Magsorc nerf when?

Tessitura

Man, you know that wasn't really a nerf right? Did you even check out the pts? NB is stronger now then it was in pvp, Magblade especially.

Qbiken

TheYKcid wrote: »

Concerning PvP, the resto utl nerf is simply going to push the few remaining non-pet Sorcs toward the zootard build.

Meanwhile, the Daedric prey nerf is insignificant - since the best pet builds use the Haunting Curse morph anyway.

Pet targeting needs to be toggle-able, and the Matriarch needs to have it's damage removed/reduced to define it more clearly as a healing morph. There is no reason for a defensive slot to passively be dealing damage ticks equal to a Master's DW Rending... while also giving free, portable LOS.

All this is coming from a Sorc main who feels anyone that says "Sorc needs pets to be viable" is making excuses. Nonpet Sorc is extremely viable and strong right now, though we'll see how it plays-out after the resto & ward nerfs in Elsweyr.

My biggest issue with petsorcs isn´t the inability to target them in the first place. Sure it´s annoying but you can eventually take them down even though the pets offers free LoS. My biggest issues with the sorc pets are:

1. The amount of damage the matriarch does is absolutly ridicilous. It´s not unusual for me to see 4-6k zaps in my combat metrics reports after fighting petsorcs. And I can´t consider running matriarch a "trade-off that requires two slots" due to how many benefits it gives you (both through active abilities and pasives)

2. Afaik the healing from the matriarc is bugged on live and isn´t correctly reduced by battlespirit. But hopefully the fix with Elsweyr this will make the matriarch alot easier to deal with. However, having a pet that deals a significant amount of damage on top of having a powerful heal, is a bit too much in my opinion. Would prefer to see ZOS making noticable difference between the two winged twilight morphs, so one gives better healing but alot less damage, and the other morph significantly less healing, but more damage.

3. If a sorc decides to streak away from an encounter, the pet can sometimes remain on the fighting location for a short duration and it´s health will keep getting reset, no matter how many times you get it low, and this is without any signs of the sorc activating the healing part of the skill.

4. Storm atronach: Why does this skill have a snare attached to it, even though nothing in its tooltip indicates that it will snare the focused target? Either update the tooltip or remove the snare, I lowkey don´t care which one to be honest.

TheYKcid

Targeting isn't the only issue, but it's undoubtedly a huge one imo. Another annoying and highly questionable pet behaviour is the tendency of the Matriarch to continuously port behind it's owner when they are on the retreat (as frequently as once per second!) giving constant coverage against targeted attacks.

5k Matriarch hits on a dedicated pet build (with Daedric Prey) is ridiculous for sure. But what I find equally absurd (and often overlooked) is the fact that a typical Sorc build with no special investment into pets can easily attain 2k crits on the Matriarch. This is as much as Rending buffed with Master's DW, at the same tick interval, and no one questions how strong the latter is.

Universe

Magicka Sorcerer as a class in PVP is fine.
Pet Magicka Sorcerer isn't.
It is true that pet builds are Overperforming in PVP 1v1 and small scale.
ZOS needs to address the pets and not nerf the all whole class.

I don't use a pet build, but I'm still doing good in PVP.
If I would switch to pet build, I will be better.
Though I refuse to play with OP build, which in this case is the pets.

Note: After reading the PTS patch notes again, it seems ZOS did address the pets a bit.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Fixed an issue where pets were only having their Healing Received from Battle Spirit reduced by 50, rather than 50%.
Fixed an issue where pet shield sizes were not being properly reduced by Battle Spirit.
Daedric Prey (morph): Reworked the ability rank up of this ability.
Reduced the damage bonus for pets from this ability to 40% from 55%.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Fixed an issue where pets were doubling some of their owner’s bonuses, such as Critical Strike Chance or Mundus Stones.

So maybe pets were nerfed enough.
It is only a matter of the changes to go live from PTS.

labambao

Derra

TheYKcid wrote: »

5k Matriarch hits on a dedicated pet build (with Daedric Prey) is ridiculous for sure. But what I find equally absurd (and often overlooked) is the fact that a typical Sorc build with no special investment into pets can easily attain 2k crits on the Matriarch. This is as much as Rending buffed with Master's DW, at the same tick interval, and no one questions how strong the latter is.

