Kristofer ESO rips in to Reflective Scale change and I agree

Scarpion

Imagine complaining about a skill that was overperforming and single-handedly made you immortal vs anyone with a ranged based playstyle (sorc, nb, warden, even some templars cause of how bad sweeps is as a skill).

It's a great change, works against everything ranged now (including force pulse) but doesn't make us immortal vs ranged classes. Healthy change.

susniand

Jeezye wrote: »

Wings are a increadibly cheap option to completly shut down any ranged opponent. The current form is absolute BS to play against. If you were to keep the reflect option and make it more worthwhile to use against multiple opponents, I'd suggest to reflect only 1 skill per player up to six players. That way one wing cast can not shut down your whole offensive pressure but still is very effective in deflecting a horde of zerglings sniping you.

Change has been made though, I think its rather lazy but am still fine cuz everything's better than current form of wings

I wouldnt call 4k magicka cost cheap ...

Tommy_The_Gun

I watched the video. He seems do dislike most of the changes, done to all classes & skills, but he is also being objective about them and also constructive - something that 90% of forum users here are lacking. I'd suggest you watch it.

Steelshiv

As a magsorc if I'm fighting a DK who uses perfectly timed reflective scales more than 3 times I just leave the fight. Not worth my time. DK can just reflect half my burst, heal, Regen resources, then burst me. Not getting my precious AP that easy.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Forum DKs -- the group that gets the most buffs out of the entire patch, but still finds a way to complain.

most of those buffs will never make it to live, like inhale that's why we are complaining about wings

I will bet real money that most of those buffs will make it to Live. ZoS usually does not alter class changes.

I agree with you here. It's the reason why I'm against most nerfs. Even ones that would help me fight DKs. ZoS rarely buffs things after nerfing them and if they do it can take weeks or months even.

IronWooshu

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I watched the video. He seems do dislike most of the changes, done to all classes & skills, but he is also being objective about them and also constructive - something that 90% of forum users here are lacking. I'd suggest you watch it.

Watched it. Sounds like an uninformed complainer. Downvoted it. Done with Kristofer ESO.

anatole1234

Nonsense. Negating one complete source of damage and playstyle is unhealthy for any balance in game.

the new wing is actually a huge buff to smallscale and outnumbered DK since if you were fighting more than 5 people your reflects were gone in 0.5 seconds. instead now you get 50% damage mitigation for 6 seconds which is huge.

People crying that this is a nerf were obviously crutching on wings 1v1 or Xv1 . Any decent DK knows that this ***'s actually a buff (Plus the pre 1.6 inhale is back so magDk gonna be godlike again)

Neoauspex

I don't play DK, so I'm not gonna comment on the state of the class. But is it a good thing for the game to reduce the counterplay options for ranged builds? Being at range is already a distinct advantage, why do we want to further encourage people hiding behind a zerg spamming snipe/dark flare/etc.

GaldorP

Strongly dislike this change . Being able to reflect projectiles with a class ability is one of the few remaining things that make DKs truly unique. The new version does push DKs more towards tankier, pure melee builds in PvP - an incentive which was not needed. I don't see the benefit of the new version or the reason why this change was needed.

Edit: If the 100% mitigation from wings is such a huge problem because the wings hard-counter too many different types of attacks and don't leave an opponent enough alternatives, then reduce the mitigation to 50%, but keep the projectile reflection effect, since it is class-defining.

Also: There always were ways to get around DK wings in Cyrodiil, even back when there was no cap on how many projectiles they would reflect and when they were much cheaper to use. A build that relies only on projectile attacks will struggle against DKs and it should. A DK build that relies only on DoTs will completely fail against a NB or any constellation with Purge. ESO's core PvP content is not 1v1 duelling, it's either large scale PvP in Cyrodiil or 4v4v4 in BGs. The balancing should be based on those types of encounters.

