Dragonknight Changes - My Suggestions

Ryanoxx

There are many balance changes this patch and I appreciate that. However, I think we still need many adjustments, not only for Dk but since I play multiple classes and MagDk is one of my favorite Classes due to the animations I wanna adress some issues, give viable solutions and ask you for your opinion on it. Not everyone has to agree with me and I didn't do the calculation for my suggestions exept some ruff estimations. I'll give the name of the Morph or Passive and my suggestions, as well as add an explanation from time to time why I'd change it.


Ardent Flame

• Molten Whip: Rename this Morph to Poison Lash, making it deal X Poison Damage and setting immobile or stunned enemies Off Balance.
  
  The current Molten Whip has too much burst in PvP. A Poison Lash would give StamDks the desired spammable and gives StamDks more class identity. To keep MagDks viable in PvE the Damage overall should be slightly increased without putting too much damage on one ability or giving MagDks too much burst in PvP. Read the following suggestions for more information on how I would give them good Dps without breaking PvP.

• Flame Lash: Reduce the healing from Powerlash by 10%. Flame Lash stays dodgable but the Power Lash proc is undodgable.
  
  Offensive abilities shouldn't have too much defensive power. Making the proc undodgable ensures that MagDks burst can't be completely avoided.

• Flames of Oblivion: The damage should increase by 5% with every launch until the ability is recasted.
  
  This would make up a little of the damage loss from Molten Whip but wouldn't provide too much burst.

• Cauterize: Every time the fireball launches it should remove a harmful effect in addition to the healing.
  
  This change is needed if Flames of Oblivion changes to keep it relevant.

• Combustion: Increase the ressources restored to 750 from 500.
  
  Dks have the worst sustain at the moment. This change together with the Mountain's Blessing change (look into the Earthen Heart section) would adjust Dks sustain to be similar to other classes.

• Searing Heat: This passive should increase the damage of Fiery Breath, Searing Strike and Dragonknight Standard abilities by 5% instead of 3% as well as their duration by 2 seconds. It also increases your flame damage against enemies below 25% health by 15%.
  
  This passive only provides 3% more damage on 3 abilities and increases their duration by 2 seconds. Bringing the 3% up to 5% would give this passive more value and help Dks to do better in PvE. MagDks lack an execute. Giving them this passive would help them reaching similar Dps to their stamina meele competitors.

• World in Ruin: Instead of increasing the damage of your Flame area of effect abilities by 6% and reducing the cost of your Stamina Poison abilities by 25% it should increase your Fire Damage by 6% and reduce the cost of your Stamina Poison abilities by 10%.
  
  The 6% damage increase for all Fire Damage would help MagDks Dps to make up for the Molten Whip loss. Reducing the costreduction from the passive helps keeping StamDks balanced. They gain strengh with the changes I intend so they wouldn't actually get weaker overall.

Draconic Power

• Coagulating Blood: The healing should increase up to 25% instead of increasing up to 33%.
  
  The heal of Coagulating Blood was buffed to bring it on one level with other healing abilities. With the 33% increase you can reach 12k+ Coagulating Bloods in PvP which is too high. Bringing down the healingpower a little bit gives other Classes a better chance to kill a Dragonknight.

• Deep Breath: The second hit deals 5% increased damage per enemy hit.
  
  This would give Inhale a sustain and a damage focused morph. It would also help to bring MagDk closer to the 1vX potential of other classes. I needs better Aoe damage since it lacks mobility to do good in PvP.

• Elder Dragon: Increase the range the Passive adds to meele attacks to 3 meters from 2 meters and remove the healthrecovery bonus. Instead give a flat heal of 500 health times the amount of Draconic Power abilities slotted which procs when taking damage. This should have a 5 seconds cooldown.
  
  Since Roots have a Cooldown it is harder to keep your enemies in range. The healthrecovery only helps heavyarmor builds, making it a flat heal would give lightarmor builds a benefit as well.

• Scaled Amor: Instead of increasing your Spell Resistance by 3300 this Passive should increase Spell and Physical Resistance by 1980.
  
  With the current Passive it is easy to stack tons of Spell Resistance, making it possible to reach the Spell Resistance Cap in lightarmor without investing too much into it. Reducing the amount of Resistance and adding Physical Resistance instead gives Dragonknights a more balanced damagereduction and would give Magicka Users better damage against Dragonknights.

Earthen Heart

• Igneous Weapons: In addition to the Major Sorcery and Major Brutality this morph should, while being active, increase your Weapon and Spelldamage by 75 every time you activate a class ability. This bonus could stack up to 3 times and would last for 5 seconds.
  
  This change would give this ability a purpose. Right now it is better to run Spellpower Potions or Entropie to get the Major Sorcery and Momentum or Weaponpower Potions to get Major Brutality. Adding a bonus similar to the (due to the Poison Lash missing) Seething Fury bonus from Molten Whip would make this ability interesting to use.

• Shattering Rocks: Make the heal scale with the players, not enemies stats.

• Corrosive Armor: Instead of ignoring all of the Targets Physical Resistance it should ignore 33% of the Targets Physical Resistances in addition to the Users Physical Penetration.
  
  As I mentioned for the Powerlash, an ability shouldn't have too much defensive and offensive power at once. Bringing down the offensive power of corrosive would bring it on one level with other abilities. StamDks would still reach a lot of Physical Penetration with it because their Physical Penetration would work in addition to the effect of the Ultimate. This way it stays interesting and useful.

• Mountain's Blessing: Increase the ultimate generated by this passive to 5 ultimate instead of 3 and decrease the cooldown to 5 seconds.
  
  This would help Dks bad sustain in harmony with their classdefining Passive Battle Roar. It would also help Dks Dps while not breaking PvP.

What do you think about my ideas and what adjustments would you think of?

It would be cool if Zenimax could take a look at this because it took some time to work on it @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam


Edit:

After some discussion I changed Cauterize.

Cauterize (15 second duration)
Activate an aura of flames which launches a fireball at an ally to cauterize their wounds every 5 seconds, healing them for 660 Health and removing one harmful effect.

If an ally drops below 30% health the fireball launches immediately at the ally and the ability ends.

While slotted, you gain Major Prophecy, increasing your Spell Critical rating by 2191.

[Ally includes the player using the skill]

I also adjusted the Mountain's Blessing Passive by reducing the cooldown by 1 second, the Power Lash ability by making the proc undodgable and the Searing Heat Passive by increasing the Fire Damage against targets below 25% health. I also adjusted Deep Breath to make it a damage morph and Draw Essence a sustain morph.

Zavijah

I do think Stam DK needs more class abilities as morphs. It''s a huge draw card for why I like playing Mag DK.

I'm not opposed to any of your suggestions and think them reasonable.

Xvorg

Whip is a bad spammable... I still think poison whip will be worse than puncture, heroic or whirlwind blades. Even the new flurry is much better.

MDKs use whip just because there's no other melee magicka skill. Make pierce armor a magicka skill and no DK would ever use whip.

zParallaxz

Most of the changes you listed are good but what dk only needs is A LOT OF SUSTAIN, a spammable for stam dks, move the seething fury off of molten whip and into a passive, and mobility that isn’t tied to chains. After that dks can live without having to ask for anything else other than a few passive tweaks next patch like elder dragon passive.

Ryanoxx

Xvorg wrote: »

Whip is a bad spammable... I still think poison whip will be worse than puncture, heroic or whirlwind blades. Even the new flurry is much better.

MDKs use whip just because there's no other melee magicka skill. Make pierce armor a magicka skill and no DK would ever use whip.

Thats not true, in PvE Stamdks use Noxious Breath as spammable in the current state of Pts. Even if Pierce Armor was a magicka skill there would be no reason to run it. I play MagDk since 2 years and I would not drop Whip. Powerlash provides good damage and even a heal. Whip is not a bad spammable. A Poison Whip would set enemies off balance so stamdks could use the truth set for example.