I find this to be a little biased.

Pet attack frequency is 25% slower than rending bleed.
The pet attack is also dodgeable - rending once applied is not.
The pet attacks one target - you can multidot with rending.
The pet can die removing all of it´s functionality (two slotes - one dmg one heal).

I´m not saying the pet is weak.
I´m rather along the lines of - if i had the option to access a strong dot ability + a strong heal ability i would be highly inclined to use those over the pet. Matter of fact is - sorc doesn´t have that option.

labambao

I am nocp player. Yesterday I was in IC on cp campaign and meet the bird sorc with sb backbar in imperial physique. We was fighting about 10 minutes, then I just cloak away. I just deal 0 damage with my viper masters. He can kill me for sure, but that was just a potato player abusing strong build.
Imo petsorcs a little bit overpowered rn, pets need a pure rework.

TheYKcid

No one is implying Matriarch is the functional equivalent of Rending. With all due respect, I'm calling that a strawman.

The comparison was made to give perspective on the raw damage potential of the Matriarch. This, in addition to the fact that it offers a strong multi-target burst heal AND priceless LOS opportunities simply blows any one-to-one comparison out of the water. Rending simply has no parallel if we're going to contrast all the secondary benefits involved.

Sorc, by design, doesn't need strong DoT pressure due to having powerful and frequent burst windows. And even then, still has decent pressure by virtue of unavoidable curses and Master Reach spam. The fact that Matriarch compounds all this with one of the strongest non-ult DoTs in the game, while simultaneously boosting the user's survivability, sends it completely over the top.

Frankly it's just as bad as the heavy bleedblades of old. Arguably worse due to possessing more utility.

P.S. Matriarch attacks at 2s intervals AFAIK, identical to the tickrate of Rending. I'll investigate further to confirm this, however.

Derra

TheYKcid wrote: »

No one is implying Matriarch is the functional equivalent of Rending. With all due respect, I'm calling that a strawman.

The comparison was made to give perspective on the raw damage potential of the Matriarch. This, in addition to the fact that it offers a strong multi-target burst heal AND priceless LOS opportunities simply blows any one-to-one comparison out of the water. Rending simply has no parallel if we're going to contrast all the secondary benefits involved.

Sorc, by design, doesn't need strong DoT pressure due to having powerful and frequent burst windows. And even then, still has decent pressure by virtue of unavoidable curses and Master Reach spam. The fact that Matriarch compounds all this with one of the strongest non-ult DoTs in the game, while simultaneously boosting the user's survivability, sends it completely over the top.

Frankly it's just as bad as the heavy bleedblades of old. Arguably worse due to possessing more utility.

P.S. Matriarch attacks at 2s intervals AFAIK, identical to the tickrate of Rending. I'll investigate further to confirm this, however.

It has a 2.5s attack interval.

You´re right you can´t make a 1 to 1 comparison. Which is why i suggested comparing it to two skills - the number of slots it actually costs.

I´ve also said that given the option to replace the currently offered functionality of matriarch (excluding the los) with two skills i´d be inclined to do so.

I find the statement of not needing dot pressure to be uninformed or ignorant. Any heavyarmor sword and board builds healing capabilities can outpace pure burst sorc builds.

Also i didn´t say matriarch wasn´t strong. I´m saying that it has to be - because it can die and it frequently does outside of very small controlled scenarios while also costing two skillslots.
With the current pet design (attackable permanent and being able to die) the pet can not be universially balanced. It´ll be OP in any 1v1 scenario if zos wants them to be even remotely useable in XvX environments.

Tonnopesce

The only thing that i hate about sorcs is that they steal all my kills in battlegrounds, other than that a nerf right now can destroy the class so i don't know if is a good thing.
Better buff the others imho.

zyk

I predict the most important thing come out of ESO will be a yet to be conceived iconic pop music act called Nerf Sorc.

