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• PC/Mac: No maintenance – January 5
• NA megaservers for maintenance – January 7, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – January 7, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC)
What Does Magblade Need?
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Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭How is Soul Harvest bad? lt hits like a truck, applies major defile, increases damage done by 20%, and is one of the very few ultimates not mitigated by evasion. When it wasn't able to be dodged, it was severely overpowered. It's used across the board in all types of builds: bombing, open-world, and ganking. How could anyone be so unsatisfied with a skill?
Because it doesn't work well with the magblade kit. If you gave soul harvest to, lets say a mag dk or magplar it would be fantastic and everybody would use it. But for magblades who are effectively a purely ranged kit it just doesn't synergise well.
I don’t know if I’d say magblades are a pure ranged kit, at least not in pvp. Everything that’s ranged a magblade can do is a projectile so terrible in pvp. That’s why a lot of magblade pvpers move to melee.
Hybrid melee ranged might work post patch, I’m not sure.
I approached pvp at first as a dps, ended up in some weird crushing shock spamming spec. It was terrible, that’s when I dropped magblade damage for healing.
That's the point, it feels like ZOS is trying to make this kit into some weird melee / ranged hybrid which at the moment is not working well at all. Like what is the identity of a magicka nightblade? I just don't understand. And yeah I agree they make good healers but outside of that I just don't see what a magicka nightblade can do which another class can't do better.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.2 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭TBH changing Shrewd Offering to some sort of self heal would help even if I wouldn't know where to put it on my bar. I really don't understand the healing on Grim Focus at this point. The main use I can think of is a self heal for new players on stamblades who have no idea about how to get vigor yet. I'd prefer to see it get removed and a static HoT on Swallow Soul be implemented.
If magblade isn't the highest dps ranged class next patch solely due to the buffs other classes got it'd probably be ok to give some decent self healing back.
I still think the extra mitigation will enable more squishy nightblade builds to actually run Shadowy Disguise and not have to crutch on it. ZOS would have to vastly increase medium stamblade's self healing and light armor magblade's self healing to make Shadowy Disguise something that the class won't have to crutch on.
Finally the biggest bane of any nightblade in melee range, AOE damage spam, is getting strongly buffed next patch pretty much across the board. That crazy mitigation on Grim Focus might be needed even if the value needs to be reduced to 2% per stack or 2.4% per stack2 -
Zevrro✭✭✭✭I would say healing is the biggest problem. There are too many times where I am stuck in execute range cloaked and have no reliable way of healing up which forces me to almost disengage from a fight that I don't want to disengage from despite my build being heavily built for self heals as opposed to shields. I suppose on live there is the option of switching to dark cloak however that means losing stealth and dark cloak doesn't seem worth slotting next patch.@Zevrro PC-EU
CP 1200+
Azura's Star/Sotha Sil/Bahlokdaan
Magicka Nightblade
AD | Zevrro | Magicka Nightblade | AR43 |
AD | Zevrro II | Magicka Nightblade | AR50 | 09-02-2019 |
DC | Not Zevrro | Magicka Nightblade | AR33 |
EP | Ževrro | Magicka Nightblade | AR14 |Other PvP Characters
AD | Zevrro VII | Stamina Warden | AR33 |
AD | Zevrro XII | Magicka Warden | AR22 |
DC | Not Zevrro II | Magicka Warden | AR14 |
DC | Necrotic Zevrro | Magicka Necromancer | AR17 |
EP | Real-Skyice | Stamina Warden | AR10 |
>156m AP3 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭How is Soul Harvest bad? lt hits like a truck, applies major defile, increases damage done by 20%, and is one of the very few ultimates not mitigated by evasion. When it wasn't able to be dodged, it was severely overpowered. It's used across the board in all types of builds: bombing, open-world, and ganking. How could anyone be so unsatisfied with a skill?
Because it doesn't work well with the magblade kit. If you gave soul harvest to, lets say a mag dk or magplar it would be fantastic and everybody would use it. But for magblades who are effectively a purely ranged kit it just doesn't synergise well.
I don’t know if I’d say magblades are a pure ranged kit, at least not in pvp. Everything that’s ranged a magblade can do is a projectile so terrible in pvp. That’s why a lot of magblade pvpers move to melee.
Hybrid melee ranged might work post patch, I’m not sure.
I approached pvp at first as a dps, ended up in some weird crushing shock spamming spec. It was terrible, that’s when I dropped magblade damage for healing.
That's the point, it feels like ZOS is trying to make this kit into some weird melee / ranged hybrid which at the moment is not working well at all. Like what is the identity of a magicka nightblade? I just don't understand. And yeah I agree they make good healers but outside of that I just don't see what a magicka nightblade can do which another class can't do better.
I don’t think there’s supposed to be an identity like you say. The game’s premise is play how you want.
I like having fun, to me that means winning because winning’s fun, so I’ll gravitate towards the best spec for the class whatever it is. If anything the defining things for NB is cloak, that’s about it.
