves between the corpse and the Tethered Necro to get any heals(!)

Is there anything more conditional in the whole effing game??? Who thought this was a good idea and who signed off on this?

Rapid Regen is more reliable and flat out better self heals with half the cost as well. I average 40k heals with Tether in BGs while Rapid Regen averages 200-250k for me. No corpses required, no LOS issues, and "sticky" heals that last the full 16" after you placed them on yourself or an ally with no movement or position restrictions.

Just compare the two, consider the limitations of Tether and tell me how any of this makes any sense.



if I want an AoE heal for stacked teammates why would I not use Healing Springs? No corpses, no positioning, can stack up to 4 on top of each other…. just better oveall. Tether tries to be 2 skills in one and it's crap at both.

Here's how you fix Tether:
Make it not a tether. Make it so it doesn't require you to face a corpse, but need to be within 18m of a corpse to use (like Render Flesh). When you consume the corpse's life it creates a "sticky" HoT on you. No LOS, no bullcrap. Also a strong, 5"-6" duration, 8m range, AoE heal springs around the consumed corpse for teammates to stand in. Should be longer duration than Healing Springs given you can't target where it springs up and you can't "stack" more than one of it.

Iskiab

My only issue with tether in pvp is the facing issue and magicka cost. You need to be facing the corpse to activate it which is problematic. If I’ve already gone trough the trouble of making sure there’s an available corpse it’s too much of a pain to also need to find it to activate the ability.

Main draw of the ability is the stamina return (always hard to fit as a healer), the healing amount is secondary imo.

Maulkin

Iskiab wrote: »

My only issue with tether in pvp is the facing issue and magicka cost. You need to be facing the corpse to activate it which is problematic. If I’ve already gone trough the trouble of making sure there’s an available corpse it’s too much of a pain to also need to find it to activate the ability.

Main draw of the ability is the stamina return (always hard to fit as a healer), the healing amount is secondary imo.

You also need to be in LOS of the corpse after you activate it. If you activate and then go break LOS you get nothing and you just wasted magicka.

Joy_Division

Maulkin wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

I'm also lowering my opinion of the Tether heal the more I play with it. In theory, it's a decent HOT (though impossible to reliably use on teammates) and also provides some Stamina regen - something which is always welcome on a Magicka PvP build. But between the janky targeting, frequently being forced to LOS the tether, and having it break the instant a targeted player's corpse respawns is really limiting the usefulness.

Whoever designed Tether should probably think of another career. Game design is just not for him/her.

Currently Tether requires:
- An available corpse
- You to be facing the corpse or the button is greyed out
- You to remain within LOS of the corpse to get any heals (heals break with LOS break)
- Your teammates to somehow position themselves between the corpse and the Tethered Necro to get any heals(!)

Is there anything more conditional in the whole effing game??? Who thought this was a good idea and who signed off on this?

Rapid Regen is more reliable and flat out better self heals with half the cost as well. I average 40k heals with Tether in BGs while Rapid Regen averages 200-250k for me. No corpses required, no LOS issues, and "sticky" heals that last the full 16" after you placed them on yourself or an ally with no movement or position restrictions.

Just compare the two, consider the limitations of Tether and tell me how any of this makes any sense.



if I want a stacked-AoE heal for teammates why would I not use Healing Springs? No corpses, no positioning, can stack many of it on top of each other…. just better. Tether tries to be 2 skills in one and it's crap at both.

Here's how you fix Tether:
Make it not a tether. Make it so it doesn't require you to face a corpse, but need to be within 18m of a corpse to use (like Render Flesh). When you consume the corpse's life it creates a "sticky" HoT on you. No LOS, no bullcrap. A strong, 5"-6" duration, 8m range, AoE heal also springs around the consumed corpse for teammates to stand in. Should be longer duration than Healing Springs given you can't target where it springs up and you can't "stack" more than one of it.

Unfortunately, at the moment ZOS thinks there are tons of places people are using tethers and corpse targeting takes some time to get used to, but once you do it feels a lot more controlled,

Maulkin

Joy_Division wrote: »

Unfortunately, at the moment ZOS thinks there are tons of places people are using tethers and corpse targeting takes some time to get used to, but once you do it feels a lot more controlled,

Unfortunately, at the moment ZOS doesn't know what they are talking about.

technohic

DokThor90 wrote: »

SacredEarth wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROGS9Amtkd0

Trash

Im not sure you have seen the guy in the video play to say that. Of course; looking at how he builds, I am quite certain that they will not work for 90% of the community and it leads me to believe players can make up for weaknesses in builds, while other builds can make up for weaknesses in players.