Ryanoxx

zParallaxz wrote: »

Most of the changes you listed are good but what dk only needs is A LOT OF SUSTAIN, a spammable for stam dks, move the seething fury off of molten whip and into a passive, and mobility that isn’t tied to chains. After that dks can live without having to ask for anything else other than a few passive tweaks next patch like elder dragon passive.

I agree with some of your points. I mentioned sustain in my post tho if you read the spoilers. I also mentioned a spammable for stamDks as well as seething fury off of Molten Whipe because it would change to a Poison Lash and put it on a not used ability to make it more attractive. I'm fine with the mobility part since Race Against Time was changed because asking for more would be overkill for the Dk playstyle. I also mentioned changes for Passives like the Elder Dragon Passive ^^ Make sure to read through it all and don't forget to read the Spoilers for explanations why.

Arcanasx

"Molten Armaments: Instead of increasing the damage of fully-charged Heavy Attacks this morph should, while being active, increase your Weapon and Spelldamage by 75 every time you activate a class ability. This bonus could stack up to 3 times and would last for 5 seconds."

"This change would give this ability a purpose. Right now it is better to run Spellpower Potions or Entropie to get the Major Sorcery. Adding a bonus similar to the (due to the Poison Lash missing) Seething Fury bonus from Molten Whip would make this ability interesting to use."

This is a terrible change. Not only would you be taking away a very unique skill available to DKs that like to use heavy attacks, but literally slotting this just so you can activate this and do a little more weapon/magic damage with no other effect would be extremely dull.

Having to use a spellpower potion for major sorcery takes away potion options such as tri pots for mDKs. And entropy does not proc earthen heart passives which molten armaments currently does. Just because you don't use molten armaments doesn't mean that others are not using it.

Ryanoxx

Arcanasx wrote: »

"Molten Armaments: Instead of increasing the damage of fully-charged Heavy Attacks this morph should, while being active, increase your Weapon and Spelldamage by 75 every time you activate a class ability. This bonus could stack up to 3 times and would last for 5 seconds."

"This change would give this ability a purpose. Right now it is better to run Spellpower Potions or Entropie to get the Major Sorcery. Adding a bonus similar to the (due to the Poison Lash missing) Seething Fury bonus from Molten Whip would make this ability interesting to use."

This is a terrible change. Not only would you be taking away a very unique skill available to DKs that like to use heavy attacks, but literally slotting this just so you can activate this and do a little more weapon/magic damage with no other effect would be extremely dull.

Having to use a spellpower potion for major sorcery takes away potion options such as tri pots for mDKs. And entropy does not proc earthen heart passives which molten armaments currently does. Just because you don't use molten armaments doesn't mean that others are not using it.

Who plays with fully-charged Heavy Attacks? It is completely ineffective and I've never seen someone using Molten Armaments. Yes it procs Helping Hands but just every 36 seconds which is pretty useless, it's a lot more realistic to use skills like Petrify or Obsidian Shield to proc the Passive. This ability would not have just that effect, I didn't say remove the Major Sorcery. I would give Major Sorcery and give u the additional bonus. This isn't dull, it makes a dead ability useful again. Molten Armaments costs 3 times as much as Entropie, doesn't give a 2% bonus to your maximum Magicka and magicka recovery. In addition Entropie procs Empower increasing the damage of the next lightattack by 40% which is a lot easier to use and also applies a little Dot. If you morph it you also gain a Heal or Healthbonus. Where is the reason to use Molten Armaments? Also Heavy Attacks have changed their purpose to restore ressources and not dealing huge damage. This ability just doesn't have a place in the game anymore. Using Spellpowerpotions is also the most normal thing in PvE. Noone would get the idea to run a Spellpower buff on their Skillbar because it would result in a lot less dmg. You could do that in Dungeons but not in Veteran Trials. Are you playing with Armaments?

juhislihis19

Ryanoxx wrote: »

There are many balance changes this patch and I appreciate that. However, I think we still need many adjustments, not only for Dk but since I play multiple classes and MagDk is one of my favorite Classes due to the animations I wanna adress some issues, give viable solutions and ask you for your opinion on it. Not everyone has to agree with me and I didn't do the calculation for my suggestions exept some ruff estimations. I'll give the name of the Morph or Passive and my suggestions, as well as add an explanation from time to time why I'd change it.


Ardent Flame

• Flames of Oblivion: The damage should increase by 5% with every launch until the ability is recasted.
  
  This would make up a little of the damage loss from Molten Whip but wouldn't provide too much burst.

Could this skill deal Physical/Poison Damage if it scales from stamina? Right now it deals Flame Damage for both.


I really appreciate your effort. However, IMO I'm not sure if we need a spammable. It would be great, honestly, but I would be happy with just more stamina morphs into ie. Spiked Armor, Igneous Weapons and Inhale.

Volatile Armor 2700 Stamina
Release your inner dragon to gain Major Resolve and Major Ward, increasing Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 5280 for 20 seconds. You also release a spray of spikes around you, causing any enemies hit to take 954 Poison Damage over 10 seconds or grants Minor Endurance

phantasmalD

Ryanoxx wrote: »

• Cauterize: Every time the fireball launches it should remove a harmful effect in addition to the healing.
  
  This change is needed if Flames of Oblivion changes to keep it relevant.

A change to Cauterize is needed anyway as it's completely irrelevant as it is and this is kind of a step in the right direction (one that I kinda never considered tbh and I'm not 100% sure if DKs really should have a class purge but I'd like it) but it's not really enough.

The crit boost aspect is completely irrelevant due to how absolutely overloaded Inner Light (Mage's Guild) is.
Inner Light gives Major Prophecy, 7% max mag and 2% mag recovery. It's so good that most magicka builds double slot it and it's an absolute must have.
On a healer build you can get away with single baring it tho imo but should still slot it as it's ~3k free magicka.
ALSO, Major Prophecy can be acquired from Spell Power potions as well.

And as a HoT Cauterize is in direct competition with Mutagen and fails miserably.
For the same cost Mutagen provides 2x [15k + 5k burst panic heal and 1 purge]. That's 40k heal and 2 purge potential.

Cauterize offers 3x5k (~1/3 healing potential), it ticks really slowly (1 tick/5 seconds), doesn't even target the lowest health ally and the only extra benefit is a redundant buff.

it could be something like this:
5 ticks of 3k heal over 15s
If a nearby ally drops below 35%, immediately fire a ball at them, healing for 5k and cleansing 2 harmful effect.

But that would maybe too similar to Mutagen so perhaps it could provide some different kind of buff, like 6s of 4k shield or something, tho imo it's good purge that a DK healer's kit is really lacking.

But either way, Cauterize really needs a big buff to be worthwhile.

Ryanoxx

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

There are many balance changes this patch and I appreciate that. However, I think we still need many adjustments, not only for Dk but since I play multiple classes and MagDk is one of my favorite Classes due to the animations I wanna adress some issues, give viable solutions and ask you for your opinion on it. Not everyone has to agree with me and I didn't do the calculation for my suggestions exept some ruff estimations. I'll give the name of the Morph or Passive and my suggestions, as well as add an explanation from time to time why I'd change it.


Ardent Flame

• Flames of Oblivion: The damage should increase by 5% with every launch until the ability is recasted.
  
  This would make up a little of the damage loss from Molten Whip but wouldn't provide too much burst.

Could this skill deal Physical/Poison Damage if it scales from stamina? Right now it deals Flame Damage for both.


I really appreciate your effort. However, IMO I'm not sure if we need a spammable. It would be great, honestly, but I would be happy with just more stamina morphs into ie. Spiked Armor, Igneous Weapons and Inhale.

