Protective Trait is Overtuned

Abhaya

Compared to a generic set bonus of 2975 physical OR spell resist, protective gives 1844 of both resists. Multiply this by 2 since it gives both puts the total value at 3688 total resist added which is 1.24 the value of a set bonus. This is taking into consideration that monster sets (as far as I can remember) are the only pieces that give both resists in a 1 set bonus and won’t be used in this comparison since they are unique. Compare this to robust which gives 870 stam when a stam 1 set bonus gives 1096 stamina putting the robust trait at 0.796 the value of a 1 set bonus. You can do the same with infused weapon damage giving about 88 weapon damage which is .68 the value of a 129 weapon damage set bonus.

Min/maxing in this game would be much less convoluted if there were any pattern to the numbers and I’m sure this example isn’t the only case. If you truly want to make the most of your stats you can’t even decide if you want to run a damage set with protective traits on jewelry or a defensive set with infused or robust traits because one option is just more stat dense than the other. #builddiversity

Edit: Got my math wrong on infused and it is closer to the value of protective at about 1.12 the value of a standard armor set bonus if you are in medium. While still slightly behind, it is definitely better off than my initial conclusion while robust is now the farthest behind.

John_Falstaff

I wouldn't say that "offers more set bonuses" strictly equals "overturned", because set bonuses themselves could use serious rework, they don't offer equally good boons. Tanks run full support sets without a single resistance bonus and still sit close to the cap.

Look at it like this - protective trait offers 2.8% extra mitigation, which on your typical 40k health tank would result in 1.12k effective extra health, not that different from a healthy piece, and less stat dense than triune trait. You still can theorycraft without tying things to set bonuses.

Lord_Eomer

Strange to find someone complaining being overtuned,

This trait is probably least used in game and need some kind of buff to be par with others.

tgrippa

ok

Qbiken

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Strange to find someone complaining being overtuned,

This trait is probably least used in game and need some kind of buff to be par with others.

Probably one of the most common PvP traits. Let's you run at or above resistance cap in both medium and light armor. Very handy trait

CatchMeTrolling

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Strange to find someone complaining being overtuned,

This trait is probably least used in game and need some kind of buff to be par with others.

One of the most used traits in pvp if not the most transmuted trait next to infused. A buff is the last thing it needs.

SaintSubwayy

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Strange to find someone complaining being overtuned,

This trait is probably least used in game and need some kind of buff to be par with others.

jeah protective aint used much...cause you can get enough resistances in other forms (set bonis, heavy armor, minor + major protection, unique resistances (raical, class and skill passives), unique mitigation (NB bow) and CP)

and even if they would buff the trait, in PVE tanks will still run support sets cause the shorter the fight is, the less risk of dying
and IF a tank dies, then its to mechanics or missing a dodge etc. you rarely see a tank die to just dots...mostly they die to very hard hits...so adding a bit of mitigation wont change that

MaxJrFTW

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Strange to find someone complaining being overtuned,

This trait is probably least used in game and need some kind of buff to be par with others.

Protective is the strongest trait in the game for pvp and possibly the most used, at least by people who understand its value.

SaintSubwayy

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Strange to find someone complaining being overtuned,

This trait is probably least used in game and need some kind of buff to be par with others.

Protective is the strongest trait in the game for pvp and possibly the most used, at least by people who understand its value.

jeah this topic is kinda separated between PVE (almost no use of protective) and PVP (more use of protective)

Elwendryll

When I make a build, I occasionally add one protective trait to reach the resistance cap. It's totally fine compared to other traits.

Apox

im fine with it. without 3 protective jewelry i have to run fortified brass on my mag toons for pvp if i wanna stay in light armor, and thats just not fun. magicka already has the short end of the stick when it comes to battlegrounds. virtually no stamina to run/block/dodge/break free, we have to actively sacrifice our primary dps stats to get stam or stam regen, where stam builds just get their utility resource by mking a normal build

most stam builds have virtually no punishment for excluding magicka/mag regen, but if a mag build doesnt have stam/stam regen, we get 1 break free and 1 dodge and we're cashed. aka 1 fossilize

John_Falstaff

Oh, so it's now yet another nerf thread coming from PvP people? Let me grab popcorn! ^^

Chilly-McFreeze

Apox wrote: »

most stam builds have virtually no punishment for excluding magicka/mag regen, but if a mag build doesnt have stam/stam regen, we get 1 break free and 1 dodge and we're cashed. aka 1 fossilize

That's the reason why Shacklebreaker and Vamp are popular even on stam builds?
And just to name a few: Cloak, Surge, Streak, Dark Deal, Shade, Fossilize, Wings. All cost mag. It's true that mag builds have to build more towards stam than stam builds have to build towards mag - but to say they have virtually no punishment is a bit overexaggerated.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Oh, so it's now yet another nerf thread coming from PvP people? Let me grab popcorn! ^^

Do you use it in PvE anyway or do you just want to tease?

