Is this really going to solve the spin2win issue?

psychotic13

Whirlwind:
Increased the base damage of this ability and morphs by 50%, but removed the execute bonus.
Reduced the base cost to 3510 from 3780.
Increased the radius of this ability and the Whirling Death morph to 6 meters from 5 meters.
Steel Tornado (morph): Removed the execute bonus, but reduced the base cost to 3240 from 3510.
Whirling Blades (morph): Removed the reduced cost and Major Endurance on hit, and reintroduced the execute bonus to this morph.

Am i the only one who thinks this will make it worse? 50% damage increase, and a 3m shorter radius with the execute morph.

Surely this will hit harder than ever?

Dracane

Definately a buff. I have ordered my follower to switch to whirling blades already, in order to practice the range difference in preparation for next patch. It will be so much more devastating.

6 Meters is still a huge radius and more than sufficient, especially since you gain 50% more damage.
It surely is a questionable change.

psychotic13

Dracane wrote: »

Definately a buff. I have ordered my follower to switch to whirling blades already, in order to practice the range difference in preparation for next patch. It will be so much more devastating.

6 Meters is still a huge radius and more than sufficient, especially since you gain 50% more damage.
It surely is a questionable change.

Yep, things like BGs where youre alot closer to eachother naturally cause of spawns ect are going to be a bloodbath.

Dracane

psychotic13 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Definately a buff. I have ordered my follower to switch to whirling blades already, in order to practice the range difference in preparation for next patch. It will be so much more devastating.

6 Meters is still a huge radius and more than sufficient, especially since you gain 50% more damage.
It surely is a questionable change.

Yep, things like BGs where youre alot closer to eachother naturally cause of spawns ect are going to be a bloodbath.

True. I like that they did not blindly nerf this. It's a pleasant approach. Altough I believe they should have better left it alone, as it seems they just made it even more potent than it already was. Which truly was not needed.

DarkPicture

ZoS: "twin slashes or venomous claw shouldnt be as a spammable skill"

also ZoS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-tFnbvHhSs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UakXKgngwPo

technohic

They should do what they intend to do on base morph and new steel potato, but take the 50% damage boost away from the execute morph.

Rikumaru

I personally use the new whirling blades as a spammable now, which does almost as much damage as single target spammables but has a 100% damage execute attached alongside DW passives. AOE's in general are outta control on pts, it's the same with stamblade; the power extraction was dealing only 500 less damage than surprise attack. If these changes go through expect to see major evasion as a core buff in every single build that can get the buff.

psychotic13

How is this not the issue everyones concerned about, i guess with the necro coming out alot of notes are overlooked at first

usmcjdking

It would be nice to have some communication as to why AOEs are basically outperforming single target skills by a lot.

Emma_Overload

This is totally crazy. When is ZOS going to see how overpowered Stamina builds are compared to Magicka? Can you imagine if Impulse did this? Everyone would slot it!

Lord_Eomer

psychotic13 wrote: »

Whirlwind:
Increased the base damage of this ability and morphs by 50%, but removed the execute bonus.
Reduced the base cost to 3510 from 3780.
Increased the radius of this ability and the Whirling Death morph to 6 meters from 5 meters.
Steel Tornado (morph): Removed the execute bonus, but reduced the base cost to 3240 from 3510.
Whirling Blades (morph): Removed the reduced cost and Major Endurance on hit, and reintroduced the execute bonus to this morph.

Am i the only one who thinks this will make it worse? 50% damage increase, and a 3m shorter radius with the execute morph.

Surely this will hit harder than ever?

Now no one cares what ZOS is messing around, players are tired complaining!

psychotic13

Emma_Overload wrote: »

This is totally crazy. When is ZOS going to see how overpowered Stamina builds are compared to Magicka? Can you imagine if impulse did this? Everyone would slot it!

This isnt about mag/stam. Its about AoEs being as strong as single target skills. I imagine sap essence is pretty strong after a buff to.

Fur_like_snow

It’s a buff at least in PvP. If you thought spin2win was meta last patch well... winters coming.

mcagatayg

You have extra 3 m to dodge it, so dodge it. This is a reasonable change where you exchange range for more dmg.

psychotic13

mcagatayg wrote: »

You have extra 3 m to dodge it, so dodge it. This is a reasonable change where you exchange range for more dmg.