Volatile Armor 2700 Stamina
Release your inner dragon to gain Major Resolve and Major Ward, increasing Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 5280 for 20 seconds. You also release a spray of spikes around you, causing any enemies hit to take 954 Poison Damage over 10 seconds or grants Minor Endurance

The problem with making Flames of Oblivion Poison Damage is that it would increase StamDks Dps and reduce MagDks Dps. MagDks already have really low Dps and the current Molten Whip isn't a good way to solve this issue. Giving StamDks a Spammable would open many more options for them to build. Igneous Weapons has a morph that provides Major Brutality. It is actually better to have magicka cost on it for StamDks. However, this skill is just dead. It's too expensive and provides the same buff as Momentum just without any bonuses. Momentum is just a lot stronger. Thats why I want a change for this skill. A possibility would be to split the bonus I talked about into one ability that costs stam and gives u Major Brutality and increases your Weapon Damage up to 3 times if you use a Class Ability and one Morph that costs magicka and gives Major Sorcery and increases your Spell Damage up to 3 times if you use a Class Ability. A stamina morph of Spiked Armor would be a possibility as well. I give them both the same effect though, one being magicka and dealing Magic Damage and one being stamina which deals Physical Damage. Making it Poison and Flame Damage would be overkill tbh. The damage return is pretty decent and more important than the DoT. Giving Inhale a stamina morph would be a little more difficult though. It doesn't fit into the stamina playstyle and it would be easy to make it too strong or useless. Gotta be careful with this one.

Ryanoxx

phantasmalD wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

• Cauterize: Every time the fireball launches it should remove a harmful effect in addition to the healing.
  
  This change is needed if Flames of Oblivion changes to keep it relevant.

A change to Cauterize is needed anyway as it's completely irrelevant as it is and this is kind of a step in the right direction (one that I kinda never considered tbh and I'm not 100% sure if DKs really should have a class purge but I'd like it) but it's not really enough.

The crit boost aspect is completely irrelevant due to how absolutely overloaded Inner Light (Mage's Guild) is.
Inner Light gives Major Prophecy, 7% max mag and 2% mag recovery. It's so good that most magicka builds double slot it and it's an absolute must have.
On a healer build you can get away with single baring it tho imo but should still slot it as it's ~3k free magicka.
ALSO, Major Prophecy can be acquired from Spell Power potions as well.

And as a HoT Cauterize is in direct competition with Mutagen and fails miserably.
For the same cost Mutagen provides 2x [15k + 5k burst panic heal and 1 purge]. That's 40k heal and 2 purge potential.

Cauterize offers 3x5k (~1/3 healing potential), it ticks really slowly (1 tick/5 seconds), doesn't even target the lowest health ally and the only extra benefit is a redundant buff.

it could be something like this:
5 ticks of 3k heal over 15s
If a nearby ally drops below 35%, immediately fire a ball at them, healing for 5k and cleansing 2 harmful effect.

But that would maybe too similar to Mutagen so perhaps it could provide some different kind of buff, like 6s of 4k shield or something, tho imo it's good purge that a DK healer's kit is really lacking.

But either way, Cauterize really needs a big buff to be worthwhile.

Thank you for taking your time to give this answer. I understand your point but I think that buffing the healing of Cauterize would be overkill. There already is much healing in the game. I play MagDk myself and have tested it on Pts. In lightarmor I get 12k Dragonbloods and Cauterize doesn't do a lot, yes! But giving it a purge on every ability would already make it more interesting. If it would be purging 2 effects it would be too strong though because it runs for 15 seconds. If it would purge two negative effects everyone would just spam it to get the purge from the first hit while if it just removes one negative it would make more sense to let it run for its full duration. Instead of making it tik more often the heal could be increased slightly (I'm talking less than 15%) and the purge added. I think it is always better to make smaller changes and see how they play out. Zenimax often tends to nerf something too much of buff something to heaven. I appreciate their approch because they address current problems but they bring up new problems the way they're solving them. Thats why I opened this thread so we can help them I think giving it a shield wouldn't be the right thing to do because it doesn't make sense to combine the heal with a shield. I get your point here though. Igneous Shield is the only reliable shield Dks have and it scales with your health which doesn't work out for a Dk Healer. I also wouldn't slot Inner Light in PvP. It is definitly needed in PvE and is very important for magicka Dps and also good to have for Healers if they have a skillslot for it. The Major Prophecy is needed for PvP though since slotting Inner Light isn't an option as long as you don't replace Cauterize with it which currently happens more often than it should because the effect of Cauterize is so small. Also a 3 times burst heal should be less than a HoT because it is more powerful. You did the math though and I was too lazy for it so it might need the changes you adress. I would go slow though and test little changes on Pts and go further after we know how it works out. A skill setup shouldn't be an easy choice. Every skill should be attractive and have a purpose. We do not only need this for Dks. Maybe I'll do one for Sorcerers too if someone asks for it or if I have time and ideas for it.

Ragnarock41

Hey, honestly I would take that corrosive nerf for some actually good passive changes+ stam spammable. I feel the same way about having a few abilities being too overloaded. Corrosive armor currently feels neccessary for stamDk. It wouldn't be the case If I could drop SnB and build more bursty.

As for world in ruin I think making it %4-8 physical cost reduction instead of the current %25 poison CR sounds more healthy and will let the class use more weapon skills , which also helps with stamDks using freaking noxious breath as spammable in PvE.(thus preventing an unneccary nerf to nox, Its in line with abilities like carve.)

Edit. Also if stamwhip ever happens, it should get its unique animation, so stamwhip shouldn't just be a green whip. Cause that is the magicka Dk's identity. sDk should have more of a ''fighter'' theme.

Ryanoxx

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Hey, honestly I would take that corrosive nerf for some actually good passive changes+ stam spammable. I feel the same way about having a few abilities being too overloaded, as for world in ruin I think making it %4-8 physical cost reduction instead of the current %25 poison CR sounds more healthy and will let the class use more weapon skills too.

Edit. Also if stamwhip ever happens, it should get its unique animation, so stamwhip shouldn't just be a green whip. Cause that is the magicka Dk's identity. sDk should have more of a ''fighter'' theme.

Idk about animations but yea.

Ragnarock41

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Hey, honestly I would take that corrosive nerf for some actually good passive changes+ stam spammable. I feel the same way about having a few abilities being too overloaded, as for world in ruin I think making it %4-8 physical cost reduction instead of the current %25 poison CR sounds more healthy and will let the class use more weapon skills too.

Edit. Also if stamwhip ever happens, it should get its unique animation, so stamwhip shouldn't just be a green whip. Cause that is the magicka Dk's identity. sDk should have more of a ''fighter'' theme.

Idk about animations but yea.

Its to keep sDk feel different than magDk. magDK is a pyromancer so the flame lash makes sense. I don't think a green whip makes a lot of sense. What would that make me? A poisonmancer?

I'm thinking of something like a flail swing, or that sort of thing. Should be unique, you should look at it and see, yep, totally a stamDk. Kinda like how hurricane makes it very clear your opponent is a stamsorc.

phantasmalD

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Thank you for taking your time to give this answer. I understand your point but I think that buffing the healing of Cauterize would be overkill.

Sorry, but aren't you contradicting yourself? Later on you say:

Instead of making it tik more often the heal could be increased slightly (I'm talking less than 15%) and the purge added.

There already is much healing in the game.

But there's limited barspace. This doesn't really increase the amount of healing that's in the game as you have to unslot something else to be able to use it, just makes it worthwhile to slot an otherwise dead skill.

