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Why is nb losing damage but gaining direct mitigation on a high burst, front bar skill?
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Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »Brawler builds are about to be nasty. Slot psijic ulti back bar you can rock 23% mitigation full stacks, then when you time up your pressure you’ve got a nice oh *** heal in your pocket to line up with it. I’m happy with the change. 8% is a tough loss but the survivability is biggest weakness next to snare immunity which was also addressed. Great patch and can’t wait to play.
The 8% is still there. Just use Teleport Strike. Its a flat out buff. Which is rather awful considering their intent was to nerf Nightblades in PvP. Really weird changes in my opinion.@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade0 -
darkblue5✭✭✭✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Wonder if Nerftheforums runs impen? Sounds like something nightblades don't need to run
Pure divines I guess?
I run 2.5k crit res on my stamnb and 2.8k crit res on my magnb. Now, since next patch the meta will be heavy armor again, I'll drop medium my nb and go full chimp bleedblade, with *** cheese like tk, master axes, veiled and probably alchemist. Add to that 15% damage mitigation, 8% from undo, and maybe 30% from pirate skelly if I slot it instead of tk. You see the issue here?
You do remember that mitigation is multiplicative?
Yes obviously, but 15% on top of all of that is still massive, don't you think? And I'm talking about a full damage build that dedicates only its monster set to defensive purposes. You can easily go 2x infused wd, 1 robust recovery and warrior mundus in that setup and still have 5k+ wd with broken master bleeds. Yet it takes so many people to kill you.
I'm more thinking that it'll make my medium stamblade better able to swap protective to infused or swap some impen to well fitted and shave some stam regen. I probably wouldn't take off protective because it really is too stat dense and needs a nerf but... otherwise yes.
Bleedblades will over perform regardless of this change and putting more damage into nightblade would probably help them more than it would help medium/light nightblades. Would that extra damage against players be scaled down by your resistances?
Why are you using protective on your medblade? You are basically immortal of played correctly with shade cloak and dodge. Please don't tell me you even put 75 points into blessed.
Because I occasionally fight other players and protective is vastly over tuned? Yes, I am basically immortal if I don't P v the P but at some point between dodge rolls and shades and cloaks I'll have to put some damage in. Protective lets me take less damage while putting damage in and widens my offensive window.
Mostly tho it is because Protective is just way too efficient and I never have felt like I lacked damage in medium armor.
Fair enough, it's build choices and thank God people build differently. I go balls deep into damage with shackle, spriggan's, bloodspawn as my only defensive option and 3x infused wd with warrior. Trust me, I never have survivability issues unless I *** up. Which is what I love, it remebers me a lot of dexterity builds in dark souls 1, where you would one-shot stuff but you were extremely fragile if you were a noob that didn't know what to do.
Unfortunately next patch this playstyle will lose a fuckton of damage and gain brain dead mitigation, which makes me angry because it lowers once again the skill cap and makes people who are clueless more difficult to kill for no reason. Just like in the past 2 years and a half...
The minor vulnerability that our gap closer got is additive and so is the major vulnerability on Incap. The equation for vulnerability got changed in Murkmire so we were already dealing more damage that two patches ago based on that.
Incap doesn't give Major Vulnerability, it deals a debuff of 20% of its own that only works for you. Major Vulnerability is 25% and buffs all of the people hitting the affected target. The only current source of Major Vulnerability is the Necro Colossus Ultimate.
Yes, you're right. Probably the Vulnerability calculations were changed for necro too lol.1 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Wonder if Nerftheforums runs impen? Sounds like something nightblades don't need to run
Pure divines I guess?
I run 2.5k crit res on my stamnb and 2.8k crit res on my magnb. Now, since next patch the meta will be heavy armor again, I'll drop medium my nb and go full chimp bleedblade, with *** cheese like tk, master axes, veiled and probably alchemist. Add to that 15% damage mitigation, 8% from undo, and maybe 30% from pirate skelly if I slot it instead of tk. You see the issue here?
You do remember that mitigation is multiplicative?
Yes obviously, but 15% on top of all of that is still massive, don't you think? And I'm talking about a full damage build that dedicates only its monster set to defensive purposes. You can easily go 2x infused wd, 1 robust recovery and warrior mundus in that setup and still have 5k+ wd with broken master bleeds. Yet it takes so many people to kill you.
I'm more thinking that it'll make my medium stamblade better able to swap protective to infused or swap some impen to well fitted and shave some stam regen. I probably wouldn't take off protective because it really is too stat dense and needs a nerf but... otherwise yes.