Anyron

1) without any way to heal myself i am forced to use pets. Only class healing skills are dark conversion/deal - which is inerruptable and surge which depends on how you are able to deal criticals

2) If you wanna make pets no longer targetable, fine with me. I consider this buff, rather than nerf

3) lack of counterplay for curse? What are you, rolling stamblade? I think skill with 6s delay isnt that much op

4) Mages fury - skill that deals minimum damage if ur above 20% hp. Average health in pvp is 25k. 20% is 5k health. Mostly when ur under 5k ur already dead. Its just you hate this because you see it on death recaps. Its finisher. Most executes starts below 50% health. This skill is also useless in pve.

5) Crystal Fragments - your "surprise" attack hits just as hard as this proc. And you can spam it.

6) hardened ward - give me option to do rolls costing magicka instead of stamina. Right now with my 1 roll and 1 CC break it isnt enought, thats why magsorc must rely on wards.

Is there single skill which isnt OP for you in sorcerer skill line? I guess not

Ragnaroek93

Just buff other classes. The game will for sure not be more enjoyable in one year if ZOS continues to only (well almost) nerfs us...

Olupajmibanan

Just wait till Elsweyr goes live and see how it's changes impact the gameplay.

Strider__Roshin

Vapirko wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Hardened Ward will get 'nerfed' (bug fix) by 20% come Elsweyr.

OP is willfully ignoring some evidence or hasn’t fully read the patch notes. But seeing as he’s a medium stamblade refusing to use cloak for the past year+ I can at least understand where the salt is coming from.

Nah I read that, but they also mentioned that the bug wasn't granting a shield larger than 50% of your health so it's not really a nerf honestly.

Aedaryl

Daus wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Hardened Ward will get 'nerfed' (bug fix) by 20% come Elsweyr.

OP is willfully ignoring some evidence or hasn’t fully read the patch notes. But seeing as he’s a medium stamblade refusing to use cloak for the past year+ I can at least understand where the salt is coming from.

Nah I read that, but they also mentioned that the bug wasn't granting a shield larger than 50% of your health so it's not really a nerf honestly.

Is it a nerf, and I can feel it.

That's mean to get the same shield value on live, you need to get stronger max Magicka combined with more than 20% bastion cp than before, if it's possible.

And no CP just take the complete 20% nerf without a way to compensate.

@Daus You also forget that pets damage (both sorcs skills and monster sets) are nerfed by 15% from deadric prey.

You also forget that pet will take 50% less healing.

And Sorcs hasn't been nerfed?

martijnlv40

Just make sure that it will PvP nerfs only, in PvE it's not necessary.

ku5h

Daus wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Hardened Ward will get 'nerfed' (bug fix) by 20% come Elsweyr.

OP is willfully ignoring some evidence or hasn’t fully read the patch notes. But seeing as he’s a medium stamblade refusing to use cloak for the past year+ I can at least understand where the salt is coming from.

Nah I read that, but they also mentioned that the bug wasn't granting a shield larger than 50% of your health so it's not really a nerf honestly.

It's not a nerf only if you built your sorc wrong, but yea, OP is so biased even if they made all the nerfs her requested, he would make another nerfSorc tread very next day, calling for new nerfs. This guy is relentless.

Darkenarlol

l2p issue

looks like OP has learned nothing since

times when he rushed without any saves or cloack

into 2 sorcs and spended his ulti on EG sphere...

and complained that sorcs are op with a video

*evidence* which proved nothing except his baaaad skills


now he is complaining about sorcs (again)...

war scrub never changes

Aedaryl

Darkenarlol wrote: »

l2p issue

looks like OP has learned nothing since

times when he rushed without any saves or cloack

into 2 sorcs and spended his ulti on EG sphere...

and complained that sorcs are op with a video

*evidence* which proved nothing except his baaaad skills


now he is complaining about sorcs (again)...

war scrub never changes

Where is that video ?

