Dark Flare

Aedaryl

Druid40 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

34 hits. It's the same amount since the beginning of the game.

Unreliable. You are light attack weaving. Weaving is not spamming Dark Flare.

Spamming one skill without weaving doesn't represent the reality.

jbjondeaueb17_ESO

Range of Dark Flare 28m, range of Snipe 35m, you can manage to be out of range of interrupt skills with Snipe, not with Dark Flare.
But i suppose it's easy to forget when you mostly (only ?) use bows.

Toc de Malsvi

jbjondeaueb17_ESO wrote: »

Range of Dark Flare 28m, range of Snipe 35m, you can manage to be out of range of interrupt skills with Snipe, not with Dark Flare.
But i suppose it's easy to forget when you mostly (only ?) use bows.

I mentioned the range in my post. I even mentioned it as part of the reasons why Snipe is used more than DarkFlare. Please look beyond the name and actually read the content of the post. Players have more to offer than their name.

Druid40

Aedaryl wrote: »

Druid40 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

34 hits. It's the same amount since the beginning of the game.

Unreliable. You are light attack weaving. Weaving is not spamming Dark Flare.

Spamming one skill without weaving doesn't represent the reality.

You missed the entire point of everything.

Xvorg

Druid40 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Druid40 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

34 hits. It's the same amount since the beginning of the game.

Unreliable. You are light attack weaving. Weaving is not spamming Dark Flare.

Spamming one skill without weaving doesn't represent the reality.

You missed the entire point of everything.

let me see it from a math perspective:

10/1.1 = 9.09
10/1 = 10

So now in 10 secs you have 1 more DF

if you hit DF at 5k, your net dmg in 10 secs was 45k (9 attacks)
If you hit DF at 3150, your net dmg in 10 sec is 31500 (10 attacks)

And I'm not even considering the extra magicka used to get that number.

Unless DF tooltip does not mention "something" that makes it OP I see a hell of a nerf here.

Druid40

Why are you replying that to me with all of that? I was commenting on the basis of testing methodology. You have also missed the point.

My intention is not to antagonize anyone else. I wanted to point out that comparing rapid spamming of a single ability is not equal to weaving in light attacks to demonstrate the speed of spamming an ability. There is nothing to prove to me. This is about raw data comparisons.

ecru

Aedaryl wrote: »

Druid40 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

34 hits. It's the same amount since the beginning of the game.

Unreliable. You are light attack weaving. Weaving is not spamming Dark Flare.

Spamming one skill without weaving doesn't represent the reality.

No, but it's an accurate way to test whether the 200ms post gcd was removed or not. It clearly was, or else the minimum time in between casts of Dark Flare would be 1200ms. Weaving anything over about .92 light attacks per second is mostly determined by how your routing to the servers are feeling that day, and on top of that doing so with a 1s cast time ability is going to be very, very difficult, especially when I'm not used to the animation of that specific ability, so I didn't see the point in trying to weave with it at all.

Regardless of all of this discussion, to me the ability felt much better to weave and less clunky to use on PTS. I believe the damage was reduced by such an amount because the ability was simply doing too much damage/had too much burst potential on top of having a major defile for it to remain as is with the cast time reduction/200ms post gcd removal. It's still really good and I would absolutely slot it on my magplar in pretty much every pvp situation. Everyone likes to pretend they're the absolute best players in the game and somehow have the stamina to roll dodge (no one plays magicka at all apparently) or otherwise avoid literally every cast time ability, but you aren't. They also like to pretend that all of their opponents are hyper aware of everything that's going on and are so good that they're able to roll dodge pretty much every Dark Flare cast indefinitely, again with no one ever being magicka--everyone is stam and roll dodging everything all the time, lol. In reality you're still getting hit by it, you're still taking damage from it, and you're still getting defiled. You and your group.

Minno

Xvorg wrote: »

Druid40 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Druid40 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

34 hits. It's the same amount since the beginning of the game.

Unreliable. You are light attack weaving. Weaving is not spamming Dark Flare.

Spamming one skill without weaving doesn't represent the reality.

You missed the entire point of everything.

let me see it from a math perspective:

10/1.1 = 9.09
10/1 = 10

So now in 10 secs you have 1 more DF

if you hit DF at 5k, your net dmg in 10 secs was 45k (9 attacks)
If you hit DF at 3150, your net dmg in 10 sec is 31500 (10 attacks)

And I'm not even considering the extra magicka used to get that number.

