Only 2 new motifs?

starkerealm

zaria wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Morrowind
Morag Tong
Ashlander
Buoyant Armiger
Militant Ordinator
+ Hlaalu
+ Redoran
+ Telvanni

Summerset
Psijic
Sapiarch
Pyandonean
+ Welkynar

Elsweyr
Anequina
+ Pellitine (only coming some time after launch)

Speaks for itself.

Its two motifs who can be earned in game Pellitine for Dragon Hunt dailies, and Anequina for Delve and World Boss dailies
Both will be available at launch, the trial motif will be added later.

Agreeing that Elsweyr is feature poor however.

Which, ironically, ties it with Summerset, as Pyandonean was originally slated as a Psijic Crates exclusive, only to be later added to the game as a natural drop after the negative response. (2 Overland Motifs + 1 Trial Motif)

When compared with Wrothgar (the previous large zone before Vvardenfell) that was also only three motifs (Ancient Orc, Malacath, and Trinnimac.)

So, the outlier here is, again, Morrowind, with its eight motifs (you forgot Refabricated, which we still can't craft.)

Right now, it's probably a bit earlier to start crying foul about whether there's enough content in Elsweyr. Though, to be honest, at this point, even if the zone was stripped to the bone, the presence of Dragons and playable necromancers are probably enough to move copies.

The zone does look very nice, and what little I've seen so far looked reasonably on par with Summerset. Though, it's possible there are surprises in there that expand the map significantly.

Katahdin

We have enough freaking motifs.
Motifs farming online

starkerealm

Edaphon wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Ah, just noticed that it's an Outfit Style and not a true motif. This thread is about true Motifs.

Whoops, total rookie mistake.
Sorry about that.

Iccotak wrote: »

@Edaphon
Where can we see the datamine for Sunspire motif?

Here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468695/data-mining-new-crown-store-items-from-5-0-0/p1

To be fair, Divine Prosecution, Dragon Bone and the SCP/FL Variant armors are functionally motifs in all but name. There's a lot of partial outfit styles in the game, but those include the full spectrum of all three armor weights and full weapon suites.

Compare to the Battleground Outfit Styles which only exist in a single weight, the undaunted weapons, which don't include armor (except head and shoulders) with only a single weapon in each class, or the one off outfit pieces, like the artifact weapons, or Psijic Gauntlets.

But, this gets into a stickier situation. Some outfits are clearly motif replacements. Some are Costume grade (IE only one armor weight), and some are individual pieces. Thing is, since the introduction of the outfit system in 2018, there's been a move towards introducing more outfit styles, independent of the motifs. And, if we're talking about motif production dropping off, it's probably worth remembering that some of that production moved over to outfit styles.

Edaphon

starkerealm wrote: »

Edaphon wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Ah, just noticed that it's an Outfit Style and not a true motif. This thread is about true Motifs.

Whoops, total rookie mistake.
Sorry about that.

Iccotak wrote: »

@Edaphon
Where can we see the datamine for Sunspire motif?

Here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468695/data-mining-new-crown-store-items-from-5-0-0/p1

To be fair, Divine Prosecution, Dragon Bone and the SCP/FL Variant armors are functionally motifs in all but name. There's a lot of partial outfit styles in the game, but those include the full spectrum of all three armor weights and full weapon suites.

Compare to the Battleground Outfit Styles which only exist in a single weight, the undaunted weapons, which don't include armor (except head and shoulders) with only a single weapon in each class, or the one off outfit pieces, like the artifact weapons, or Psijic Gauntlets.

But, this gets into a stickier situation. Some outfits are clearly motif replacements. Some are Costume grade (IE only one armor weight), and some are individual pieces. Thing is, since the introduction of the outfit system in 2018, there's been a move towards introducing more outfit styles, independent of the motifs. And, if we're talking about motif production dropping off, it's probably worth remembering that some of that production moved over to outfit styles.

The confusing part about it is that it's listed under medium armor.
Other outfit styles with only one weight are usually listed as Signature styles and only those with all 3 weights under the normal categories.
But maybe the style just isn't completely finished yet and light and heavy armor will be added with one of the next patches.

starkerealm

Edaphon wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Edaphon wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Ah, just noticed that it's an Outfit Style and not a true motif. This thread is about true Motifs.

