Uppercut

Czirne

Uppercut and its morphs needs little tweaking before going live. I understand the logic behind the change, problem is it isn't really working that way. Noone is using it in pve, where this change would make sence(probably), but in pvp there is not such a thing like "using several uppercuts in quick succession". It might be the case with snipe and dark flare, because they both are ranged abilities and there is a possibility to cast them in quick succession, but this does not apply to uppercut.

Uppercut is a melee casted ability, very risky to use, and its all about that one big hit creating an opportunity to kill your target. As it is now on live, its more about waiting to your opponent to make a mistake a get himself hit by it, and punish that mistake. Its very easy to avoid, and you probably miss a lot of uppercut before you land the one hit that makes difference. You could say its high risk, high reward ability (although with current pvp lag is more high risk, average reward ability), and change you are planning to do makes it high risk, low reward ability and effectively kills uppercut playstyle. I know its dying playstyle anyway and less and less people are using it, and that is one more reason to rather examine and rework that skill, not nerfing it.

Even now uppercut and it morphs are widely considered bad, weak skills, and reducing its damage while gaining virtualy nothing in exchange does not make it better. If you really want to reduce the damage of uppercut, I believe reducing cast time as well is the right way to go. It does make uppercut easier to land while not hitting as hard. You already buffing flurry damage to be on pair with other "melee spammables", why not reduce uppercut cast time to 0,6 sec and reduce damage accordingly to make this skill somewhat useful? Because if the proposed change goes live, people just take Masters 2H and use cleave instead, with no cast time, AoE cone and same damage with bleed/shield instead of stun.

Elwendryll

I use Wrecking Blow as a spammable in PVE (StamSorc) . I'm not especially good but I can pull out 40k dps on live, I take part in trials with that. I actually perform better with it than DW, because it's my play style. And well. It was just to say that :
1. People use it in pve, as a spammable.
2. It's viable.

So, do whatever you want with the other morph, but Wrecking Blow is perfectly fine in PVE.

Own

Dizzy just needs to be sped up to .7-.8 seconds as a starting point to help land against skilled players. Or just to land it at all. Also maybe if it wasn't one of the few abilities that can get stuck in the casting animation during lag causing a 3 second cast time that would be great too.

in the 1 second cast time you can get hit by 2 instant cast abilities before the CC applies.

Crixus8000

Well said. I have used dizzy ever since I started really and it's very frustrating to have it ruined by this change. If they go through with this then it's going to be a terrible ability, not that it's even that good now.

I don't want it easier to land, I don't care if it has counterplay, I just want it to hit hard like the skill is supposed to do, it certainly does not need a damn nerf.

usmcjdking

The skill itself is a tad bit smoother on PTS.

But it's pretty weak now.

LiquidPony

They should've done what people were actually suggesting and tweaked the cast time/damage of Wrecking Blow (for use as a PvE spammable) but left Dizzying Swing alone (for use as a PvP CC/burst).

Perhaps it wasn't possible to adjust their behavior separately. Hard to say.

But I disagree with the idea that "no one" is using Wrecking Blow in PvE. I use it on my stamsorc, and especially with the new changes it works really well. This has really helped even the gap between 2H/DW DPS on some builds.

Czirne

LiquidPony wrote: »

They should've done what people were actually suggesting and tweaked the cast time/damage of Wrecking Blow (for use as a PvE spammable) but left Dizzying Swing alone (for use as a PvP CC/burst).

Perhaps it wasn't possible to adjust their behavior separately. Hard to say.

But I disagree with the idea that "no one" is using Wrecking Blow in PvE. I use it on my stamsorc, and especially with the new changes it works really well. This has really helped even the gap between 2H/DW DPS on some builds.

Elwendryll wrote: »

I use Wrecking Blow as a spammable in PVE (StamSorc) . I'm not especially good but I can pull out 40k dps on live, I take part in trials with that. I actually perform better with it than DW, because it's my play style. And well. It was just to say that :
1. People use it in pve, as a spammable.
2. It's viable.

So, do whatever you want with the other morph, but Wrecking Blow is perfectly fine in PVE.

Allright, i stand corrected. I really thought very few people are using uppercut in pve, even less people than in pvp. Anyway, how is the proposed change from pve perspective?

spacebandit

I think the range needs increased on all 2h. I very clearly remember running after someone spamming uppercut and being close enough for it to go off but too far away for it to actually land.

LiquidPony

Czirne wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

They should've done what people were actually suggesting and tweaked the cast time/damage of Wrecking Blow (for use as a PvE spammable) but left Dizzying Swing alone (for use as a PvP CC/burst).

Perhaps it wasn't possible to adjust their behavior separately. Hard to say.

But I disagree with the idea that "no one" is using Wrecking Blow in PvE. I use it on my stamsorc, and especially with the new changes it works really well. This has really helped even the gap between 2H/DW DPS on some builds.

