Unhappy with Magika Necro :(

drakeos99

So heard magika necro gonna bad class due to same as magden while stam necro gonna be bis for end game stuff fix this please

ecru

gonna quote my post from a different thread:

ecru wrote: »

Xogath wrote: »

How are Magicka Necromancers in a bad spot?

I know it's a couple weeks old, so changes have been made, but.. have you seen this? (Mag Necro 116k parse)

116k is a massive step ahead of everything else on the PTS, even Stamina Necromancers. The only parse I've seen come close to that was still 16k below it (Stamina Necro), and everything below that was WELL below it to the tune of 15-20k.

I wouldn't exactly call that a bad spot.

Bugs aside ('cause those do need fixed), I'd say Magicka Necros are just fine unless they've seen severe nerfs since that video, and I'm not sure they have.

They have seen severe nerfs since that video, which would be pretty easy to verify if you had actually been on PTS. Mag Necro isn't in a great spot right now not just due to bugs, but due to how unreliable blastbones is as a source of dps when not standing directly in melee, and how unreliable mystic siphon is since it both isn't hitting bosses in sunspire (which probably means it isn't hitting bosses in other trials/dungeons too), and you don't have a lot of control over where it comes from/who it hits.

Notice how no one is posting parses after pets stopped critting 100% of the time? I'd probably place Mag Necro behind all other magicka DPS at the moment, probably a good 10% behind petsorc, and a decent parse requires an absolute perfect rotation. DPS is just really, really mediocre until you hit execute, which puts it in a weird spot where you need bloodthirsty jewelry to hit good numbers during execute, but this also hurts your dps before execute, so without a good execute parse with bloodthirsty jewelry, your parses are going to be very bad.

I'm not really sure what's going on with zos as we've seen very little feedback on their end about actual numbers or abilities we rely on not even hitting bosses, but don't expect to see everyone and their dog rerolling mag necro because it pulls big numbers--it doesn't. If you want top numbers right now, you're playing a magsorc this patch and during Elseweyr, unless something changes in the next few weeks.

tl;dr it isn't looking good at the moment. It's not bad, but it's not good either. I like playing it, but a lot of things don't work, or if they do they're unreliable. No other classes have skills as part of their main rotation that may or may not hit a boss, or skills that take twice as long to land if you're at range instead of melee. IMO inside of melee range (blastbones every 3rd gcd) mag necro should probably pull the highest magicka dps due to how much of a part of your damage blastbones is. When you can only cast one blastbones every 4th gcd or god forbid 5th gcd, your dps sinks.

For players who haven't been on PTS yet, imagine if your nightblade bow proc fired every 6th gcd at medium range or 7th gcd at max range, and you can kind of understand the situation mag necro is in. If it were actually very very good in melee range it wouldn't be a big issue, but it isn't.

There are some things I really miss coming from magblade, one being some kind of passive healing or mobility while doing dps, but necro has zero mobility on anything and for pretty much any self heals, you must slot a heal and actively use it. No passive heals at a slight dps loss like Funnel Health or Power Surge, no healing pet that also does substantial damage like Twilight Matriarch, etc.

BalticBlues

MagDen and MacNecro are very similar,
sharing similar skills and similar shortcomings, examples:

- Skull mimics Cliff Racer, BlastBones mimics Fissure, ...
- Skill micromanagement
- No spammable Execute
Is it worth playing even a second mag class which cannot compete?

ZOS, you wanted to avoid mistakes made with MagDens... but didn't you even copy them?
For a spammable Execute, Warden and Necro players must play Stam. THIS SUCKS.

ZOS, please give MagNecros at least a spammable Execute.
If you do not want it to be a class-skill, you could redesign DESTRO-PULSAR as an Execute,
so that Magplayers also have a close-range-execute as Stamplayers have.

