Kristofer ESO rips in to Reflective Scale change and I agree

cheifsoap

https://youtu.be/xYxrmpB5BTM?t=1447

This is change is extremely short sided and should be changed asap. There really isn't anything else to say about it that hasn't already been said.

Jeezye

Wings are a increadibly cheap option to completly shut down any ranged opponent. The current form is absolute BS to play against. If you were to keep the reflect option and make it more worthwhile to use against multiple opponents, I'd suggest to reflect only 1 skill per player up to six players. That way one wing cast can not shut down your whole offensive pressure but still is very effective in deflecting a horde of zerglings sniping you.

Change has been made though, I think its rather lazy but am still fine cuz everything's better than current form of wings

Rex-Umbra

Wings were and still are OP.

Onefrkncrzypope

Jeezye wrote: »

Wings are a increadibly cheap option to completly shut down any ranged opponent. The current form is absolute BS to play against. If you were to keep the reflect option and make it more worthwhile to use against multiple opponents, I'd suggest to reflect only 1 skill per player up to six players. That way one wing cast can not shut down your whole offensive pressure but still is very effective in deflecting a horde of zerglings sniping you.

Change has been made though, I think its rather lazy but am still fine cuz everything's better than current form of wings

Wings isn't the only reflect in the game, you know that right? It would have been better to just add a couple more exceptions than just another lame resistance buff. DK is such a boring class.

cwp303b14_ESO

The fundamental problem with the change is not in the reflected damage but in the mitigation the skill provides.

I would be ok if the just removed the reflect but had it negate 4 projectiles.

DK is a class with only 1 28+ meter non-spammable attack. How are they supposed to even the playing field against all the ranged kiting classes?

If the answer to the above question is to change skills or slot other weapons then I've found the hypocrisy.

It seems there are just simply more or louder players who want to keep their playstyle by taking away the playstyle of another class rather than elevating theirs

Edit: also, wardens still retain the ability to negate ranged projectiles and yet they have innate ranged spammable attacks

Toc de Malsvi

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

The fundamental problem with the change is not in the reflected damage but in the mitigation the skill provides.

I would be ok if the just removed the reflect but had it negate 4 projectiles.

DK is a class with only 1 28+ meter non-spammable attack. How are they supposed to even the playing field against all the ranged kiting classes?

If the answer to the above question is to change skills or slot other weapons then I've found the hypocrisy.

It seems there are just simply more or louder players who want to keep their playstyle by taking away the playstyle of another class rather than elevating theirs

Edit: also, wardens still retain the ability to negate ranged projectiles and yet they have innate ranged spammable attacks

The pretense that the difference between 22m and 28m for attacks is meaningful in PVP is a joke. No one is "kiting" you outside of gap closer range. Kiting doesn't hardly exist in PVP in this game, streak is about the only thing close to it.

Lets pretend DK's actually can use weapons, then we have access to both stam and mag gap close, stam and mag snare removal, and bows and Destro for 28m ranged damage. Its a game of make believe to think DKs are being shot down as they waddle towards people.

WillhelmBlack

Just gonna use mist form.

WillhelmBlack

Another patch of homogenization.

Dracane

I think it's a healthy change. DK was the deal breaker for many build ideas, as DKs were able to completely negate so many things.

50% damage reduction is still so much, that you are still basically immortal against ranged attacks. This ability now also works against force shock, if this matters to you.

casparian

Forum DKs -- the group that gets the most buffs out of the entire patch, but still finds a way to complain.

cwp303b14_ESO

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

cwp303b14_ESO wrote: »

The fundamental problem with the change is not in the reflected damage but in the mitigation the skill provides.

I would be ok if the just removed the reflect but had it negate 4 projectiles.

DK is a class with only 1 28+ meter non-spammable attack. How are they supposed to even the playing field against all the ranged kiting classes?

If the answer to the above question is to change skills or slot other weapons then I've found the hypocrisy.

It seems there are just simply more or louder players who want to keep their playstyle by taking away the playstyle of another class rather than elevating theirs

Edit: also, wardens still retain the ability to negate ranged projectiles and yet they have innate ranged spammable attacks

The pretense that the difference between 22m and 28m for attacks is meaningful in PVP is a joke. No one is "kiting" you outside of gap closer range. Kiting doesn't hardly exist in PVP in this game, streak is about the only thing close to it.

Lets pretend DK's actually can use weapons, then we have access to both stam and mag gap close, stam and mag snare removal, and bows and Destro for 28m ranged damage. Its a game of make believe to think DKs are being shot down as they waddle towards people.

