Shuffle and Race Against Time

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The 5.0.3 patch notes are a massive disappointment. It looked like we were on track to finally have some positive changes go live, and this patch has just set us back two steps. With race against time's immunity being reduced to 2 seconds, it is no longer a viable snare immunity to use over mist form. Even with the other effects (expedition, force), this skill simply does not provide enough snare immunity to be worthwhile AS A SNARE IMMUNITY. When you look at the increasing number of people using forward momentum on the stamina side, it becomes more and more apparent that even shuffle with a 2.5-3.5s immunity timer, is not a strong enough snare immunity to use. If anything, the force should have been removed from race against time. The game needs more viable snare immunity options, not sub par snare immunity options.

The developer comment for the race against time nerf is as follows "Since Accelerate is already such a powerful ability granting both damage and mobility potential at reduced costs, we wanted to ensure other abilities that grant similar functions of snare or immobilization immunity still had a place in builds. This is also seen with the Protective Plate ability, which already grants an incredibly powerful base function, so the standard 4 seconds duration is halved". If this is the reasoning behind the immunity timer of RAT being reduced, why wasn't shuffle's immunity timer increased? At this point, it is almost laughable that shuffle has been left untouched despite the obvious discrepancy in snare immunity abilities.

Please make the right decision this PTS cycle and fix what you've done to RAT, while simultaneously buffing shuffle. The game NEEDS mobility more than anything right now, and we're so close to having that.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RichLambert

Qwazzy

The game feels sluggish, allow players movement!

DeadlyRecluse

Yeah 2 seconds is pretty trash. I was looking forward to dropping mistform, too...

HankTwo

I think RAT with 4s snare and immobilization immunity would have been too strong compared to other mobility buffs. Keep in mind that no other skill give snare immunity coupled with major expedition, so 2s seem pretty fair to me.

frostz417

Welp, looks like my magplar will still be using trash mistform 😒

DeadlyRecluse

HankTwo wrote: »

. Keep in mind that RAT will give snare immunity on top of major expedition (no other skill does that!)

Mistform does those two things, but yeah, I get what you mean.

Pevey

Agree with OP so much. With a 1 sec GCD, 2 seconds of effect for anything is just ridiculously short. Too short to bother with.

HankTwo

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

. Keep in mind that RAT will give snare immunity on top of major expedition (no other skill does that!)

Mistform does those two things, but yeah, I get what you mean.

Ok, should have said unconditionally, since mistform doesn't allow you do perform any actions when active. Sure you can block-cancel it, but then you lose the snare and immobilization immunity.

ZRT

Instead of nerfing race against time they should have brought some of the other skills up to par, such as shuffle. We have been in a snare and root meta for too long and its time to let people actually move.

Ayastigi

Yea, way things are going forward momentum is going to be "brought in line" as well. 8secs immunity might have been strong back in the day but now most of us are still keeping the 4sec version because viable alternatives are non-existent at this point

TheActuary130

I'm not sure enough consideration has gone into my shield charge/low slash/talons build. Even 2 seconds is pushing it. With 4+ seconds of immunity, what purpose will my build serve? Guess I'll have to run a 40k health heavy blade with the new double take and Incap mag builds out of Cyrodiil.

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HankTwo wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

. Keep in mind that RAT will give snare immunity on top of major expedition (no other skill does that!)

Mistform does those two things, but yeah, I get what you mean.

Ok, should have said unconditionally, since mistform doesn't allow you do perform any actions when active. Sure you can block-cancel it, but then you lose the snare and immobilization immunity.

Mist form also provides massive damage mitigation... Like I said, we need SNARE IMMUNITY ABILITIES. If anything, the force should have been removed.

Firstmep

Instead of buffing wings snare duration they nerfed RAT, typical ZOS fashion.

I hoped with Wheeler behind the wheel(pun 100% intended), we would move away from the constant nerf everything to the ground in the name of balance, but alas no.

