Snare/Immobilizer Immunity: Time to Adjust DKs

Savos_Saren

With all the Snare/Immobilizer immunity popping up- please consider adjusting some of the DK's passives and skills. One particular reason we don't have an execute is that we're supposed to whittle away our opponents with melee attacks. Our abilities rely on snares and immobilizers to do so. Our passive, "Warmth", is supposed to slow enemies down enough to allow us to engage them at melee.

With the change to Wings and the prevalence of Snare/Immobilizer immunity- I'd suggest readjusting our Ardent Flame passives (Warmth and World in Ruin). Perhaps change World in Ruin to increase Fire and Poison damage. It would put DKs on par with other classes that get straight damage buffs to Lightning, Frost, Physical, Crit, Magic, etc.

Furthermore, our only "truly ranged" (28+ meters) class ability, Stone Fist, needs to be slightly adjusted. The damage isn't comparable to Spectral Bow or Crystal Frags which can be cast at a 28+ meter range AND stacked with a 28+ meter ranged execute. We need an ability that can hit hard at range in order to dissuade enemies from spamming ranged attacks on top of keep walls, rocks, etc. Our gap closers (Chains/Leap) cannot close the gap to enemies that are higher/lower than us because of the Y-Axis bug and because we cannot Leap into keeps (obviously).

Nser

also talons now is useless

Nser

less off balance and less powerlash next patch

StShoot

Yeah compared with the changes to wings and the root nerfs, the buffs which the magdk got seem pretty tiny.

Everyone who ever tried to play a mag dk without roots/ against someone with 100% roote immunety noticed that it is a hellhole

Aztlan

I like these suggestions.

Help me out, though. How are Talons useless? I didn't see any nerf.

ccmedaddy

Aztlan wrote: »

I like these suggestions.

Help me out, though. How are Talons useless? I didn't see any nerf.

I'm guessing because every class will have access to snare removal next patch.

I think people are overstating the impact the new RAT will have though. Nobody will have a 100% (or even anywhere near 50%) uptime on snare immunity so Talons will still work most of the time, except now magicka toons have an option to spend magicka instead of stamina to get out of the soft CC.

Xvorg

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Aztlan wrote: »

I like these suggestions.

Help me out, though. How are Talons useless? I didn't see any nerf.

I'm guessing because every class will have access to snare removal next patch.

I think people are overstating the impact the new RAT will have though. Nobody will have a 100% (or even anywhere near 50%) uptime on snare immunity so Talons will still work most of the time, except now magicka toons have an option to spend magicka instead of stamina to get out of the soft CC.

There's a CD that prevents rooting again enemies, similar to CC immunity

Xvorg

Savos_Saren wrote: »

With all the Snare/Immobilizer immunity popping up- please consider adjusting some of the DK's passives and skills. One particular reason we don't have an execute is that we're supposed to whittle away our opponents with melee attacks. Our abilities rely on snares and immobilizers to do so. Our passive, "Warmth", is supposed to slow enemies down enough to allow us to engage them at melee.

With the change to Wings and the prevalence of Snare/Immobilizer immunity- I'd suggest readjusting our Ardent Flame passives (Warmth and World in Ruin). Perhaps change World in Ruin to increase Fire and Poison damage. It would put DKs on par with other classes that get straight damage buffs to Lightning, Frost, Physical, Crit, Magic, etc.

Furthermore, our only "truly ranged" (28+ meters) class ability, Stone Fist, needs to be slightly adjusted. The damage isn't comparable to Spectral Bow or Crystal Frags which can be cast at a 28+ meter range AND stacked with a 28+ meter ranged execute. We need an ability that can hit hard at range in order to dissuade enemies from spamming ranged attacks on top of keep walls, rocks, etc. Our gap closers (Chains/Leap) cannot close the gap to enemies that are higher/lower than us because of the Y-Axis bug and because we cannot Leap into keeps (obviously).

Are you gonna play next patch? I Highly doubt it...