Bleedblades will over perform regardless of this change and putting more damage into nightblade would probably help them more than it would help medium/light nightblades. Would that extra damage against players be scaled down by your resistances?
Why are you using protective on your medblade? You are basically immortal of played correctly with shade cloak and dodge. Please don't tell me you even put 75 points into blessed.
Because I occasionally fight other players and protective is vastly over tuned? Yes, I am basically immortal if I don't P v the P but at some point between dodge rolls and shades and cloaks I'll have to put some damage in. Protective lets me take less damage while putting damage in and widens my offensive window.
Mostly tho it is because Protective is just way too efficient and I never have felt like I lacked damage in medium armor.
Fair enough, it's build choices and thank God people build differently. I go balls deep into damage with shackle, spriggan's, bloodspawn as my only defensive option and 3x infused wd with warrior. Trust me, I never have survivability issues unless I *** up. Which is what I love, it remebers me a lot of dexterity builds in dark souls 1, where you would one-shot stuff but you were extremely fragile if you were a noob that didn't know what to do.
Unfortunately next patch this playstyle will lose a fuckton of damage and gain brain dead mitigation, which makes me angry because it lowers once again the skill cap and makes people who are clueless more difficult to kill for no reason. Just like in the past 2 years and a half...
The minor vulnerability that our gap closer got is additive and so is the major vulnerability on Incap. The equation for vulnerability got changed in Murkmire so we were already dealing more damage that two patches ago based on that.
Incap doesn't give Major Vulnerability, it deals a debuff of 20% of its own that only works for you. Major Vulnerability is 25% and buffs all of the people hitting the affected target. The only current source of Major Vulnerability is the Necro Colossus Ultimate.
Major vulnerability is 30%.
If it's sill actual :
Since the calculation of how damage work changed, 8% vulnerability is stronger than 8% minor berzerk (the reason is that "damage taken" debuff calculation is additive and the "damage deal" buff is multiplicative). [According to this thread : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462033/magdks-nightblades-received-a-damage-boost-in-wrathstone-vulnerability-calculation-changes/p1]
By only looking at that, If you already play with Ambush/lotus fan, the swap from berserk to vulnerability is a damage buff.0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »I already see how brawler Nbs benefit with the most from this because of how insanely overtuned the sword and board skill line is. Would be such a shame to allow one class to do better in med/light armor builds than on heavy meta builds...
Mmm BrawlerBlade will be extremely tanky for sure, but it's losing a fair bit of dmg. And I'm not talking about Minor Berserk, the big loss for those heavy S&B builds is Surprise Attack losing Major Fracture. And you have to use Surprise Attack otherwise you don't get very good uptime on Major Ward/Resolve.
If you try to work Surprise Attack, Puncture and Reverb (loss of Defile on Incap) into one build, on top of Merciless and Ambush, you're likely to run into bar space problems. Probably won't have bar space for an execute and Shadow Image, so probably no Minor Maim. Basically if you try to get all the stuff that you had before (Fracture, Resolve/Ward, Defile, Maim, Execute) you need a lot more skills than before.
Still very liable to get rekted by stamDKs with Corrosive Armor, especially if you have picked Dark Cloak over Shadowy Disguise and can't buy yourself reprieve from dots/bleeds.
Not sure how this will play out tbh. It's too early to call for me. But like you, I detest ZOS forcing every stam build on a heavy armor meta. Squish builds have been dead for a while and there seems no end to the reign of tankiness.
Edited by Maulkin on April 29, 2019 1:38PMEU | PC | AD1 -
Cagro✭✭✭TheRealSniker wrote: »Imagine if that 3% Damage Reduction from each stack would be Damage done to players instead...
Where are you getting this information from? Where are we getting this damage reduction?
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TheRealSniker wrote: »Imagine if that 3% Damage Reduction from each stack would be Damage done to players instead...
Where are you getting this information from? Where are we getting this damage reduction?
ESO live. Gilliam and Wheeler said so.EU | PC | AD0 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheRealSniker wrote: »Imagine if that 3% Damage Reduction from each stack would be Damage done to players instead...
Where are you getting this information from? Where are we getting this damage reduction?
His was a desire, we are getting a 3% damage reduction for each light attack stack of Grim focus. The source is the eso live of April 26th.0 -
kaithuzar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Trust me, I never have survivability issues unless I *** up.
So you’ve never experienced lag, cheating, or broken/imbalanced mechanics; you say?