Let's just create a truthful scenario based only on facts regardless of whether you choose to exploit them or not:

1. A DK using a reflect ability sans actual reflect is at 28+ meters(pvp extends long range skills let's not forget) from an enemy. Any other class begins to attack them and they absorb the projectiles leaving the encounter mostly zero sum for the enemy and dk. Neither can hurt the other much.
2. A DK using the new skill is attacked at 28+meters in pvp. They eat damage until they can get to at least 22m before they can even begin to counter pressure.

Kinda seems like you just want free ranged class damage my dude

Gilvoth

a very small group of people asked, not "WE" not the community, just a small few on this forum.
the rest of us dont agree with your small group.
we dont agree with that video nor his views.

Tonnopesce

Dracane wrote: »

I think it's a healthy change. DK was the deal breaker for many build ideas, as DKs were able to completely negate so many things.

50% damage reduction is still so much, that you are still basically immortal against ranged attacks. This ability now also works against force shock, if this matters to you.

A skilled sorcerer that support this BS change? woah
I'm pretty shure you have ereased a lot of dk's even when wings had no cap.

But unfortunatly this game have become more of a flat damage reduction that a skilled counterplay, wings where for us a skilled counterplay against ranged builds now we will just walk at them full of snares and poison hoping to get there before execute range (and tree out of six classes have a ranged execute so it will be just absorb up and die for us)

Yust to be clear...
Wait for the sorc frag to proc and flap back in his face IS a skilled counterplay.
Flap casual wings in the battelfield hoping that someone suicide on you is lame.

Fur_like_snow

Wings is class defining and now it’s just another 6 second buff. Sad

Olupajmibanan

I don't mind not reflecting projectiles anymore. I don't mind only half damage mitigation. But what I really feel is the loss of immunity to dots and CC effects that are tied to projectiles.

Tonnopesce

casparian wrote: »

Forum DKs -- the group that gets the most buffs out of the entire patch, but still finds a way to complain.

most of those buffs will never make it to live, like inhale that's why we are complaining about wings

Dracane

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I think it's a healthy change. DK was the deal breaker for many build ideas, as DKs were able to completely negate so many things.

50% damage reduction is still so much, that you are still basically immortal against ranged attacks. This ability now also works against force shock, if this matters to you.

A skilled sorcerer that support this BS change? woah
I'm pretty shure you have ereased a lot of dk's even when wings had no cap.

But unfortunatly this game have become more of a flat damage reduction that a skilled counterplay, wings where for us a skilled counterplay against ranged builds now we will just walk at them full of snares and poison hoping to get there before execute range (and tree out of six classes have a ranged execute so it will be just absorb up and die for us)

Yust to be clear...
Wait for the sorc frag to proc and flap back in his face IS a skilled counterplay.
Flap casual wings in the battelfield hoping that someone suicide on you is lame.

I'm not skilled and I haven't erased any DKs. All I know, is that DKs were the reason why I wasn't able to rely on elemental weapons and was forced to stick with this trashy force shock.

But I will definately miss seeing fools fly around because they get their flame wheel reflected back at them.

Ulfgarde

Who would have thought 100% damage reduction and reflection was a terrible idea in 1v1s? All this from the perspective of using a pure/semi-ranged ability build (magblade/magsorc/magwarden).

Even in open world, if I fight some people in a 1v3 scenario, 1 of which is a DK, then there is no way I can deal any kind of damage to this DK. They have a significant advantage because 1. I cannot damage them immediately and 2. if i do, I am only killing myself on top of their own pressure. Most DKs will simply reapply wings before i can finish breaking it with light attacks. Even then, every DK is melee-based, so they WILL be body-blocking other targets, and you WILL hit them.

So, I am forced to take a ton of pressure from a person I can't even damage. I can only tank/kite them long enough so they forget to reapply it, but I'm risking bursting myself instead. Even so, in an open world scenario this is never optimal because of the pressure you take from other players, and most people aren't brainlets and forget about free damage mitigation.

DK needed something that worked well in this scenario but didn't totally shut down ranged playstyles. Still, 50% mitigation against ranged is very high damage reduction, so it's still going to much more difficult to burst a DK with ranged attacks.

Tonnopesce

Dracane wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I think it's a healthy change. DK was the deal breaker for many build ideas, as DKs were able to completely negate so many things.

50% damage reduction is still so much, that you are still basically immortal against ranged attacks. This ability now also works against force shock, if this matters to you.

A skilled sorcerer that support this BS change? woah
I'm pretty shure you have ereased a lot of dk's even when wings had no cap.