Toc de Malsvi

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I watched the video. He seems do dislike most of the changes, done to all classes & skills, but he is also being objective about them and also constructive - something that 90% of forum users here are lacking. I'd suggest you watch it.

...He was emotional and a bit irrational when it comes to wings. I'm sure it has nothing to do with his DK glass cannon build posted 3 days ago which uses wings prolifically.

You don't need to be extremely tanky for 50% mitigation on top of your already static mitigation to be a huge bump towards survival. No need to block/dodge projectiles as Wings will now provide the same mitigation, that can be further migated with block if necessary.

DK's already come with significant defensive buffs and healing amps they do not need further static immunity.

MaxwellC

Lol it's exactly what I've been saying.

You eat every damn debuff and you still gotta somehow close the gap to the person who is ranging you so you're saying a warrior class is supposed to try and gap close a target hitting you from 28-41m away... lmao ok gg.

Addition: when you're actually attempting to engage the target the DoTs keep your health limited because the DoTs are continually hitting you further diminishing your combative prowess as you're now trying to top off your health because you're trying to engage the ranged target. I take it we're suppose to run away but GG anyone not using a bow as a DK because you're not going anywhere; just take it like the wall we're supposed to be.

Dracane

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I think it's a healthy change. DK was the deal breaker for many build ideas, as DKs were able to completely negate so many things.

50% damage reduction is still so much, that you are still basically immortal against ranged attacks. This ability now also works against force shock, if this matters to you.

A skilled sorcerer that support this BS change? woah
I'm pretty shure you have ereased a lot of dk's even when wings had no cap.

But unfortunatly this game have become more of a flat damage reduction that a skilled counterplay, wings where for us a skilled counterplay against ranged builds now we will just walk at them full of snares and poison hoping to get there before execute range (and tree out of six classes have a ranged execute so it will be just absorb up and die for us)

Yust to be clear...
Wait for the sorc frag to proc and flap back in his face IS a skilled counterplay.
Flap casual wings in the battelfield hoping that someone suicide on you is lame.

I'm not skilled and I haven't erased any DKs. All I know, is that DKs were the reason why I wasn't able to rely on elemental weapons and was forced to stick with this trashy force shock.

But I will definately miss seeing fools fly around because they get their flame wheel reflected back at them.

If you are not skilled you are a different person from the original Dracane and you have just bought her account.
Many times i fighted with you and many times you killed me on my dk in IC.

Anyway you made exactly our point on your last sentence
wings and reflecting projectiles was distinctive for the DK class, like sorcerers have shields nb have cloak wardens have wierd animal companions templars have the purge and bol , and necro well i dont know... necroing things around?
Wings was the DK's uniqueness now we will be only flame melee mages.

I am her. I'm just not sure about the skill part. I believe Imperial Physique does most of the work.

I agree, Scales was the identity ability of Dragonknights. But I also believe that it was too easy to shut down any ranged build, if you build your Dk correctly and reapply scales over and over. While I don't know what your character name is, my victory is likely a combination of years of experience and many years under DK dominance and Imperial Physique.

Dracane

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Nope, this is a good change. If you still want the damage return you can select DFS which will be awesome for retaliatory pressure.

The current version of Wings is super abusive to play against in BGs especially. This change has been a long time coming.

Just to be clear...
you know most of dk's play s&b yes?
you know that most of the popular dk builds can generate ultimate rather quickly yes?
you know we have battle roar yes?
you know that the s&b ultimate cost 100 something and reflect ALL incoming projectiles yes?

Now put all this things togheder, add 50% damage reduction from ranged attacks add the new inhale and you will have the WORST CANCER CLASS EVER.

The new wings only open up something cyrodill have missed since 1.6 , immortal dk's running in the middle of a zerg and taking out everyone.
I'm against this and i have a dk...
We will get nerfed to the ground again after zos realize what a terrible mistake they have done.