Wing

this is actually a result of the "any class can do anything" mantra that become more of a driving force in class and skill design as the game went on.

as much as they don't want to admit it, original classes were all meant to fulfil a specific role, DK tank, Sorc magicka dps, NB stam dps, Templar healer.

after the initial wave and a change in staff and direction we got a more solid "any class can do anything" thus all classes created after initial release ( warden and necro) are more solidly in the camp of mediocre at everything and not especially good at anything.

to be honest necro seems even worse off, a lot of its abilities come with weird quirks or effects that you have to play around. that inherently makes it harder to play in stressful or unpredictable situations compared to the original classes, that have classic skill design of *cost = effect*

darkblue5

Wing wrote: »

this is actually a result of the "any class can do anything" mantra that become more of a driving force in class and skill design as the game went on.

as much as they don't want to admit it, original classes were all meant to fulfil a specific role, DK tank, Sorc magicka dps, NB stam dps, Templar healer.

after the initial wave and a change in staff and direction we got a more solid "any class can do anything" thus all classes created after initial release ( warden and necro) are more solidly in the camp of mediocre at everything and not especially good at anything.

to be honest necro seems even worse off, a lot of its abilities come with weird quirks or effects that you have to play around. that inherently makes it harder to play in stressful or unpredictable situations compared to the original classes, that have classic skill design of *cost = effect*

And all that was changed pretty fast because that was boring after ZOS dealt with many of the broken broken things with the game after launch. The initial design was pretty bad tbh and it is good things have changed. Necro coming in great for stamina and great as healers is pretty powerful. I personally like situations where there is tension in abilities and building so it isn't just more of X means more of Y meaning more winning. Right now probably the most bare bones skill to output dps is stamsorc and stamdk during heavy weave meta with dragonbones playing those as dps was kind of boring and the best example of needing some mechanical interest in class specs. Necro offers that for sure.

Making mag necro work with blast bones in PvE and PvP sounds like a bit of a nightmare tbh. The best solution would be multiple blastbones for PvE but that'd be way too much in PvP. Magcro might be waiting for a melee mag dps weapon funnily enough.

Narvuntien

Honestly, the Scythe should be an execute that's is thematically/metaphorically how they work. It should be similar to how killer blade works in that its melee then turns into melee stam morph and ranged Magicka morph.

it costs quite a bit and is a heal so its not going to be broken as a execute perhaps this makes it very strong in PVP but I kind of think thats okay,

drakeos99

Mhmm ZOS have few more weeks to FIX these bugs or else people will demanding refunds due to broken class like MagDEN I was so hyped to able to play as magika spec but forced to go stamina which too hard for me to do so PLEASE fix this class (Mag Necro) before you release the game

Caligamy_ESO

Can't take any post serious that uses the Iron Atronach as its "game breaking" dps parse. That parse is also done when the Iron Atronach was bugged, and stalking blastbones was bugged to do 100% crits.

Cellentel

A fundamental issue with the current implementation of the Magicka Necromancer is the same issue that plagues the Magicka Warden: all the dots are different lengths, so playing it requires a complicated dynamic rotation. For the necromancer, it is even more complicated because certain skills require corpses, and so you have to keep track of dot expiration and corpse availability.

A complicated rotation is fine if it allows for higher dps. Right now, though, you can get more dps with a much simpler rotation on a magsorc or magplar, so there isn't a lot of point.

BluntLightsaber

I was so excited to be playing the Magicka Necromancer when the PTS first hit, there is a huge amount of potential in the class to be fun and fresh, it seemed to be hitting hard and although the pets were bugged to crit 100% it still seemed like it would be pretty powerful and bring something interesting to the table come Elsweyr.

That enthusiasm has slowly deteriorated after 3 patches with absolutely no big changes other than the reworking of a passive which is now bugged and makes a class with already clunky animations incredibly frustrating (for anyone wondering, spending 2/2 in the first passive in the damaging tree causes pets to consume a global cooldown when they expire causing you to constantly miss skills). The other change being to make blastbones even more inconsistent, resulting in a rotation that can fall out of rhythm and just doesn't feel good unless you're against a static dummy.