The gapcloser changes were perfect to make sure classes that arent as mobile can keep up with those that are.

Instead we can all go back to spamming frost wall and permafrost to make everyones lives miserable.

Shuffle needed a buff, wings needed a buff, lets nerf RAT.

I am very dissaponted.

Sanguinor2

Fun fact for Shuffle: Nightblades have a mag costing Shuffle with 4 seconds Duration that is not restricted to armor choice and still gives Major Evasion.

DeadlyRecluse

HankTwo wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

. Keep in mind that RAT will give snare immunity on top of major expedition (no other skill does that!)

Mistform does those two things, but yeah, I get what you mean.

Ok, should have said unconditionally, since mistform doesn't allow you do perform any actions when active. Sure you can block-cancel it, but then you lose the snare and immobilization immunity.

Yeah, I agree with you, I'm just being pedantic.

RAT was looking like a way for magicka to actually cast skills without being snared, which mistform doesn't exactly help with.

Firstmep

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Fun fact for Shuffle: Nightblades have a mag costing Shuffle with 4 seconds Duration that is not restricted to armor choice and still gives Major Evasion.

Of course this whole patch have been about pulling a whole 180 on nightblades (not buffing magblades/not nerfing stamblades).

I just dont understand why we cant have one patch where everyone isnt snared into perpetuity?
Just once. I know a lot people complained when we had the swift meta, but they already (over)reacted to that, can we not go back to the same painful move at 10% speed meta we have had since speed nerfs?

Thank you

Frudu

Imo if you use a major expedition skill you should also remove all current snares on you and have a 2-4 sec snareimmunity.

Atm its a: u use a snare remover like shuffle and dont care about snare b: a+ something like bowdode 30% speedbuff and your a racecar c: you dont have a snare remover, you have a speedbuff but you are snared alltime and slow af.

HankTwo

ZRT wrote: »

Instead of nerfing race against time they should have brought some of the other skills up to par, such as shuffle. We have been in a snare and root meta for too long and its time to let people actually move.

Imo, they should just turn snares and roots a bit down, and they are actually doing this with the upcoming patch-> passive 3s root immunity anytime you will get out of a root and nerfs to AOE snares like wall of frost and permafrost are changes in the right direction. 2s immunity on RAT vs vampire with mistform seems like a better balanced choice than 4s on RAT.

P.S.: On my stamDK I can somewhat manage snares and roots with 2s immunity from wings alone (I use rally because I really like having a burst heal). I mostly play bgs with him.

P.S.S.: Won't matter anyway if incap changes go live XP

React

HankTwo wrote: »

ZRT wrote: »

Instead of nerfing race against time they should have brought some of the other skills up to par, such as shuffle. We have been in a snare and root meta for too long and its time to let people actually move.

Imo, they should just turn snares and roots a bit down, and they are actually doing this with the upcoming patch-> passive 3s root immunity anytime you will get out of a root and nerfs to AOE snares like wall of frost and permafrost are changes in the right direction. 2s immunity on RAT vs vampire with mistform seems like a better balanced choice than 4s on RAT.

P.S.: On my stamDK I can somewhat manage snares and roots with 2s immunity from wings alone (I use rally because I really like having a burst heal). I mostly play bgs with him.

P.S.S.: Won't matter anyway if incap changes go live XP

"I mostly play BG's with him"

Unfortunately, BG's are 100% not comparable to open world CP or NO-CP. They are a controlled environment where less movement is required and there aren't nearly as many chances for you to be snared. You don't even need to run a snare immunity in there on certain setups, where as in open world for any type of solo/small scale you absolutely need a snare immunity.

HankTwo

Liam12548 wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

ZRT wrote: »

Instead of nerfing race against time they should have brought some of the other skills up to par, such as shuffle. We have been in a snare and root meta for too long and its time to let people actually move.