Ranged/melee hybrids could work, IDK. There are some nice tools coming up for it. As a magblade dps I’d try ranged first, melee to finish, shade out if it gets too hot. As ranged abilities go the only real hard hitter is impale, it’s great for sorcs who try to shield through being low health and will become usable against DKs. The execute bonus is enough that DKs low health blocking with wings up will still feel it.Edited by Iskiab on May 10, 2019 10:31PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
lnigo✭✭✭How is Soul Harvest bad? lt hits like a truck, applies major defile, increases damage done by 20%, and is one of the very few ultimates not mitigated by evasion. When it wasn't able to be dodged, it was severely overpowered. It's used across the board in all types of builds: bombing, open-world, and ganking. How could anyone be so unsatisfied with a skill?
Because it doesn't work well with the magblade kit. If you gave soul harvest to, lets say a mag dk or magplar it would be fantastic and everybody would use it. But for magblades who are effectively a purely ranged kit it just doesn't synergise well.
I main a melee magblade, but like I've said in other posts, even if I slotted a destro staff I would still be in melee range of my target. This makes not only Soul Harvest well suited for the class, but also Mass Hysteria (used in conjunction mostly). There are only four widely used ranged classes in the game: magblade, magsorc, magcro, and snipe spammers. And the way magsorcs are played now, you'd be at a disadvantage if both of you stay ranged, since they will sit behind their pets.
Every other class in the game is going to be on your ass: all stam characters, magdk, magplar, and magden. I find it very hard to believe you stay ranged in every single situation you come across in Cyrodiil.
And besides, if Soul Harvest doesn't work well in the nighblade toolkit, then neither does Soul Tether. So what ultimate ability do you use?
While it's true classes will get on to you, that isn't to say ranged isn't useful since it allows you to attack someone pretty much whenever you want given they aren't behind something, invisible or snared to death. Take mag sorc for an example, could you imagine how different and bad it would play if it could only cast most of it's abilities close range?
As for soul harvest being well suited for the class, it's well suited for an underperforming spec on an underperforming class. It being a 28m or 15m range would help make the ultimate actually work well with both melee and ranged magicka nb.
Well yeah, magsorcs and magblades would be total trash if most of their abilities were only able to be cast in melee range. However, we're talking about one ability here, and maybe Mass Hysteria. That makes two, which doesn't equate to most of a magblade's abilities. There are two ranged ults to use if you wanted to be completely ranged. The reliability of these ults is surely questionable, but there has to be counterplay to everything, right?2 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭TBH I've alwas played as ranged/melee hybrid. If they somehow go down into a Flame Reach->Assassin's Will combo more power to me but adding in a Soul Harvest first is nice. Whenever I play with Mass Hysteria instead of Flame Reach I'm even more in the vein of a ranged/melee hybrid.
So maybe you let someone close the gap into a Soul Harvest->Mass Hysteria->Assassin's Will combo. Or you close the gap in stealth and they don't immediately block like they should because???? then they eat a critical SH into Fear and Will. Even a Flame Reach into SH sometimes works even though it is awkward as all get out to kinda sprint to land it.
The new mitigation is really going to strongly synergize with this game pattern because I'll be tanky when I most need to be and it doesn't offer a lot of useful mitigation for PVE dps (on average) as well. IMO it is pretty elegant while not being just some flat mitigation bonus that's too strong potentially in PvE and too weak in PvP.
It'll be so much easier to build a functional light armor magblade that doesn't have to crutch on Shadow Disguise which will mean Shadowy Disguise funnily enough will be even better. Cause not predictable, not just doomed by AOE spam, etc etc etc. Yes some more healing would be nice. IDK how to do it without making PvE healers totally useless but I don't think the Grim Focus heal works with that goal at all. Scaling off of raid buffed damage may be way to much in PVE and if it is ye olde double cut by Battle Spirit.... lolololololol.3 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭How is Soul Harvest bad? lt hits like a truck, applies major defile, increases damage done by 20%, and is one of the very few ultimates not mitigated by evasion. When it wasn't able to be dodged, it was severely overpowered. It's used across the board in all types of builds: bombing, open-world, and ganking. How could anyone be so unsatisfied with a skill?
Because it doesn't work well with the magblade kit. If you gave soul harvest to, lets say a mag dk or magplar it would be fantastic and everybody would use it. But for magblades who are effectively a purely ranged kit it just doesn't synergise well.
I main a melee magblade, but like I've said in other posts, even if I slotted a destro staff I would still be in melee range of my target. This makes not only Soul Harvest well suited for the class, but also Mass Hysteria (used in conjunction mostly). There are only four widely used ranged classes in the game: magblade, magsorc, magcro, and snipe spammers. And the way magsorcs are played now, you'd be at a disadvantage if both of you stay ranged, since they will sit behind their pets.
Every other class in the game is going to be on your ass: all stam characters, magdk, magplar, and magden. I find it very hard to believe you stay ranged in every single situation you come across in Cyrodiil.
And besides, if Soul Harvest doesn't work well in the nighblade toolkit, then neither does Soul Tether. So what ultimate ability do you use?
While it's true classes will get on to you, that isn't to say ranged isn't useful since it allows you to attack someone pretty much whenever you want given they aren't behind something, invisible or snared to death. Take mag sorc for an example, could you imagine how different and bad it would play if it could only cast most of it's abilities close range?