Elwendryll wrote: »

I use Wrecking Blow as a spammable in PVE (StamSorc) . I'm not especially good but I can pull out 40k dps on live, I take part in trials with that. I actually perform better with it than DW, because it's my play style. And well. It was just to say that :
1. People use it in pve, as a spammable.
2. It's viable.

So, do whatever you want with the other morph, but Wrecking Blow is perfectly fine in PVE.

Allright, i stand corrected. I really thought very few people are using uppercut in pve, even less people than in pvp. Anyway, how is the proposed change from pve perspective?

2H works great as a PvE weapon. Wrecking Blow is a very good spammable now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65Gn7yxL4AE

Beffagorn

There's no point in using Wrecking Blow in pve, at least on live.

Crushing Weapon is superior to it.

It's cheaper, it deals more damage, heals you and gives you access to a 5k shield.

Next patch, Uppercut can officially be considered dead for pvp, only used in some underperforming trash tier pve builds.

LiquidPony

Beffagorn wrote: »

There's no point in using Wrecking Blow in pve, at least on live.

Crushing Weapon is superior to it.

It's cheaper, it deals more damage, heals you and gives you access to a 5k shield.

Next patch, Uppercut can officially be considered dead for pvp, only used in some underperforming trash tier pve builds.

lol no

Crushing Weapon most certainly does not do more damage than Wrecking Blow on live. It's not even close. Wrecking Blow hits like a truck.

On live, my tooltip numbers (buffed with Major Brutality) on my stamsorc are ...

Wrecking Blow: 15816 + Empower on next light attack
Crushing Weapon: 9813 + Spell Orb after 5 hits

Bladerunner1

So does it still take 1.3+ seconds to weave wrecking blow between light attacks on the PTS during prime time?

Beffagorn

LiquidPony wrote: »

On live, my tooltip numbers (buffed with Major Brutality) on my stamsorc are ...

Wrecking Blow: 15816 + Empower on next light attack
Crushing Weapon: 9813 + Spell Orb after 5 hits

Tooltip damage isn't everything.

You can try it and you'll see that using Crushing Weapon leads to a higher dps than Wrecking Blow.

Since everyone is obsessed with guides and everything streamers say these days, even Alcast's pve stamdk build uses Crushing Weapon and not Wrecking Blow.

J18696

The problem with this skill on live is that it's clunky and unreliable to consistently land hits in PvP the amount of people using this skill in a serious pve dps build is probably 0 the nerf to dmg was entirely unjustified

TheYKcid

Ridiculous that this issue still hasn't received an official response.

DisgracefulMind

TheYKcid wrote: »

Ridiculous that this issue still hasn't received an official response.

Why would it with their NB focus?

Sheuib

It’s now a good CC with moderate damage. Treat it as such and use a different spammable.

Czirne

Sheuib wrote: »

It’s now a good CC with moderate damage. Treat it as such and use a different spammable.

That's the problem tho. Stamsorc and stamDK have very limited choices of spammables already. Majority of stamsorcs using blood craze now.

Blood craze. DoT skill. As a spammable. It says a lot when best spammable for your class is a DoT skill.
Same with stamDKs, lot of them is using Venomous claw. Another DoT skill.

And ZoS response to this? lets take subpar spammable and reduce damage on it.... I dont get it.

DisgracefulMind

Sheuib wrote: »

It’s now a good CC with moderate damage. Treat it as such and use a different spammable.

lol ok

TheYKcid

Sheuib wrote: »

It’s now a good CC with moderate damage. Treat it as such and use a different spammable.

A good CC? LMAO mate. Where even to begin...

You do realise the cast time itself didn't get reduced in any way, right?

It is exactly as easy to disjoint or block vs. live. All the changes accomplished is giving it less payoff than ever before.

If only it were a good CC, or a good spammable, or a good but risky burst tool.

It's now none of the above.

artal

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Why would it with their NB focus?

Maybe we need to try different route than.

Dear Zos, I'm poor nb and dizzy swing is the only skill that is allowing me to kill other superior classes. Pleas revert this change back so I can go and have chance to kill opponents in pvp.

Sincerely yours NB

But seriously I tried it on pts, same build i use on live stam sorc and really feel difference, its already struggle on live vs any decent player and not sure how viable will it be after this change. I just wonder if this gimped pvp playstyle really deserve nerf like this

ilcavallo

Czirne wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

It’s now a good CC with moderate damage. Treat it as such and use a different spammable.

That's the problem tho. Stamsorc and stamDK have very limited choices of spammables already. Majority of stamsorcs using blood craze now.

Blood craze. DoT skill. As a spammable. It says a lot when best spammable for your class is a DoT skill.
Same with stamDKs, lot of them is using Venomous claw. Another DoT skill.

And ZoS response to this? lets take subpar spammable and reduce damage on it.... I dont get it.

Yeah and hidden blade from DW is losing its snare.

Beffagorn

Sheuib wrote: »

It’s now a good CC with moderate damage. Treat it as such and use a different spammable.

*laughs in stamdk and stamsorc*

Vajrak

Beffagorn wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

On live, my tooltip numbers (buffed with Major Brutality) on my stamsorc are ...