I play MagDk myself and have tested it on Pts. In lightarmor I get 12k Dragonbloods and Cauterize doesn't do a lot, yes! But giving it a purge on every ability would already make it more interesting. If it would be purging 2 effects it would be too strong though because it runs for 15 seconds. If it would purge two negative effects everyone would just spam it to get the purge from the first hit while if it just removes one negative it would make more sense to let it run for its full duration

I specifically tried to word it to avoid that. First of all, it requires the target to be on low health (tho perhaps the threshold is a bit too high). If you get healed above the treshold you won't get the double purge again. But there could also be a CD to completely avoid this.
And secondly, I explicitly used the word 'ally' to indicate you can't target yourself with the burst. So there's no incentive to spam it as a self-heal.
Also, the spell is not guaranteed to target you, like ever. If you are in a full Cyrodiil raid that's 23 people+their pets that could steal your purge/heal.
Additionally, I forget to say it in the previous post but part of the idea was that the skill would work on a charge system: When you activate the skill you get 5-6 charges: Every panic heal and 3s tick consumes 1 charge.

I appreciate their approch because they address current problems but they bring up new problems the way they're solving them.

I mean that's the point of a discussion. To highlight the problems of other people's ideas. :>

I think giving it a shield wouldn't be the right thing to do because it doesn't make sense to combine the heal with a shield.

There are already skills and sets that do this.

Healing Ward, Life Giver, Reviving Barrier are straight up shield + healing.
Bone Surge gives Major Vitality which is increased healing received, so sorta counts.
Absorb Magic is technically not a shield but practically works the same, absorbs damage from a projectile and heals for a set amount.
Magma Shell and Ferocious Leap also kinda combine the two but that's mainly due to Battle Roar.

Sets like Combat Physician and Prayer Shawl also combine healing with wards.

I get your point here though. Igneous Shield is the only reliable shield Dks have and it scales with your health which doesn't work out for a Dk Healer.

Precisely. There's also the problem that two source of Igneous Shield overrides each other, so a DK healer *** over a DK tank.

The unique flavour of DK healers could be 'preventing damage on allies with wards' but they only have two skills that really do that (Obsidian Shield and Magma Armor) and both are very lackluster, overshadowed by generic non-class skills. (Bone Surge and Barrier respectively) But that's a different issue altogether.
A third skill that gives shield to allies could help enforcing the idea of shielding your allies giving a solidified identity to DK healers that they sorely lack due to bad and lackluster skills and the more I think about the more I prefer this over a purge. Leave heavy purging for Templars.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler and combat team, please consider taking a look at ally-shield gameplay for DKs.

I also wouldn't slot Inner Light in PvP. It is definitly needed in PvE and is very important for magicka Dps and also good to have for Healers if they have a skillslot for it.

The active effect of Inner Light is only useful for PvP so it's pretty much meant to be slotted in Cyrodiil.

Also a 3 times burst heal should be less than a HoT because it is more powerful.

There is some truth to what you are saying but it's not entirely correct.

• Burst stronger than HoT?: Not quite. A HUUGE upside of HoT is that they are a potent source of triggers for on_heal events. Aka sets like Earthgore, Spell Power Cure, Combat Physician, Symphony of Blades; a HoT is a cheap and efficient way to check every second whether you met the proccing conditions or not.
• Burst healing is mainly jsut more showman-y. It's more impressive and visible to have your HP bar shooting up by 10k than just being slower at depleting.
• Cauterize is not really a burst, it tries to be a mix of HoT and burst and just ends up being the worst of both world.

There are very precise requirements for burst heals (in my opinion, at least)

• Heals for a really large chunk of health (generally ~9k, unbuffed)
• Targettable !! (usually the skill goes for the lowest health ally or says something like 'heals an ally in front of you' or in the case of Wardens you can literally target someone (Bursting Vines, Mushrooms)
• Quickly spammable for the full effect.
• Not really a reuirement but they usually come with a pretty strong, unique secondary effect, like a stun or ultimate generation.

One cauterize ball heals for about 50% of the normal burst heal, in my experience doesn't have clever targetting and can't be spammed for the full effect as the majority of the healing is delayed, so pretty much fails all of these points.

Additionally, in my experience the heal from Cauterize is either too late (due to only ticking every 5 seconds it can miss saving an ally by a second) or just pointless overhealing.

Every skill should be attractive and have a purpose.

Word.

Ryanoxx

So much too answer

phantasmalD wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Thank you for taking your time to give this answer. I understand your point but I think that buffing the healing of Cauterize would be overkill.

Sorry, but aren't you contradicting yourself? Later on you say:

Instead of making it tik more often the heal could be increased slightly (I'm talking less than 15%) and the purge added.

I didn't put that in good words indeed. What I meant there is too much healing, making it tik more often would give Dk too much healing overall. Making it a HoT would be an option but that wouldn't work with the idea of purge. The heal of the skill isn't as high right now so it could be increased slightly. Increasing it by 10% wouldn't make a too big difference. While it would tik every 5 seconds the enemy would still have a short time to burst you down. I hope that clears things up a little.

I'm sorry, I misunderstood your point there. I like the idea of charges, it's a good concept and could make the skill a lot more interesting.

And secondly, I explicitly used the word 'ally' to indicate you can't target yourself with the burst. So there's no incentive to spam it as a self-heal.
Also, the spell is not guaranteed to target you, like ever. If you are in a full Cyrodiil raid that's 23 people+their pets that could steal your purge/heal.

I'm rather talking from a smallscale (2-5 Players) and solo perspective. Cauterize actually targets me 90% of the time. I don't think this ability needs a burst mechanic since there much healing in the game already and it shouldn't replace burst heals like Dragonblood or Breath of Life.

There are already skills and sets that do this.

Healing Ward, Life Giver, Reviving Barrier are straight up shield + healing.
Bone Surge gives Major Vitality which is increased healing received, so sorta counts.
Absorb Magic is technically not a shield but practically works the same, absorbs damage from a projectile and heals for a set amount.
Magma Shell and Ferocious Leap also kinda combine the two but that's mainly due to Battle Roar.

Sets like Combat Physician and Prayer Shawl also combine healing with wards.

I can only agree with this, yes there are those abilities and sets and ultimates. However, the initial heal of Healing Ward was removed and it only heals if the shield doesn't get destroyed. I haven't seen players using Healing Ward in PvE yet and in PvP it doesn't last as long because players will bring the shield down before it can heal. In Zenimax words this is a rulebreaker. I want to seperate active abilities, ultimate and sets though because ultimates can't be used as often which is a reason to make them stronger than casual abilities which is the case with Live Giver and Barrier. They can't be used as often. Live Giver has a short duration and Barries has a high cost. This gives players the chance to kill a player using them because of the low uptime. Major Vitality combined with a shield is fine, see Igneous Shield. This is a buff and has to be combined with another ability that heals. Absorb Magic only absorbs projectiles so it isn't negating all damage. To use a Set that has an effect like this the player would have to give up another Set which would make it just fair if he gets a good effect out of it and these sets also have a cooldown as well as a requirement to proc the effect. The problem I see with giving Cauterize a Shield in addition is that a player could use it like Healing Ward when it had the initial heal. If someone gets in execute range they could just spam Cauterize avioding receiving further damage and heal to a point where they aren't in execute range anymore and just heal with their normal healing abilities. I hope this is understandable, if you have further questions please ask.

The unique flavour of DK healers could be 'preventing damage on allies with wards' but they only have two skills that really do that (Obsidian Shield and Magma Armor) and both are very lackluster, overshadowed by generic non-class skills. (Bone Surge and Barrier respectively) But that's a different issue altogether.
A third skill that gives shield to allies could help enforcing the idea of shielding your allies giving a solidified identity to DK healers that they sorely lack due to bad and lackluster skills and the more I think about the more I prefer this over a purge. Leave heavy purging for Templars.

I don't think there should be a third shield. The Igneous Shield morph could be adjusted though since it isn't as useful anymore. This way they could give Dks a more supportive role.