Imo, they should just turn snares and roots a bit down, and they are actually doing this with the upcoming patch-> passive 3s root immunity anytime you will get out of a root and nerfs to AOE snares like wall of frost and permafrost are changes in the right direction. 2s immunity on RAT vs vampire with mistform seems like a better balanced choice than 4s on RAT.

P.S.: On my stamDK I can somewhat manage snares and roots with 2s immunity from wings alone (I use rally because I really like having a burst heal). I mostly play bgs with him.

P.S.S.: Won't matter anyway if incap changes go live XP

"I mostly play BG's with him"

Unfortunately, BG's are 100% not comparable to open world CP or NO-CP. They are a controlled environment where less movement is required and there aren't nearly as many chances for you to be snared. You don't even need to run a snare immunity in there on certain setups, where as in open world for any type of solo/small scale you absolutely need a snare immunity.

There is an abundance of frost wardens that are build around huge AOE snares and immobilizations in high mmr matches this patch.

CatchMeTrolling

I’m just glad I didn’t go leveling the skill line up. I do think 2 secs is worth it.

React

HankTwo wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

ZRT wrote: »

Instead of nerfing race against time they should have brought some of the other skills up to par, such as shuffle. We have been in a snare and root meta for too long and its time to let people actually move.

Imo, they should just turn snares and roots a bit down, and they are actually doing this with the upcoming patch-> passive 3s root immunity anytime you will get out of a root and nerfs to AOE snares like wall of frost and permafrost are changes in the right direction. 2s immunity on RAT vs vampire with mistform seems like a better balanced choice than 4s on RAT.

P.S.: On my stamDK I can somewhat manage snares and roots with 2s immunity from wings alone (I use rally because I really like having a burst heal). I mostly play bgs with him.

P.S.S.: Won't matter anyway if incap changes go live XP

"I mostly play BG's with him"

Unfortunately, BG's are 100% not comparable to open world CP or NO-CP. They are a controlled environment where less movement is required and there aren't nearly as many chances for you to be snared. You don't even need to run a snare immunity in there on certain setups, where as in open world for any type of solo/small scale you absolutely need a snare immunity.

There is an abundance of frost wardens that are build around huge AOE snares and immobilizations in high mmr matches this patch.

I get that, but the point is that the environment in there is much less open with far more LOS opportunities, it's nearly always a 3 way fight which means you're being directly targeted by far fewer abilities that snare you AND you can navigate out of bad situations much more easily by shedding aggro on the 3rd party which means there is much less of a need for snare immunities.

In open world, you need to kite much farther, there is often no third party to be target or to shed aggro upon, and there are far more abilities being directly targeted on you which means more snares.

HankTwo

Liam12548 wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

ZRT wrote: »

Instead of nerfing race against time they should have brought some of the other skills up to par, such as shuffle. We have been in a snare and root meta for too long and its time to let people actually move.

Imo, they should just turn snares and roots a bit down, and they are actually doing this with the upcoming patch-> passive 3s root immunity anytime you will get out of a root and nerfs to AOE snares like wall of frost and permafrost are changes in the right direction. 2s immunity on RAT vs vampire with mistform seems like a better balanced choice than 4s on RAT.

P.S.: On my stamDK I can somewhat manage snares and roots with 2s immunity from wings alone (I use rally because I really like having a burst heal). I mostly play bgs with him.

P.S.S.: Won't matter anyway if incap changes go live XP

"I mostly play BG's with him"

Unfortunately, BG's are 100% not comparable to open world CP or NO-CP. They are a controlled environment where less movement is required and there aren't nearly as many chances for you to be snared. You don't even need to run a snare immunity in there on certain setups, where as in open world for any type of solo/small scale you absolutely need a snare immunity.

There is an abundance of frost wardens that are build around huge AOE snares and immobilizations in high mmr matches this patch.

I get that, but the point is that the environment in there is much less open with far more LOS opportunities, it's nearly always a 3 way fight which means you're being directly targeted by far fewer abilities that snare you AND you can navigate out of bad situations much more easily by shedding aggro on the 3rd party which means there is much less of a need for snare immunities.

