Let's talk wardens, still the worst PvE class after 2 years

chetter_hummin

@OP are u talk about eso? about warden class? I ll suppose otherwise u re just rumbling around speaking non sense. stam wardens are top togheder with stam blades. usage means they are no strong??? using same argument of usage means that 10k dps is ok, because majority of eso players cant pull hodor like high numbers.

that was a good joke nonetheless, wardens being bad dps. your inability to pull high numbers with it does not mean the class is bad.

MLGProPlayer

chetter_hummin wrote: »

@OP are u talk about eso? about warden class? I ll suppose otherwise u re just rumbling around speaking non sense. stam wardens are top togheder with stam blades. usage means they are no strong??? using same argument of usage means that 10k dps is ok, because majority of eso players cant pull hodor like high numbers.

that was a good joke nonetheless, wardens being bad dps. your inability to pull high numbers with it does not mean the class is bad.

I gave you statistics. You gave me drivel.

Try again.

Olupajmibanan

Aren't Wardens:
1. the second best stamina DPS (after stamblade)?
2. the second best tank? Well, after Necromancer he might fall to 3rd best place.
3. one of the best stam specs for PvP? Even players in forums poll showed opinion that warden competes with stamblade for TOP spot.
4. the best bow/bow class? Again Necromancer might change this.

And for your evaluation. Show me the distribution of stamina DPS usage and not overall statistics. Show me the tank usage. And so on. That would be accurate, this can't be used as reference. It's pretty obvious that at least 16,66% of the leaderboard will be DK (2 DK tanks im every trial group), 8,33% will be templars (1 templar healer) and 8,33% sorcerers (1 sorc healer and alkosh slave).

If there was a statistic for given trial role, I am sure that Warden is for example used much more for stamDPS than other non-stamblade classes.

MLGProPlayer

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Aren't Wardens:
1. the second best stamina DPS (after stamblade)?
2. the second best tank? Well, after Necromancer he might fall to 3rd best place.
3. one of the best stam specs for PvP? Even players in forums poll showed opinion that warden competes with stamblade for TOP spot.
4. the best bow/bow class? Again Necromancer might change this.

And for your evaluation. Show me the distribution of stamina DPS usage and not overall statistics. That would be accurate, this can't be used as reference.

This is about PvE. And NB outparses stamden bow/bow.

Olupajmibanan

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Aren't Wardens:
1. the second best stamina DPS (after stamblade)?
2. the second best tank? Well, after Necromancer he might fall to 3rd best place.
3. one of the best stam specs for PvP? Even players in forums poll showed opinion that warden competes with stamblade for TOP spot.
4. the best bow/bow class? Again Necromancer might change this.

And for your evaluation. Show me the distribution of stamina DPS usage and not overall statistics. That would be accurate, this can't be used as reference.

This is about PvE. And NB outparses stamden bow/bow.

Not with Elsweyr change where Stamden can still use Stormfist but NB is forced to Slimecraw.

Olupajmibanan

Simply stamden is a solid choice and you'd rather invite stamden than stamsorcs or stamDKs.

wheem_ESO

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Magden was king and terror of "group" PVP since that cancer ice snare build was developed by someone. Now with massive nerf of snares, they might receive some buffs to damage to compensate, but I guess devs want to see if they nerfed snares enough.

The snaring and rooting are mostly due to Wall of Frost, which can be utilized by any other class to essentially the same degree. Beyond that one ability, Wardens have a 30% snare in a small area, and a 70% snare on an 8 second duration, 200 cost Ultimate (which is obviously nerfed on the PTS).

But Magicka Wardens in PvP don't really need straight damage buffs; instead they need buffs to their ability to actually make that damage land. The burst is pretty strong if you catch someone off guard, but against a decent player that knows you're there, playing an offensive Magicka Warden is a lesson in frustration.

MLGProPlayer

Yo Brian, can we get an explanation on why you hate wardens? We've been waiting since May 23rd, 2017.

Juhasow

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Defining which class is worst in PvE based on leaderboards is kinda silly.