BTW the development team should have take a look to passives BEFORE active skills. We have now a bunch of passives that are useless due to the changes to skills and i doubt they are gonna do anything before lauching their new By.tch

Jhalin

It’s less that DKs are bad, mostly that they relied on permanent roots and snares which is the definition of uncounterable for any mag builds. Now with the immunity timer and RAT, mag users have an option to fight back and escape in that window between snares.l

Something not being mentioned, you can definitely still alternate CCs/immobilizes to keep someone near permanently locked down if you have skill and timing for it. At the very least you force immovable pots and dodge rolling for someone to escape your cc range for a bit

Twohothardware

They need to just get over the stupid idea of DK not having an execute and give DK back some form of increased damage to targets with low health. Damage in Cyrodiil is all about burst, not slow whittling down.

The skill Molten Armaments should be changed back to the old DK skill that worked as an execute. Right now nobody is running that stupid expensive skill.

Sanguinor2

I would also like to Point out that compared to RAT, double take and Forward Momentum Plate only has 2 seconds of snare immunity instead of 4 like the previously mentioned abilities, Plate Morph will likely be dead with elsweyr, running DFS with RAT is gonna be way more attractive since you get double the snare immunity, psijic passive and Major Expedition without relying on chains and a ton of Damage against ranged builds too.
The RAT and DFS Combo is also gonna be way more efficient for kiting and repositioning with Major Expedition and double snare immunity Duration and might also disaduade ranged People from immidiately chasing with the Damage return.

NyassaV

Nser wrote: »

also talons now is useless

LOL, aoe maim is useless?

Sanguinor2

NyassaV wrote: »

LOL, aoe maim is useless?

We somehow have to Keep Ice Wardens relevant so let them take care of the aoe maim^^
In all seriousness what was likely referred to was the immobilization and thus power lash Setup of the skill being weaker with that much snare removal/immunity around. I dont think its gonna be that problematic since it is likely going to be very rare to have 100% uptime on RAT or whatever they use for snare immunity.

John_Falstaff

Speaking of the change in question - does that mean that DK tanks (and tanks in general) will now have harder time keeping mobs together after chaining them in? Should I expect stuff to be immune for 3 seconds after first cast to Talons have expired? Somehow I'm not looking forward to that change. Once again, PvP-driven headache, this time for PvE tanks.

Savos_Saren

@Quantum_V Could you please bring up some of these concerns to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_BrianWheeler ?

It seems like it will be harder and harder to secure kills and defend/attack ranged builds with a DK's current passives and abilities. While I think some of the changes were in the right direction- I'm still wary of having a single (somewhat subpar) class skill that can only reach out to 28meters.

Perhaps the Devs could consider making Stone Fist (and it's morphs) to increased damage to higher health targets {pseudo execute} so that it can compete with Frags/Spectral Bow.. both skills are accompanied by their respective class executes.

lucky_Sage

don't worry youll just have to try to burst them down with the new molten whip before you die because the sustain outlast class lost half of its defense.
but yeah I wont slot talons next patch or wings
dks DoT pressure for pvp needs looked at there defense and control need looked at since roots and wings are to op for people to time there stuns properly so they nerf our main defense and unique class abilities

NyassaV

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@Quantum_V Could you please bring up some of these concerns to @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_BrianWheeler ?

It seems like it will be harder and harder to secure kills and defend/attack ranged builds with a DK's current passives and abilities. While I think some of the changes were in the right direction- I'm still wary of having a single (somewhat subpar) class skill that can only reach out to 28meters.

Perhaps the Devs could consider making Stone Fist (and it's morphs) to increased damage to higher health targets {pseudo execute} so that it can compete with Frags/Spectral Bow.. both skills are accompanied by their respective class executes.

You can still compete for 2 reasons.