Wrecking Blow: 15816 + Empower on next light attack
Crushing Weapon: 9813 + Spell Orb after 5 hits

Tooltip damage isn't everything.

You can try it and you'll see that using Crushing Weapon leads to a higher dps than Wrecking Blow.

Since everyone is obsessed with guides and everything streamers say these days, even Alcast's pve stamdk build uses Crushing Weapon and not Wrecking Blow.

If you bother looking through, Alcast's builds for each and every class are virtually identical. That should tell you that the skills being utilized are overperforming, and need to be reevaluated heavily.

Alcast Stamina Builds:
12 skills (10+2 ults)
Every build uses
1-Endless hail 2-Razor caltrops 3-Rearming trap 4-Poison injection 5-Flawless Dawnbreaker 6-Resolving Vigor(exception: Sorc has Bound Armaments as an optional instead of vigor+crit surge)

DW: Rending Slashes, 2H: Crushing Weapon

so 1 ult, and 6 of 10 skills utilized consistently -- leaves you one optional ult (expect to see the bow ult if not a utility ult), and 4 class skills to utilize, between both bars.

Also expect to see Relequen and Velidreth on every build.

I respect Alcast for his mechanical ability, not his builds, because...what build? Gear is virtually identical, weaves are virtually identical, so you flip around some class skills for relevant passives, and call it good.

Make Uppercut into an actual spammable, then Wrecking remove the cast time, leave a cast time on Dizzying --- and maybe it'll do as desired without falling on the same cookie cut.

eso_lags

Sheuib wrote: »

It’s now a good CC with moderate damage. Treat it as such and use a different spammable.

What spammable does a stam sorc have? Right, none.

Zos needs to start balancing this game around performance. This ability is *** in pvp without lag, and since it is usual lagging in pvp that makes it pretty much unusable. Maybe a 1/15 success rate in lag. I don't even bother using it most off thee time, just heavy DB execute.

This is a bad change plain and simple. Thh people making changes need to play the game to understand the game.

Crixus8000

Sheuib wrote: »

It’s now a good CC with moderate damage. Treat it as such and use a different spammable.

Sure I will just pick another spammable from the huge selection my stamsorc has. Tbh the only choice is going snb for heroic/ransack now, quite sad how so many stam builds are forced into this playstyle, and I don't actually like it for stamsorc outside of dueling. Dizzy was always my best choice and now it's getting gutted for no reason. I really hope they revert it back but they are on a nerfing streak atm and I don't expect them to stop.

Vajrak

eso_lags wrote: »

Sheuib wrote: »

It’s now a good CC with moderate damage. Treat it as such and use a different spammable.

What spammable does a stam sorc have? Right, none.

Zos needs to start balancing this game around performance. This ability is *** in pvp without lag, and since it is usual lagging in pvp that makes it pretty much unusable. Maybe a 1/15 success rate in lag. I don't even bother using it most off thee time, just heavy DB execute.

This is a bad change plain and simple. Thh people making changes need to play the game to understand the game.

Cleave and it's morphs, since it is a Direct Damage, with either Bleed or a Shield, depending on which you need. Works well with the idea of stam-sorc keeping their target next to them for the hurricane. Bonus points if you use Defensive Rune for that stun and use that window to pop 'em in the face.

Hyzock

Making the cast time lower than exactly 1 second would actually be a nerf because the cast time and the global cooldown of abilities are exactly 1 second. For example, reducing the cast time to 0.7s would mean you still have to wait 0.3s before using your next ability. This means that there would be no dps increase. It would make the ability slightly easier to land in pvp but it would also give your opponent 0.3s to react after getting hit with it. IMO the only simple way to buff dizzying swing is a damage increase but that would solve far from all the dizzying swing issues. What would make dizzying swing really shine is a shift in the pvp meta towards less tanky builds because the playstyle revolves around 1 shots, and a change in the targeting system (which i doubt will ever happen) where tab-targeting system would consistently make you hit the tab-targeted player. The high risk of trying to land dizzying swing is pointless if you simply hit another target than intended.

ProzTh3Almighty

If they could fix Crushing Weapon an have it weave correctly an stop being so clunky then they can have DS...

Xogath

Here's the solution for the Uppercut fiasco.

1. Wrecking Blow - remove the cast time, adjust the damage, buff the Light Attack Empower to 50% (or more; 75% would be great) to compensate for the lower skill damage. It's now a viable PvE spammable.
2. Dizzying Swing - retain the cast time, give it back some damage. Retain the CC it provides. Since this morph is strictly used in PvP, the cast time makes sense considering it deals heavy damage AND CCs.

Boom, done. Everyone happy. PvP users have their high-risk-high-reward ability, and PvE users have a perfectly acceptable spammable for those classes that lack a good one and don't want to use Dual Wield. On top of that, the boosted Empower promotes weaving.

I would also be in favor of an animation tweak for Crushing Weapon to make it less clunky to use.

Czirne

Lets be honnest, there will be no more changes to Uppercut in Elsweyr. Hopefuly next DLC.