As for soul harvest being well suited for the class, it's well suited for an underperforming spec on an underperforming class. It being a 28m or 15m range would help make the ultimate actually work well with both melee and ranged magicka nb.
Well yeah, magsorcs and magblades would be total trash if most of their abilities were only able to be cast in melee range. However, we're talking about one ability here, and maybe Mass Hysteria. That makes two, which doesn't equate to most of a magblade's abilities. There are two ranged ults to use if you wanted to be completely ranged. The reliability of these ults is surely questionable, but there has to be counterplay to everything, right?
Nope, we are talking more than just that. You have the heal from new merciless which heals in only melee range. You have the new lotus fan which is a gap closer and applies minor vulnerability (to replace minor berserk taken away from merciless). You have soul harvest which is a melee range ultimate. NB's cc is also melee range as you pointed out. Literally half the kit feels like its geared towards melee play while the other half is geared towards ranged. And none of it synergises together at all. It's a very poorly designed kit which is exactly why it's one of the worse classes on live right now.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.5 -
lnigo✭✭✭How is Soul Harvest bad? lt hits like a truck, applies major defile, increases damage done by 20%, and is one of the very few ultimates not mitigated by evasion. When it wasn't able to be dodged, it was severely overpowered. It's used across the board in all types of builds: bombing, open-world, and ganking. How could anyone be so unsatisfied with a skill?
Because it doesn't work well with the magblade kit. If you gave soul harvest to, lets say a mag dk or magplar it would be fantastic and everybody would use it. But for magblades who are effectively a purely ranged kit it just doesn't synergise well.
I main a melee magblade, but like I've said in other posts, even if I slotted a destro staff I would still be in melee range of my target. This makes not only Soul Harvest well suited for the class, but also Mass Hysteria (used in conjunction mostly). There are only four widely used ranged classes in the game: magblade, magsorc, magcro, and snipe spammers. And the way magsorcs are played now, you'd be at a disadvantage if both of you stay ranged, since they will sit behind their pets.
Every other class in the game is going to be on your ass: all stam characters, magdk, magplar, and magden. I find it very hard to believe you stay ranged in every single situation you come across in Cyrodiil.
And besides, if Soul Harvest doesn't work well in the nighblade toolkit, then neither does Soul Tether. So what ultimate ability do you use?
While it's true classes will get on to you, that isn't to say ranged isn't useful since it allows you to attack someone pretty much whenever you want given they aren't behind something, invisible or snared to death. Take mag sorc for an example, could you imagine how different and bad it would play if it could only cast most of it's abilities close range?
As for soul harvest being well suited for the class, it's well suited for an underperforming spec on an underperforming class. It being a 28m or 15m range would help make the ultimate actually work well with both melee and ranged magicka nb.
Well yeah, magsorcs and magblades would be total trash if most of their abilities were only able to be cast in melee range. However, we're talking about one ability here, and maybe Mass Hysteria. That makes two, which doesn't equate to most of a magblade's abilities. There are two ranged ults to use if you wanted to be completely ranged. The reliability of these ults is surely questionable, but there has to be counterplay to everything, right?
Nope, we are talking more than just that. You have the heal from new merciless which heals in only melee range. You have the new lotus fan which is a gap closer and applies minor vulnerability (to replace minor berserk taken away from merciless). You have soul harvest which is a melee range ultimate. NB's cc is also melee range as you pointed out. Literally half the kit feels like its geared towards melee play while the other half is geared towards ranged. And none of it synergises together at all. It's a very poorly designed kit which is exactly why it's one of the worse classes on live right now.
Yeah, true, but l mean do we really want 6k-12k damage instant casted ranged ult with no telegraph costing 70 ultimate that provides major defile and 20% damage increase? I'd rather not. There are ranged CC's available and ranged ults available to use.1 -
milesrodneymcneely2_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I actually use a flame staff on my front bar (frost staff on back) specifically for Flame Clench and the buff to Concealed Weapon. My targets seem to have less time to react to Flame Clench and Crippling Grasp when I'm right on top of them.I main a melee magblade, but like I've said in other posts, even if I slotted a destro staff I would still be in melee range of my target. This makes not only Soul Harvest well suited for the class, but also Mass Hysteria (used in conjunction mostly).
Plus, I'm running Torug's Pact, so there's virtually no travel time on my light attacks and - by extension - those juicy enchant procs.
0 -
Insco851✭✭✭✭✭
✭Been playing without cripple on the bar to get used to the lack of major expedition...
Really screws up the ranged to melee combos. Forcing you to run the gap closer instead. Pretty un-ideal.2 -
Insco851✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also, lotus fan doesn’t let you bar swap cleanly so you can’t really run that back bar with a clean bar swap combo. Had a couple deaths due to the delay after it already.