It's the most objective way to do it as this is the highest level of play.

There is nothing objective about that. Highest level of play have nothing to do with which class is the worst in PvE. It just shows which builds are preffered to use in certain content by people who wants to fight for scores.

Juhasow

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

chetter_hummin wrote: »

@OP are u talk about eso? about warden class? I ll suppose otherwise u re just rumbling around speaking non sense. stam wardens are top togheder with stam blades. usage means they are no strong??? using same argument of usage means that 10k dps is ok, because majority of eso players cant pull hodor like high numbers.

that was a good joke nonetheless, wardens being bad dps. your inability to pull high numbers with it does not mean the class is bad.

I gave you statistics. You gave me drivel.

Try again.

You just give Your personal interpretation of leaderboards. There is a long distance from that to actual statistics which could allow us to know which class is the worst. For now Your statistics can just tell us which class is least played in leaderboard runs nothing more. It reminds me people claming vet DLC dungeons have low completion ratio based on ps4 statistics where in reality those statistics shows something completly opposite if You know how statistics works.

MLGProPlayer

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Defining which class is worst in PvE based on leaderboards is kinda silly.

It's the most objective way to do it as this is the highest level of play.

There is nothing objective about that. Highest level of play have nothing to do with which class is the worst in PvE. It just shows which builds are preffered to use in certain content by people who wants to fight for scores.

These are the most effective setups for completing endgame content. That's not something that is up for debate.

Juhasow

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Defining which class is worst in PvE based on leaderboards is kinda silly.

It's the most objective way to do it as this is the highest level of play.

There is nothing objective about that. Highest level of play have nothing to do with which class is the worst in PvE. It just shows which builds are preffered to use in certain content by people who wants to fight for scores.

These are the most effective setups for completing endgame content. That's not something that is up for debate.

Still that have nothing to do with which class is the worst in PvE.

MLGProPlayer

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Defining which class is worst in PvE based on leaderboards is kinda silly.

It's the most objective way to do it as this is the highest level of play.

There is nothing objective about that. Highest level of play have nothing to do with which class is the worst in PvE. It just shows which builds are preffered to use in certain content by people who wants to fight for scores.

These are the most effective setups for completing endgame content. That's not something that is up for debate.

Still that have nothing to do with which class is the worst in PvE.

The least desirable class for endgame PvE content is the worst. If you constantly have to switch off a class when doing trials, it means that class needs buffs. Teams want to complete content as efficiently as possible.

highkingnm

Terrible use of metrics.

Warden came out after 3 years, meaning a large bulk of characters in the game (endgame toons at least) were likely created before the Warden came out. Then it was not great, but not terrible for a year or so, whilst also being a premium class. So a premium class which was seen as a bit disappointing, of course uptake was low. I’d say that to shoot up to about 8% having only been out for less than half the time the other classes have been out isn’t too shabby. Organised groups had their mains and used groups which had never needed a warden. This is still the case for many. Why mess with a dynamic that has worked in a group that you’ve been part of for years?

Also, raid guilds do have a place for wardens. We always run, in my raids, one DK main tank and one Warden off tank. My stamden is my equal highest damage dealer and is also one of my best survivors. It really does come down to the fact it is a premium class and young compared to others. Mark my words, in two years time, there will probably be similar rates for Necros.

Tl;dr: your usage of statistics is bad and you should feel bad.

E: you also, above, say best DPS class is sorc. Could you explain why that has second lowest leaderboard rate for most trials you cited then please?

Ermiq

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Defining which class is worst in PvE based on leaderboards is kinda silly.

It's the most objective way to do it as this is the highest level of play.

There is nothing objective about that. Highest level of play have nothing to do with which class is the worst in PvE. It just shows which builds are preffered to use in certain content by people who wants to fight for scores.

These are the most effective setups for completing endgame content. That's not something that is up for debate.

Still that have nothing to do with which class is the worst in PvE.

It's like:

- Hey, why there are just a few low-growth players in basketball teams?
- Still that have nothing to do with which tall is the worst in basketball.