Apox

Shacklebreaker may be popular for stam, but isnt a staple set. Unless you have some other form of stam/stam recovery, magicka builds are almost forced into shacklebreaker or amber plasm just to be able to react to other players. If you dont have either of these and arent using tristat food in bgs, mag builds have ~9000 stamina. So we sacrifice our dps stats to get more survivability whereas stam builds dps just keeps going up the more stam they have.

These magicka abilities you listed are also typically just used once or twice, or their cost isnt outrageous, and typically mag recovers by itself before it needs to be used again. I played stamsorc with streak, dark deal, and surge and i never once thought "damn i wish i had more magicka/mag recovery"

You know how many times i've been caught on my mag toons, not being able to dodge or break out of ccs? Infinitely more times than my stam toon because my stam toon has never not had resource to dodge/break free. I even regularly bash cancel my attacks, which not only pauses stam regen, but consumes stam.

John_Falstaff

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Apox wrote: »

most stam builds have virtually no punishment for excluding magicka/mag regen, but if a mag build doesnt have stam/stam regen, we get 1 break free and 1 dodge and we're cashed. aka 1 fossilize

That's the reason why Shacklebreaker and Vamp are popular even on stam builds?
And just to name a few: Cloak, Surge, Streak, Dark Deal, Shade, Fossilize, Wings. All cost mag. It's true that mag builds have to build more towards stam than stam builds have to build towards mag - but to say they have virtually no punishment is a bit overexaggerated.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Oh, so it's now yet another nerf thread coming from PvP people? Let me grab popcorn! ^^

Do you use it in PvE anyway or do you just want to tease?

I'm mostly pounding on that meme of course. ^^ But on more serious topic, I would not mind it getting useful in PvE. I tried, and it's not altogether useless (since I'm khajiit tank and when I run Ebon / Dragonguard / Shadowrend / Chokethorn, I sit good 3-4k below cap with Major Resolve / Ward active), it's just other traits eclipse this one. I don't fancy seeing trait that could be at least situationally useful (I won't mind both running Jailer in vBRP and sitting at the cap) nerfed even further because people enjoy being tanky in light armor while spamming Clench left and right. Caustic PvP meta trends affect the game way too much for my liking.

Uryel

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

jeah this topic is kinda separated between PVE (almost no use of protective) and PVP (more use of protective)

The whole game and userbase is divided between PvP and PvE, with very different use for everything. I wish the devs would understand that and stop tuning everything for PvP. Us PvE users, especially the non-trial ones, could use some actual division between PvP and PvE skills.

Liww

it's a good trait but quite frankly often not worth the trade-off other traits offer.

afaik this trait is ONLY used in pvp, so why even bring pve into the equation?

BattleAxe

If we are gonna talk about magicka having to build for some stam for pvp don’t forget to mention yes stam has a much higher pool to roll dodge block and such but comes at the cost of our damage resource. So that effectively balances out stamina and magicka. Not to forget magicka also gets damage shields and can effectively fight at range majority of times

Elwendryll

Liww wrote: »

it's a good trait but quite frankly often not worth the trade-off other traits offer.

afaik this trait is ONLY used in pvp, so why even bring pve into the equation?

I use it on some unusual tank builds to reach the resistance cap. But not more than one piece, healthy is more valuable.

Colecovision

I use protective in pve. I like to solo stuff that hits hard and it comes in handy. I almost never leave the realm of 5 medium pieces and 2 dps sets, but everything else is on the table to convert to survival for the right fight. I hope they don't take it from us.

Vapirko

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Strange to find someone complaining being overtuned,

This trait is probably least used in game and need some kind of buff to be par with others.

Protective is the strongest trait in the game for pvp and possibly the most used, at least by people who understand its value.

but it’s out of necessity. There’s just so much damage these days, and so much of it is in AoE form and indiscriminate that protective is almost required especially on medium and light builds and in no CP. rather than nerfing it, a better idea would be to limit its use to one or two jewelry pieces. Also we have no idea if it’s the most used trait or not. Infused, robust, arcane and healthy are probably equally used and triune may be close. Nerfing this trait, imo, is not at all a priority rn.

brandonv516

Some people won't be happy until we are back to using only Arcane, Healthy, and Robust.

Oh and Ornate too...

Merlight

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

a bit overexaggerated.