In open world, you need to kite much farther, there is often no third party to be target or to shed aggro upon, and there are far more abilities being directly targeted on you which means more snares.

I can just tell you from my experience on the stam DK build in Cyro:

Snare immunity from wings alone is not enough for a prolonged 1vX tower run, thats true, but mostly because I will run out of magicka at some point because of a lack of mag sustain. However, in a ~4 man small scale I usually manage mobility well enough compared to other stam players that use forward momentum. Stamdens and stamsorc still have a mobility advantage, but thats because of major expedition on demand (bird of prey) or minor expedition (hurricane) + streak.

Simply put, the major expedition on RAT is a huge boon. Lets think about the following case and compare RAT to forward momentum: the player has a 60% snare on him and after 2s he will receive another 60% snare.
a) Forward momentum: player will remove the snare and stay at 100% speed for the whole duration.
b) RAT: player will remove the snare and will move at 130% speed for 2 seconds, then gets snared again and will move at 70% speed for the remaining 2 seconds. Average speed over 4 seconds: 100%.
This is literally the worst case scenario for RAT, and still the difference in performance isn't huge. Now, if you manage to break LOS after using your mobility skill, which is much easier with major expedition, then RAT is more useful than forward momentum as a mobility tool, because you will stay at 130% speed for the full 4 seconds.

On top of that, if you remove an immobilization with RAT, then the immobilization immunity should actually be 3s with the upcoming patch because of the passive, skill-independent immunity that the devs will implement.

Jeezye

Skill is still worth it, relax. Still saving 4k stamina instead of a dodgeroll when rooted, and combined with the expedition you actually cover a lot of ground. I even used it for mobility on live WITHOUT the snare immunity and it performed okayish

wheem_ESO

ZRT wrote: »

Instead of nerfing race against time they should have brought some of the other skills up to par, such as shuffle. We have been in a snare and root meta for too long and its time to let people actually move.

Keep in mind that there are several direct nerfs to snares coming with Elsweyr, along with 3 seconds worth of root immunity each time you get rooted. I could see that + widespread immunity options being something that swings the pendulum too far in the other direction, making snares and roots too weak, and getting us too close to having the ridiculous "speed meta" back.

That said, I don't agree with the particular change they made to Race Against Time. I think a far better option would have been to increase the cost, so it wouldn't be as spammable for as long (and also wouldn't be as much of an option for Stamina builds to use with the giant heal from Rally, instead of Forward Momentum).

Rikumaru

HankTwo wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

ZRT wrote: »

Instead of nerfing race against time they should have brought some of the other skills up to par, such as shuffle. We have been in a snare and root meta for too long and its time to let people actually move.

Imo, they should just turn snares and roots a bit down, and they are actually doing this with the upcoming patch-> passive 3s root immunity anytime you will get out of a root and nerfs to AOE snares like wall of frost and permafrost are changes in the right direction. 2s immunity on RAT vs vampire with mistform seems like a better balanced choice than 4s on RAT.

P.S.: On my stamDK I can somewhat manage snares and roots with 2s immunity from wings alone (I use rally because I really like having a burst heal). I mostly play bgs with him.

P.S.S.: Won't matter anyway if incap changes go live XP

"I mostly play BG's with him"

Unfortunately, BG's are 100% not comparable to open world CP or NO-CP. They are a controlled environment where less movement is required and there aren't nearly as many chances for you to be snared. You don't even need to run a snare immunity in there on certain setups, where as in open world for any type of solo/small scale you absolutely need a snare immunity.

There is an abundance of frost wardens that are build around huge AOE snares and immobilizations in high mmr matches this patch.

I get that, but the point is that the environment in there is much less open with far more LOS opportunities, it's nearly always a 3 way fight which means you're being directly targeted by far fewer abilities that snare you AND you can navigate out of bad situations much more easily by shedding aggro on the 3rd party which means there is much less of a need for snare immunities.

