Rending Slashes' direct damage needs a damage increase to be in line with other DOTs.

Arcanasx

Lets compare some ability tooltips here. These are taken with approximately 4800 weapon damage, 32.8k stamina and with the Slimecraw set.

(And remember that the PTS rending slashes has its initial bleed damage tick delayed so you can no longer spam it and have those bleed ticks happening. The main reason why it is used in PVP now in live is because you can spam it and get those bleed ticks between each use. Its snare is also often made redundant especially in group situations (which is what the majority of PVP takes place) where AOE snares are a lot more effective, and its increased PTS DOT damage is countered by its increase of the PTS DOT duration. And these new AOE buffs will not stop these DOTS from being used as a potential spammable).






(I'm also on a DK so its important to take into account the 2m extra range on rending slashes and claw)

RS compared to Carve:

Carves direct damage portion does about 31% more damage than rending slashes direct damage.
Carve is a 7m AOE cone, rending is a single target 5m ability.
The difference in DOT damage is marginal. The carve DOT can also be applied to multiple targets at once unlike rending slashes. Carve DOT is also bleed damage!
Carve can be greatly boosted by the masters weapon; it has far more DPS potential than a masters dual wield rendings would ever have.
Rending slashes is cheaper...and it also gives a 4 second snare for a 10 second DOT, its only real positives compared to carve.

RS compared to Obnoxious Breath:

Noxious does about 34% more damage than rendings if you compare the direct damage portions.
Noxious is a 10m AOE cone, rending is a single target 5m ability.
Rendings DOT damage is about 20% more than Noxious, but the Noxious DOT can be applied to multiple targets at once. The Noxious dot is also poison; so while It can be mitigated, it is able to proc poison status effects which can increase the damage.
Noxious gives major fracture to all targets hit.
The snare from rendings is only a little better than the Ardent flame passive snare you can proc with noxious.
Noxious is cheaper with DK passives.

RS compared to Venomous Claw:

Rendings does 15% more damage than claw when you compare both the direct damage portions.
Claws tooltip DOT is about 9% more than rendings, but when you consider the fact that its damage increases with every tick, Claw begins to do noticeably more damage than rendings. It usually ends up being about being 30% more DOT damage after a full DOT duration (at least in my case).
Claw is less than half the costs of rendings after DK passives.
The snare from rendings is only a little better than the Ardent flame passive snare you can proc with claw.

My proposal is to increase the direct damage portion of rending slashes where the sum of both those direct hits is about the same as Carves direct damage. Rendings has not only taken a big hit due to the delayed initial bleed tick, but it also made noticeably weaker compared to other newly buffed abilities. This way If rendings were to do the same amount of direct damage as carve, the difference is that rendings would be cheaper and provide a snare, but carve is an AOE with greater range (except for DKS) that is able to effect multiple targets at once. It is important to take into account that the target may have major evasion which can reduce carves damage, but AOEs also cannot be dodged and they are useful for taking NBs out of stealth as well.

Noxious direct damage would be a little more, but it also gives major fracture and is a DOT with 10m cone range. Its DOT is a little weaker, but against multiple targets Noxious has greater damage potential than rendings.

Rendings would do about 50% more damage than claw when it comes to the direct damage portion, but claws DOT is also a good amount stronger, also procs a snare, can proc poison status effects, and is less than half the cost as well.

Edit: Grammar. And forgot to add the snare when comparing rendings to carve.

Wing

rending and carve or more comparable then the others, the others are poison not bleed, and thus are mitigated by resistances and whatever, bleeds are not.

and between those two it seems pretty fine.
rending is cheaper, and applies a snare.

I might be more critical if cone attacks in ESO didn't succ something fierce. also would you be willing to link your steel tornado tooltip?

duel wield usually rending's INTO steel tornado spam, so I would like that option compared

Arcanasx

Wing wrote: »

rending and carve or more comparable then the others, the others are poison not bleed, and thus are mitigated by resistances and whatever, bleeds are not.

and between those two it seems pretty fine.
rending is cheaper, and applies a snare.