1) is that you have some of the best self healing in the game. Definitely better than sorcs and magbalde (tho maybe not Stamblade)

2) wings is a 50% reduction and that’s a lot. It may take longer to kill your target because they can come around more but chances are you’ll be able to pull it off

Vapirko

Xvorg wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

With all the Snare/Immobilizer immunity popping up- please consider adjusting some of the DK's passives and skills. One particular reason we don't have an execute is that we're supposed to whittle away our opponents with melee attacks. Our abilities rely on snares and immobilizers to do so. Our passive, "Warmth", is supposed to slow enemies down enough to allow us to engage them at melee.

With the change to Wings and the prevalence of Snare/Immobilizer immunity- I'd suggest readjusting our Ardent Flame passives (Warmth and World in Ruin). Perhaps change World in Ruin to increase Fire and Poison damage. It would put DKs on par with other classes that get straight damage buffs to Lightning, Frost, Physical, Crit, Magic, etc.

Furthermore, our only "truly ranged" (28+ meters) class ability, Stone Fist, needs to be slightly adjusted. The damage isn't comparable to Spectral Bow or Crystal Frags which can be cast at a 28+ meter range AND stacked with a 28+ meter ranged execute. We need an ability that can hit hard at range in order to dissuade enemies from spamming ranged attacks on top of keep walls, rocks, etc. Our gap closers (Chains/Leap) cannot close the gap to enemies that are higher/lower than us because of the Y-Axis bug and because we cannot Leap into keeps (obviously).

Are you gonna play next patch? I Highly doubt it...


BTW the development team should have take a look to passives BEFORE active skills. We have now a bunch of passives that are useless due to the changes to skills and i doubt they are gonna do anything before lauching their new By.tch

100% agree. If you're talking about normalizing the game and rebuilding it from the ground up so to speak, then imo passives would come before actives. I think that when they get to passives tis going to create more issues with active skills.

DisgracefulMind

A counter for magicka builds for talons that doesn't require us to rng purge spam them off or dodge roll or sit there and eat all the damage, and mDKs want more buffs -_-

Juhasow

Twohothardware wrote: »

They need to just get over the stupid idea of DK not having an execute and give DK back some form of increased damage to targets with low health. Damage in Cyrodiil is all about burst, not slow whittling down.

The skill Molten Armaments should be changed back to the old DK skill that worked as an execute. Right now nobody is running that stupid expensive skill.

Nobody would use molten armaments in PvP if they would bring back old execute compenent back either. I dont really see enemies waiting with low health until You'll cast Your fully charged heavy attack. It would be also kinda weak in PvE because light attack rotation at execute range would just give You more DPS.

Aedaryl

Stop this dk crying train.

Slot ur CLASS gapcloser.

Ur welcome.

Kidgangster101

Aedaryl wrote: »

Stop this dk crying train.

Slot ur CLASS gapcloser.

Ur welcome.

You mean our clunky move that can miss if they stand on a slight hill? And the one that nightblades can cloak when they see it coming to evade it? Lol yep I'll get right on that.

ZarkingFrued

Aztlan wrote: »

I like these suggestions.

Help me out, though. How are Talons useless? I didn't see any nerf.

What made talons good was spamming them to get the whip proc, now with immunity theres no sense in using such an expensive skill. Really the cost could use a decrease as the effectiveness of immobilizations have now been nerfed.

Vapirko

Is light armor even going to be viable for PvP mag DK with the wings change?

Durham

CC is game breaking with latency over 200 .. It essentially becomes unbreakable.

Ball group comes to the scene latency shoots to 150+ they start to take damage then latency shoots to 200 shortly then all the CC become almost unbreakable and these guys start killing people as they are snared, bubbled, rooted, stunned. Spaming nothing but AOE no aiming no targeting, cant even tell if it was their damage that actually killed.. This is and has been the meta for a long time now.

I do not have an issue with CC I have one when you cant counter it. Because your character is no longer responsive...

soynegroyque

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Speaking of the change in question - does that mean that DK tanks (and tanks in general) will now have harder time keeping mobs together after chaining them in? Should I expect stuff to be immune for 3 seconds after first cast to Talons have expired? Somehow I'm not looking forward to that change. Once again, PvP-driven headache, this time for PvE tanks.