The active effect of Inner Light is only useful for PvP so it's pretty much meant to be slotted in Cyrodiil.

Thats not true, it is much more benefitial to use another damage skill or a defensive buff over inner light since the damage increase from the magicka isn't as high as for example Flames of Oblivion. The Major Prophecy is important in PvP too but it is obtained by Flames of Oblivion and Cauterize already so there is no need to slot Inner Light in PvP. Templars also receive crit from Spears as much as I know. Magblades and Magsorcs use Spellpower Potions for Major Sorcery and Major Prophecy in this Meta. There is no space for Inner Light in a smallscale group or for a solo player. Zerging is completely different and doesn't require Inner Light either. At least not in the orginized PvP groups. The active effect of Inner Light isn't used either. It is better to run Detection Potions instead of wasting a skill slot for Inner Light.

• Burst stronger than HoT?: Not quite. A HUUGE upside of HoT is that they are a potent source of triggers for on_heal events. Aka sets like Earthgore, Spell Power Cure, Combat Physician, Symphony of Blades; a HoT is a cheap and efficient way to check every second whether you met the proccing conditions or not.
• Burst healing is mainly jsut more showman-y. It's more impressive and visible to have your HP bar shooting up by 10k than just being slower at depleting.
• Cauterize is not really a burst, it tries to be a mix of HoT and burst and just ends up being the worst of both world.

Yes Cauterize is isn't a burst heal, neither it is a HoT. It is unique in that regard. The sets you are talking about are mainly used in PvE or not at all. Earthgore shouldn't have another HoT to proc it anyway. Burst heals are very important and not just impressive. In PvP if someone uses a combo against you, you don't have a chance to survive it unless you have a burst heal. Cauterize could safe you from Death if it is running while a HoT wouldn't help because it doesn't heal enough to avoid getting executed. This makes it stronger but right now it just doesn't heal much and DoTs would pretty much negate the healing. Thats why I think it would be good if it would remove one negative effect every time it launches.

One cauterize ball heals for about 50% of the normal burst heal, in my experience doesn't have clever targetting and can't be spammed for the full effect as the majority of the healing is delayed, so pretty much fails all of these points.

It actually only heals for about 40% of a burst heal, which makes sense tho because it is activated once and heals 3 times over 15 seconds. Yes the targetting doesn't work the way we would want it to work but that depends on the group size as well. Yes the majority of the healing is delayed why it's not a burst heal and I don't want it to be a burst heal. It has more healing at once than a HoT making it stronger for certain situations. Like you already said. It combines burst and HoT.

My design for it would look like this. It has slightly increased healing and removes one harmful effect and also has an effect similar to your burst mechanic.

Cauterize

Current Skill (Duration 15 seconds):
Activate an aura of flames which launches a fireball at an ally to cauterize their wounds every 5 seconds, healing them for 602 Health.

While slotted, you gain Major Prophecy, increasing your Spell Critical rating by 2191.

My suggestion (Duration 15 seconds):
Activate an aura of flames which launches a fireball at an ally to cauterize their wounds every 5 seconds, healing them for 660 Health and removing one harmful effect.

If an ally drops below 30% health the fireball launches immediately and the ability ends.

While slotted, you gain Major Prophecy, increasing your Spell Critical rating by 2191.

BlackMadara

@phantasmalD Cauterize ticks 4 times. Once on the initial cast, and then once every 5 seconds for the remaining 15 seconds, so 4 ticks in total. Its total amount healed to a single target has about a 20% higher scaling compared to Rapid Regen, the higher healing morph of Regeneration. The downside of Cauterize compared to Regeneration is that the latter applies to 2 targets. The upside is that one also gets Major Prophecy, which is can be useful depending on the build.

Also the pseudo-burst heal of cauterize can be useful in certain situations. For one, the initial cast granting a heal can be more useful than a normal HoT if used in the middle of combat, after already taking damage. Another, rather specific, example is one can cast Cauterize, cast mist form, and then the next tick of the heal will be granted once exiting mist form.

@Ryanoxx Very interesting suggestions. Why are you against offense and defense being tied together? Granted this shouldn't be the case for all skills, but some with certain proc conditions or ultimates, it seems to be fine.

Coagulating Blood has the tradeoff of getting that extremely high healing, higher than BoL, only at low hp. I think ZoS' skill audit took this into account. They set a standard for single target heals, and then add flavor to each one. Perhaps their standard should be lower? I am not sure, even full buffed, with Burning spell weave and infused spell damage glyph, the tooltip for my new Coagblood would be lower than a Templar with 500 less effective spell damage (SD + magicka/10.5). Only with a 10% modifier would coag outpace BoL, which I understand would come from the Burning Heart passive. I believe the essence of the DK is self healing.

Shattering rocks scales off your own stats for the heal.

Overall, very interesting and seemingly balanced suggestions.

Ryanoxx

BlackMadara wrote: »

@phantasmalD Cauterize ticks 4 times. Once on the initial cast, and then once every 5 seconds for the remaining 15 seconds, so 4 ticks in total. Its total amount healed to a single target has about a 20% higher scaling compared to Rapid Regen, the higher healing morph of Regeneration. The downside of Cauterize compared to Regeneration is that the latter applies to 2 targets. The upside is that one also gets Major Prophecy, which is can be useful depending on the build.

Also the pseudo-burst heal of cauterize can be useful in certain situations. For one, the initial cast granting a heal can be more useful than a normal HoT if used in the middle of combat, after already taking damage. Another, rather specific, example is one can cast Cauterize, cast mist form, and then the next tick of the heal will be granted once exiting mist form.

@Ryanoxx Very interesting suggestions. Why are you against offense and defense being tied together? Granted this shouldn't be the case for all skills, but some with certain proc conditions or ultimates, it seems to be fine.

Coagulating Blood has the tradeoff of getting that extremely high healing, higher than BoL, only at low hp. I think ZoS' skill audit took this into account. They set a standard for single target heals, and then add flavor to each one. Perhaps their standard should be lower? I am not sure, even full buffed, with Burning spell weave and infused spell damage glyph, the tooltip for my new Coagblood would be lower than a Templar with 500 less effective spell damage (SD + magicka/10.5). Only with a 10% modifier would coag outpace BoL, which I understand would come from the Burning Heart passive. I believe the essence of the DK is self healing.

Shattering rocks scales off your own stats for the heal.

Overall, very interesting and seemingly balanced suggestions.

Im against offense and defense being tied together on abilities like lash. I think the heal is important and makes the ability unique though it is too high at the moment. I like it because I play Dk myself but it's too high to be honest. Im fine with ultimates and sets combining defense and offense since they require dropping another set or have high ultimate cost or a short duration.

Coagulating blood has a lower tool but if you're at low health you get too much healing making it easy to outheal dmg combos of other players.

No Shattering Rocks doesnt scale off your own stats. Try it, if someone with lower magicka power hits u after being stunned by it or if a player with high magicka power hits u. It doesn't scale with your own stats. It shows that on the tool but its actually not the case.

BlackMadara

Ryanoxx wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

@phantasmalD Cauterize ticks 4 times. Once on the initial cast, and then once every 5 seconds for the remaining 15 seconds, so 4 ticks in total. Its total amount healed to a single target has about a 20% higher scaling compared to Rapid Regen, the higher healing morph of Regeneration. The downside of Cauterize compared to Regeneration is that the latter applies to 2 targets. The upside is that one also gets Major Prophecy, which is can be useful depending on the build.

Also the pseudo-burst heal of cauterize can be useful in certain situations. For one, the initial cast granting a heal can be more useful than a normal HoT if used in the middle of combat, after already taking damage. Another, rather specific, example is one can cast Cauterize, cast mist form, and then the next tick of the heal will be granted once exiting mist form.