A reasonable change? 50% damage for 3m reduction?

Seriously? Been on that 4/20 wavelength all day?

LiquidPony

It would probably be OK if it was blockable.

This concerns PvE too. Whirling Blades is really strong. Even on a stamden it starts outperforming Cutting Dive as a spammable around ~70% HP because its execute scaling starts at 100%.

In any place where I've tested it, Whirling Blades comes into play long before execute doing more DPS than any spammable including Surprise Attack, Cutting Dive, Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Crushing Weapon, etc.

mcagatayg

psychotic13 wrote: »

mcagatayg wrote: »

You have extra 3 m to dodge it, so dodge it. This is a reasonable change where you exchange range for more dmg.

A reasonable change? 50% damage for 3m reduction?

Seriously? Been on that 4/20 wavelength all day?

Considering game is fiddle with lag and abilities not hitting, 3m is nice.

Dracane

Browart wrote: »

ZoS: "twin slashes or venomous claw shouldnt be as a spammable skill"

also ZoS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-tFnbvHhSs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UakXKgngwPo

@Browart Oh my dear lord ! An Iron Atronach target dummy. Where did you get this ?

wheem_ESO

I've been hit in BGs, with 25k - 28k physical resistance, for up to 6.6k from Whirling Blades when in execute range, and over 4k when it wasn't even the killing blow. 'Course, even if it gets a damage nerf (which it desperately needs), undodgeable AOE executes don't belong in PvP. Especially when said execute exists alongside a really powerful baseline Stamina toolkit - it's not like someone using this nonsense is weak in every other way, but has their one Ace-in-the-Hole.

psychotic13 wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

This is totally crazy. When is ZOS going to see how overpowered Stamina builds are compared to Magicka? Can you imagine if impulse did this? Everyone would slot it!

This isnt about mag/stam. Its about AoEs being as strong as single target skills. I imagine sap essence is pretty strong after a buff to.

But it kind of is about Stam-vs-Mag. Who gets access to Major Evasion from a really great weapon skill line, and who doesn't? Plus, Sap Essence doesn't really exist in BGs, and even if it did...that's one Magicka build, not a generic ability that's available to everyone.

You know what all Magicka builds do get for AOE? Wall of Elements and Impulse. If "Spin to Win" functioned just like a Stamina version of one of those two abilities, you wouldn't see much complaining about it (unless it had the Snare of Wall of Frost, though with that being nerfed, I doubt Stam would really want it - just use Rending, Caltrops, or gap close).

I'm just worried that there's not enough "real" small scale PvP going on during the PTS to get something done about this and Carve. Both are getting up-front damage that's >= basically every instant cast, single target spammable, while also potentially hitting multiple targets, proc'ing Axe bleeds, and in the case of Carve, applying yet another strong bleed that ignores resists. Stamina has been dominant for several years, and I'm pretty sure it's going to get worse if we don't get some not-insignificant changes over the course of the next month.

templesus

Emma_Overload wrote: »

This is totally crazy. When is ZOS going to see how overpowered Stamina builds are compared to Magicka? Can you imagine if Impulse did this? Everyone would slot it!

What? Magsorc is the best spec in the game. And impulse does do this, good players already use it.

Joy_Division

psychotic13 wrote: »

Whirlwind:
Increased the base damage of this ability and morphs by 50%, but removed the execute bonus.
Reduced the base cost to 3510 from 3780.
Increased the radius of this ability and the Whirling Death morph to 6 meters from 5 meters.
Steel Tornado (morph): Removed the execute bonus, but reduced the base cost to 3240 from 3510.
Whirling Blades (morph): Removed the reduced cost and Major Endurance on hit, and reintroduced the execute bonus to this morph.

Am i the only one who thinks this will make it worse? 50% damage increase, and a 3m shorter radius with the execute morph.

Surely this will hit harder than ever?

You're not alone. I said the same thing when I was at Zenimax back in February.

techprince

This actually made it worse. 6m is still huge.

