The Trouble with MagRomancer and MagDen

cpuScientist

Both of these classes are similarly weak in both PvE and PvP content. They both rely on highly telegraphed bursts they both have very limited options for damage in class. Where the magRomancer is better in PvE is its ultimate selection, the Flesh atronach is a great ultimate and rez ulti can be clutch for PvE, and the bone colussus is good for tanks I guess. The bear is and has been bad since its inception. It offers no flexibility and while it does great single target damage it suffers from pathing and being on the wrong target and even still it dies in certain content, and no flexibility for times when you need to hold a destro ulti you cannot because you wanna use the bear so the team has to have one less destro for a class that still does poor dps so why even bring it.

The magRomancer flat misses abilities, and in mobile boss fights the tether will not even hit the boss and to be set up again a corpse needs to be set up in the new location of the boss and the boss has to stay there, or in mob fights same thing. Further the summons are very very lackluster provides basically no pressure in PvP and are low on the pole of dps in PvE. Tombstone having a interact is good though, probably the only thing good outside of the ultimates. Then since dps is sooo tied to the Blastbones, it does not fire off in any kind of predictable manner, if you are far away it can be several GCD's extra before you can get it off and in close range sometimes it will wait for a second or so before popping. Causing you to have to kind of pause your rotation and waste a GCD now and then.

On the magDen side the Bear is all of the dps and it was recently nerfed, thus the damage went down. It was nerfed so other ultimates could compete, but they still lag behind by about 3k and this damage was not introduced into other parts of the class like the ground AOE or the BORING UNINTERESTING dot. No bear and the already bad dps gets worst, have the bear and you have no flexibility to do anything and have to babysit an NPC that seems stupid at times. I propose giving the bear 1 of 2 things, either letting it be single barred and remain constant, or OR OOOORRRRRRR give it an AOE roar component at a higher ulti cost this could either be back bar secondary ultimate or work like incap and have this new effect at a higher cost. Perhaps giving the group major force for 5 seconds . If not whatever. But the bear is holding the class back while also being the only thing that can save it. It leads to both being just awful to play. And feel like you are dragging the group down to play your favorite class.

THE WORST PART is like magBlade they have a fairly involved and rewarding to master rotations for dps and yet have just poor dps to show for it.

In PvP they are so similar it hurts, tons of good heals and defenses, but HIGHLY telegraphed bursts with no way to secure atleast 1 hit as the classes have *** poor stuns. They desperately need a good in class stun something that can drop block, so that atleast once every 7ish seconds they can get the combo off. Instead of being kited and soon blocked into irrelevancy. They need work to be brought up to snuff. Take my main magSorc as a quick example. The class has a similar burst skill in frag, yet in class they have a skill that drops block so they can deliver that fine burst, while also having a burst skill that goes through block in curse. They are able to deliver burst. magBlade while weak currently in open world blah blah, also have a stun to deliver their one big burst "with the recent slowing of it, not guaranteed sure but something" magDK can drop block, now magPlar cannot drop block but they have an ability a burst that bypasses it in puryfiying light.

Take a look at these classes, they feel similar, but honestly in PvP magRomancer feels like a knock off magDen which is sad. And in PvE they are both sad in the corner wanting to be played.

nsmurfer

I would like to romance a MagRomancer..

ESO_Nightingale

Magden's been like that for 2 years. Only recently its finally fully hit the pavement on the PvP side though.

DisgracefulMind

Can we just call them Mag Necro?

Magden's issue, and this is the same with Mag Necro is that we don't have a good CC...on either class. The mag necro fear totem should continuously stay armed. The issue is that mag necro seems to be made to stand its ground, but it has a hard time doing so; it doesn't have the tools to do so. Magden's issue is that it just has a trash CC and you're better off running clench with master destro. Mag necro will fall into that too, I'm sure.

I'd really like to know why ZoS doesn't think it's okay for Magden, Mag Necro, or Magplar to have CCs that function for how their class needs to be played. But DK, NB, and Sorc all have good CC options (you can argue with Sorc, but Sorc isn't entirely forced into clench spam).

cpuScientist

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Can we just call them Mag Necro?