I might be more critical if cone attacks in ESO didn't succ something fierce. also would you be willing to link your steel tornado tooltip?

duel wield usually rending's INTO steel tornado spam, so I would like that option compared

Poison damage can proc poison status effects so bleeds are not inherently superior. Whirlwind and its morphs actually have the same damage tooltip as cleave and its morphs as well.

Wing

maybe there even in PvE, but in PvP bleeds are far and away better.

however if that's the case with steel tornado I say its a tie

if your spaming carve its dot wont activate because with the dot changes the first dot wont tic for 2s, so if your spaming it for that upfront hit your not getting the dot, if you want the dot, your not spaming it (and its the only AoE 2H has, if you can call cones that)

rending is perfect for what it is, it applies a dot, and its cheap to apply, then you can go into steel tornado spam (or the other morph, whatever you prefer) you end up with the same (until execute range, then its better) damage, AND still get the bleed.

the lines seem fine, but I do agree (if we can agree) that aoe in general seems over tuned a but as they are all on par with single target as far as spam goes, that's pretty bad.

DisgracefulMind

When bleeds stop ignoring all resistances, sure.

mcagatayg

seems ok to me

Arcanasx

Wing wrote: »

maybe there even in PvE, but in PvP bleeds are far and away better.

however if that's the case with steel tornado I say its a tie

if your spaming carve its dot wont activate because with the dot changes the first dot wont tic for 2s, so if your spaming it for that upfront hit your not getting the dot, if you want the dot, your not spaming it (and its the only AoE 2H has, if you can call cones that)

rending is perfect for what it is, it applies a dot, and its cheap to apply, then you can go into steel tornado spam (or the other morph, whatever you prefer) you end up with the same (until execute range, then its better) damage, AND still get the bleed.

the lines seem fine, but I do agree (if we can agree) that aoe in general seems over tuned a but as they are all on par with single target as far as spam goes, that's pretty bad.

I wouldn't say bleeds are "far better" in pvp; my claw actually does more DOT damage than my rendings DOT in pvp, and that doesn't even include the poison status effect it may proc. Carve is going to be a much better ability to use for trash pulls in PVE than rendings will, at least make rendings the more efficient skill to use against single targets. As a DK, if I had to choose between using noxious or rendings, it becomes an easy choice which ability is going to be more useful in general.

My main point is that AOEs should not be doing more base damage than single target abilities. Single target abilities should at least do the same damage as its AOE counterparts, and the main difference is that you would use more resources for using AOE attacks that are undodgeable and may hit multiple targets at once.

Corpier

Is ignoring resistances and passive execute not enough?

Arcanasx

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

When bleeds stop ignoring all resistances, sure.

Carve also does bleed damage? Its also an AOE that does more damage than rendings. And we have to take into account PVE as well, where bleeds aren't as good.

Arcanasx

Corpier wrote: »

Is ignoring resistances and passive execute not enough?

Right, rendings will totally be used for its execute potential rather than whirling blades or even tornado, or any other proper execute. And I like the fact that you (and others) ignored that carve also does bleed damage (about the same as rendings) and its an AOE. It seems a lot of people are actually forgetting this. And the direct damage portion of rendings is not bleed damage.

Rikumaru

Um? I really don't think rending needs a buff considering it's the best DoT ability in PvP. Throw in master DW ontop and it's overpowered.

Arcanasx

Rikumaru wrote: »

Um? I really don't think rending needs a buff considering it's the best DoT ability in PvP. Throw in master DW ontop and it's overpowered.

Wait until people start using the masters two handed weapon in PvP when elsewyr comes out. And people need to stop talking about rending slashes as it is on live,, and start comparing its usefulness to other DOT abilities as it is on the PTS.

The main reason why people use rendings for pvp on live is because the initial bleed tick happens before you can use it again. When the PTS patch comes it will no longer be able to do that. With the proposed changes even if you were to spam rendings, it will still do less damage than live when you take into account the delayed initial bleed tick.

likecats

If carve is too strong, then carve will need to be toned down, rending does not need to be buffed.