Member of:
Fantasia - osh kosh b-josh
Just Chill - Crown's house
GoldCloaks - Durruthy test server penga
Small Meme Guild - Mano's house
Former member of:
Legend - Siffer fan boy club
TKO (tamriel knight's order) - free bks
Deviance - Leonard's senche tiger
Purple - hamNchz is my hero
Eight Divines - myrlifax stop playing final fantasy
WKB (we kill bosses) - turd where you go?
Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
World Boss - Mike & Chewy gone EP
M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg1 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Trust me, I never have survivability issues unless I *** up.
So you’ve never experienced lag, cheating, or broken/imbalanced mechanics; you say?
I 100% never experienced cheating, yet I am subject to lag (even tho I log off as soon as it becomes unplayable), and I just turn my back to imbalanced mechanics (ahem petsorcs). If I die to lag I don't consider it a problem, the game performance is ***, has always been and always will be, it's not my fault and nothing I can do about it. Balance changes are totally unrelated to lag deaths and kills. On the other hand, broken mechanics can be avoided and fought, some times. Thus if you die to them on a medblade it's your fault that you engaged without being able to come out alive.0 -
kaithuzar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nerftheforums wrote: »If this change goes you could roughly match the mitigation of Blood Spawn and go with Slimecraw and make up the stam regen somewhere.
Very true, I am gaining more mitigation on one bar, the one I'm not in when I'm defensive, yet as soon as I swap I take 15% more damage. That's an issue to me. Why put a defensive buff on an offensive skill? It's counterintuitive
It’ll work on my build because psijic ult is back-bar’d with defending resto staff. So my offensive bar is less tanky.Edited by kaithuzar on April 29, 2019 2:17PMMember of:
Fantasia - osh kosh b-josh
Just Chill - Crown's house
GoldCloaks - Durruthy test server penga
Small Meme Guild - Mano's house
Former member of:
Legend - Siffer fan boy club
TKO (tamriel knight's order) - free bks
Deviance - Leonard's senche tiger
Purple - hamNchz is my hero
Eight Divines - myrlifax stop playing final fantasy
WKB (we kill bosses) - turd where you go?
Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
World Boss - Mike & Chewy gone EP
M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg2 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nerftheforums wrote: »If this change goes you could roughly match the mitigation of Blood Spawn and go with Slimecraw and make up the stam regen somewhere.
Very true, I am gaining more mitigation on one bar, the one I'm not in when I'm defensive, yet as soon as I swap I take 15% more damage. That's an issue to me. Why put a defensive buff on an offensive skill? It's counterintuitive
It’ll work on my build because psijic is back-bar’d with defending resto staff. So my offensive bar is less tanky.
I still think it's awful, especially considering the calculations made in another post in pts.1 -
Dalsinthus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not sure how this will play out tbh. It's too early to call for me. But like you, I detest ZOS forcing every stam build on a heavy armor meta. Squish builds have been dead for a while and there seems no end to the reign of tankiness.
So much this. On ESO Live from April 26 they said that they recognize that the heavy armor meta is a problem and want to address it in a future patch. But many changes this patch are just reinforcing the heavy armor meta and making it harder to play medium builds. I seriously don't get it.
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Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dalsinthus wrote: »Not sure how this will play out tbh. It's too early to call for me. But like you, I detest ZOS forcing every stam build on a heavy armor meta. Squish builds have been dead for a while and there seems no end to the reign of tankiness.
So much this. On ESO Live from April 26 they said that they recognize that the heavy armor meta is a problem and want to address it in a future patch. But many changes this patch are just reinforcing the heavy armor meta and making it harder to play medium builds. I seriously don't get it.
So true. It's going to be fun playing stam when they'll kill the heavy armor meta while leaving medium totally awful2 -
KatySpirit✭✭✭NBs weakest tanks atm but putting mitigation on a dps ability not the answer.
The Mitigation from the Bow is not needed for a Tank, nor does it have any noticeable effect with all the sources of Mitigation a Tank has.
All nb tanks need, is a unique skill/debuff that is needed in groupplay, and maybe 1 skill that providesa synergie.
Add those 2 things, done.
This. I wish they would look a bit deeper at tank needs and do something that is actually useful. There is a lot of potential for NB tanks but it doesn't tie together right now. They need a good group buff and synergy and not to lose their decent self heal that is scaled on health, not damage. NB healers and DPS could also definitely use a unique synergy to proc Alkosh that doesn't require ultimate and being in the tank's face.