Nerf to Stop Time
Nerf to 1H Enchants
Nerf to Talons
PVE tanks can never have nice things

BlackMadara

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Stop this dk crying train.

Slot ur CLASS gapcloser.

Ur welcome.

You mean our clunky move that can miss if they stand on a slight hill? And the one that nightblades can cloak when they see it coming to evade it? Lol yep I'll get right on that.

When is the last time y'all actually used Empowering Chains? I have used it for the last month and have not had a single instance of the Y-axis bug. You can actually gapclose up the scaffolding in BG maps. The main issue is the second you stated. It does seem to bug when it "misses" and the you don't actually move. The skill is fine however, if one is seeking to use a gapcloser.

StShoot

soynegroyque wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Speaking of the change in question - does that mean that DK tanks (and tanks in general) will now have harder time keeping mobs together after chaining them in? Should I expect stuff to be immune for 3 seconds after first cast to Talons have expired? Somehow I'm not looking forward to that change. Once again, PvP-driven headache, this time for PvE tanks.

Nerf to Stop Time
Nerf to 1H Enchants
Nerf to Talons
PVE tanks can never have nice things

Chains grant CC imunety NOT root immunety, Nothing will change for tanks, (i also highly doubt that npcs will get root immunety, but it would be nice if someone could confirm it on pts)

StShoot

BlackMadara wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Stop this dk crying train.

Slot ur CLASS gapcloser.

Ur welcome.

You mean our clunky move that can miss if they stand on a slight hill? And the one that nightblades can cloak when they see it coming to evade it? Lol yep I'll get right on that.

When is the last time y'all actually used Empowering Chains? I have used it for the last month and have not had a single instance of the Y-axis bug. You can actually gapclose up the scaffolding in BG maps. The main issue is the second you stated. It does seem to bug when it "misses" and the you don't actually move. The skill is fine however, if one is seeking to use a gapcloser.

The problem i have with the chains is that they are extreeeemly slow, im not sure but it always felt slower than other gapclosers (maybe because you cast the skill first and than charge to the target? but it could just be imagination)


Also what do you skip for chains ?

Whip/Entropie/Embers/tallons(will remove them for deep breath)/wings(gone for RAT)/amorbuff/ Englufing flames/Coag+obsidian shield(or shield+ cauterize if you prefare that)/foss ? i know every class has to sacrefice something in order to slot a gapcloser ( seems fair right? To chase down some pew pew builds) BUT every melee class has a more or less reliable counter against ranged builds besides a gapcloser, lets take a look ok ?

Stamsorc: High speed and Mobility +streak to close the gap to ranged builds
Stamnb: Cloak. Do i have to say anything else ? xD
Magplar: Eclipse, you can break free but most of the player seem to forget that (still maybe the most unreliable counter)
Stamplar: Eclipse, you can use it but it costs magica sooo meh have fun
Stamden: Shimmering Shield
Stamnecro: That nice little inbuild chain (which is BTW unavoidable if you do range dmg)
Stam/Magdk: Wings...... with the new changes you can get poisoned, debuffed, CCed before you can even reach the enemy (its the most unreliable counter besides eclipse)

I realy hate that mentalety you ranged counter is crap slot a gapcloser ! every melee class should have a counter against pew pew builds, we are allready at a disadvantage when it comes to our openworld playstyle (Moving INTO the zerg to secure kills), while range builds just stay on walls and behind large groups.

Aedaryl

StShoot wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Stop this dk crying train.

Slot ur CLASS gapcloser.

Ur welcome.

You mean our clunky move that can miss if they stand on a slight hill? And the one that nightblades can cloak when they see it coming to evade it? Lol yep I'll get right on that.

When is the last time y'all actually used Empowering Chains? I have used it for the last month and have not had a single instance of the Y-axis bug. You can actually gapclose up the scaffolding in BG maps. The main issue is the second you stated. It does seem to bug when it "misses" and the you don't actually move. The skill is fine however, if one is seeking to use a gapcloser.