BUT the minor vulnerability on it next patch will allow us to run something else than a charged glyph.1 -
Zevrro✭✭✭✭The current changes to merciless resolve confuse me so much. Previously slotting it would give you increased damage and allow you to charge up a high damage ability but now you're charging up resistance so that you can give up that resistance to damage and an enemy whilst also maybe healing yourself. The best skill magblade had has now lost all identity to the point where I don't know what I'm slotting it for.@Zevrro PC-EU
CP 1200+
Azura's Star/Sotha Sil/Bahlokdaan
Magicka Nightblade
AD | Zevrro | Magicka Nightblade | AR43 |
AD | Zevrro II | Magicka Nightblade | AR50 | 09-02-2019 |
DC | Not Zevrro | Magicka Nightblade | AR33 |
EP | Ževrro | Magicka Nightblade | AR14 |Other PvP Characters
AD | Zevrro VII | Stamina Warden | AR33 |
AD | Zevrro XII | Magicka Warden | AR22 |
DC | Not Zevrro II | Magicka Warden | AR14 |
DC | Necrotic Zevrro | Magicka Necromancer | AR17 |
EP | Real-Skyice | Stamina Warden | AR10 |
>156m AP3 -
Insco851✭✭✭✭✭
✭The current changes to merciless resolve confuse me so much. Previously slotting it would give you increased damage and allow you to charge up a high damage ability but now you're charging up resistance so that you can give up that resistance to damage and an enemy whilst also maybe healing yourself. The best skill magblade had has now lost all identity to the point where I don't know what I'm slotting it for.
It’s more like they were trying to balance the spec for pve.
The community will agree that Mnb needed additional healing for pvp. So they removed The dmg buff from merc, gave it a situational heal but better yet they gave the class more mitigation while procing said burst.... it’s really not a bad idea overall.
It takes TIME to build the proc and line up the kill. Now you save it until the kill window is very clear- gaining the mitigation advantage during that time frame.
The heal... based on dmg... is disappointing. I’d have rather a set burst heal been given instead- and at full range.4 -
Zevrro✭✭✭✭The current changes to merciless resolve confuse me so much. Previously slotting it would give you increased damage and allow you to charge up a high damage ability but now you're charging up resistance so that you can give up that resistance to damage and an enemy whilst also maybe healing yourself. The best skill magblade had has now lost all identity to the point where I don't know what I'm slotting it for.
It’s more like they were trying to balance the spec for pve.
The community will agree that Mnb needed additional healing for pvp. So they removed The dmg buff from merc, gave it a situational heal but better yet they gave the class more mitigation while procing said burst.... it’s really not a bad idea overall.
It takes TIME to build the proc and line up the kill. Now you save it until the kill window is very clear- gaining the mitigation advantage during that time frame.
The heal... based on dmg... is disappointing. I’d have rather a set burst heal been given instead- and at full range.
I guess this is another example of why PVE and PVP should be balanced separately.@Zevrro PC-EU
CP 1200+
Azura's Star/Sotha Sil/Bahlokdaan
Magicka Nightblade
AD | Zevrro | Magicka Nightblade | AR43 |
AD | Zevrro II | Magicka Nightblade | AR50 | 09-02-2019 |
DC | Not Zevrro | Magicka Nightblade | AR33 |
EP | Ževrro | Magicka Nightblade | AR14 |Other PvP Characters
AD | Zevrro VII | Stamina Warden | AR33 |
AD | Zevrro XII | Magicka Warden | AR22 |
DC | Not Zevrro II | Magicka Warden | AR14 |
DC | Necrotic Zevrro | Magicka Necromancer | AR17 |
EP | Real-Skyice | Stamina Warden | AR10 |
>156m AP1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The current changes to merciless resolve confuse me so much. Previously slotting it would give you increased damage and allow you to charge up a high damage ability but now you're charging up resistance so that you can give up that resistance to damage and an enemy whilst also maybe healing yourself. The best skill magblade had has now lost all identity to the point where I don't know what I'm slotting it for.
It’s more like they were trying to balance the spec for pve.
The community will agree that Mnb needed additional healing for pvp. So they removed The dmg buff from merc, gave it a situational heal but better yet they gave the class more mitigation while procing said burst.... it’s really not a bad idea overall.
It takes TIME to build the proc and line up the kill. Now you save it until the kill window is very clear- gaining the mitigation advantage during that time frame.
The heal... based on dmg... is disappointing. I’d have rather a set burst heal been given instead- and at full range.
I guess this is another example of why PVE and PVP should be balanced separately.
Issue is moreso reflections then damage output. It’s pretty crazy how it is now on live, DKs and Wardens can make themselves invincible to everything a magblade can do that isn’t melee.
It’s pretty funny, as a healer I got around them by using the BRP staff with frost ring and blockade, kill stealing with impale. There are some matches I’ve been in against your typical BG full of wardens, DKs and Sorcs and ended up doing more damage then magblades on my team. I’m using primarily aoe, but I’m also healing and usually 2:1 healing to damage output.
For merciless like Insco said is best. Hold the merciless stacks until you want to burst, then unload the ult and merciless.