@Ryanoxx Very interesting suggestions. Why are you against offense and defense being tied together? Granted this shouldn't be the case for all skills, but some with certain proc conditions or ultimates, it seems to be fine.

Coagulating Blood has the tradeoff of getting that extremely high healing, higher than BoL, only at low hp. I think ZoS' skill audit took this into account. They set a standard for single target heals, and then add flavor to each one. Perhaps their standard should be lower? I am not sure, even full buffed, with Burning spell weave and infused spell damage glyph, the tooltip for my new Coagblood would be lower than a Templar with 500 less effective spell damage (SD + magicka/10.5). Only with a 10% modifier would coag outpace BoL, which I understand would come from the Burning Heart passive. I believe the essence of the DK is self healing.

Shattering rocks scales off your own stats for the heal.

Overall, very interesting and seemingly balanced suggestions.

Im against offense and defense being tied together on abilities like lash. I think the heal is important and makes the ability unique though it is too high at the moment. I like it because I play Dk myself but it's too high to be honest. Im fine with ultimates and sets combining defense and offense since they require dropping another set or have high ultimate cost or a short duration.

Coagulating blood has a lower tool but if you're at low health you get too much healing making it easy to outheal dmg combos of other players.

No Shattering Rocks doesnt scale off your own stats. Try it, if someone with lower magicka power hits u after being stunned by it or if a player with high magicka power hits u. It doesn't scale with your own stats. It shows that on the tool but its actually not the case.

The power lash proc adds about 13% more damage. That is nice, but compared to other first procs it is low. I think that is why the heal is so high.

I particularly like that aspect of coag. A difference of opinion I suppose.

Perhaps that is why I always felt shattering rocks has low healing. I'll test it out, thanks

Xvorg

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Whip is a bad spammable... I still think poison whip will be worse than puncture, heroic or whirlwind blades. Even the new flurry is much better.

MDKs use whip just because there's no other melee magicka skill. Make pierce armor a magicka skill and no DK would ever use whip.

Thats not true, in PvE Stamdks use Noxious Breath as spammable in the current state of Pts. Even if Pierce Armor was a magicka skill there would be no reason to run it. I play MagDk since 2 years and I would not drop Whip. Powerlash provides good damage and even a heal. Whip is not a bad spammable. A Poison Whip would set enemies off balance so stamdks could use the truth set for example.

It is slow, it is dodgeable (telegraphed from the other side of tamriel) It depends of a very unreliable mechanic to do high dmg and a decent heal. Its proc has a cooldown (a very long one and the only one in the whole game), it is very expesive on a class that has problem with sustain. It is used by mDKs just because there's no other option, not because it is good. If elemental weapon was less clunky it would be a nice option, giving you extra magicka, or minor vulnerability/maim to the enemy

Regarding sDKs, the new noxious just do what it has to do, high dmg and applying major fracture, which makes claw hit harder. It seems as a much better option than poison whip will ever be... consider Noxious not only is undodgeable, but it's also quite helpful against NBs.

Flame Lash has gone from a good skill to a crappy skill in all the patches since Morrowind. It lost it free proc (which was not free in the first place since you needed to set the enemy off balance and that costs resources), it lost its stun, it was made dodgeable, it was given a cooldown and, due to a strange way of balancing things on ZoS side, its reach was reduced from 8 mts to 5 (7 if you have Elder Dragon). 5 nerfes in 2 or 3 patches. Oh, it got an increased heal (not very necesary on a class that already has 3 heals in the same line whip is located)

If you say whip is good, then you are playing pre-morrowind, which was a very good patch imho (and I would like to play it too).

On the bright side, whip looks cool, but nothing else.

So, Poison whip doing strong dmg... I don't think so... the sole idea implies to copy mDK playing style and what stam DKs needs is not that. What stam DK needs is a better synergy with weapon lines. Stam DK should be the Man-at-Arms of ESO (it is the Knight, for Talos' sake!!) and not the slow brother Kobra Khan (MotU reference btw)

phantasmalD

BlackMadara wrote: »

Cauterize ticks 4 times. Once on the initial cast, and then once every 5 seconds for the remaining 15 seconds, so 4 ticks in total

True, I did made a mistake there, the first tick is rather sneaky.

. Its total amount healed to a single target has about a 20% higher scaling compared to Rapid Regen, the higher healing morph of Regeneration.

Well, looking at the coefficents, it's about 13% better scaling

Rapid Regen IV- $1 = 0.267488 Magicka + 2.80879 SD + 70.9537 (Magicka, R2 = 0.999994, ratio = 10.50)
Cauterize IV - $1 = 0.0756981 Magicka + 0.795278 SD - 0.437058 (Magicka, R2 = 0.999999, ratio = 10.51)

4xCauterize ball/entire Rapid Regen
0.3027924/ 0.267488 = 1,13198

But that's assuming that all the balls hit the same target. Which pretty much requires only having one target.
More than one target and Cauterize rapidly drops in efficiency.

Also the pseudo-burst heal of cauterize can be useful in certain situations. For one, the initial cast granting a heal can be more useful than a normal HoT if used in the middle of combat, after already taking damage.

There are so many real burst healing skills for when you truly need to get a large burst of health.

Another, rather specific, example is one can cast Cauterize, cast mist form, and then the next tick of the heal will be granted once exiting mist form.

But that means you aren't running Inferno which is a pretty important part of DK burst damage, no?
And DKs have so much built-in self healing, why would you use a skill that's main purpose is to heal others over like Dragonblood, Ember spamming, Whip proccing, Battle Roar activation?

BlackMadara

phantasmalD wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Cauterize ticks 4 times. Once on the initial cast, and then once every 5 seconds for the remaining 15 seconds, so 4 ticks in total

True, I did made a mistake there, the first tick is rather sneaky.

. Its total amount healed to a single target has about a 20% higher scaling compared to Rapid Regen, the higher healing morph of Regeneration.

Well, looking at the coefficents, it's about 13% better scaling

Rapid Regen IV- $1 = 0.267488 Magicka + 2.80879 SD + 70.9537 (Magicka, R2 = 0.999994, ratio = 10.50)
Cauterize IV - $1 = 0.0756981 Magicka + 0.795278 SD - 0.437058 (Magicka, R2 = 0.999999, ratio = 10.51)

4xCauterize ball/entire Rapid Regen
0.3027924/ 0.267488 = 1,13198

But that's assuming that all the balls hit the same target. Which pretty much requires only having one target.
More than one target and Cauterize rapidly drops in efficiency.

Also the pseudo-burst heal of cauterize can be useful in certain situations. For one, the initial cast granting a heal can be more useful than a normal HoT if used in the middle of combat, after already taking damage.

There are so many real burst healing skills for when you truly need to get a large burst of health.

Another, rather specific, example is one can cast Cauterize, cast mist form, and then the next tick of the heal will be granted once exiting mist form.

But that means you aren't running Inferno which is a pretty important part of DK burst damage, no?
And DKs have so much built-in self healing, why would you use a skill that's main purpose is to heal others over like Dragonblood, Ember spamming, Whip proccing, Battle Roar activation?

I must've looked at the wrong numbers, you are correct on the 13% figure. Cauterize seems to target the lowest health ally, which can be annoying or useful at the same time. It is rather cheap. So you can spam it to assist an ally with a moderate heal.

I run coag blood as well, but the beauty of any HoT is that you can get healing while performing other actions. Cauterize in particular tops my healing done in all but the shortest fights. After testing it once, I'll never drop it from my bar again. Granted, its targeting could be improved.

I run a flame staff. Vamp nor cauterize lock you out from that option.

Overall I like cauterize, although it can cause me headaches. Rapid regen has a similar issue on the initial cast. It just randomly hits allies, so I might have to cast it multiple times to get the HoT myself. These skills need to their targeting fixed in general.