True. But it does not matter really. I can only speak for myself. I never even use any projectiles when I see someone using the shieldreflect ultimate. I just do some lightning heavy attacks in the meantime. Or resto heavy attacks, as normal Sorcerers would. So even if you get your 50% projectile mitigation on top of Spell Wall, would it matter ? Projectiles can't hit then anyway.

Sanguinor2

What really Bugs me outside of the lost class identity (again) is that wings seemingly cant ever have 2 useful Morphs, tho that is a General Problem for more than wings, plate Morph just died again because race against time exists.

D0PAMINE

I tested the new wings last night. I need to set it up so I can see incoming damage clearer as I couldn't really notice it was even working on my Tank with all the other damage mitigation and resistance I have. Im curious to see how others are testing Wings and the methods they're using so I can get a better understanding.

asuzab16_ESO

casparian wrote: »

Forum DKs -- the group that gets the most buffs out of the entire patch, but still finds a way to complain.

Yeah, because what's the point of buffing MagDKs if they can't reach their targets? Since their gap closers range is too small to reach 28+ ranged attackers, they entirely depended on the effects of the spells reflected to reach their targets. With that gone and the DKs still having absolutely zero mobility, it's going to be extremely easy for any other class to make sure that DKs don't land a single hit.

So yeah, awesome buffs that will make MagDKs really strong in close environments but what you voluntarily forgot to say is that they're gonna to become free kills for any range class in open spaces. As you said, negating one complete source of damage and playstyle is unhealthy for any balance in game, and that change doesn't stop that from happening, it just puts MagDKs in MagNBs' spot.

"Deserved" many will say, out of frustration, and that's understandable because wings were way too strong. A change was needed but not one that just allows ranged players to kite MagDKs without any risk of getting hit. I would have loved to see a no reflection for projectiles from under 14 or 22 meters or/and a limit of 2 projectiles per enemy. That would have been a much more clever fix...

asuzab16_ESO

*Deleted double.

Onefrkncrzypope

now that it has a high uptime a dk can now go from shield ulti to wing and back again. Thought reflects where bad enjoy that mess magblades.

Don't be so happy about "nerfs"

Tonnopesce

Dracane wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Nope, this is a good change. If you still want the damage return you can select DFS which will be awesome for retaliatory pressure.

The current version of Wings is super abusive to play against in BGs especially. This change has been a long time coming.

Just to be clear...
you know most of dk's play s&b yes?
you know that most of the popular dk builds can generate ultimate rather quickly yes?
you know we have battle roar yes?
you know that the s&b ultimate cost 100 something and reflect ALL incoming projectiles yes?

Now put all this things togheder, add 50% damage reduction from ranged attacks add the new inhale and you will have the WORST CANCER CLASS EVER.

The new wings only open up something cyrodill have missed since 1.6 , immortal dk's running in the middle of a zerg and taking out everyone.
I'm against this and i have a dk...
We will get nerfed to the ground again after zos realize what a terrible mistake they have done.

True. But it does not matter really. I can only speak for myself. I never even use any projectiles when I see someone using the shieldreflect ultimate. I just do some lightning heavy attacks in the meantime. Or resto heavy attacks, as normal Sorcerers would. So even if you get your 50% projectile mitigation on top of Spell Wall, would it matter ? Projectiles can't hit then anyway.

Agree even i when i fight dk's in my sorc or magblade i just spam resto heavy and wait for the opening (while dk's shut down my stamplar build entierly), but unfortunatly most of the changes we see in the game came from zerglings who heavy complaint about something they cannot fight against.
There are some pretty serious cancer builds out there in cyro played by heavy experienced ppl and those people create the "meta" to fight against.
When you have immortal DK's and Templars, burst stamblade and stamden, and shiel stacking sorcerers that can kite and fight 1vX 10 people those players who fight agains them instead of getting better and upgrade theyr skill level ,they just brainless ask for nerfs.

I can already see what kind of builds can come out from DK's changes and those build can be played good pretty easy, that's why i'm kinda worried because the zerglings will ask for HEAVY nerfs after this goes live.