Whoops, total rookie mistake.
Sorry about that.

Iccotak wrote: »

@Edaphon
Where can we see the datamine for Sunspire motif?

Here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/468695/data-mining-new-crown-store-items-from-5-0-0/p1

To be fair, Divine Prosecution, Dragon Bone and the SCP/FL Variant armors are functionally motifs in all but name. There's a lot of partial outfit styles in the game, but those include the full spectrum of all three armor weights and full weapon suites.

Compare to the Battleground Outfit Styles which only exist in a single weight, the undaunted weapons, which don't include armor (except head and shoulders) with only a single weapon in each class, or the one off outfit pieces, like the artifact weapons, or Psijic Gauntlets.

But, this gets into a stickier situation. Some outfits are clearly motif replacements. Some are Costume grade (IE only one armor weight), and some are individual pieces. Thing is, since the introduction of the outfit system in 2018, there's been a move towards introducing more outfit styles, independent of the motifs. And, if we're talking about motif production dropping off, it's probably worth remembering that some of that production moved over to outfit styles.

The confusing part about it is that it's listed under medium armor.
Other outfit styles with only one weight are usually listed as Signature styles and only those with all 3 weights under the normal categories.
But maybe the style just isn't completely finished yet and light and heavy armor will be added with one of the next patches.

Yeah, just at a glance, I suspect the Second Legion Style is going to have multiple weights. That said, the datamine makes it look like the weapons will be in the store. Not sure what to make of that.

Nemesis7884

Katahdin wrote: »

We have enough freaking motifs.
Motifs farming online

let me translate this for you

"Because i don't want to do it, you shouldn't be allowed to do it"

Katahdin

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

We have enough freaking motifs.
Motifs farming online

let me translate this to you

"Because i don't want to do it, you shouldn't be allowed to do it"

There are 70+ styles in the game already.
It's enough.

starkerealm

Katahdin wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

We have enough freaking motifs.
Motifs farming online

let me translate this to you

"Because i don't want to do it, you shouldn't be allowed to do it"

There are 70+ styles in the game already.
It's enough.

There are 304 rare fish in the game.
It's enough.

Nemesis7884

Katahdin wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

We have enough freaking motifs.
Motifs farming online

let me translate this to you

"Because i don't want to do it, you shouldn't be allowed to do it"

There are 70+ styles in the game already.
It's enough.

i have millions of clothing styles in real life...never felt overwhelmed

new motifs are one of my major enjoyments in the game

So i am asking again - what gives you the right to restrict my fun while you can simply ignore my fun as it won't impact you at all - this is just a *** attitude that you unfortunatly find all over the place nowadays...must be a millennial thing

Ertosi

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

sho_nuff wrote: »

IMO, delayed content isn’t tied to what its release might coincide with. Fang Lair and Scalecaller are from Dragonbones DLC... their release was just delayed to maintain player interest in the DLC.

That was Faulgor's argument as well, so you're not alone and it sounds good at first, but it's a much more subjective way of looking at when content is added and has faults best to avoid.

Isn't it a reasonable standard to look at achievements and which DLC, Chapter, or other category the motifs are linked to? That is an explicit categorization on the part of ZOS about which motif goes with which expansion.

Not when looking at when each individual piece of content was released.

As an extreme example, and already stated above, there is often a large gap between when a new region/zone/dungeon is added and when various new content is added to drop there. Sometimes that gap is massive, like the example I gave for the Ra Gada motif. The motif was added in Q1 '17 and drops in Craglorn which came out with the base game in '14. Yes, it drops in Craglorn, so it's now considered part of that zone, but it was not released with that zone, it was released 3 years later.

Feel free to read the rest of my original comment you only partially quoted for more in-depth examples as to why your method of sorting is a subjective approach while sorting by Patch Notes is objective.

starkerealm

Ertosi wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

sho_nuff wrote: »

IMO, delayed content isn’t tied to what its release might coincide with. Fang Lair and Scalecaller are from Dragonbones DLC... their release was just delayed to maintain player interest in the DLC.

That was Faulgor's argument as well, so you're not alone and it sounds good at first, but it's a much more subjective way of looking at when content is added and has faults best to avoid.