But unfortunatly this game have become more of a flat damage reduction that a skilled counterplay, wings where for us a skilled counterplay against ranged builds now we will just walk at them full of snares and poison hoping to get there before execute range (and tree out of six classes have a ranged execute so it will be just absorb up and die for us)

Yust to be clear...
Wait for the sorc frag to proc and flap back in his face IS a skilled counterplay.
Flap casual wings in the battelfield hoping that someone suicide on you is lame.

I'm not skilled and I haven't erased any DKs. All I know, is that DKs were the reason why I wasn't able to rely on elemental weapons and was forced to stick with this trashy force shock.

But I will definately miss seeing fools fly around because they get their flame wheel reflected back at them.

If you are not skilled you are a different person from the original Dracane and you have just bought her account.
Many times i fighted with you and many times you killed me on my dk in IC.

Anyway you made exactly our point on your last sentence
wings and reflecting projectiles was distinctive for the DK class, like sorcerers have shields nb have cloak wardens have wierd animal companions templars have the purge and bol , and necro well i dont know... necroing things around?
Wings was the DK's uniqueness now we will be only flame melee mages.

Solariken

Nope, this is a good change. If you still want the damage return you can select DFS which will be awesome for retaliatory pressure.

The current version of Wings is super abusive to play against in BGs especially. This change has been a long time coming.

juhislihis19

Tonnopesce wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Forum DKs -- the group that gets the most buffs out of the entire patch, but still finds a way to complain.

most of those buffs will never make it to live, like inhale that's why we are complaining about wings

MagDKs maybe. StamDKs didnt get s*** apart from long overdue Breath buff (this was buffed for mDKs as well).

Ratzkifal

I'd prefer if Wings (or at least one morph) kept the reflect, reflected ALL projectiles during its duration, but shortened the time window to be a reactive cast rather than a proactive at an adjusted cost. Reflect is a great ability, but unlike shields, they can return the damage and completely avoid negative effects.

This is coming from a Sorc/Templar btw and as long as it is not too oppressive, getting to face a counter-mechanic like that makes combat interesting. If you are going to reflect my c-frag or snipe, I want you to be intentional about it and not a happy accident!

Tonnopesce

Solariken wrote: »

Nope, this is a good change. If you still want the damage return you can select DFS which will be awesome for retaliatory pressure.

The current version of Wings is super abusive to play against in BGs especially. This change has been a long time coming.

Just to be clear...
you know most of dk's play s&b yes?
you know that most of the popular dk builds can generate ultimate rather quickly yes?
you know we have battle roar yes?
you know that the s&b ultimate cost 100 something and reflect ALL incoming projectiles yes?

Now put all this things togheder, add 50% damage reduction from ranged attacks add the new inhale and you will have the WORST CANCER CLASS EVER.

The new wings only open up something cyrodill have missed since 1.6 , immortal dk's running in the middle of a zerg and taking out everyone.
I'm against this and i have a dk...
We will get nerfed to the ground again after zos realize what a terrible mistake they have done.

Teeba_Shei

Six seconds of 50% damage reduction is pretty huge in large fights. The ability was pretty op to be able to completely ignore ranged attacks. It was a hard counter to anything with ranged and it was part of the reason so many people had to build around it. Having to build around 1 ability shows how broken the ability is.

ccmedaddy

Can someone with access to PTS check what the tooltips are like for the new dragon fire scale? Wondering if it's worth running for flame dmg now that I can get snare removal elsewhere.

BaylorCorvette

casparian wrote: »

Forum DKs -- the group that gets the most buffs out of the entire patch, but still finds a way to complain.

I know right. Meanwhile I'm over here on my StamSorc looking at the only thing I got was Streak scaling with max stats yet still doing magicka damage

OtarTheMad

I will probably get to testing DK today but from reading the patch notes DKs got the most love out of any class really. The reflect change seems like wings will still be pretty OP but tests will tell the tale.

Tonnopesce

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Forum DKs -- the group that gets the most buffs out of the entire patch, but still finds a way to complain.

I know right. Meanwhile I'm over here on my StamSorc looking at the only thing I got was Streak scaling with max stats yet still doing magicka damage

Better than nothing... i was expecting nothing as usual for the stamsorc XD

Xvorg

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Just gonna use mist form.

Yup, as good old Macca said, "Get Back". What's funny is to see all those no DKs saying it is a good change... from their own point of view.

Channeled acceleration looks cool to, and gives you major protection for 1.3 secs

Joy_Division

Tonnopesce wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Forum DKs -- the group that gets the most buffs out of the entire patch, but still finds a way to complain.

most of those buffs will never make it to live, like inhale that's why we are complaining about wings

I will bet real money that most of those buffs will make it to Live. ZoS usually does not alter class changes.

sly007

Reflect needs a duration buff. 6 seconds is too short. Needs to be atleast 10 seconds.