Unless DF tooltip does not mention "something" that makes it OP I see a hell of a nerf here.

agreed. Sure its 14k tooltip, but if you compare it to something like force pulse:
- 14k versus 9k.
- if your target is burning, concussed, chilled, add another 3500 (12k roughly total)
- in the spam of 1 DF, youll hit someone with 1 force pulse and 2 light attacks getting ready to fire off your other force pulse. So DF is 14k+6000 for its light attack empowered, but force pulse is 15000 (18400 if you add the mag dmg component).
- DF has defile, but force pulse has 10% penetration on its dmg, chance to provide some extra dot dmg via burning+8% dmg with concussed and chilled minor maim defense.
- and force pulse travel time is basically instant. There is no arc so timing heavy attacks/light attacks is sexier.

Conclusion, if force pulse is your spamable, its going to kick more butt than dark flare. And with vamps bane being nerfed slightly for the way it tallies dots, you can't supplement VB in with DF as well as before. You are going to see less upfront burst for more dots.

Savos_Saren

On an average build for MagPlars- what is the damage? 14k? If we're seeing 18k Spectral Bow/Whips/Frags- I'd think that the 14k could be bumped a *tad* (since it is spammable- yet has a 1 sec cast time). Would a 1k increase be better?

Minno

Savos_Saren wrote: »

On an average build for MagPlars- what is the damage? 14k? If we're seeing 18k Spectral Bow/Whips/Frags- I'd think that the 14k could be bumped a *tad* (since it is spammable- yet has a 1 sec cast time). Would a 1k increase be better?

Cinbri said it best, why should this skill still be a cast time mechanic when similar AOE defile mechanics are instant cast.
They could have this be instant cast, with the arc and it will still be balanced at 14k because it doesnt have the utility that other instant cast attacks do have.

But what might happen instead, is in ZOS' great "audit" crusade, nerf things like destro reach, force pulse, heroic slash, etc. So more of the flat consistency changes and less "flare" the community wants. Bad times ahead lol.

Savos_Saren

Minno wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

On an average build for MagPlars- what is the damage? 14k? If we're seeing 18k Spectral Bow/Whips/Frags- I'd think that the 14k could be bumped a *tad* (since it is spammable- yet has a 1 sec cast time). Would a 1k increase be better?

Cinbri said it best, why should this skill still be a cast time mechanic when similar AOE defile mechanics are instant cast.
They could have this be instant cast, with the arc and it will still be balanced at 14k because it doesnt have the utility that other instant cast attacks do have.

But what might happen instead, is in ZOS' great "audit" crusade, nerf things like destro reach, force pulse, heroic slash, etc. So more of the flat consistency changes and less "flare" the community wants. Bad times ahead lol.

@Minno

I'm trying to think of the AOE defiles that are similar. DK Standard = 250 cost ultimate and not ranged. SnB: single target melee defile. Bow no longer has a ranged major defile. Sorc has nothing. Warden's AOE defile doesn't do damage. NB's incap doesn't defile anymore.

Necro's AOE defile is a skeleton that isn't "spammable", per se... but I'd say that it's the closest to a ranged, AOE, damaging defile, right?

Don't get me wrong- I like the skill (and I've built my "DarkPlar" completely around it)- but I don't see any skills like it (except maybe the necro).

...I still think the 37% nerf was too much. But I can see why they tried to degrade it a bit. Though, it's still hard as *** to cast in PVP.

What would you think about every 4th cast (whether it's dodged or not) of Dark Flare doing 20% more damage? That way, it has a "proc" mechanic like Frags/Spectral Bow/Whip/Flaming Skulls. I say fourth cast because it is somewhat spammable but with a 1 sec cast time.

That way, Templars could maintain a high damaging skill with the global ruleset that other classes have to follow.


Edited for a suggestion.

maxjapank

I doubt you’ll see much Dark Flare use in pvp. I barely ever saw it before this patch. Maybe once every 2 months. And nothing has really changed. It’s just become weaker. Some (non-Templars) think differently, but most fights are going to be in close quarters. You’re not going to get a Dark Flare off without being cc’d or bashed. And their are easier ways to defile through gear. A proc chance to instant cast would be a welcome change. Maybe like necros in every 3rd cast of a Dawn’s wrath ability. But I see no changes for Templars in the near future. This was it for the next year.

Minno

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

On an average build for MagPlars- what is the damage? 14k? If we're seeing 18k Spectral Bow/Whips/Frags- I'd think that the 14k could be bumped a *tad* (since it is spammable- yet has a 1 sec cast time). Would a 1k increase be better?