Darkenarlol

somewhere in one of sorc hate and buff nb cry threads

of this long-known sorc hater if he did not deleted it.

it was somewhere between alinor and murkmire if i remember correctly

Iskiab

Sorcs are fine, they’re aren’t OP... but some of the people who play them are ridiculously whiney and go around calling for nerfs on other classes and call their buffs nerfs, all while enjoying being a strong class in pvp.

What do sorcs expect when they go around complaining about other classes while being strong?

This thread is silly yes, but it’s also inevitable. Are there any class threads without a sorc chiming in and asking for that class to be nerfed?

DarkPicture

i love the nb tears, sooo tasty

btw i hope they will nerf even more nbs

josh.lackey_ESO

Take away invis cloak from pvp, nb too strong

TheYKcid

Derra wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

No one is implying Matriarch is the functional equivalent of Rending. With all due respect, I'm calling that a strawman.

The comparison was made to give perspective on the raw damage potential of the Matriarch. This, in addition to the fact that it offers a strong multi-target burst heal AND priceless LOS opportunities simply blows any one-to-one comparison out of the water. Rending simply has no parallel if we're going to contrast all the secondary benefits involved.

Sorc, by design, doesn't need strong DoT pressure due to having powerful and frequent burst windows. And even then, still has decent pressure by virtue of unavoidable curses and Master Reach spam. The fact that Matriarch compounds all this with one of the strongest non-ult DoTs in the game, while simultaneously boosting the user's survivability, sends it completely over the top.

Frankly it's just as bad as the heavy bleedblades of old. Arguably worse due to possessing more utility.

P.S. Matriarch attacks at 2s intervals AFAIK, identical to the tickrate of Rending. I'll investigate further to confirm this, however.

It has a 2.5s attack interval.

You´re right you can´t make a 1 to 1 comparison. Which is why i suggested comparing it to two skills - the number of slots it actually costs.

I´ve also said that given the option to replace the currently offered functionality of matriarch (excluding the los) with two skills i´d be inclined to do so.

I find the statement of not needing dot pressure to be uninformed or ignorant. Any heavyarmor sword and board builds healing capabilities can outpace pure burst sorc builds.

Also i didn´t say matriarch wasn´t strong. I´m saying that it has to be - because it can die and it frequently does outside of very small controlled scenarios while also costing two skillslots.
With the current pet design (attackable permanent and being able to die) the pet can not be universially balanced. It´ll be OP in any 1v1 scenario if zos wants them to be even remotely useable in XvX environments.

All valid concerns, in a vacuum. But the meta speaks for itself:

Pet builds are still favoured outnumbered open-world, so they're clearly capable in vX situations. And in the duelling scene (where heavy armor S&B abounds), nonpet Sorc is still a top-tier pick, so it evidently doesn't struggle against such builds, either.

Everything you raised are genuine shortfalls in theory. But in practice, petsorc enjoys huge benefits that more than compensate for its weaknesses.

Juhasow

Bergzorn wrote: »

Hardened Ward will get 'nerfed' (bug fix) by 20% come Elsweyr.

In most cases that change will change nothing.

Juhasow

Derra wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

No one is implying Matriarch is the functional equivalent of Rending. With all due respect, I'm calling that a strawman.

The comparison was made to give perspective on the raw damage potential of the Matriarch. This, in addition to the fact that it offers a strong multi-target burst heal AND priceless LOS opportunities simply blows any one-to-one comparison out of the water. Rending simply has no parallel if we're going to contrast all the secondary benefits involved.

Sorc, by design, doesn't need strong DoT pressure due to having powerful and frequent burst windows. And even then, still has decent pressure by virtue of unavoidable curses and Master Reach spam. The fact that Matriarch compounds all this with one of the strongest non-ult DoTs in the game, while simultaneously boosting the user's survivability, sends it completely over the top.

Frankly it's just as bad as the heavy bleedblades of old. Arguably worse due to possessing more utility.

P.S. Matriarch attacks at 2s intervals AFAIK, identical to the tickrate of Rending. I'll investigate further to confirm this, however.

It has a 2.5s attack interval.