Ariades_swe

Scrub pvers hitting computer ai arguing is always fun.
Keep it coming.

Juhasow

Ermiq wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Defining which class is worst in PvE based on leaderboards is kinda silly.

It's the most objective way to do it as this is the highest level of play.

There is nothing objective about that. Highest level of play have nothing to do with which class is the worst in PvE. It just shows which builds are preffered to use in certain content by people who wants to fight for scores.

These are the most effective setups for completing endgame content. That's not something that is up for debate.

Still that have nothing to do with which class is the worst in PvE.

It's like:

- Hey, why there are just a few low-growth players in basketball teams?
- Still that have nothing to do with which tall is the worst in basketball.

It's funny comparision but completly out of context. Fact that there is lot of 200 cm players in NBA basketball doesnt mean 190 cm people are the worst at playing any form of basketball.

Wardens are not the worst PvE class. They're just not number 1 PvE class.

Ulfgarde

Yes, please buff magden's damage so it becomes even more insane in PvP.

Signed,
Literally every Magden in Cyrodiil

LiquidPony

What kind of testing has been done on Wardens on the current PTS?

Even factoring in the 100% crit bug on the Trial dummy, they seem to be hitting pretty hard.

90k+ seems feasible on the magwarden, completely solo on the 21mil skeleton. Haven't spent enough time on the stamden to say what its ceiling might be.

It's also worth noting that Wardens are now the only class with built-in Minor Berserk in their kit, which might shift the meta a bit in their favor for content where you won't necessarily have (or want) multiple healers ensuring 100% Combat Prayer uptime.

Be interesting to see how it shakes out over this PTS cycle.

MLGProPlayer

highkingnm wrote: »

Terrible use of metrics.

Warden came out after 3 years, meaning a large bulk of characters in the game (endgame toons at least) were likely created before the Warden came out. Then it was not great, but not terrible for a year or so, whilst also being a premium class. So a premium class which was seen as a bit disappointing, of course uptake was low. I’d say that to shoot up to about 8% having only been out for less than half the time the other classes have been out isn’t too shabby. Organised groups had their mains and used groups which had never needed a warden. This is still the case for many. Why mess with a dynamic that has worked in a group that you’ve been part of for years?

Also, raid guilds do have a place for wardens. We always run, in my raids, one DK main tank and one Warden off tank. My stamden is my equal highest damage dealer and is also one of my best survivors. It really does come down to the fact it is a premium class and young compared to others. Mark my words, in two years time, there will probably be similar rates for Necros.

Tl;dr: your usage of statistics is bad and you should feel bad.

E: you also, above, say best DPS class is sorc. Could you explain why that has second lowest leaderboard rate for most trials you cited then please?

If necros launch in their current state, I guarantee they will be 30-40% of the population on day 1. This has nothing to do with the newness of the class and everything with how they aren't the best at anything.

Magicka DPS: 5th
Stamina DPS: 2nd (but everyone on stamina is extremely close)
Tank: 2nd
Healer: 3rd

Necro will likely bump them down another rank in each of these roles.

Sorcs were only used as off-healers until Wrathstone because they were nerfed, hence the low numbers (they were effectively in the same position as wardens).

Nevasca

They are not the worst PvE class, at all. They are the worst magDPS, and that's that. The last update made stamden compete with stamblade, but sadly stamina is not as competitive due to the melee nature.

Wardens are excelent healers and tanks. You need at least one in your group to have Minor Toughness which is a really important group buff. Ideally you will always have a Warden healer in your group. Wardens have low % on trials because they are only viable at support roles, and guess what, the other 8 roles are DPS. And you don't "need" more than one Warden so people will play other classes due to preference/redundancy.

MLGProPlayer

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

They are not the worst PvE class, at all. They are the worst magDPS, and that's that. The last update made stamden compete with stamblade, but sadly stamina is not as competitive due to the melee nature.