Ryanoxx

Xvorg wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Whip is a bad spammable... I still think poison whip will be worse than puncture, heroic or whirlwind blades. Even the new flurry is much better.

MDKs use whip just because there's no other melee magicka skill. Make pierce armor a magicka skill and no DK would ever use whip.

Thats not true, in PvE Stamdks use Noxious Breath as spammable in the current state of Pts. Even if Pierce Armor was a magicka skill there would be no reason to run it. I play MagDk since 2 years and I would not drop Whip. Powerlash provides good damage and even a heal. Whip is not a bad spammable. A Poison Whip would set enemies off balance so stamdks could use the truth set for example.

It is slow, it is dodgeable (telegraphed from the other side of tamriel) It depends of a very unreliable mechanic to do high dmg and a decent heal. Its proc has a cooldown (a very long one and the only one in the whole game), it is very expesive on a class that has problem with sustain. It is used by mDKs just because there's no other option, not because it is good. If elemental weapon was less clunky it would be a nice option, giving you extra magicka, or minor vulnerability/maim to the enemy

Regarding sDKs, the new noxious just do what it has to do, high dmg and applying major fracture, which makes claw hit harder. It seems as a much better option than poison whip will ever be... consider Noxious not only is undodgeable, but it's also quite helpful against NBs.

Flame Lash has gone from a good skill to a crappy skill in all the patches since Morrowind. It lost it free proc (which was not free in the first place since you needed to set the enemy off balance and that costs resources), it lost its stun, it was made dodgeable, it was given a cooldown and, due to a strange way of balancing things on ZoS side, its reach was reduced from 8 mts to 5 (7 if you have Elder Dragon). 5 nerfes in 2 or 3 patches. Oh, it got an increased heal (not very necesary on a class that already has 3 heals in the same line whip is located)

If you say whip is good, then you are playing pre-morrowind, which was a very good patch imho (and I would like to play it too).

On the bright side, whip looks cool, but nothing else.

So, Poison whip doing strong dmg... I don't think so... the sole idea implies to copy mDK playing style and what stam DKs needs is not that. What stam DK needs is a better synergy with weapon lines. Stam DK should be the Man-at-Arms of ESO (it is the Knight, for Talos' sake!!) and not the slow brother Kobra Khan (MotU reference btw)

Indeed the last time I played really active was in Homestead when MagDk was really strong. However, Whip is still a strong spammable. The heal gives a lot survivability even though the uptime isn't as high. For 1vX Flame Lash will still be better than Molten Whip for that reason. Other spammables don't even have the option to deal increased damage when an enemy is set off-balance. In that regard Flame Lash has an advantage. It is correct that it is fairly slow compared to other abilities which could definitly be improved. Spammables are dodgable, Whip isn't a exception. Noxious isn't a good spammable at all in PvP. It is really easy to avoid there isn't even a reason to dodge it. The only reason Noxious is helpful in PvP is because you can get Nbs out of cloak. Also the Passives I mentioned that should be changed would help Whip to do better. Whip is a spammable like Reach, Force Pulse, Elemental Weapon or Surprise Attack and shouldn't be stronger. Surprise Attack is a really strong spammable due to the physical penetration it gives. That doesn't mean though that Whip has to be on the same level as it because it is a completely different playstyle.

Davadin

Xvorg wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Whip is a bad spammable... I still think poison whip will be worse than puncture, heroic or whirlwind blades. Even the new flurry is much better.

MDKs use whip just because there's no other melee magicka skill. Make pierce armor a magicka skill and no DK would ever use whip.

Thats not true, in PvE Stamdks use Noxious Breath as spammable in the current state of Pts. Even if Pierce Armor was a magicka skill there would be no reason to run it. I play MagDk since 2 years and I would not drop Whip. Powerlash provides good damage and even a heal. Whip is not a bad spammable. A Poison Whip would set enemies off balance so stamdks could use the truth set for example.

...

Regarding sDKs, the new noxious just do what it has to do, high dmg and applying major fracture, which makes claw hit harder. It seems as a much better option than poison whip will ever be... consider Noxious not only is undodgeable, but it's also quite helpful against NBs.
...

so that's how it is in PTS for sDK?

Nox and claw on same bar with Whip slotted for passive, that's it?

Ryanoxx

Davadin wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Whip is a bad spammable... I still think poison whip will be worse than puncture, heroic or whirlwind blades. Even the new flurry is much better.

MDKs use whip just because there's no other melee magicka skill. Make pierce armor a magicka skill and no DK would ever use whip.

Thats not true, in PvE Stamdks use Noxious Breath as spammable in the current state of Pts. Even if Pierce Armor was a magicka skill there would be no reason to run it. I play MagDk since 2 years and I would not drop Whip. Powerlash provides good damage and even a heal. Whip is not a bad spammable. A Poison Whip would set enemies off balance so stamdks could use the truth set for example.

...

Regarding sDKs, the new noxious just do what it has to do, high dmg and applying major fracture, which makes claw hit harder. It seems as a much better option than poison whip will ever be... consider Noxious not only is undodgeable, but it's also quite helpful against NBs.
...

so that's how it is in PTS for sDK?

Nox and claw on same bar with Whip slotted for passive, that's it?

yes

Davadin

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Whip is a bad spammable... I still think poison whip will be worse than puncture, heroic or whirlwind blades. Even the new flurry is much better.

MDKs use whip just because there's no other melee magicka skill. Make pierce armor a magicka skill and no DK would ever use whip.

Thats not true, in PvE Stamdks use Noxious Breath as spammable in the current state of Pts. Even if Pierce Armor was a magicka skill there would be no reason to run it. I play MagDk since 2 years and I would not drop Whip. Powerlash provides good damage and even a heal. Whip is not a bad spammable. A Poison Whip would set enemies off balance so stamdks could use the truth set for example.

...

Regarding sDKs, the new noxious just do what it has to do, high dmg and applying major fracture, which makes claw hit harder. It seems as a much better option than poison whip will ever be... consider Noxious not only is undodgeable, but it's also quite helpful against NBs.
...

so that's how it is in PTS for sDK?

Nox and claw on same bar with Whip slotted for passive, that's it?

yes

zParallaxz

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Whip is a bad spammable... I still think poison whip will be worse than puncture, heroic or whirlwind blades. Even the new flurry is much better.

MDKs use whip just because there's no other melee magicka skill. Make pierce armor a magicka skill and no DK would ever use whip.

Thats not true, in PvE Stamdks use Noxious Breath as spammable in the current state of Pts. Even if Pierce Armor was a magicka skill there would be no reason to run it. I play MagDk since 2 years and I would not drop Whip. Powerlash provides good damage and even a heal. Whip is not a bad spammable. A Poison Whip would set enemies off balance so stamdks could use the truth set for example.

It is slow, it is dodgeable (telegraphed from the other side of tamriel) It depends of a very unreliable mechanic to do high dmg and a decent heal. Its proc has a cooldown (a very long one and the only one in the whole game), it is very expesive on a class that has problem with sustain. It is used by mDKs just because there's no other option, not because it is good. If elemental weapon was less clunky it would be a nice option, giving you extra magicka, or minor vulnerability/maim to the enemy

Regarding sDKs, the new noxious just do what it has to do, high dmg and applying major fracture, which makes claw hit harder. It seems as a much better option than poison whip will ever be... consider Noxious not only is undodgeable, but it's also quite helpful against NBs.