Isn't it a reasonable standard to look at achievements and which DLC, Chapter, or other category the motifs are linked to? That is an explicit categorization on the part of ZOS about which motif goes with which expansion.

Not when looking at when each individual piece of content was released.

As an extreme example, and already stated above, there is often a large gap between when a new region/zone/dungeon is added and when various new content is added to drop there. Sometimes that gap is massive, like the example I gave for the Ra Gada motif. The motif was added in Q1 '17 and drops in Craglorn which came out with the base game in '14. Yes, it drops in Craglorn, so it's now considered part of that zone, but it was not released with that zone, it was released 3 years later.

Feel free to read the rest of my original comment you only partially quoted for more in-depth examples as to why your method of sorting is a subjective approach while sorting by Patch Notes is objective.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first examples of Ra Gada appearing in game was with Thieves Guild. (Or at least concept art for the motif was marked for TG.) Meaning that the motif was in development sometime in late 2015, early 2016. Didn't release until Q1 '17, and was attached to a zone released in Q3 2014.

Yeah, that's a weird one. Though, there's a few other strange paths to development for some of the other motifs that we could probably tease out a bit. So, yeah, this is bonkers.

reoskit

starkerealm wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

sho_nuff wrote: »

IMO, delayed content isn’t tied to what its release might coincide with. Fang Lair and Scalecaller are from Dragonbones DLC... their release was just delayed to maintain player interest in the DLC.

That was Faulgor's argument as well, so you're not alone and it sounds good at first, but it's a much more subjective way of looking at when content is added and has faults best to avoid.

Isn't it a reasonable standard to look at achievements and which DLC, Chapter, or other category the motifs are linked to? That is an explicit categorization on the part of ZOS about which motif goes with which expansion.

Not when looking at when each individual piece of content was released.

As an extreme example, and already stated above, there is often a large gap between when a new region/zone/dungeon is added and when various new content is added to drop there. Sometimes that gap is massive, like the example I gave for the Ra Gada motif. The motif was added in Q1 '17 and drops in Craglorn which came out with the base game in '14. Yes, it drops in Craglorn, so it's now considered part of that zone, but it was not released with that zone, it was released 3 years later.

Feel free to read the rest of my original comment you only partially quoted for more in-depth examples as to why your method of sorting is a subjective approach while sorting by Patch Notes is objective.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first examples of Ra Gada appearing in game was with Thieves Guild. (Or at least concept art for the motif was marked for TG.) Meaning that the motif was in development sometime in late 2015, early 2016. Didn't release until Q1 '17, and was attached to a zone released in Q3 2014.

Yeah, that's a weird one. Though, there's a few other strange paths to development for some of the other motifs that we could probably tease out a bit. So, yeah, this is bonkers.

Didn't Ra Gada come out when they revamped Crag for One Tamriel, though?

jypcy

Also worth noting why you’d consider a motif to come with a given context. If you’re arguing that you’re paying for a chapter and should be entitled to x number of motifs to come with it, that’s not really a valid argument because you don’t even need to own the chapter to complete its motifs (unless that’s changed recently).

If you’re arguing that you expect a dynamic game to continue to release a steady stream of motifs for style enthusiasts, then I think Ertosi’s argument is correct. It doesn’t matter where they drop in game but when they’re released. And as they pointed out, 2017 released far more motifs than 2018 did or 2019 has thus far, but there’s still time in 2019 for it to match or surpass 2018’s number of motifs. Maybe you’re still expecting 2017 levels of motifs every year, which is fine, although personally I think it’s reasonable for the number of motifs released in a given period to diminish over time.

starkerealm

reoskit wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

sho_nuff wrote: »

IMO, delayed content isn’t tied to what its release might coincide with. Fang Lair and Scalecaller are from Dragonbones DLC... their release was just delayed to maintain player interest in the DLC.

That was Faulgor's argument as well, so you're not alone and it sounds good at first, but it's a much more subjective way of looking at when content is added and has faults best to avoid.

Isn't it a reasonable standard to look at achievements and which DLC, Chapter, or other category the motifs are linked to? That is an explicit categorization on the part of ZOS about which motif goes with which expansion.