I will say that from testing against the 3 mil and the 21 mil dummies, part of the reason the magicka necromancer can feel underwhelming against the 3 mil is that it's optimal to hold onto the atro ulti until execute, resulting in only 1 ultimate useage per parse, which makes the first 75% relatively slow but execute an insane damage spike. Against the 21 mil ultimate useage can be fairly consistent throughout, resulting in a 7-9% uptime on Major Vulnerability in my parses, which will be great for groups, until you realise you could just bring a Stamina Necromancer instead

After all this I'd say the single biggest problem with the Magicka flavour of Necro is just that the rotation does not feel good (partially caused by playing on the PTS from Europe), it's inconsistent, the animations are janky, the skills often fail to fire (whether it's caused solely by a bug in the passive is a mystery as it hasn't been addressed in the patch notes despite being introduced more than 2 weeks ago, in the mean time Incap has changed twice) and it doesn't even bring enough to the table for that all to be worth it. I've never considered myself a whiner but I am genuinely super disappointed about this PTS cycle and how Necro has been iterated on.

This PTS cycle has felt like an advert for Elsweyr not a genuine test cycle. Summerset PTS was all hush hush, you had to have an invite to even view the forum subsection IIRC.

BaylorCorvette

Narvuntien wrote: »

Honestly, the Scythe should be an execute that's is thematically/metaphorically how they work. It should be similar to how killer blade works in that its melee then turns into melee stam morph and ranged Magicka morph.

it costs quite a bit and is a heal so its not going to be broken as a execute perhaps this makes it very strong in PVP but I kind of think thats okay,

Would be really awesome to have a class based execute on Necro and like you mention Scythe *could* work. I say could, because they would have to be careful with it being a conal execute, but I suppose if damage is similar to whirling blades it should be fine. I really like the scythe ability, just on looks alone. However, it's a pretty useless skill for anything other than a tank trying to off balance, and even then there are better ways..

Anhedonie

Yeah, turning Scythe into an execute would be not bad. I mean steel tornado is omnidirectional, not even in a cone.

Excelsus

I like the Necros crit based execute passive but it needs to also include increased crit damage to be worthwhile and mystic siphon needs some love. I worry Necro has too many game changing abilities which make it difficult to balance like self synergies, revive, major vulnerability... it could easily swing into op territory if it had higher numbers.

Tessitura

I thought that a dot execute would fit Necro better, maybe if Skull or Blastbones applied it, never liked the idea of scythe being the execute for magicka cause I am not sure how it would be made into a ranged one and I don't wanna be linchpinned into melee when magicka necro gets more damage from range.

iCaliban

Stam necro's have too many class skill morphs. No creativity left to mag necros

Tessitura

iCaliban wrote: »

Stam necro's have too many class skill morphs. No creativity left to mag necros

I Both agree and disagree with this. Stam did cut into magicka's ability options leaving stam with a overwhelming about of build options between their weapon choices and class morphs. Stam was never really given a class all its own, we never really got a actual warrior or hunter class, what we got was weapon skills. Now I want stam builds to get cool new skills to play with too, but there is a flaw in the game's core skill design that makes this opposed directly to magicka builds, and that's the weapon skills. Stam never got much to choose from in their class trees because it was expected that they would rely on the weapon skills. They get not one, not two, not even three, but FOUR weapon skill lines, while magicka get a whopping two weapons, one for dps and one fore healing, which made magicka builds rely on class skills. This kinda worked, it wasn't ideal for either build type, but it worked. Now, with stam cutting into magicka morphs more, the balance has been thrown off. Does that mean they should stop making stam morphs? I don't think so, I think they need to make more magicka weapon options, like dagger and focus, or spell tomes, or even new staff types, ( Though I would greatly prefer the spell tomes or focus options more. ) Just something to kill this old way of doing things without crushing one build type.

SomeDogsAreCops

Any class any role strikes again. This has been a cancer to the design of ESO combat since launch. Is it worth constantly having 2-3 classes in the gutter just so you can play some meme build in Vet. Every class should have a focused role and an off hand variant. EX: Dragonknight is tank focused with an off hand bruiser set up for trials and PVP.

ecru

Excelsus wrote: »

I like the Necros crit based execute passive but it needs to also include increased crit damage to be worthwhile and mystic siphon needs some love. I worry Necro has too many game changing abilities which make it difficult to balance like self synergies, revive, major vulnerability... it could easily swing into op territory if it had higher numbers.

Even the self synergy is a pain in the ass to use because you have to face your camera directly down to cast boneyard in a spot where you can activate it without moving, which isn't a fun or productive way to play. This is going to be especially bad for players who have their camera at the default "0" angle (I use 50) and default fov because you probably can't see a damn thing when at the correct camera angle in that situation.