The only time a magblade dps shines in pvp now is against a bunch of bow specs. I had a lucky BG matched against them where I went 21-1, otherwise I was usually even KvD in my BGs as a dps. Crazy as it sounds, my KvD is actually better for me as a healer then dps.Edited by Iskiab on May 11, 2019 1:14AMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
Insco851✭✭✭✭✭
✭I’d argue the cripple nerf is my biggest gripe now. It really hampers the traditional mnb combo, going from a range spec- using cripple to gain the major expedition to actually utilize Soul harvest... that combo, that playstyle... absolutely set mnb apart from other mag builds.
I don’t understand why the need to nerf this. It forces you into running a **** gap closer to pull off the same combo. That major expedition didn’t make the class OP. It allowed the class to be different from every other spec.
Now if you wanted to do the same cripple combo you have to waste an additional GCD on Rat. Cuz NO ONE IS GONNA RUN PATH AS A DD.
It’s limiting. Cripple allowed me to stay on top of Rolly Polly builds. Impossible now wasting extra recourses between a gap closer and a mobility skill.
Give cripple back that expedition. Let debilitate keep the minor magic steal.7 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a nice buff on certain builds, particularly if you have a lot of room to move around.I personally think I should stay because the speed as flavor and helps you stay on your opponent if they try and move around a lot.
But I feel like this was overlooked when they were normalizing speed buffs a few patches ago. And this bonus loses its shine if you're in close quarters or dueling, and becomes completely useless if you decide to run Dark Cloak over Shadowy Disguise.
In my opinion, there are better ways to pick up speed bonuses. Melee Magblades only really have 3 melee skills available in our class lines: Lotus Fan, Sap Essence, and Concealed Weapon. I'd like to see Concealed Weapon lose the utility, and pick up something more in line with what it is - a single-target primary damage ability.
That's my two Septims. YMMV.
Like @NyassaV, think the speed boost from concealed is quite an important part of the skill. I actually think it is even more useful in close quarters and duels as it allows you to more easily control your spacing and position while cloaking, allowing you to more easily avoid damage or set up your next attack. I do agree though that perhaps concealed needs an additional bonus that applies if not stealthed because without shadowy disguise this skill is very bland.
For me the way melee magblade works is by staying highly mobile with with this speed plus the (soon to be lost) expedition from cripple as it allows you to be fast passively while still being on the offensive. Combined with abilities that let you go into (lotus fan) and out of (shadow image) melee range I find it makes a reasonably synergistic playstyle, where you move a lot to avoid damage, soften targets from range, close to melee to CC and kill, and have the ability to get out if needed.
The main problems I see are
1) They key buffs/utility for our class is spread across too many abilities so bar space is a real problem. This is because too many skills only perform a single function and you can't fit them all in. The recent push to remove redundancy has made this worse, for instance losing expedition off cripple I find a huge loss as now to get expedition we have to fit an extra ability in an already cramped bar.
2) A couple of abilities do not synergise at all. Primary example is Path, which is meant to be a movement buff but then limits you to a tiny area, the exact opposite of what you want to do.
3) The sort of playstyle I described above is effective if you can isolate one or two other players, but is almost completely ineffective against a group that stays together with AOEs. I'm actually ok with this as strategic target selection is a skill to be rewarded but I do see how it limits magblades performance in things like battlegrounds given the current meta.
6 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a nice buff on certain builds, particularly if you have a lot of room to move around.I personally think I should stay because the speed as flavor and helps you stay on your opponent if they try and move around a lot.
But I feel like this was overlooked when they were normalizing speed buffs a few patches ago. And this bonus loses its shine if you're in close quarters or dueling, and becomes completely useless if you decide to run Dark Cloak over Shadowy Disguise.
In my opinion, there are better ways to pick up speed bonuses. Melee Magblades only really have 3 melee skills available in our class lines: Lotus Fan, Sap Essence, and Concealed Weapon. I'd like to see Concealed Weapon lose the utility, and pick up something more in line with what it is - a single-target primary damage ability.
That's my two Septims. YMMV.
Like @NyassaV, think the speed boost from concealed is quite an important part of the skill. I actually think it is even more useful in close quarters and duels as it allows you to more easily control your spacing and position while cloaking, allowing you to more easily avoid damage or set up your next attack. I do agree though that perhaps concealed needs an additional bonus that applies if not stealthed because without shadowy disguise this skill is very bland.
For me the way melee magblade works is by staying highly mobile with with this speed plus the (soon to be lost) expedition from cripple as it allows you to be fast passively while still being on the offensive. Combined with abilities that let you go into (lotus fan) and out of (shadow image) melee range I find it makes a reasonably synergistic playstyle, where you move a lot to avoid damage, soften targets from range, close to melee to CC and kill, and have the ability to get out if needed.
The main problems I see are
1) They key buffs/utility for our class is spread across too many abilities so bar space is a real problem. This is because too many skills only perform a single function and you can't fit them all in. The recent push to remove redundancy has made this worse, for instance losing expedition off cripple I find a huge loss as now to get expedition we have to fit an extra ability in an already cramped bar.
2) A couple of abilities do not synergise at all. Primary example is Path, which is meant to be a movement buff but then limits you to a tiny area, the exact opposite of what you want to do.