Not when looking at when each individual piece of content was released.

As an extreme example, and already stated above, there is often a large gap between when a new region/zone/dungeon is added and when various new content is added to drop there. Sometimes that gap is massive, like the example I gave for the Ra Gada motif. The motif was added in Q1 '17 and drops in Craglorn which came out with the base game in '14. Yes, it drops in Craglorn, so it's now considered part of that zone, but it was not released with that zone, it was released 3 years later.

Feel free to read the rest of my original comment you only partially quoted for more in-depth examples as to why your method of sorting is a subjective approach while sorting by Patch Notes is objective.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first examples of Ra Gada appearing in game was with Thieves Guild. (Or at least concept art for the motif was marked for TG.) Meaning that the motif was in development sometime in late 2015, early 2016. Didn't release until Q1 '17, and was attached to a zone released in Q3 2014.

Yeah, that's a weird one. Though, there's a few other strange paths to development for some of the other motifs that we could probably tease out a bit. So, yeah, this is bonkers.

Didn't Ra Gada come out when they revamped Crag for One Tamriel, though?

As a motif yes. But the assets were in development for Thieves Guild.

Here:



I want to say it showed up on NPCs in TG, but I'm not 100% certain of that off hand.

EDIT: Apparently Syvarra's Scales drops in Ra Gada. So, that would put it in the Thieves Guild drop list. Just, not craftible until One Tamriel.

EDIT2: And then there's this thread from 2016 talking about how the Ra Gada style being unique to that set.

starkerealm

jypcy wrote: »

Also worth noting why you’d consider a motif to come with a given context. If you’re arguing that you’re paying for a chapter and should be entitled to x number of motifs to come with it, that’s not really a valid argument because you don’t even need to own the chapter to complete its motifs (unless that’s changed recently).

If you’re arguing that you expect a dynamic game to continue to release a steady stream of motifs for style enthusiasts, then I think Ertosi’s argument is correct. It doesn’t matter where they drop in game but when they’re released. And as they pointed out, 2017 released far more motifs than 2018 did or 2019 has thus far, but there’s still time in 2019 for it to match or surpass 2018’s number of motifs. Maybe you’re still expecting 2017 levels of motifs every year, which is fine, although personally I think it’s reasonable for the number of motifs released in a given period to diminish over time.

Also, if we're making the argument that this is for style enthusiasts, the transition to outfit styles suddenly becomes far more relevant. As that fills the same role, without further bloating the style stone list, and without requiring that players use crafted gear to achieve their desired look.

MasterSpatula

I’m fine with this. There are honestly more than enough of these to chase already.

Ertosi

starkerealm wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

sho_nuff wrote: »

IMO, delayed content isn’t tied to what its release might coincide with. Fang Lair and Scalecaller are from Dragonbones DLC... their release was just delayed to maintain player interest in the DLC.

That was Faulgor's argument as well, so you're not alone and it sounds good at first, but it's a much more subjective way of looking at when content is added and has faults best to avoid.

Isn't it a reasonable standard to look at achievements and which DLC, Chapter, or other category the motifs are linked to? That is an explicit categorization on the part of ZOS about which motif goes with which expansion.

Not when looking at when each individual piece of content was released.

As an extreme example, and already stated above, there is often a large gap between when a new region/zone/dungeon is added and when various new content is added to drop there. Sometimes that gap is massive, like the example I gave for the Ra Gada motif. The motif was added in Q1 '17 and drops in Craglorn which came out with the base game in '14. Yes, it drops in Craglorn, so it's now considered part of that zone, but it was not released with that zone, it was released 3 years later.

Feel free to read the rest of my original comment you only partially quoted for more in-depth examples as to why your method of sorting is a subjective approach while sorting by Patch Notes is objective.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first examples of Ra Gada appearing in game was with Thieves Guild. (Or at least concept art for the motif was marked for TG.) Meaning that the motif was in development sometime in late 2015, early 2016. Didn't release until Q1 '17, and was attached to a zone released in Q3 2014.

Yeah, that's a weird one. Though, there's a few other strange paths to development for some of the other motifs that we could probably tease out a bit. So, yeah, this is bonkers.