Dual wield will not become obsolete just because carve is a little stronger than rending slashes. With the whirlwind buff, dual wield will be stronger than ever.

cpuScientist

Venemous and rending are both the same and single target dots. Also remember rending hits 2 times, so that 3.xK is 6.xk just like venomous

Arcanasx

cpuScientist wrote: »

Venemous and rending are both the same and single target dots. Also remember rending hits 2 times, so that 3.xK is 6.xk just like venomous

Yes I realize Rendings hits twice and I have taken that into account when I've done my calculations, I'm not saying that each rendings hit should do as much damage individually as the direct damage from carve and noxious. And claw will usually do more damage than rendings (especially in PvE), is less than half the cost, and also provides a snare with the DK passive.

Sure you can buff the damage of rendings DOT with the masters DW weapon, but your sacrificing something for it, usually a monster set. And when you take battlespirit into account it ends up adding 337 DPS against players when using base values. Masters DW is incredibly overrated for PvP.

Arcanasx

likecats wrote: »

If carve is too strong, then carve will need to be toned down, rending does not need to be buffed.

Dual wield will not become obsolete just because carve is a little stronger than rending slashes. With the whirlwind buff, dual wield will be stronger than ever.

Lets not forget that whirling blades/tornado aren't the only AOEs having its damage buffed. Will they be good abilities? Absolutely. Will they be these crazy over the top I win buttons that many are complaining about? No, especially when you take into account the decreased execute threshold and the reduction of 9m to 6m for the execute morph.

DisgracefulMind

Arcanasx wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

When bleeds stop ignoring all resistances, sure.

Carve also does bleed damage? Its also an AOE that does more damage than rendings. And we have to take into account PVE as well, where bleeds aren't as good.

Yes, it also does bleed damage. Bleeds ARE actually quite good in PvE because they ignore resistances.

Arcanasx

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

When bleeds stop ignoring all resistances, sure.

Carve also does bleed damage? Its also an AOE that does more damage than rendings. And we have to take into account PVE as well, where bleeds aren't as good.

Yes, it also does bleed damage. Bleeds ARE actually quite good in PvE because they ignore resistances.

And if you're any good at PVE you would expect to be able to ignore most of those resistances anyway either by yourself or with a competent group providing the debuffs.

DisgracefulMind

Arcanasx wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

When bleeds stop ignoring all resistances, sure.

Carve also does bleed damage? Its also an AOE that does more damage than rendings. And we have to take into account PVE as well, where bleeds aren't as good.

Yes, it also does bleed damage. Bleeds ARE actually quite good in PvE because they ignore resistances.

And if you're any good at PVE you would expect to be able to ignore most of those resistances anyway either by yourself or with a competent group providing the debuffs.

I mean, in trials, sure.

Arcanasx

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

When bleeds stop ignoring all resistances, sure.

Carve also does bleed damage? Its also an AOE that does more damage than rendings. And we have to take into account PVE as well, where bleeds aren't as good.

Yes, it also does bleed damage. Bleeds ARE actually quite good in PvE because they ignore resistances.

And if you're any good at PVE you would expect to be able to ignore most of those resistances anyway either by yourself or with a competent group providing the debuffs.

I mean, in trials, sure.

And dungeons too.

zyk

What problem does your proposal actually solve other than scratching an apparent OCD itch? Why do all abilities have to be equally viable in all applications?

Rending Slashes is already very good in PVP and arguably OP with Master DW weapons. I don't care much about PVE, but I think it's probably balanced in most PVE applications too.

Also, I think it's wrong to compare Rending Slashes to class defining StamDK dots -- though I think it compares fine when bleeds are taken into account. I think there's an expectation that class abilities should generally be more attractive than similar abilities available to all classes.

brandonv516

No thank you.

Arcanasx

brandonv516 wrote: »

No thank you.

"I personally don't like rendings being used against me on live so I'm happy to see it not be brought up to the standards of other DOT abilities that have been buffed next patch".

Arcanasx

zyk wrote: »

What problem does your proposal actually solve other than scratching an apparent OCD itch? Why do all abilities have to be equally viable in all applications?