I suggested just making the synergy available when you're inside of the edge of the aoe rather than directly in the center. Since it's only usable in the center if you're in melee range of a boss (recommended for mag or stam necro) you probably can't move into it if you cast at a reasonable camera angle since you'd be moving in front of the boss and in cleave range (zmaja, olms, etc). I posted about this weeks ago in the regular necro feedback thread but it seems like it wasn't noticed by the devs.

cpuScientist

MagNecro feels like a knock of MagDen, alot of healing thats not QUITE up to snuff with magPlars simplicity, and low dps that is very involved but ultimately yields poor results. The class on the mag side stinks. Only thing keeping it "interesting" is the Overtuned ultimates. Same in PvP all the damage of the class is tied to 1 skill, if it lands flush hoorah if it does not, try again, with no good stun to help setup the highly telegraphed and hard to land stun lol. Just mistakes repeated and no fix in sight for either. The stam is ok though, for the same reason a stamSorc is okay, weapon skill line is strong. Class help itself is meh no healing and reliant on blastbones, which in a 1v1 is better than shalk but in group is terrible...

drakeos99

Im so disappointed in this expansion and i don't see myself playing as magika build since they have ruined both of my fav class magden and also now mag necro

Savos_Saren

I can see people asking for Magcro Scythe to be an execute and, instead, ZOS will give it to the Stamcro. Even though stamina builds already have access to 3 different executes tied in with three different weapon abilities. (while magicka-based characters have no executes built into their weapon lines)

Hell, ZoS could do one of those reverse executes (ie: the Sorc passive) and make Hungry Scythe hit 10% harder for high health enemies.

Also, Grave Grasp and it's morphs need to do some damage. It feel very, very anticlimactic when using. It's downright boring.

iCaliban

Tessitura wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Stam necro's have too many class skill morphs. No creativity left to mag necros

I Both agree and disagree with this. Stam did cut into magicka's ability options leaving stam with a overwhelming about of build options between their weapon choices and class morphs. Stam was never really given a class all its own, we never really got a actual warrior or hunter class, what we got was weapon skills. Now I want stam builds to get cool new skills to play with too, but there is a flaw in the game's core skill design that makes this opposed directly to magicka builds, and that's the weapon skills. Stam never got much to choose from in their class trees because it was expected that they would rely on the weapon skills. They get not one, not two, not even three, but FOUR weapon skill lines, while magicka get a whopping two weapons, one for dps and one fore healing, which made magicka builds rely on class skills. This kinda worked, it wasn't ideal for either build type, but it worked. Now, with stam cutting into magicka morphs more, the balance has been thrown off. Does that mean they should stop making stam morphs? I don't think so, I think they need to make more magicka weapon options, like dagger and focus, or spell tomes, or even new staff types, ( Though I would greatly prefer the spell tomes or focus options more. ) Just something to kill this old way of doing things without crushing one build type.

A lot of good points here. More magicka weapon or skill lines would be ideal.

Speaking from a game identity standpoint, stamina magic skills make no sense. How do you use stamina to raise a skeleton or summon a ghost? It makes precious little sense. With all the stam morphs of necro skills we are reaching the point where stamina is just green magicka

MassTerror23

BalticBlues wrote: »

MagDen and MacNecro are very similar,
sharing similar skills and similar shortcomings, examples:

- Skull mimics Cliff Racer, BlastBones mimics Fissure, ...
- Skill micromanagement
- No spammable Execute
Is it worth playing even a second mag class which cannot compete?

ZOS, you wanted to avoid mistakes made with MagDens... but didn't you even copy them?
For a spammable Execute, Warden and Necro players must play Stam. THIS SUCKS.

ZOS, please give MagNecros at least a spammable Execute.
If you do not want it to be a class-skill, you could redesign DESTRO-PULSAR as an Execute,
so that Magplayers also have a close-range-execute as Stamplayers have.

Don’t same stamplayers because not all stamplayers have access to an execute

AndyMac

See what hits live I guess, but judging by the above I’m unlikely to be rolling a mag necro

Brrrofski

Can we just chill and let it go live first.

As PvP and PvE aren't separated (as far as skills go) let's see how necro plays in both PvP and PvE before we call for buffs which may break one or the other.