I'm not seeing it listed in any Patch Notes until Homestead:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/318838/

The notes state:
New Motifs
Update 13 brings four new Motifs for you to collect and craft!

But then have an odd wording:
•The Ra Gada style can now be found in Craglorn.


So they're saying it's new, but then that it can now be found in Crag. Again, I see no references to it before then, but am certainly open to having missed them (please post if you find patch notes stating otherwise).

And yes, it's a weird one, which is why it's a great example as to why it's important to have a simple, uniform, objective way of comparing when individual new content was added to the game. Things cannot get more simple then "When is it listed in the Patch Notes?" (Well, if they can get more simple, I'm certainly open to suggestions, but the answer will have to be at least as objective.)

starkerealm

Ertosi wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

sho_nuff wrote: »

IMO, delayed content isn’t tied to what its release might coincide with. Fang Lair and Scalecaller are from Dragonbones DLC... their release was just delayed to maintain player interest in the DLC.

That was Faulgor's argument as well, so you're not alone and it sounds good at first, but it's a much more subjective way of looking at when content is added and has faults best to avoid.

Isn't it a reasonable standard to look at achievements and which DLC, Chapter, or other category the motifs are linked to? That is an explicit categorization on the part of ZOS about which motif goes with which expansion.

Not when looking at when each individual piece of content was released.

As an extreme example, and already stated above, there is often a large gap between when a new region/zone/dungeon is added and when various new content is added to drop there. Sometimes that gap is massive, like the example I gave for the Ra Gada motif. The motif was added in Q1 '17 and drops in Craglorn which came out with the base game in '14. Yes, it drops in Craglorn, so it's now considered part of that zone, but it was not released with that zone, it was released 3 years later.

Feel free to read the rest of my original comment you only partially quoted for more in-depth examples as to why your method of sorting is a subjective approach while sorting by Patch Notes is objective.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first examples of Ra Gada appearing in game was with Thieves Guild. (Or at least concept art for the motif was marked for TG.) Meaning that the motif was in development sometime in late 2015, early 2016. Didn't release until Q1 '17, and was attached to a zone released in Q3 2014.

Yeah, that's a weird one. Though, there's a few other strange paths to development for some of the other motifs that we could probably tease out a bit. So, yeah, this is bonkers.

I'm not seeing it listed in any Patch Notes until Homestead:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/318838/

The notes state:
New Motifs
Update 13 brings four new Motifs for you to collect and craft!

But then have an odd wording:
•The Ra Gada style can now be found in Craglorn.


So they're saying it's new, but then that it can now be found in Crag. Again, I see no references to it before then, but an certainly open to having missed them (please post if you find patch notes stating otherwise).

And yes, it's a weird one, which is why it's a great example as to why it's important to have a simple, uniform, objective way of comparing when individual new content was added to the game. Things cannot get more simple then "When is it listed in the Patch Notes?" (Well, if they can get more simple, I'm certainly open to suggestions, but the answer will have to be at least as objective.)

Again, I posted edits. It doesn't show up in patch notes because the only prior "source" for the motif was on Syvarra's Scales pieces that dropped pre-One Tamriel. (Not sure what motif Syvarra's Scales is now.) The patch notes themselves rarely note what motif sets drop in. However, we do have a thread from October 2016 stating the set dropped in that motif (provoked because it had started dropping in Thieves Guild instead.)

Now, it's worth remembering, the crafting motif wasn't available until 2017, but the motif was used on drop gear going back to March 2016.

So, do we count when the motif started dropping in game on items? When it became craftable? Or the content it was attached to? (Which in this case could be either Craglorn or Hew's Bane depending on your interpretation.)

Ertosi

starkerealm wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

sho_nuff wrote: »

IMO, delayed content isn’t tied to what its release might coincide with. Fang Lair and Scalecaller are from Dragonbones DLC... their release was just delayed to maintain player interest in the DLC.

That was Faulgor's argument as well, so you're not alone and it sounds good at first, but it's a much more subjective way of looking at when content is added and has faults best to avoid.

Isn't it a reasonable standard to look at achievements and which DLC, Chapter, or other category the motifs are linked to? That is an explicit categorization on the part of ZOS about which motif goes with which expansion.

Not when looking at when each individual piece of content was released.