Magden's issue, and this is the same with Mag Necro is that we don't have a good CC...on either class. The mag necro fear totem should continuously stay armed. The issue is that mag necro seems to be made to stand its ground, but it has a hard time doing so; it doesn't have the tools to do so. Magden's issue is that it just has a trash CC and you're better off running clench with master destro. Mag necro will fall into that too, I'm sure.

I'd really like to know why ZoS doesn't think it's okay for Magden, Mag Necro, or Magplar to have CCs that function for how their class needs to be played. But DK, NB, and Sorc all have good CC options (you can argue with Sorc, but Sorc isn't entirely forced into clench spam).

I get that all classes do not need to mirror each other. But damn, they both have the hardest to hit burst most telegraphed too and nothing in class to help land it, well arrow proc is hard to hit too lol, but yeah. And it can be blocked and is reduced by a whopping 25% by evasion anyway. The totem I do not get what that is sorry, bad bad skill.

But one day magDen will be given the magPlar treatment and be risen from the dumps and be made into a competitve dps. But not this patch cause it is all about nightblad... i I mean necromancer.

cpuScientist

ALSO MAGROMANCER AND STAMROMANCER sound better than magCro or magNecro sorry never accepting those. why not be a ROMANCER.

LukosCreyden

Magcro*

Stamcro*

The whole point of abbreviating these classes is to make them faster to type.

DisgracefulMind

cpuScientist wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Can we just call them Mag Necro?

Magden's issue, and this is the same with Mag Necro is that we don't have a good CC...on either class. The mag necro fear totem should continuously stay armed. The issue is that mag necro seems to be made to stand its ground, but it has a hard time doing so; it doesn't have the tools to do so. Magden's issue is that it just has a trash CC and you're better off running clench with master destro. Mag necro will fall into that too, I'm sure.

I'd really like to know why ZoS doesn't think it's okay for Magden, Mag Necro, or Magplar to have CCs that function for how their class needs to be played. But DK, NB, and Sorc all have good CC options (you can argue with Sorc, but Sorc isn't entirely forced into clench spam).

I get that all classes do not need to mirror each other. But damn, they both have the hardest to hit burst most telegraphed too and nothing in class to help land it, well arrow proc is hard to hit too lol, but yeah. And it can be blocked and is reduced by a whopping 25% by evasion anyway. The totem I do not get what that is sorry, bad bad skill.

But one day magDen will be given the magPlar treatment and be risen from the dumps and be made into a competitve dps. But not this patch cause it is all about nightblad... i I mean necromancer.

I'm a Magden, why are you preaching to the choir?

Joy_Division

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Can we just call them Mag Necro?


I'd really like to know why ZoS doesn't think it's okay for Magden, Mag Necro, or Magplar to have CCs that function for how their class needs to be played. But DK, NB, and Sorc all have good CC options (you can argue with Sorc, but Sorc isn't entirely forced into clench spam).

I don;t know. It's like they believe that if a skill is capable of CCing a player, then that makes it a quality CC.

Tryxus

Joy_Division wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Can we just call them Mag Necro?


I'd really like to know why ZoS doesn't think it's okay for Magden, Mag Necro, or Magplar to have CCs that function for how their class needs to be played. But DK, NB, and Sorc all have good CC options (you can argue with Sorc, but Sorc isn't entirely forced into clench spam).

I don;t know. It's like they believe that if a skill is capable of CCing a player, then that makes it a quality CC.

Well we used to have a quality CC, but that got taken away from us due to generalization. The same reason that caused another key skill to get nerfed this update...

Anhedonie

Magicka Warden is just a failure of game design and people who made it should learn a bit more from different classes, maybe even look at classes in different games for inspiration.

Magicka Necromancer though is fairly salvagable without major reworks, unlike warden. It just needs some speed ups in area increase for a couple of spells. And maybe health removal from Blastbones, since you still can block it, for example.

Main crux of these classes though is bad AI. Blastbones and bear especially suffer from it.