That's a bit overredundant.

sionIV

Person #1 runs a solo build, and uses the lady mundus stone (2752 resistance) for his/her build. On the epic jewelry, s/he has 3x robust (3x 840 stamina).

Person #1 has the following: 2752 resistance and 2520 stamina.

Person #2 also runs a solo build, but uses the tower mundus stone (2028 stamina) for his/her build. On the epic jewelry, s/he has 2x protective (2x 1784 resistance) and 1x robust (1x 840 stamina)

Person #2 has the following: 3568 resistance and 2868 stamina.

There is quite a difference, unless my math is wrong.

Merlight

@sionIV Person #1 is a freeloader. Person #2 paid to win. Working as intended.

lassitershawn

sionIV wrote: »

Person #1 runs a solo build, and uses the lord mundus stone (2752 resistance) for his/her build. On the epic jewelry, s/he has 3x robust (3x 840 stamina).

Person #1 has the following: 2752 resistance and 2520 stamina.

Person #2 also runs a solo build, but uses the tower mundus stone (2028 stamina) for his/her build. On the epic jewelry, s/he has 2x protective (2x 1784 resistance) and 1x robust (1x 840 stamina)

Person #2 has the following: 3568 resistance and 2868 stamina.

There is quite a difference, unless my math is wrong.

Lord mundus is HP, I think Lady is resist?

Emma_Overload

sionIV wrote: »

Person #1 runs a solo build, and uses the lord mundus stone (2752 resistance) for his/her build. On the epic jewelry, s/he has 3x robust (3x 840 stamina).

Person #1 has the following: 2752 resistance and 2520 stamina.

Person #2 also runs a solo build, but uses the tower mundus stone (2028 stamina) for his/her build. On the epic jewelry, s/he has 2x protective (2x 1784 resistance) and 1x robust (1x 840 stamina)

Person #2 has the following: 3568 resistance and 2868 stamina.

There is quite a difference, unless my math is wrong.

There's a lot stuff like that in the game, though. It's what makes theory-crafting fun... finding all the little efficiencies.

sionIV

lassitershawn wrote: »

sionIV wrote: »

Person #1 runs a solo build, and uses the lord mundus stone (2752 resistance) for his/her build. On the epic jewelry, s/he has 3x robust (3x 840 stamina).

Person #1 has the following: 2752 resistance and 2520 stamina.

Person #2 also runs a solo build, but uses the tower mundus stone (2028 stamina) for his/her build. On the epic jewelry, s/he has 2x protective (2x 1784 resistance) and 1x robust (1x 840 stamina)

Person #2 has the following: 3568 resistance and 2868 stamina.

There is quite a difference, unless my math is wrong.

Lord mundus is HP, I think Lady is resist?

You are correct, I changed it.

Thank you.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Emma_Overload wrote: »

sionIV wrote: »

Person #1 runs a solo build, and uses the lord mundus stone (2752 resistance) for his/her build. On the epic jewelry, s/he has 3x robust (3x 840 stamina).

Person #1 has the following: 2752 resistance and 2520 stamina.

Person #2 also runs a solo build, but uses the tower mundus stone (2028 stamina) for his/her build. On the epic jewelry, s/he has 2x protective (2x 1784 resistance) and 1x robust (1x 840 stamina)

Person #2 has the following: 3568 resistance and 2868 stamina.

There is quite a difference, unless my math is wrong.

There's a lot stuff like that in the game, though. It's what makes theory-crafting fun... finding all the little efficiencies.

This is true and at the end of the day, we are talking about only 1% difference in damage taken, actually less then that because of the way the game calculates damage mitigation and less then half a percentage of damage increase in most skills going from 2500 Stam to 2800 Stam. That is pretty balanced to me.

grannas211

brandonv516 wrote: »

Some people won't be happy until we are back to using only Arcane, Healthy, and Robust.

Oh and Ornate too...

can we bring back prosperous too?

Abhaya

When making this post I was pointing out the difference in value between the different traits using set bonuses as a baseline (assuming these are even balanced at all to begin with.) Contrary to what others have said, this isn’t a call to nerf but to point out an imbalance. Even with a 1.45 modifier on weapon damage from major/minor brutality, etc. the weapon damage provided from infused is still less than a single set bonus while protective is worth significantly more. Other traits could be brought up to this or it could be left alone. My main point is that you are literally gimping yourself (pvp) to build for resistance in armor sets before you do from jewelry traits (all else being equal) considering most other variables such as this are consistent across the board in their value relative to each other (mundus, food, set bonuses.)

Time to see if there is a viable medium damage set alternative to fortified brass with infused weapon damage glyphs that would run better with protective.