As an extreme example, and already stated above, there is often a large gap between when a new region/zone/dungeon is added and when various new content is added to drop there. Sometimes that gap is massive, like the example I gave for the Ra Gada motif. The motif was added in Q1 '17 and drops in Craglorn which came out with the base game in '14. Yes, it drops in Craglorn, so it's now considered part of that zone, but it was not released with that zone, it was released 3 years later.

Feel free to read the rest of my original comment you only partially quoted for more in-depth examples as to why your method of sorting is a subjective approach while sorting by Patch Notes is objective.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first examples of Ra Gada appearing in game was with Thieves Guild. (Or at least concept art for the motif was marked for TG.) Meaning that the motif was in development sometime in late 2015, early 2016. Didn't release until Q1 '17, and was attached to a zone released in Q3 2014.

Yeah, that's a weird one. Though, there's a few other strange paths to development for some of the other motifs that we could probably tease out a bit. So, yeah, this is bonkers.

I'm not seeing it listed in any Patch Notes until Homestead:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/318838/

The notes state:
New Motifs
Update 13 brings four new Motifs for you to collect and craft!

But then have an odd wording:
•The Ra Gada style can now be found in Craglorn.


So they're saying it's new, but then that it can now be found in Crag. Again, I see no references to it before then, but an certainly open to having missed them (please post if you find patch notes stating otherwise).

And yes, it's a weird one, which is why it's a great example as to why it's important to have a simple, uniform, objective way of comparing when individual new content was added to the game. Things cannot get more simple then "When is it listed in the Patch Notes?" (Well, if they can get more simple, I'm certainly open to suggestions, but the answer will have to be at least as objective.)

Again, I posted edits. It doesn't show up in patch notes because the only prior "source" for the motif was on Syvarra's Scales pieces that dropped pre-One Tamriel. (Not sure what motif Syvarra's Scales is now.) The patch notes themselves rarely note what motif sets drop in. However, we do have a thread from October 2016 stating the set dropped in that motif (provoked because it had started dropping in Thieves Guild instead.)

Now, it's worth remembering, the crafting motif wasn't available until 2017, but the motif was used on drop gear going back to March 2016.

So, do we count when the motif started dropping in game on items? When it became craftable? Or the content it was attached to? (Which in this case could be either Craglorn or Hew's Bane depending on your interpretation.)

Well, that sounds due to the two different definitions of "Motifs". It's in no way uncommon for dropped sets to drop in various motifs well before the equivalent "Crafting Motif" is added to the game. For the purposes of this thread, if I'm understanding right, all references to "motifs" have been referring to only "Crafting Motifs".

So, do we count when the motif started dropping in game on items? When it became craftable? Or the content it was attached to? (Which in this case could be either Craglorn or Hew's Bane depending on your interpretation.)

When it became craftable. Going with that meets two important criteria:

• Motifs are only listed in Patch Notes once they become craftable motifs.
• Players are normally only concerned with new motifs when they become craftable motifs.

starkerealm

Ertosi wrote: »

Well, that sounds due to the two different definitions of "Motifs". It's in no way uncommon for dropped sets to drop in various motifs well before the equivalent "Crafting Motif" is added to the game. For the purposes of this thread, if I'm understanding right, all references to "motifs" have been referring to only "Crafting Motifs".

Not really.

All items in the game have an assigned motif. Some are craftable. Some are not. The entire discussion on assigning a motif to the content it's associated with, rather than the actual release date opens the door on this. At that point we are discussing motifs that were not included in the crafting system but did exist in the game at that point.

For example: If we're willing to consider the dungeon motifs as belonging to their relevant release, rather than the date they were grafted back on, we're already including motifs that were (at the time) not craftable, and only existed on drop sets.

Like I said, it's a strange case, but not even the weirdest one on the list.

If you want to get weird, we can move Silken Ring to Mirkmire using the 2014 QuakeCon presentation.

Ertosi

starkerealm wrote: »

If you want to get weird, we can move Silken Ring to Mirkmire using the 2014 QuakeCon presentation.

The better comparison of what the other side is arguing would be to compare moving Silken Ring and Mazzatun to the third quarter of 2016 as they drop in the Shadows of the Hist dungeons, but weren't added until 2 quarters later with the Homestead update.