To end on a positive note, I like the addition of magic steal on a class ability and I hope it works for the whole group and not just for the caster. If it does, I'll definitely be slotting it on my healer.Tanks: Warden, Nightblade, Dragonknight
Healers: Nightblade, Templar, Warden, Sorcerer, Dragonknight, Necromancer
DPS: Magsorc, Magblade, Magplar, MagDK, Stamblade, StamNecro1 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭KatySpirit wrote: »NBs weakest tanks atm but putting mitigation on a dps ability not the answer.
The Mitigation from the Bow is not needed for a Tank, nor does it have any noticeable effect with all the sources of Mitigation a Tank has.
All nb tanks need, is a unique skill/debuff that is needed in groupplay, and maybe 1 skill that providesa synergie.
Add those 2 things, done.
This. I wish they would look a bit deeper at tank needs and do something that is actually useful. There is a lot of potential for NB tanks but it doesn't tie together right now. They need a good group buff and synergy and not to lose their decent self heal that is scaled on health, not damage. NB healers and DPS could also definitely use a unique synergy to proc Alkosh that doesn't require ultimate and being in the tank's face.
To end on a positive note, I like the addition of magic steal on a class ability and I hope it works for the whole group and not just for the caster. If it does, I'll definitely be slotting it on my healer.
Why would you slot it over elemental drain though? This one is cheaper and allows you to provide breach in enemies that cannot be taunted by the tank because of mechanics (I am thinking of vBRP's totems in the last arena for example).0 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »If this change goes you could roughly match the mitigation of Blood Spawn and go with Slimecraw and make up the stam regen somewhere.
Very true, I am gaining more mitigation on one bar, the one I'm not in when I'm defensive, yet as soon as I swap I take 15% more damage. That's an issue to me. Why put a defensive buff on an offensive skill? It's counterintuitive
It’ll work on my build because psijic is back-bar’d with defending resto staff. So my offensive bar is less tanky.
I still think it's awful, especially considering the calculations made in another post in pts.
The argument in the other thread is based on flawed assumptions, though. Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and 15% mitigation is far from weak.PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »If this change goes you could roughly match the mitigation of Blood Spawn and go with Slimecraw and make up the stam regen somewhere.
Very true, I am gaining more mitigation on one bar, the one I'm not in when I'm defensive, yet as soon as I swap I take 15% more damage. That's an issue to me. Why put a defensive buff on an offensive skill? It's counterintuitive
It’ll work on my build because psijic is back-bar’d with defending resto staff. So my offensive bar is less tanky.
I still think it's awful, especially considering the calculations made in another post in pts.
The argument in the other thread is based on flawed assumptions, though. Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and 15% mitigation is far from weak.
Can you provide calculations and examples? Because I know for a fact that it's not a flat 15% since damage mitigation is a multiplicative factor. And it's definitely not the first nor second time I see the formulas used in those computations being applied to such issue. Gilliam, Asian and others came to the same conclusions if I remeber correctly, and I consider them all reliable sources.1 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »If this change goes you could roughly match the mitigation of Blood Spawn and go with Slimecraw and make up the stam regen somewhere.
Very true, I am gaining more mitigation on one bar, the one I'm not in when I'm defensive, yet as soon as I swap I take 15% more damage. That's an issue to me. Why put a defensive buff on an offensive skill? It's counterintuitive
It’ll work on my build because psijic is back-bar’d with defending resto staff. So my offensive bar is less tanky.
I still think it's awful, especially considering the calculations made in another post in pts.
The argument in the other thread is based on flawed assumptions, though. Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and 15% mitigation is far from weak.
Can you provide calculations and examples? Because I know for a fact that it's not a flat 15% since damage mitigation is a multiplicative factor. And it's definitely not the first nor second time I see the formulas used in those computations being applied to such issue. Gilliam, Asian and others came to the same conclusions if I remeber correctly, and I consider them all reliable sources.
The calculations are not flawed, the argument is. 15% damage reduction means exactly what it tells you. If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you, then the mitigation from the proposed grim focus would reduce that damage to 850, no matter what other types of mitigation you already had.
To show you why the argument makes little sense think about battlespirit. Do you think all forms of mitigation are only half as strong/useful in PvP because the damage is cut in half?PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »Nerftheforums wrote: »If this change goes you could roughly match the mitigation of Blood Spawn and go with Slimecraw and make up the stam regen somewhere.
Very true, I am gaining more mitigation on one bar, the one I'm not in when I'm defensive, yet as soon as I swap I take 15% more damage. That's an issue to me. Why put a defensive buff on an offensive skill? It's counterintuitive
It’ll work on my build because psijic is back-bar’d with defending resto staff. So my offensive bar is less tanky.