3) The sort of playstyle I described above is effective if you can isolate one or two other players, but is almost completely ineffective against a group that stays together with AOEs. I'm actually ok with this as strategic target selection is a skill to be rewarded but I do see how it limits magblades performance in things like battlegrounds given the current meta.
This is it exactly and a good summary of magblade dps on live: good solo, poor small group/BGs. good cyrodiil.
I found softening up with melee kills works, just pure ganking doesn’t.Edited by Iskiab on May 11, 2019 3:12AMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
Shushu_H✭I agree with so many of you, but I have a bit of a different idea.
Have healthy offering do the same thing but for ally only. Also have the other morph instead of reduced cost be a slightly reduced heal, but for both caster and ally. Also just for this morph cost magicka, and drain it 5 seconds.
My reasoning: Healthy offering is stackable so it would give nightblade a reliable heal, and yea it would be slightly weaker than healthy offering but the skill hot heals so good anyway it would still be useful. Healthy offering is one of the best non ult hots in the game if not the best because its stackable. It only needs two stacks sometimes to be overly efficient on a target.Edited by Shushu_H on May 11, 2019 4:56AM0 -
milesrodneymcneely2_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Great point. I wouldn't mind seeing the base skill get the 25% stealthed speed boost, while seeing Surprise Attack/Concealed Weapon getting Minor Fracture/Breach or something like it. That way, folks who use Dark Cloak (or don't slot the skill at all) still aren't losing out on too much functionality.ExistingRug61 wrote: »Like @NyassaV, think the speed boost from concealed is quite an important part of the skill. I actually think it is even more useful in close quarters and duels as it allows you to more easily control your spacing and position while cloaking, allowing you to more easily avoid damage or set up your next attack. I do agree though that perhaps concealed needs an additional bonus that applies if not stealthed because without shadowy disguise this skill is very bland.
Spot on!The main problems I see are
1) They key buffs/utility for our class is spread across too many abilities so bar space is a real problem. This is because too many skills only perform a single function and you can't fit them all in. The recent push to remove redundancy has made this worse, for instance losing expedition off cripple I find a huge loss as now to get expedition we have to fit an extra ability in an already cramped bar.
2) A couple of abilities do not synergise at all. Primary example is Path, which is meant to be a movement buff but then limits you to a tiny area, the exact opposite of what you want to do.
3) The sort of playstyle I described above is effective if you can isolate one or two other players, but is almost completely ineffective against a group that stays together with AOEs. I'm actually ok with this as strategic target selection is a skill to be rewarded but I do see how it limits magblades performance in things like battlegrounds given the current meta.0 -
fred4✭✭✭✭✭
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ABSOLUTELY NOT, NO WAY!!!milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »I main a melee MagBlade and I think Concealed Weapon needs a complete overhaul.
I would eagerly trade in the stealthed speed boost for Minor Breach, a cost reduction, or a small DoT that applies Minor Stamina Steal while it ticks.
I also main a melee magblade. I am constantly in and out of cloak for the speed boost and the opportunity to stun and crit. I stack additional speed (Steed, Swift). The moment I do not stack the additional speed, I can no longer keep up with medium armor builds in a melee fight and my Concealed attacks become ineffective, and also Zaan, because I don't actually hit people. In terms of defense, if I am not faster, in cloak, than your average stamsorc, I am screwed.
Let me repeat that: The speed buff on Concealed is one of the VERY BEST THINGS ABOUT MELEE MAGBLADE. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH IT!!!
You can argue for the use of RAT, but in reality Skooma Smuggler is already one of my set options. I would MUCH RATHER stack speed in cloak than have more mitigation or, if asked whether to trade the speed for more consistent healing, I would still stack speed, because that is what I love AND it is effective. It is not merely effective in combat and when defending, it is also about quality of life, your ability to move in and around a keep in cloak and getting to where you want to be fast, without being hassled by NPCs.4 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Maybe the Caluurion gank Builds could be toned down a bit as well then.
Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.1 -
fred4✭✭✭✭✭
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I agree with all you've said. I also agree on this point, however the longer I play melee magblade, the more I realise it's not completely true. Yes, in general I look for players that have strayed from their group, if only for a few seconds. Yes, in general this is something I have to do, because if I jump into the zerg, I'm dead. Yes, this is why I like my speed, as it allows me to take up opportunities quickly and attack such players. Sometimes they run off to buff up and recover resources and they are vulnerable. This is the kind of target a magblade can take advantage of, even if they are tanky players. However there are a couple of things you can do, even when you are fighting tightly organised groups:3) The sort of playstyle I described above is effective if you can isolate one or two other players, but is almost completely ineffective against a group that stays together with AOEs. I'm actually ok with this as strategic target selection is a skill to be rewarded but I do see how it limits magblades performance in things like battlegrounds given the current meta.
(1) A group of tightly organised DK small-scalers DON'T actually do that much damage. I am feeling more and more comfortable running into them in tower fights. Not alone, but when the numbers are even. I have been killed by a single one, due to underestimating him. I have also defended against two of them and gotten away, one of them a warden unloading his full Dizzy / Subterranean / DB combo on me.