Iskiab

Aoes are up across the board. Maybe they tried removing the aoe execute and quickly realized stamina needs it from testing?

Almost everyone was happy when the info that spin to win losing the execute was released early. For them to move it to the other morph is an odd choice. I’m thinking with aoe spam melee are going to have a hard time and will need the help.

Ankael07

Emma_Overload wrote: »

This is totally crazy. When is ZOS going to see how overpowered Stamina builds are compared to Magicka? Can you imagine if Impulse did this? Everyone would slot it!

Impulse already did that before and every ball group was spamming it. Zenimax had to nerf them. Seems like they learned nothing from history

AScaryDinosaur

mcagatayg wrote: »

You have extra 3 m to dodge it, so dodge it. This is a reasonable change where you exchange range for more dmg.

I do not think that is fair to say. Whirling now has 6m base range when most melee spammables are 5-7m. So if you are melee, there is no way you can effectivly do damage while also dodging the spin.

I expect to see more people running Major Evasion if all this goes live.

Joosef_Kivikilpi

LiquidPony wrote: »

It would probably be OK if it was blockable.

This concerns PvE too. Whirling Blades is really strong. Even on a stamden it starts outperforming Cutting Dive as a spammable around ~70% HP because its execute scaling starts at 100%.

In any place where I've tested it, Whirling Blades comes into play long before execute doing more DPS than any spammable including Surprise Attack, Cutting Dive, Rapid Strikes, Flying Blade, Crushing Weapon, etc.

When Whirling Blades aoe execute does more damage at execute 25% range than single Target impale... Bahaha what is going on with the combat team???

Jeezye

I havent tested it yet, 50% damage increase might be kind of too much but I think the damage of s2w was actually low, especially compared to the 2h execute. Buffing the damage and reducing the effective size actually sounds reasonable, though I cant tell from experience how strong the actual damage buff turns out

wheem_ESO

Jeezye wrote: »

I havent tested it yet, 50% damage increase might be kind of too much but I think the damage of s2w was actually low, especially compared to the 2h execute. Buffing the damage and reducing the effective size actually sounds reasonable, though I cant tell from experience how strong the actual damage buff turns out

Not at all reasonable when it's always combo'd with Dawnbreaker bombs and Shalks + other AOE when available. Some people get so used to instakilling targets with that combo that they don't even notice when their Dawnbreaker gets blocked and you heal up...you'll sometimes still hear 2 or 3 Spin-to-Wins when you're at 80% hp. But with this change, those Spins are going to actually do fairly substantial damage, even though you're not in execute range.

I have a death recap screenshot from a PTS-Battleground that reads as follows:
Player1: Stalking Blastbones for 6,151 (bugged ability, hitting harder + critting more than it's supposed to)
Player2: Whirling Blades for 4,333
Player2: Heavy Weapons x3 for 3,492 (indicating relatively weak offensive stats...but still got that Whirling Blades damage)
Player3: Icy Conjuror proc x6 for 5,354
Player1: Ricochet Skull for 2,982 (the AOE spammable from Player2 did almost 1.5x the damage of this single target cast)

Obviously I don't know exactly what HP % I was at when each of those abilities hit me, but given the fact that the very same player landed a 6,490 Whirling Blades for a later killing blow in that same match, I'd wager that I wasn't quite on the verge of death when the 4,333 damage one landed.

AOE executes shouldn't be a thing at all, especially when they're undodgeable and can only be utilized by Stam (which is already dominant in PvP).

olsborg

Only zos can manage to nerfBUFF a skill. Its funny 😂🤮

SodanTok

Yes, this will solve spin2win. After one patch with this, it will get nerfed like never before, because everyone will hate this.

Lord-Otto

templesus wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

This is totally crazy. When is ZOS going to see how overpowered Stamina builds are compared to Magicka? Can you imagine if Impulse did this? Everyone would slot it!

What? Magsorc is the best spec in the game. And impulse does do this, good players already use it.

You can use Impulse for very specialized AoE groups, but you'll be a lot weaker against single targets. Steel Tornado is stronger, has more AoE, an execute and actually is not weakening your usual build. It is wayyy better for that role.