Flame Lash has gone from a good skill to a crappy skill in all the patches since Morrowind. It lost it free proc (which was not free in the first place since you needed to set the enemy off balance and that costs resources), it lost its stun, it was made dodgeable, it was given a cooldown and, due to a strange way of balancing things on ZoS side, its reach was reduced from 8 mts to 5 (7 if you have Elder Dragon). 5 nerfes in 2 or 3 patches. Oh, it got an increased heal (not very necesary on a class that already has 3 heals in the same line whip is located)

If you say whip is good, then you are playing pre-morrowind, which was a very good patch imho (and I would like to play it too).

On the bright side, whip looks cool, but nothing else.

So, Poison whip doing strong dmg... I don't think so... the sole idea implies to copy mDK playing style and what stam DKs needs is not that. What stam DK needs is a better synergy with weapon lines. Stam DK should be the Man-at-Arms of ESO (it is the Knight, for Talos' sake!!) and not the slow brother Kobra Khan (MotU reference btw)

Indeed the last time I played really active was in Homestead when MagDk was really strong. However, Whip is still a strong spammable. The heal gives a lot survivability even though the uptime isn't as high. For 1vX Flame Lash will still be better than Molten Whip for that reason. Other spammables don't even have the option to deal increased damage when an enemy is set off-balance. In that regard Flame Lash has an advantage. It is correct that it is fairly slow compared to other abilities which could definitly be improved. Spammables are dodgable, Whip isn't a exception. Noxious isn't a good spammable at all in PvP. It is really easy to avoid there isn't even a reason to dodge it. The only reason Noxious is helpful in PvP is because you can get Nbs out of cloak. Also the Passives I mentioned that should be changed would help Whip to do better. Whip is a spammable like Reach, Force Pulse, Elemental Weapon or Surprise Attack and shouldn't be stronger. Surprise Attack is a really strong spammable due to the physical penetration it gives. That doesn't mean though that Whip has to be on the same level as it because it is a completely different playstyle.

The reason flame lash needs to be undodgeable was because it required you to set someone off balance. As soon as you are set off balance by a dk, most competent people will immediately dodgeroll. It is tremendously hard to hit whip on a good stam player, as soon as you cc them they will dodgeroll. Only solution I see to this besides making it undodgeable is providing a passive that sets people off balance. As it is right now molten lash is the better option.

Ryanoxx

zParallaxz wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Whip is a bad spammable... I still think poison whip will be worse than puncture, heroic or whirlwind blades. Even the new flurry is much better.

MDKs use whip just because there's no other melee magicka skill. Make pierce armor a magicka skill and no DK would ever use whip.

Thats not true, in PvE Stamdks use Noxious Breath as spammable in the current state of Pts. Even if Pierce Armor was a magicka skill there would be no reason to run it. I play MagDk since 2 years and I would not drop Whip. Powerlash provides good damage and even a heal. Whip is not a bad spammable. A Poison Whip would set enemies off balance so stamdks could use the truth set for example.

It is slow, it is dodgeable (telegraphed from the other side of tamriel) It depends of a very unreliable mechanic to do high dmg and a decent heal. Its proc has a cooldown (a very long one and the only one in the whole game), it is very expesive on a class that has problem with sustain. It is used by mDKs just because there's no other option, not because it is good. If elemental weapon was less clunky it would be a nice option, giving you extra magicka, or minor vulnerability/maim to the enemy

Regarding sDKs, the new noxious just do what it has to do, high dmg and applying major fracture, which makes claw hit harder. It seems as a much better option than poison whip will ever be... consider Noxious not only is undodgeable, but it's also quite helpful against NBs.

Flame Lash has gone from a good skill to a crappy skill in all the patches since Morrowind. It lost it free proc (which was not free in the first place since you needed to set the enemy off balance and that costs resources), it lost its stun, it was made dodgeable, it was given a cooldown and, due to a strange way of balancing things on ZoS side, its reach was reduced from 8 mts to 5 (7 if you have Elder Dragon). 5 nerfes in 2 or 3 patches. Oh, it got an increased heal (not very necesary on a class that already has 3 heals in the same line whip is located)

If you say whip is good, then you are playing pre-morrowind, which was a very good patch imho (and I would like to play it too).

On the bright side, whip looks cool, but nothing else.

So, Poison whip doing strong dmg... I don't think so... the sole idea implies to copy mDK playing style and what stam DKs needs is not that. What stam DK needs is a better synergy with weapon lines. Stam DK should be the Man-at-Arms of ESO (it is the Knight, for Talos' sake!!) and not the slow brother Kobra Khan (MotU reference btw)

Indeed the last time I played really active was in Homestead when MagDk was really strong. However, Whip is still a strong spammable. The heal gives a lot survivability even though the uptime isn't as high. For 1vX Flame Lash will still be better than Molten Whip for that reason. Other spammables don't even have the option to deal increased damage when an enemy is set off-balance. In that regard Flame Lash has an advantage. It is correct that it is fairly slow compared to other abilities which could definitly be improved. Spammables are dodgable, Whip isn't a exception. Noxious isn't a good spammable at all in PvP. It is really easy to avoid there isn't even a reason to dodge it. The only reason Noxious is helpful in PvP is because you can get Nbs out of cloak. Also the Passives I mentioned that should be changed would help Whip to do better. Whip is a spammable like Reach, Force Pulse, Elemental Weapon or Surprise Attack and shouldn't be stronger. Surprise Attack is a really strong spammable due to the physical penetration it gives. That doesn't mean though that Whip has to be on the same level as it because it is a completely different playstyle.

The reason flame lash needs to be undodgeable was because it required you to set someone off balance. As soon as you are set off balance by a dk, most competent people will immediately dodgeroll. It is tremendously hard to hit whip on a good stam player, as soon as you cc them they will dodgeroll. Only solution I see to this besides making it undodgeable is providing a passive that sets people off balance. As it is right now molten lash is the better option.

For 1vX Molten Whip isn't a better option. Only for dueling, destro/restro builds and battle grounds. However, I would agree with you, that decent players can easily avoid Dks burst if they aren't in a dueling build. I'd say Flame Lash should stay dodgable but once Power Lash procs this one shouldn't be dodgable.

hedna123b14_ESO

Ryanoxx wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Whip is a bad spammable... I still think poison whip will be worse than puncture, heroic or whirlwind blades. Even the new flurry is much better.

MDKs use whip just because there's no other melee magicka skill. Make pierce armor a magicka skill and no DK would ever use whip.

Thats not true, in PvE Stamdks use Noxious Breath as spammable in the current state of Pts. Even if Pierce Armor was a magicka skill there would be no reason to run it. I play MagDk since 2 years and I would not drop Whip. Powerlash provides good damage and even a heal. Whip is not a bad spammable. A Poison Whip would set enemies off balance so stamdks could use the truth set for example.

Noxious as a spammable on the pts gives the lowest dps of the possible skill choices.

Savos_Saren

While I think your suggestions are decent- it does look like you're trying to buff StamDK and nerf MagDK. Yes, I can see that you're asking for some of both of their passives to be improved- but saying things like:

"Flame Lash: Reduce the healing from Powerlash by 10%. Offensive abilities shouldn't have too much defensive power." When stam toons already run around on heavy armor (defensive) builds with high damage (ie: Fury/Seventh Legion) is a little hypocritical.

Also, with the idea of giving a StamDK a stamwhip- you're suggesting a spammable, high damage ability that you can combine with an execute from 2H, DW, or Bow. I don't mind this idea- since NBs have the same concept... but MagDKs can't combine their whip with any form of magicka-based weapon execute. If you think MagDKs would be overpowered with both a whip and execute- perhaps you should consider how this might throw off a StamDK's balance.

I'm also guessing that you're suggesting a nerf to mDK's Coagulating Blood because it'll be easier for you as a StamDK to kill them. Resolving Vigor is already a good skill for stamina-based characters and with the nerf to an mDK's Wings- I can see why ZOS would have improved their healing.

Most of your suggestions sound pretty good, though.