I run a lot of active defense. Dampen, Healing Ward, Fear, Light's Champion. The thing is, a group of tanky 1vXers, or a group of potatoes, can actually be less dangerous than a single stamblade or magsorc running a full duelling spec. The latter are able to achieve so much burst, they can hit through my shields and then some in 1 second. If such players run a detect potion, they will basically win against me, because I'm neither tanky nor magicka stacking for better shields. This is the paradox. It just goes to show the huge spread in power to defense ratio that builds can have and the discrepancy between building for duels vs open world. I think melee magblade (with Caluu and Zaan) works very well in open world, but not in duels. At least my build, which is specced into speed and sustain, doesn't work well in duels. Not just defensively. Caluu and Zaan only proc now and again, while the remainder of my attacks are weak. It doesn't add up to good pressure against competent players in a duel, nor is the burst as strong as that from other builds. Specifically stamblades currently have higher burst than a Caluu + Zaan ganker while also having better sustained pressure.
(2) Don't try to do too much too quickly. I love those fights in front of keep gates where zergs don't move in unison, but they disintegrate a little bit. You can absolutely try and burst people in the middle of those fights and, if you move around a lot inbetween such attempts, it takes players a few seconds to cop on where you are now and for multiple players to focus you. You can strafe right through the middle of a brawl, speculatively hitting people, only to cloak within the next second. At the very least you build ultimate that way. At best you get a Zaan proc and you see no one else is paying attention. Then you can hit the target a few more times and possibly kill them.
(3) Even in heavy lag, there is something about cloak - or the repetition of any single skill - that makes it still work. Furthermore, the game is just so broken in lag that AOE frequently doesn't work properly. I have cloaked into and through a highly organised group, the type that throws Caltrops everywhere and spams AOE and ultimates, and come out the other side completely unscathed, now behind them. In those cases you're best off spamming cloak. It's inconsistent and I would only recommend it in emergency. You're more likely to get killed, but the more you explore such marginal situations, the more successful you will become as a melee magblade.
By the way, I mostly play CP open world and can only speak to my encounters there. I do not play BGs.Edited by fred4 on May 11, 2019 10:54AM1 -
Joosef_Kivikilpi✭✭✭✭milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »I main a melee MagBlade and I think Concealed Weapon needs a complete overhaul.
I would eagerly trade in the stealthed speed boost for Minor Breach, a cost reduction, or a small DoT that applies Minor Stamina Steal while it ticks.
Don't get me wrong, the changes to Lotus Fan are a nice buff for melee MagBlades, but we need our single-target spammable to mesh with our kit better.
No thank you in the Concealed Weapon stealth speed being removed. That is essential to many Mageblades' Evasion or Escape with Cloak. Channeled Acceleration with Concealed Weapon and there Swift jewelry... There is no going back after it.Edited by Joosef_Kivikilpi on May 11, 2019 1:37PM3 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Btw, just thought I’d throw this out there. Scooma Smuggler is up on the golden vendor this weekend. I’m definitely going to give it a spin with the changes to double take: double take to peel snares and get major evasion combined with scooma smuggler looks like it will be a good magblade combo.
Agreed too about the speed being awesome on concealed. Best thing to do if you use dark cloak is drop concealed completely and use sap or pulsar as your spammable. Or better yet, use sap for melee and elemental ring for ranged with the BRP staff.Edited by Iskiab on May 11, 2019 1:40PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
Joosef_Kivikilpi✭✭✭✭Btw, just thought I’d throw this out there. Scooma Smuggler is up on the golden vendor this weekend. I’m definitely going to give it a spin with the changes to double take: double take to peel snares and get major evasion combined with scooma smuggler looks like it will be a good magblade combo.
You and I are off the same mind. Skooma Smuggler + Alchemist with two infused Potion cooldowns Glyphs = 100% uptime on speed and 50% uptime on alchemist. If Argonian, great sustain as well.Edited by Joosef_Kivikilpi on May 11, 2019 1:36PM0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭How is Soul Harvest bad? lt hits like a truck, applies major defile, increases damage done by 20%, and is one of the very few ultimates not mitigated by evasion. When it wasn't able to be dodged, it was severely overpowered. It's used across the board in all types of builds: bombing, open-world, and ganking. How could anyone be so unsatisfied with a skill?
Because it doesn't work well with the magblade kit. If you gave soul harvest to, lets say a mag dk or magplar it would be fantastic and everybody would use it. But for magblades who are effectively a purely ranged kit it just doesn't synergise well.
I don’t know if I’d say magblades are a pure ranged kit, at least not in pvp. Everything that’s ranged a magblade can do is a projectile so terrible in pvp. That’s why a lot of magblade pvpers move to melee.
Hybrid melee ranged might work post patch, I’m not sure.
I approached pvp at first as a dps, ended up in some weird crushing shock spamming spec. It was terrible, that’s when I dropped magblade damage for healing.
That's the point, it feels like ZOS is trying to make this kit into some weird melee / ranged hybrid which at the moment is not working well at all. Like what is the identity of a magicka nightblade? I just don't understand. And yeah I agree they make good healers but outside of that I just don't see what a magicka nightblade can do which another class can't do better.