I still think it's awful, especially considering the calculations made in another post in pts.
The argument in the other thread is based on flawed assumptions, though. Damage mitigation works the exact way the tooltip tells you and 15% mitigation is far from weak.
Can you provide calculations and examples? Because I know for a fact that it's not a flat 15% since damage mitigation is a multiplicative factor. And it's definitely not the first nor second time I see the formulas used in those computations being applied to such issue. Gilliam, Asian and others came to the same conclusions if I remeber correctly, and I consider them all reliable sources.
The calculations are not flawed, the argument is. 15% damage reduction means exactly what it tells you. If you get hit by an attack that deals 1000 damage to you, then the mitigation from the proposed grim focus would reduce that damage to 850, no matter what other types of mitigation you already had.
To show you why the argument makes little sense think about battlespirit. Do you think all forms of mitigation are only half as strong/useful in PvP because the damage is cut in half?
No, they are not half as strong but mitigate half the damage because this is cut in half.
Say you are at 33k res (50% damage reduction) and have major protection on. In pve land, if you get hit by a 20k blow you actually mitigate 13k damage. In pvp, that blow will hit you for 10k damage, but you'll mitigate 6.5k. It's multiplication properties. Obviously the percentages are not half a strong, since strenght is a relative term. They simply are less effective the more you stack of them. It's simply a matter of marginal utilities applied to percentages.
Selling a 15% damage mitigation is a thing, telling your people that the 15% damage mitigation could only mitigate 3% damage at the end of the day is another thing. Is it horrible? Definitely not, better than having nothing. Is it good? Eeeeh, debatable. Not many people keep their bow procs that much, the utility will be marginal. Still useful, but marginally. Without considering that it's promoting a stalemate and tank meta even more.0 -
HEBREWHAMMERRR✭✭✭✭✭HEBREWHAMMERRR wrote: »Brawler builds are about to be nasty. Slot psijic ulti back bar you can rock 23% mitigation full stacks, then when you time up your pressure you’ve got a nice oh *** heal in your pocket to line up with it. I’m happy with the change. 8% is a tough loss but the survivability is biggest weakness next to snare immunity which was also addressed. Great patch and can’t wait to play.
The 8% is still there. Just use Teleport Strike. Its a flat out buff. Which is rather awful considering their intent was to nerf Nightblades in PvP. Really weird changes in my opinion.
Should’ve clarified. I play magblade and since morrowind have mostly ran a decently tanky magblade “brawler” build. The 8% damage loss is tough but the mitigation is something we’ve needed for a long time next to a snare/immovability solution. I think these changes are great and the class will be in a different but great place. Couple this mitigation with mirage for the AoE reduction + minor resistances and then major on shadow abilities being applied and the brawler build will be solid.
1 -
KatySpirit✭✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »KatySpirit wrote: »NBs weakest tanks atm but putting mitigation on a dps ability not the answer.
The Mitigation from the Bow is not needed for a Tank, nor does it have any noticeable effect with all the sources of Mitigation a Tank has.
All nb tanks need, is a unique skill/debuff that is needed in groupplay, and maybe 1 skill that providesa synergie.
Add those 2 things, done.
This. I wish they would look a bit deeper at tank needs and do something that is actually useful. There is a lot of potential for NB tanks but it doesn't tie together right now. They need a good group buff and synergy and not to lose their decent self heal that is scaled on health, not damage. NB healers and DPS could also definitely use a unique synergy to proc Alkosh that doesn't require ultimate and being in the tank's face.
To end on a positive note, I like the addition of magic steal on a class ability and I hope it works for the whole group and not just for the caster. If it does, I'll definitely be slotting it on my healer.
Why would you slot it over elemental drain though? This one is cheaper and allows you to provide breach in enemies that cannot be taunted by the tank because of mechanics (I am thinking of vBRP's totems in the last arena for example).
It depends on the situation which will be better, but there are reasons to use it: class abilities are not tied to what weapon you have on your bar and we get 3% more healing for another siphoning ability slotted.Tanks: Warden, Nightblade, Dragonknight
Healers: Nightblade, Templar, Warden, Sorcerer, Dragonknight, Necromancer
DPS: Magsorc, Magblade, Magplar, MagDK, Stamblade, StamNecro0 -
mcagatayg✭✭✭✭This change is just plain stupid. They just did it so maybe some cryers will stop crying.1