You´re right you can´t make a 1 to 1 comparison. Which is why i suggested comparing it to two skills - the number of slots it actually costs.

I´ve also said that given the option to replace the currently offered functionality of matriarch (excluding the los) with two skills i´d be inclined to do so.

I find the statement of not needing dot pressure to be uninformed or ignorant. Any heavyarmor sword and board builds healing capabilities can outpace pure burst sorc builds.

Also i didn´t say matriarch wasn´t strong. I´m saying that it has to be - because it can die and it frequently does outside of very small controlled scenarios while also costing two skillslots.
With the current pet design (attackable permanent and being able to die) the pet can not be universially balanced. It´ll be OP in any 1v1 scenario if zos wants them to be even remotely useable in XvX environments.

I actually compared once the amount of heal and damage I am getting on petsorc with matriarch and heal plus dmg I get on templar with vampires bane and honor the dead. matriach is beating those 2 templar abilities. Main reason is cost because You simply dont have to use any resources for pet to do damage it's just active 100% of a time for free making it on of the strongest damaging ability on PvP 1 pet build. Many times in BGs it's possible for pet to reach 15%+ of overall dmg done. Pet heal also have adventages. It have potential to be better heal then BoL when You take under consideration that average value of the heal on You and allies and the fact pet heal have 360 degree radius. Those things more then compensate fact that pet can die. Yes it takes two slots but it's often more effective then 2 regular abilities You would slot there.

SirMewser

Daus wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It's surprising that they even nerfed Nightblades considering the current magsorc dominance. Pets are way too strong and offer too much survivability via LOS, the lack of counterplay with Haunting Curse, the fact that Mage's Fury auto-kills, the potency of the magsorcs survivability via hardened Ward, and Crystal Frags hits way too hard considering how frequently it procs.

The issue is you can’t viably play a mag sorc in PvP rn without one pet. How they will solve that idk. Most mag sorcs aren’t super happy about being pigeonholed into matriarch SB builds but with the resto nerf you’ll be seeing a lot more of them.

This video says otherwise. Skip to the 10:54 mark

https://youtu.be/zGHuGAOiVG0

Yeah, he is a good player able to kill groups of players... On many different classes, as seen in the video you've posted.

I'm all for nerfing sorcs more, just means more easy AP.

Heck, nerf all classes, I'll be going Necro anyways.
Single slotted pets, a spammable, mass res, AoE fear, minor and major vulnerability debuffs, frost damage/maim sources, some fire/burning sources, 2 synergies (neither tied to at least one ult, like other classes besides Warden) one can be self activated, active empower buff, active armour with an actual model (unlike bound armour), a passive pull on an active, a better repentance, heal absorption, health/sap tank, a few sources of purge, major protection, AoE major breech and fracture , the original volatile familiar skill, healing/damage crit bonuses that encourage passive execute / fatal-recov, major and minor defile, lots of mobile AoE DoTs.

It's like all the pleas requested for other classes, compiled into one.

Eldartar

All the moaning / whining peeps will have a new focus soon ............ yep, the Necro. Not long now ......

OneKhajiitCrimeWave

Ok, so the main issue with sorcs used to be the 3 shield stack. ZOS worked on this and the situation improved. Then the good mag sorcs found a new way to survive and thrive. I'm sure they're not happy that many of them are tied to a budgie or zoo setup but they found a solid way to work around issues.

So they have a Daedric Meatshield now? So what, it costs them a lot to keep it alive resource wise if you pump a burst combo in to the budgie.

Their shields are strong because they have had to become more defensively minded with their set choices/CP options. You're seeing sets like Pariah, Armor Master or Chudan become more involved in MagSorc PvP setups. No more 2 attacking sets stacked with an aggressive monster set choice.

Stop the magsorc hunt. Their main problem was removed and the heals of the budgie will be fixed next patch, further balancing them. I want magsorcs to be strong but not overpowered. Same as I want for ALL classes.

Stamblade have had some nerfs pumped in this patch to help balance them which have affected Magblade heavily. Ask for Magblade specific buffs, not other class nerfs.