LukosCreyden

@MassTerror23 we actually DO have access to an execute. Whether you decide to slot it or not is a different story, but ALL stam classes have executes available to them.

Anhedonie

Brrrofski wrote: »

Can we just chill and let it go live first.

As PvP and PvE aren't separated (as far as skills go) let's see how necro plays in both PvP and PvE before we call for buffs which may break one or the other.

No, because we all know once it hits live, it will take very long time to change. Wardens are still plagued by terrible mechanics and class design overall is garbage. And it's been what, 2 or 3 years?

HowlKimchi

Tessitura wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Stam necro's have too many class skill morphs. No creativity left to mag necros

I Both agree and disagree with this. Stam did cut into magicka's ability options leaving stam with a overwhelming about of build options between their weapon choices and class morphs. Stam was never really given a class all its own, we never really got a actual warrior or hunter class, what we got was weapon skills. Now I want stam builds to get cool new skills to play with too, but there is a flaw in the game's core skill design that makes this opposed directly to magicka builds, and that's the weapon skills. Stam never got much to choose from in their class trees because it was expected that they would rely on the weapon skills. They get not one, not two, not even three, but FOUR weapon skill lines, while magicka get a whopping two weapons, one for dps and one fore healing, which made magicka builds rely on class skills. This kinda worked, it wasn't ideal for either build type, but it worked. Now, with stam cutting into magicka morphs more, the balance has been thrown off. Does that mean they should stop making stam morphs? I don't think so, I think they need to make more magicka weapon options, like dagger and focus, or spell tomes, or even new staff types, ( Though I would greatly prefer the spell tomes or focus options more. ) Just something to kill this old way of doing things without crushing one build type.

Exactly this. This also applies to other classes that ask for stam morphs of magicka class skills. Like a stamina dk whip (i mean, seriously?)

Emma_Overload

I've never heard a convincing explanation for why Stamina needs to be stronger and more cost effective than Magicka. The imbalance between Magromancer and Stamromancer is just reflective of the larger Stamina/Magicka imbalance that plagues the whole game.

MellowMagic

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I've never heard a convincing explanation for why Stamina needs to be stronger and more cost effective than Magicka. The imbalance between Magromancer and Stamromancer is just reflective of the larger Stamina/Magicka imbalance that plagues the whole game.

its Melee vs ranged.

Ranged offers more safety

Melee is riskier so the pay off should be more

there are exceptions to this which i am not denying but it is usually agreed on that playing a stam toon is slightly harder then a magic toon.

katorga

iCaliban wrote: »

Tessitura wrote: »

iCaliban wrote: »

Stam necro's have too many class skill morphs. No creativity left to mag necros

I Both agree and disagree with this. Stam did cut into magicka's ability options leaving stam with a overwhelming about of build options between their weapon choices and class morphs. Stam was never really given a class all its own, we never really got a actual warrior or hunter class, what we got was weapon skills. Now I want stam builds to get cool new skills to play with too, but there is a flaw in the game's core skill design that makes this opposed directly to magicka builds, and that's the weapon skills. Stam never got much to choose from in their class trees because it was expected that they would rely on the weapon skills. They get not one, not two, not even three, but FOUR weapon skill lines, while magicka get a whopping two weapons, one for dps and one fore healing, which made magicka builds rely on class skills. This kinda worked, it wasn't ideal for either build type, but it worked. Now, with stam cutting into magicka morphs more, the balance has been thrown off. Does that mean they should stop making stam morphs? I don't think so, I think they need to make more magicka weapon options, like dagger and focus, or spell tomes, or even new staff types, ( Though I would greatly prefer the spell tomes or focus options more. ) Just something to kill this old way of doing things without crushing one build type.

A lot of good points here. More magicka weapon or skill lines would be ideal.

Speaking from a game identity standpoint, stamina magic skills make no sense. How do you use stamina to raise a skeleton or summon a ghost? It makes precious little sense. With all the stam morphs of necro skills we are reaching the point where stamina is just green magicka

Remember at release that soft caps made everything essentially a hybrid. Even destro staff scaled off weapon damage. Removing soft caps and creating a hard division between stam and mag broke the fundamental design of the game.