The problem i have with the chains is that they are extreeeemly slow, im not sure but it always felt slower than other gapclosers (maybe because you cast the skill first and than charge to the target? but it could just be imagination)


Also what do you skip for chains ?

Whip/Entropie/Embers/tallons(will remove them for deep breath)/wings(gone for RAT)/amorbuff/ Englufing flames/Coag+obsidian shield(or shield+ cauterize if you prefare that)/foss ? i know every class has to sacrefice something in order to slot a gapcloser ( seems fair right? To chase down some pew pew builds) BUT every melee class has a more or less reliable counter against ranged builds besides a gapcloser, lets take a look ok ?

Stamsorc: High speed and Mobility +streak to close the gap to ranged builds
Stamnb: Cloak. Do i have to say anything else ? xD
Magplar: Eclipse, you can break free but most of the player seem to forget that (still maybe the most unreliable counter)
Stamplar: Eclipse, you can use it but it costs magica sooo meh have fun
Stamden: Shimmering Shield
Stamnecro: That nice little inbuild chain (which is unavoidable if you do range dmg)
Stam/Magdk: Wings...... with the new changes you can get poisoned, debuffed, CCed before you can even reach the enemy (its the most unreliable counter besides eclipse)

I realy hate that mentalety you ranged counter is crap slot a gapcloser ! every melee class should have a counter against pew pew builds, we are allready at a disadvantage when it comes to our openworld playstyle (Moving INTO the zerg to secure kills), while range builds just stay on walls and behind large groups.

50% damage mitigation is not "crap".

If u are more than in 1v1, it's a buff.

Stop crying for nothing.

50% is what you get when u block with without S&B and ice staff passive.

If I had a skill that act as a perma block vs all ur skills, would you call it "crap counter" ?

ccmedaddy

StShoot wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Stop this dk crying train.

Slot ur CLASS gapcloser.

Ur welcome.

You mean our clunky move that can miss if they stand on a slight hill? And the one that nightblades can cloak when they see it coming to evade it? Lol yep I'll get right on that.

When is the last time y'all actually used Empowering Chains? I have used it for the last month and have not had a single instance of the Y-axis bug. You can actually gapclose up the scaffolding in BG maps. The main issue is the second you stated. It does seem to bug when it "misses" and the you don't actually move. The skill is fine however, if one is seeking to use a gapcloser.

The problem i have with the chains is that they are extreeeemly slow, im not sure but it always felt slower than other gapclosers (maybe because you cast the skill first and than charge to the target? but it could just be imagination)


Also what do you skip for chains ?

Whip/Entropie/Embers/tallons(will remove them for deep breath)/wings(gone for RAT)/amorbuff/ Englufing flames/Coag+obsidian shield(or shield+ cauterize if you prefare that)/foss ? i know every class has to sacrefice something in order to slot a gapcloser ( seems fair right? To chase down some pew pew builds) BUT every melee class has a more or less reliable counter against ranged builds besides a gapcloser, lets take a look ok ?

Stamsorc: High speed and Mobility +streak to close the gap to ranged builds
Stamnb: Cloak. Do i have to say anything else ? xD
Magplar: Eclipse, you can break free but most of the player seem to forget that (still maybe the most unreliable counter)
Stamplar: Eclipse, you can use it but it costs magica sooo meh have fun
Stamden: Shimmering Shield
Stamnecro: That nice little inbuild chain (which is BTW unavoidable if you do range dmg)
Stam/Magdk: Wings...... with the new changes you can get poisoned, debuffed, CCed before you can even reach the enemy (its the most unreliable counter besides eclipse)

I realy hate that mentalety you ranged counter is crap slot a gapcloser ! every melee class should have a counter against pew pew builds, we are allready at a disadvantage when it comes to our openworld playstyle (Moving INTO the zerg to secure kills), while range builds just stay on walls and behind large groups.

I mean... Swarm Mother exists.

Also, saying stamplars have a counter against ranged attacks because they can slot eclipse is just a bad argument. All you're demonstrating here is how bad stamplars are.