Excelsus

Magromancer. Thats staying.

ESO_Nightingale

Tryxus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Can we just call them Mag Necro?


I'd really like to know why ZoS doesn't think it's okay for Magden, Mag Necro, or Magplar to have CCs that function for how their class needs to be played. But DK, NB, and Sorc all have good CC options (you can argue with Sorc, but Sorc isn't entirely forced into clench spam).

I don;t know. It's like they believe that if a skill is capable of CCing a player, then that makes it a quality CC.

Well we used to have a quality CC, but that got taken away from us due to generalization. The same reason that caused another key skill to get nerfed this update...

Bro it was the same skill

Ocelot9x

I don’t get why people consider magden weak. It has no cc it’s true but clench is a really powerful skill, spammable, cheap and it apply a lot of pressure. I’m having a blast with mine playing destro/resto, with master fire staff main bar the pressure you can apply is incredible and paired with the burst from scorch the only thing you’re lacking is a burst ultimate. Also with the upcoming change to RAT you also have a snare removal plus a useful buff to damage if you’re running light armor. As for magcro I think is quite similiar but you can burst with the smashing colossus ulti after a close quarter clench, even tho blastbone is harder to land compared to scorch.

xylena_lazarow

Magicka Necro = Macro

Savos_Saren

I think the original Magromancer skill (Bone Spikes?) was very similar to Impaling Shards. I wouldn't mind it, though. Currently, Ghostly Embrace is just plain BORING.

Ghostly Embrace is completely overshadowed by skills like Impaling Shards (minor maim, damage, immobilize) and Choking Talons (minor maim, damage, immobilize). Hell, even Shattering Prison (damage, immobilize, passive heal) and Crippling Grasp (damage, immobilize, long range) is even better.

Please make Ghostly Embrace do some form of damage... even if you have to tailor it a bit. Again- this skill is just plain boring and makes tanking dull on a Necromancer.

BrokenGameMechanics

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Magden's been like that for 2 years. Only recently its finally fully hit the pavement on the PvP side though.

I've found only two less then bad ways to play a Magden in PVP.

The first was as a Frost Mage. This has been severally nerfed this upcoming release and is no longer viable.

The second was as a "Combat Support" role. Healers heal. Combat Support is buffs, lots of AOEs, timely tactical heals and damage application. That is also in a bit of trouble. The upcoming Earthgore change is sucking away all of a Combat Support's healing and offensive AOEs reduces tacitical battlefield options markedly for this build. Will Earthgore suck away Stamina AOE's as well? Hail? Caltrips?

Playing a Magden as a vanilla Warden placing animals on the front bar is was already ineffective after 2 years of steady nerfing with a nerf as large as any in the upcoming release with Scorch being blockable now.

Someone correctly if I'm wrong ...

BUT FROM A DPS PERSPECTIVE IN THE ENTIRE 2 YEARS SINCE WARDENS INTRODUCTION THEY HAVE NEVER RECEIVED A SINGLE DAMAGE BUFF AND RECEIVED NERFS EVERY RELEASE. Two straight years of nerfs.

Birds nerfed (twice)
Scorch nerfed (several times)
Bugs nerfed (and I quote the quantifiable driven Combat Designer "We increased the magicka cost of skill until it felt right." Very scientific.)
BOP nerfed.
Bear nerfed.[1]

From Day 1 to Current there is/was near universal opinion that Magdens were not near where they needed to be, yet, 2 years of nerfs and zero buffs. It has been pretty rough to main a Magden during this entire ride. But I think this release will do me in and I'll just move on.

[1] OK, yes the Bear was nerfed to be a bottom of the barrel Ulti (double bar required) and animal's damage passive was buffed, but this was designed very carefully to be a damage neutral adjustment. Hence, does not count as a damage buff for Magdens.

cpuScientist

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Magden's been like that for 2 years. Only recently its finally fully hit the pavement on the PvP side though.

I've found only two less then bad ways to play a Magden in PVP.

The first was as a Frost Mage. This has been severally nerfed this upcoming release and is no longer viable.