Cinbri said it best, why should this skill still be a cast time mechanic when similar AOE defile mechanics are instant cast.
They could have this be instant cast, with the arc and it will still be balanced at 14k because it doesnt have the utility that other instant cast attacks do have.

But what might happen instead, is in ZOS' great "audit" crusade, nerf things like destro reach, force pulse, heroic slash, etc. So more of the flat consistency changes and less "flare" the community wants. Bad times ahead lol.

@Minno

I'm trying to think of the AOE defiles that are similar. DK Standard = 250 cost ultimate and not ranged. SnB: single target melee defile. Bow no longer has a ranged major defile. Sorc has nothing. Warden's AOE defile doesn't do damage. NB's incap doesn't defile anymore.

Necro's AOE defile is a skeleton that isn't "spammable", per se... but I'd say that it's the closest to a ranged, AOE, damaging defile, right?

Don't get me wrong- I like the skill (and I've built my "DarkPlar" completely around it)- but I don't see any skills like it (except maybe the necro).

...I still think the 37% nerf was too much. But I can see why they tried to degrade it a bit. Though, it's still hard as *** to cast in PVP.

What would you think about every 4th cast (whether it's dodged or not) of Dark Flare doing 20% more damage? That way, it has a "proc" mechanic like Frags/Spectral Bow/Whip/Flaming Skulls. I say fourth cast because it is somewhat spammable but with a 1 sec cast time.

That way, Templars could maintain a high damaging skill with the global ruleset that other classes have to follow.


Edited for a suggestion.

that does make sense. Wardens AOE is the closest comparison, while it does no dmg, it does heal and has a synergy that heals. The heal tooltip is almost identical to the dmg of DF.

Its hard. I think the right solution is to return the 20% dmg on other skill mechanic that made it's use popular in 1.6. So after you cast it, you can follow up with a heavy ultimate. That is my suggestion.

Savos_Saren

@Joy_Division

Can you make my suggestion (in comment #42) to the Devs? I think it would allow Templars a powerful burst (while adhering to the same proc dynamic that most classes have).

Savos_Saren

maxjapank wrote: »

I doubt you’ll see much Dark Flare use in pvp. I barely ever saw it before this patch. Maybe once every 2 months. And nothing has really changed. It’s just become weaker. Some (non-Templars) think differently, but most fights are going to be in close quarters. You’re not going to get a Dark Flare off without being cc’d or bashed. And their are easier ways to defile through gear. A proc chance to instant cast would be a welcome change. Maybe like necros in every 3rd cast of a Dawn’s wrath ability. But I see no changes for Templars in the near future. This was it for the next year.

@maxjapank

You're right. It's dreadfully slow- that's why I want to give it have decent damage. I've tested mine (it's a ~15k dark flare) and it's still a looooooong animation... even against NPCs.

Toc de Malsvi

Savos_Saren wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

I doubt you’ll see much Dark Flare use in pvp. I barely ever saw it before this patch. Maybe once every 2 months. And nothing has really changed. It’s just become weaker. Some (non-Templars) think differently, but most fights are going to be in close quarters. You’re not going to get a Dark Flare off without being cc’d or bashed. And their are easier ways to defile through gear. A proc chance to instant cast would be a welcome change. Maybe like necros in every 3rd cast of a Dawn’s wrath ability. But I see no changes for Templars in the near future. This was it for the next year.

@maxjapank

You're right. It's dreadfully slow- that's why I want to give it have decent damage. I've tested mine (it's a ~15k dark flare) and it's still a looooooong animation... even against NPCs.

This is the same issue with all cast time skills.

What has made Snipe work effectively is a little more range+cloak+cast from stealth. Otherwise its just as weak from the slow cast leading to vulnerable state.

The state of these cast time skills is either spam from the back of a group as a Xv1, gank, or be laughed at by most of the top end crowd. I have spent quite a lot of time working on builds for Snipe that are not gank builds. It works to some limited extent, but its very weak to counters. I don't beat top end players more than 1-2 times before they figure out how to counter it every time.

Cast time skills behave worse in lag than instant cast skills and leave you far more vulnerable. Ask any sorc to hard cast frags and notice the response, its very telling. At best it was high risk high reward, now its high risk low reward.

EtTuBrutus

The argument shouldn't be about spamming. If youre not weaving youre not a good player and really what you do doesn't matter bc it's not competitive.

Drdeath20

Why bother? Its pure futility

StarOfElyon

I gave up on DF. Solar Barrage in melee range is more useful.