Rending Slashes is already very good in PVP and arguably OP with Master DW weapons. I don't care much about PVE, but I think it's probably balanced in most PVE applications too.

Also, I think it's wrong to compare Rending Slashes to class defining StamDK dots -- though I think it compares fine when bleeds are taken into account. I think there's an expectation that class abilities should generally be more attractive than similar abilities available to all classes.

Rending slashes is very good in PVP now on live, its not going to be so great after the DOT tick nerf in combination with the other buffed abilities. And people keep overlooking the masters two handed weapon. That masters dual wield weapon will not be as good when the delayed tick nerf comes to live, as you can no longer spam the bleeds every second which is the case for live right now.

They wouldn't all be equally viable in all situations, they would still have their strengths and weaknesses; rendings would be more efficient against single targets while the AOEs are better against multiple targets generally. Stam sorcs are getting screwed over by the rendings change and as a stam dk why would I pick rendings over noxious breath and claw (if space is limited and I'm dual wielding) as they are on the PTS currently? I think people are focusing too much on its live performance at the moment and not thinking about its comparison to other skills as it is on the PTS.

idk

To OP. I suggest removing carve being you are discussion the PTS and it no longer has a DoT unless it was added back today.

Arcanasx

idk wrote: »

To OP. I suggest removing carve being you are discussion the PTS and it no longer has a DoT unless it was added back today.

Its the base skill that no longer has a bleed, and brawler doesn't either, but you can see that carve clearly has a bleed DOT by looking at the screenshot I took earlier today from the PTS.

Feanor

The real problem with Bleeds is how expensive and therefore unrealistic purging is.

zyk

Arcanasx wrote: »

Rending slashes is very good in PVP now on live, its not going to be so great after the DOT tick nerf in combination with the other buffed abilities. And people keep overlooking the masters two handed weapon. That masters dual wield weapon will not be as good when the delayed tick nerf comes to live, as you can no longer spam the bleeds every second which is the case for live right now.

This isn't how I commonly encounter it. I usually see it used as a DOT. It is popular in PVP because it bypasses resistances. This could mean up to 50% more damage which is massive. Combined with DW Master weapons that can be backbared, it will continue to be extremely formidable in PVP in update 5.

In the case of Carve and Noxious Breath, that's not an Apples to Apples comparison because they are PBAoEs which are a separate topic altogether. I think I disagree with all of the PBAoE changes. Noxious, for the price, is way too strong. So I don't think Rending should be buffed to match them.

Rikumaru

Arcanasx wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Venemous and rending are both the same and single target dots. Also remember rending hits 2 times, so that 3.xK is 6.xk just like venomous

Yes I realize Rendings hits twice and I have taken that into account when I've done my calculations, I'm not saying that each rendings hit should do as much damage individually as the direct damage from carve and noxious. And claw will usually do more damage than rendings (especially in PvE), is less than half the cost, and also provides a snare with the DK passive.

Sure you can buff the damage of rendings DOT with the masters DW weapon, but your sacrificing something for it, usually a monster set. And when you take battlespirit into account it ends up adding 337 DPS against players when using base values. Masters DW is incredibly overrated for PvP.

Yeah, master DW is so overrated for PvP, it only adds like 9k tooltip bleed damage which is basically double the tooltip damage. Sooooooooooo weakkkkkkkkkk. Btw claw is not nearly as good as rending (base rending, no master DW) either cause bleeds ignore resistances.

p.s: If you are sacrificing a monster set to go a master weapon, you are doing it all wrong. You either don't go a master weapon or you go a backbar set.

wheem_ESO

I'll trade you my Fetcher Infection for your "underpowered" and recently "nerfed" Rending Slashes + Master Weapon interaction.

Davadin

Rending is OP in live. It's getting a little nerf so it doesn't get the DoT applied immediately. This is without Master Weapons.

other DoT gets a buff, because they're underwhelming.


It's fine.


Let me enjoy going Carve-puke-carve-puke-carve-puke-carve-puke...... in LIve servers.....