In open world, you need to kite much farther, there is often no third party to be target or to shed aggro upon, and there are far more abilities being directly targeted on you which means more snares.

I can just tell you from my experience on the stam DK build in Cyro:

Snare immunity from wings alone is not enough for a prolonged 1vX tower run, thats true, but mostly because I will run out of magicka at some point because of a lack of mag sustain. However, in a ~4 man small scale I usually manage mobility well enough compared to other stam players that use forward momentum. Stamdens and stamsorc still have a mobility advantage, but thats because of major expedition on demand (bird of prey) or minor expedition (hurricane) + streak.

Simply put, the major expedition on RAT is a huge boon. Lets think about the following case and compare RAT to forward momentum: the player has a 60% snare on him and after 2s he will receive another 60% snare.
a) Forward momentum: player will remove the snare and stay at 100% speed for the whole duration.
b) RAT: player will remove the snare and will move at 130% speed for 2 seconds, then gets snared again and will move at 70% speed for the remaining 2 seconds. Average speed over 4 seconds: 100%.
This is literally the worst case scenario for RAT, and still the difference in performance isn't huge. Now, if you manage to break LOS after using your mobility skill, which is much easier with major expedition, then RAT is more useful than forward momentum as a mobility tool, because you will stay at 130% speed for the full 4 seconds.

On top of that, if you remove an immobilization with RAT, then the immobilization immunity should actually be 3s with the upcoming patch because of the passive, skill-independent immunity that the devs will implement.

Pretty sure snares are multiplicative (after speed buffs) which is why expedition is not a viable counter for snares on live (if this is the case then you would be moving at 52% speed).

This change is kinda dumb, people complain constantly about how shuffle isn't a good snare removal and now race against time is on the same level as shuffle.

Qwazzy

Higher up-time on snare immunity please!

Stx

If rat had 4 seconds of immunity but lost major expo it would be fine. 4 seconds of immunity and major expo would be mandatory skill to slot for every build in the game. No one would use shuffle, momentum, or the nb skill. It would have been so OP and the fact that so many people dont realise this is kind of sad.

No other skill has major expo plus immunity. It's too good. Even at 2 seconds it's good because you dont have to spend 2 globals or double resources to get speed and immune. You just hit rat and sprint off to wherever you want.

DeadlyRecluse

Stx wrote: »

No other skill has major expo plus immunity

M-m-m-mistform!

But obviously the disadvantages of mistform are such that your point still stands.

thankyourat

Stx wrote: »

If rat had 4 seconds of immunity but lost major expo it would be fine. 4 seconds of immunity and major expo would be mandatory skill to slot for every build in the game. No one would use shuffle, momentum, or the nb skill. It would have been so OP and the fact that so many people dont realise this is kind of sad.

No other skill has major expo plus immunity. It's too good. Even at 2 seconds it's good because you dont have to spend 2 globals or double resources to get speed and immune. You just hit rat and sprint off to wherever you want.

I think everyone realized it would be the strongest mobility skill. But is that because this skill was too strong or is it because other mobility skills are too weak. Also at 2 seconds would there be a reason to slot this ability over mist form for magicka users? Two seconds is not really enough time to set up a burst combo so in my opinion mist form is the superior repositioning ability because of the damage reduction.

Chilly-McFreeze

thankyourat wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

If rat had 4 seconds of immunity but lost major expo it would be fine. 4 seconds of immunity and major expo would be mandatory skill to slot for every build in the game. No one would use shuffle, momentum, or the nb skill. It would have been so OP and the fact that so many people dont realise this is kind of sad.

No other skill has major expo plus immunity. It's too good. Even at 2 seconds it's good because you dont have to spend 2 globals or double resources to get speed and immune. You just hit rat and sprint off to wherever you want.

Two seconds is not really enough time to set up a burst combo so in my opinion mist form is the superior repositioning ability because of the damage reduction.

True. Even trying to get off a Dizzy in the 4s after using FM is a chore with current lag.