The second was as a "Combat Support" role. Healers heal. Combat Support is buffs, lots of AOEs, timely tactical heals and damage application. That is also in a bit of trouble. The upcoming Earthgore change is sucking away all of a Combat Support's healing and offensive AOEs reduces tacitical battlefield options markedly for this build. Will Earthgore suck away Stamina AOE's as well? Hail? Caltrips?

Playing a Magden as a vanilla Warden placing animals on the front bar is was already ineffective after 2 years of steady nerfing with a nerf as large as any in the upcoming release with Scorch being blockable now.

Someone correctly if I'm wrong ...

BUT FROM A DPS PERSPECTIVE IN THE ENTIRE 2 YEARS SINCE WARDENS INTRODUCTION THEY HAVE NEVER RECEIVED A SINGLE DAMAGE BUFF AND RECEIVED NERFS EVERY RELEASE. Two straight years of nerfs.

Birds nerfed (twice)
Scorch nerfed (several times)
Bugs nerfed (and I quote the quantifiable driven Combat Designer "We increased the magicka cost of skill until it felt right." Very scientific.)
BOP nerfed.
Bear nerfed.[1]

From Day 1 to Current there is/was near universal opinion that Magdens were not near where they needed to be, yet, 2 years of nerfs and zero buffs. It has been pretty rough to main a Magden during this entire ride. But I think this release will do me in and I'll just move on.

[1] OK, yes the Bear was nerfed to be a bottom of the barrel Ulti (double bar required) and animal's damage passive was buffed, but this was designed very carefully to be a damage neutral adjustment. Hence, does not count as a damage buff for Magdens.

The biggest nerf they did was decreasing the bears DPS so other ultimates could compete. But not really putting that DPS anywhere else in the kit.

StamDen is fine and not in need of buffs. So the buffs need to come from the magDen specific dots both the ground and bug dot. And the bear needs to either be single barrable so we can slot northern storm front bar or the bear be given an AOE component at higher cost.

But the class needs some work so does magNecro they are in the same dang boat. But I think worst off because the Blastbones is so buggy and unreliable. And it's best DPS is close up it surfers from range. And it misses and is a pain to deal with corpses when others can take them you lose GCD with the blastbones and the tether can be a pain to keep up

ESO_Nightingale

cpuScientist wrote: »

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Magden's been like that for 2 years. Only recently its finally fully hit the pavement on the PvP side though.

I've found only two less then bad ways to play a Magden in PVP.

The first was as a Frost Mage. This has been severally nerfed this upcoming release and is no longer viable.

The second was as a "Combat Support" role. Healers heal. Combat Support is buffs, lots of AOEs, timely tactical heals and damage application. That is also in a bit of trouble. The upcoming Earthgore change is sucking away all of a Combat Support's healing and offensive AOEs reduces tacitical battlefield options markedly for this build. Will Earthgore suck away Stamina AOE's as well? Hail? Caltrips?

Playing a Magden as a vanilla Warden placing animals on the front bar is was already ineffective after 2 years of steady nerfing with a nerf as large as any in the upcoming release with Scorch being blockable now.

Someone correctly if I'm wrong ...

BUT FROM A DPS PERSPECTIVE IN THE ENTIRE 2 YEARS SINCE WARDENS INTRODUCTION THEY HAVE NEVER RECEIVED A SINGLE DAMAGE BUFF AND RECEIVED NERFS EVERY RELEASE. Two straight years of nerfs.

Birds nerfed (twice)
Scorch nerfed (several times)
Bugs nerfed (and I quote the quantifiable driven Combat Designer "We increased the magicka cost of skill until it felt right." Very scientific.)
BOP nerfed.
Bear nerfed.[1]

From Day 1 to Current there is/was near universal opinion that Magdens were not near where they needed to be, yet, 2 years of nerfs and zero buffs. It has been pretty rough to main a Magden during this entire ride. But I think this release will do me in and I'll just move on.