I don't think anyone has been suggesting using art previews and sneak peeks as a standard for when various motifs were added, at least not until you mentioned the same for Ra Gada. Thus far, the debate has been should they be retroactively attached to when their respective zone/dungeon came out or when they literally were added to the game assets (as listed in Patch Notes).

starkerealm

Ertosi wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

If you want to get weird, we can move Silken Ring to Mirkmire using the 2014 QuakeCon presentation.

The better comparison of what the other side is arguing would be to compare moving Silken Ring and Mazzatun to the third quarter of 2016 as they drop in the Shadows of the Hist dungeons, but weren't added until 2 quarters later with the Homestead update.

I don't think anyone has been suggesting using art previews and sneak peaks as a standard for when various motifs were added, at least not until you mentioned the same for Ra Gada. Thus far, the debate has been should they be retroactively attached to when their respective zone/dungeon came out or when they literally were added to the game assets (as listed in Patch Notes).

The problem with Ra Gada is, it was added to the game. This isn't just an art preview issue. I'll link that thread again. What you're tracking with patch notes is when it was added to the crafting system.

For example, I'd be truly surprised if you can find patch notes (on the PTS) mentioning War Maiden's original motif, which never made it to live.

Ertosi

starkerealm wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Well, that sounds due to the two different definitions of "Motifs". It's in no way uncommon for dropped sets to drop in various motifs well before the equivalent "Crafting Motif" is added to the game. For the purposes of this thread, if I'm understanding right, all references to "motifs" have been referring to only "Crafting Motifs".

Not really.

All items in the game have an assigned motif. Some are craftable. Some are not. The entire discussion on assigning a motif to the content it's associated with, rather than the actual release date opens the door on this. At that point we are discussing motifs that were not included in the crafting system but did exist in the game at that point.

To address this part, I'll state that items dropped with a Motif are not the same thing as a Crafted Motif. This thread is only concerning Crafted Mofits. As evidence that a dropped item with a Motif is not the same thing as a Crafted Motif, I'll submit that while they usually color the same, they do not always color the same (varies by set), proving they are in fact different assets. It's a rare occurrence, and the only example I can think of off the top of my head instead uses a style page, which works the same as the outfitting style unlocks you get after learning a new Crafted Motif style. The example I'm thinking of is Iceheart. To see it yourself, grab an actual Iceheart monster mask and shoulder set, and their related style pages. Use the real dropped set and color it. Do the same afterwards with the style pages. Notice that they have different color zones and are not the same thing despite looking the same.

So we are not, and have not, been discussing motifs that are not included in the crafting system. This whole discussion has been about Craftable Motifs, but simply shorthanded it to Motif.


Edit: Additionally, ZOS themselves don't consider a motif as having been "added to the game" until it is able to have it's pages collected and crafted by players. Quoted from Patch Notes whenever they list new "motifs":

New Motifs
Update [ X ] brings [ N ] new Motifs for you to collect and craft!

When they speak of "motifs" they are also referencing Craftable Motifs in shorthand.

starkerealm

Ertosi wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

Well, that sounds due to the two different definitions of "Motifs". It's in no way uncommon for dropped sets to drop in various motifs well before the equivalent "Crafting Motif" is added to the game. For the purposes of this thread, if I'm understanding right, all references to "motifs" have been referring to only "Crafting Motifs".

Not really.

All items in the game have an assigned motif. Some are craftable. Some are not. The entire discussion on assigning a motif to the content it's associated with, rather than the actual release date opens the door on this. At that point we are discussing motifs that were not included in the crafting system but did exist in the game at that point.

To address this part, I'll state that items dropped with a Motif are not the same thing as a Crafted Motif. This thread is only concerning Crafted Mofits. As evidence that a dropped item with a Motif is not the same thing as a Crafted Motif, I'll submit that while they usually color the same, they do not always color the same (varies by set), proving they are in fact different assets. It's a rare occurrence, and the only example I can think of off the top of my head instead uses a style page, which works the same as the outfitting style unlocks you get after learning a new Crafted Motif style. The example I'm thinking of is Iceheart. To see it yourself, grab an actual Iceheart monster mask and shoulder set, and their related style pages. Use the real dropped set and color it. Do the same afterwards with the style pages. Notice that they have different color zones and are not the same thing despite looking the same.