Wardens are excelent healers and tanks. You need at least one in your group to have Minor Toughness which is a really important group buff. Ideally you will always have a Warden healer in your group. Wardens have low % on trials because they are only viable at support roles, and guess what, the other 8 roles are DPS. And you don't "need" more than one Warden so people will play other classes due to preference/redundancy.

And that's the problem.

Warden's fill a single role, and that's not even a primary role (they are almost exclusively played as off-tanks).

Nevasca

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

They are not the worst PvE class, at all. They are the worst magDPS, and that's that. The last update made stamden compete with stamblade, but sadly stamina is not as competitive due to the melee nature.

Wardens are excelent healers and tanks. You need at least one in your group to have Minor Toughness which is a really important group buff. Ideally you will always have a Warden healer in your group. Wardens have low % on trials because they are only viable at support roles, and guess what, the other 8 roles are DPS. And you don't "need" more than one Warden so people will play other classes due to preference/redundancy.

And that's the problem.

Warden's fill a single role, and that's not even a primary role (they are almost exclusively played as off-tanks).

I agree that's a problem, but claiming it's the worst role in PvE is just false.

Starlight_Knight

The warden has such an identity problem and feels unfinished..
My warden and i have a love hate relationship.
My opinion on the top 5 things it needs are.

1 - Get rid of the hidden cast time on skills such as trees and netch.
2 - ICE DAMAGE, make it a thing, not for tanking but for DPS (give us our ice mages!)
3 - PET SKINS!! lets have a choice of summons ( this is the same for sorcs to)
4 - Give back that delayed cliff racer so we have some burst potential.
5 - Fetcher is a mess. rework it. (in pvp you've no idea if you're casting the + 50% one or not)

Pallio

Bow nerfs coming to keep even the bow/bow stamden at the bottom.

Izaki

Stam Wardens parse just as much as Stamblades. Warden healers are very widely used in the groups I raid with (and I raid with lots of different groups). Warden tanks are great.

The only problem is Mag Warden....... Which does need A LOT of help.

FrancisCrawford

• The Bird of Prey Minor Berserk buff is useful for all damage roles EXCEPT PvE endgame groups that have reliable Combat Prayer.
• Winter's Revenge is a long-running, ground-based DoT. Skills of that kind are useful ONLY in PvE endgame groups.

From that I conclude that Winter's Revenge should get a massive buff, perhaps one so big it increases wardens' overall DPS by the same 5%+ Minor Berserk provides.

Grandma

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

CR
DK: 20.8%
Sorc: 12.7%
NB: 33.8%
Templar: 23.7%
Warden: 9.3%

AS
DK: 16.2%
Sorc: 16.2%
NB: 38.0%
Templar: 23.4%
Warden: 6.6%

HoF
DK: 17.6%
Sorc: 12.4%
NB: 39.0%
Templar: 22.8%
Warden: 9.0%

MoL
DK: 17.1%
Sorc: 17.1%
NB: 35.9%
Templar: 22.0%
Warden: 7.3%

BRP
DK: 20.8%
Sorc: 12.4%
NB: 34.8%
Templar: 23.0%
Warden: 9.6%

The only use for a warden right now is minor toughness application, which isn't even a critical buff, and which can't be applied by a DPS (forcing them into an off-support role).

seeing these statistics makes me giggle about salty nbs spamming forums with "nbs are gutted" threads. Oh no, your class usage might drop down to 20%, god forbid.

Wildberryjack

They really need to buff Wardens, this is plain sad. The class is a ton of fun to play mechanically but hits like a wet noodle.

MLGProPlayer

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

• The Bird of Prey Minor Berserk buff is useful for all damage roles EXCEPT PvE endgame groups that have reliable Combat Prayer.
• Winter's Revenge is a long-running, ground-based DoT. Skills of that kind are useful ONLY in PvE endgame groups.

From that I conclude that Winter's Revenge should get a massive buff, perhaps one so big it increases wardens' overall DPS by the same 5%+ Minor Berserk provides.

It's something that has been suggested before. WR is useless in PvP and can easily take a flat DPS boost.