[1] OK, yes the Bear was nerfed to be a bottom of the barrel Ulti (double bar required) and animal's damage passive was buffed, but this was designed very carefully to be a damage neutral adjustment. Hence, does not count as a damage buff for Magdens.

The biggest nerf they did was decreasing the bears DPS so other ultimates could compete. But not really putting that DPS anywhere else in the kit.

StamDen is fine and not in need of buffs. So the buffs need to come from the magDen specific dots both the ground and bug dot. And the bear needs to either be single barrable so we can slot northern storm front bar or the bear be given an AOE component at higher cost.

But the class needs some work so does magNecro they are in the same dang boat. But I think worst off because the Blastbones is so buggy and unreliable. And it's best DPS is close up it surfers from range. And it misses and is a pain to deal with corpses when others can take them you lose GCD with the blastbones and the tether can be a pain to keep up

What magden needs is buffs to arctic blast to give it damage and a unique effect along with small reworks to morphs of animal companions to add utility. And several TOTAL reworks to other underused and underperforming winter's embrace morphs to turn them into damage skills. People forget that a massive problem with the class is that they have 4 normal damaging skills and that they offer little to no utility on these skills and the rest of them are raw damage with no other actually interesting mechanics (Fissure's breach is being given to necromag next patch) I call this problem: "lack of quality and quantity of damage skills"

The magicka damage dealer portion of Warden is blatantly incomplete.

Iki

Ocelot9x wrote: »

I don’t get why people consider magden weak. It has no cc it’s true but clench is a really powerful skill, spammable, cheap and it apply a lot of pressure. I’m having a blast with mine playing destro/resto, with master fire staff main bar the pressure you can apply is incredible and paired with the burst from scorch the only thing you’re lacking is a burst ultimate. Also with the upcoming change to RAT you also have a snare removal plus a useful buff to damage if you’re running light armor. As for magcro I think is quite similiar but you can burst with the smashing colossus ulti after a close quarter clench, even tho blastbone is harder to land compared to scorch.

Warden got cc, but issues is, it`s hardly worth using.
I think it`s poor class-design if class desperately needs specific item/set to be able to perform well. Without masters staff you might find out that destro clench is both too expensive and too weak. And not everyone got those staves either.
Hello newcomer, you wanted to play magden in pvp? vDsa is that way, learn, farm and pray RNG to give u what u need.

This isn`t my personal issue, I got masters staves and my magden is doing fine with it. But class/spec should be playable for everyone, not just for those who own certain weapon. Arctic blast should be buffed or re-designed asap to bring its usefulness closer to cc-skills other classes have.

LeHarrt91

MagDen is pretty potent in PVP at the moment but as already said it requires specific gear. For PVP the MagDen needs a few changes to lack lustre skills and will be in a good place.

MagDen in PVE though, does need some decent changes to improve their usefulness in trials. Changes to skills like Swarm and Screaming Cliff Racer to function better and provide some group utility will go a long way, because as is the only group utility they grant allies is Major Slayer from using Master Architect and the Bear.

J18696

//

J18696

necro in general feels so unfinished it's not funny and magden has been getting slapped in the face in terms of its viable play style options ever since it came out

Mr_Nobody

Considering how the words are built, it should be:

Magromancer
Stamromancer

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Considering how the words are built, it should be:

Magromancer
Stamromancer

Nay

Wuuffyy

The clickbait tho

Anhedonie

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Considering how the words are built, it should be:

Magromancer
Stamromancer

Any variation sounds stupid, but the point is to make it shorter, so it would be macro and stacro. If you don't want to dip into *** words territory, then go with magicka necromancer/stamina necromancer.

cpuScientist

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Considering how the words are built, it should be:

Magromancer
Stamromancer

I agree. MagRomancer and StamRomancer, listen folks if you have a chance at Romance you don't throw it away for some cheap easy abbreviation...

cpuScientist

It's funny how both classes are so similarly meh.

Vildebill

Magicka Romancer? I'd like a bit of that romance please.

Anyways, it's Mag Necro and Stam Necro. We even voted for it.

Elwendryll

Stamancer and Necromag. We have to optimize the usage of each letter!