So we are not, and have not, been discussing motifs that are not included in the crafting system. This whole discussion has been about Craftable Motifs, but simply shorthanded it to Motif.

Yeah, if we're getting into the monster sets, that's an entirely different animal.

Ignoring Iceheart for the moment, most drop sets in the game have a fixed motifs. As far as I know, those motifs match to the crafted versions completely. There are few near misses. Ebon Armory looks a lot like the Ebony Motif, though it's obviously not the same.

So, with that in mind, yeah, drop sets use the same, basic, motif structure as crafted items. There are a few cases where drop sets use motifs that cannot be accessed by the crafting system. Refabricated, the original versions of Ashlander and Worm Cult, Maomer, Nedic, (seen on NPCs and costumes), whatever Hircine's Veneer is, and so on.

But, when it comes to sets that then drop in a recognizable motif that's later added to the crafting system, those are, as far I can tell, in that motif. It's not like there's some switch over where it goes from being a drop motif to a crafted one. It's the same assets.

Monster sets don't seem to work the same way. In those cases, they don't have an assigned motif. I'm not sure what happened with Iceheart, but the color channels on the outfit page got scrambled.

Ertosi

starkerealm wrote: »

But, when it comes to sets that then drop in a recognizable motif that's later added to the crafting system, those are, as far I can tell, in that motif. It's not like there's some switch over where it goes from being a drop motif to a crafted one. It's the same assets.

Monster sets don't seem to work the same way. In those cases, they don't have an assigned motif. I'm not sure what happened with Iceheart, but the color channels on the outfit page got scrambled.

As a programmer, I can assure you the fact that they have different color channels directly proves that they are not the same assets. If they were the same assets, they would automatically reference the same color channel information. The fact that even one is different proves they are different assets which have to be manually set up separately, and are supposed to be given the same color channels to give the illusion of being the same items to players.

Anyways

The longer we talk about minutiae like this, the further the thread derails. Lets try to instead keep the thread on track and relevant to when various crafted motifs were added to the game.

starkerealm

Ertosi wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

But, when it comes to sets that then drop in a recognizable motif that's later added to the crafting system, those are, as far I can tell, in that motif. It's not like there's some switch over where it goes from being a drop motif to a crafted one. It's the same assets.

Monster sets don't seem to work the same way. In those cases, they don't have an assigned motif. I'm not sure what happened with Iceheart, but the color channels on the outfit page got scrambled.

As a programmer, I can assure you the fact that they have different color channels directly proves that they are not the same assets. If they were the same assets, they would automatically reference the same color channel information. The fact that even one is different proves they are different assets which have to be manually set up separately, and are supposed to be given the same color channels to give the illusion of being the same items to players.

Anyways

The longer we talk about minutiae like this, the further the thread derails. Lets try to instead keep the thread on track and relevant to when various crafted motifs were added to the game.

Yeah, that's kinda what I'm saying about the monster sets in general, they're weird.

So the main issues are:

How do we determine when a motif was added?

And:

What counts as, "a motif?"

The problem with this is, adjusting these two rules can vastly distort the resulting data. I'm not being obstinate for the purpose of picking a fight or trolling, it's actually digging back to this question.

If the idea is we're not getting our money's worth, then focusing on DLCs as the release point, and the actual release of pages, will make Elsweyr look much worse than it is. And, will promote the idea that ZOS is starting to coast, releasing less content.

The problem is, that approach is a little dishonest because player customization was seriously overhauled in Q1 2018. If we were categorizing Motifs released in 2017 two years ago, the idea of, "style pages," would be alien, because they didn't exist yet.

So, is it actually less content, or has player customization been moved elsewhere? (Pun not intended.)

So, like I said, I'm not just trying to torment you, I'm trying to get at what you want from this thread? Is it about player customization options being curtailed, or is it about selecting the criteria for that to further your perceptions of events. (Also, in case you're wondering, that's not pejorative. If you're honestly looking at the motifs and thinking, "damn, they've really started cutting corners," it might be important to remember that this entire topic intersects with a major design change to how these systems are used, two years ago.