I don’t think there’s supposed to be an identity like you say. The game’s premise is play how you want.
I like having fun, to me that means winning because winning’s fun, so I’ll gravitate towards the best spec for the class whatever it is. If anything the defining things for NB is cloak, that’s about it.
Ranged/melee hybrids could work, IDK. There are some nice tools coming up for it. As a magblade dps I’d try ranged first, melee to finish, shade out if it gets too hot. As ranged abilities go the only real hard hitter is impale, it’s great for sorcs who try to shield through being low health and will become usable against DKs. The execute bonus is enough that DKs low health blocking with wings up will still feel it.
No, there is supposed to be an identity. Magblade's "identity" was being a more selfish class, good self heals decent off heals. the "play how you want" aspect should have just been a possibility achieved by putting in the time and effort implementing a bit of creativity on the players part.
ZoS trying to make it easier for classes to play DPS, tank or healer is kinda what's harming the classes right now, because there are really no unique builds anymore.Edited by Lucky28 on May 11, 2019 1:53PMInvictus2 -
Irylia✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Iskiab
MagBlade has worse sustain than stamplar. I’ll just leave you with that as it’s not a game breaking issue.
As for the mitigation. Having little mitigation is a purposeful short coming of the class. Much like how a mDK might have issue in full out open world fights, magblade may lack mitigation.
So while what you say is correct in that they don’t have a ton of mitigation, that is not an issue for the class.
Thing is you guys are asking for the class to be a dead end spec that doesn’t work.
Right now sure there are newer pvpers who don’t run defense so you can gank people, but in the more experienced ranks magblades are seen as absolutely terrible. I’ve only been successfully ganked once in the past 3-4 months by any NB, and that’s when I was testing out a new spec. When you’re up against people with enough mitigation ganking just doesn’t work.
Adding more sustain will do little for your playstyle. Adding self healing will do very little for your playstyle if you don’t pair it enough defense that you survive longer then two GCDs, and magblade gankers generally don’t and are glass canons.
Mitigation will allow magblades to survive long enough for self healing to take effect. If you’re a glass canon with essentially 0 mitigation 15% is substantial and will help a ton more then anything else.
https://youtu.be/g7DHQ10x9PM 0 -
fred4✭✭✭✭✭
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This. Remember the Summerset Swift meta? Everyone hopped onto that bandwagon after a while, because it worked. When Swift was nerfed, everyone went off it again. Well, it still works for melee magblade. It has always worked, tbh, and Skooma Smuggler was always a good set for such builds.Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »I main a melee MagBlade and I think Concealed Weapon needs a complete overhaul.
I would eagerly trade in the stealthed speed boost for Minor Breach, a cost reduction, or a small DoT that applies Minor Stamina Steal while it ticks.
Don't get me wrong, the changes to Lotus Fan are a nice buff for melee MagBlades, but we need our single-target spammable to mesh with our kit better.
No thank you in the Concealed Weapon stealth speed being removed. That is essential to many Mageblades' Evasion or Escape with Cloak. Channeled Acceleration with Concealed Weapon and there Swift jewelry... There is no going back after it.
Aside from that, the speed in cloak is something that separates the melee magblade playstyle from other magblades and from stamblades. It has to stay. IMO this is what build variety is all about. And just to be clear: I mean it has to stay outside the major / minor system, e.g. it must stack. It is only 25%. Medium armor characters can sprint for 40%. That is something magicka characters do not really do and why it's needed to increase the viability of melee magblade when playing against stamina. Think about the other two melee magicka classes. Templar puts a heavy snare on targets with every hit of their spammable. DK is built around locking people down with talons and 2-stage Fossilize. The speed buff on Concealed is part of magblade's way to make the melee playstyle viable on that class.3 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Iskiab
MagBlade has worse sustain than stamplar. I’ll just leave you with that as it’s not a game breaking issue.
As for the mitigation. Having little mitigation is a purposeful short coming of the class. Much like how a mDK might have issue in full out open world fights, magblade may lack mitigation.
So while what you say is correct in that they don’t have a ton of mitigation, that is not an issue for the class.
Thing is you guys are asking for the class to be a dead end spec that doesn’t work.
Right now sure there are newer pvpers who don’t run defense so you can gank people, but in the more experienced ranks magblades are seen as absolutely terrible. I’ve only been successfully ganked once in the past 3-4 months by any NB, and that’s when I was testing out a new spec. When you’re up against people with enough mitigation ganking just doesn’t work.
Adding more sustain will do little for your playstyle. Adding self healing will do very little for your playstyle if you don’t pair it enough defense that you survive longer then two GCDs, and magblade gankers generally don’t and are glass canons.
Mitigation will allow magblades to survive long enough for self healing to take effect. If you’re a glass canon with essentially 0 mitigation 15% is substantial and will help a ton more then anything else.https://youtu.be/g7DHQ10x9PM
Yea, I’ve seen goblin sama in some BGs. That wasn’t the spec he was playing. I didn’t even realize he was a magblade, must have been using dark cloak.Edited by Iskiab on May 11, 2019 4:18PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0