Let's talk wardens, still the worst PvE class after 2 years

MLGProPlayer

Endgame PvE usage rate:

HRC: 7.8% (43/551)
AA: 8.5% (51/597)
SO: 10.1% (63/622)
MoL: 7.8% (41/527)
HoF: 8.5% (32/376)
AS: 6.4% (21/330)
CR: 9.4% (32/342)
DSA: 6.0% (14/233)
BRP: 8.9% (16/180)

What the *** does the ZOS balance team do all day if they can't balance a class after 2 *** years?

The class was at 2%... TWO *** PERCENT for 1.5 years until they got minor toughness (a bandaid fix if I've ever seen one). This has helped raise their usage to... 8%...

Seriously ZOS. What the ***? We paid for this class. It's been 2 years and they still aren't useful in any *** role. Magdens are still parsing like 10% behind the other classes while providing zero group utility. The other roles are okay but not competitive with the BiS picks.

I'm going to keep pinging you until we get an answer

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

mcagatayg

low % usage is easily explained by the fact that you need to buy it to play it, people dont wanna change their mains. I play stam warden and its pretty good, healers are great, tanks are great, they just suck at as a mag dd cuz their main damage is supposed to be ICE(?) i guess and that just sucks as a dd tbh

Alienoutlaw

wardens make some of the best tanks and situational healers, agreed not everyone can play them to their full potential but that doesnt mean we need to write them off

Alienoutlaw

mcagatayg wrote: »

low % usage is easily explained by the fact that you need to buy it to play it, people dont wanna change their mains. I play stam warden and its pretty good, healers are great, tanks are great, they just suck at as a mag dd cuz their main damage is supposed to be ICE(?) i guess and that just sucks as a dd tbh

thats half the problem for the low usage % i think also as ice staves pull agro which is not ideal unless your a tank i guess lol

Azyle1

Stamwardens are also pretty strong. Just a little lower than Blade and after this patch.... maybe just as good.

Anhedonie

Warden is suffering not from numbers, but from bad class design and terrible mechanics. Leave that headache for another patch.

likecats

You can't expect a pay to play class, brought in 3 years after launch to have equal representation as free to play classes that existed since launch.

I always wanted to level up a warden character, and I even bought morrowind for it. Even so, never felt like grinding the same levels all over again, leveling mages guild, undaunted, skyshards.

I bet a lot of people do not play warden for these exact reasons, not because of balance.

MLGProPlayer

likecats wrote: »

You can't expect a pay to play class, brought in 3 years after launch to have equal representation as free to play classes that existed since launch.

I always wanted to level up a warden character, and I even bought morrowind for it. Even so, never felt like grinding the same levels all over again, leveling mages guild, undaunted, skyshards.

I bet a lot of people do not play warden for these exact reasons, not because of balance.

This is endgame representation. Everyone here has the warden class and will level whatever will get them the best score.

Here was their representation back when you had to own the Warden class in order to run HoF (they were at 1.5% usage):

I can guarantee that necro (unless they get nerfed into complete oblivion) will launch with 20%+ usage. The warden is underused because it has fundamental design problems that make it undesirable for endgame content.

Runefang

Well they took minor berserk from NBs. Maybe we'll see that AS number increase?

Oh wait Bow/Bow Stamsorcs are now the greatest things ever. Never mind.

MLGProPlayer

Runefang wrote: »

Well they took minor berserk from NBs. Maybe we'll see that AS number increase?

Oh wait Bow/Bow Stamsorcs are now the greatest things ever. Never mind.

Even with minor berserk, magden still parses ~10% behind sorc/templar.

Panomania

Magden is ok dps but to get OK dps you have to find your grove, and the playstyle is nothing like mag builds on other classes. But....magden have very very strong survivability and are pretty decent healers.

Stamden, on the other hand, are very, very strong at every role.

Panomania

Stamden healer is a LOT of fun, is probably the best dps of any heal build out there, and can effectively heal any content.

Runefang

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Well they took minor berserk from NBs. Maybe we'll see that AS number increase?

Oh wait Bow/Bow Stamsorcs are now the greatest things ever. Never mind.

Even with minor berserk, magden still parses ~10% behind sorc/templar.

10% is a bit of a stretch I think? It’s 5% at best.

AlienatedGoat

mcagatayg wrote: »

low % usage is easily explained by the fact that you need to buy it to play it, people dont wanna change their mains. I play stam warden and its pretty good, healers are great, tanks are great, they just suck at as a mag dd cuz their main damage is supposed to be ICE(?) i guess and that just sucks as a dd tbh

Ask around in the vet endgame community, and you'll find that nearly everyone has alts for trials. You're more likely to find people who have alts than people that don't - and Warden is a common choice for an alt, usually for heals or tanking.

So the reason for low Warden representation has *** all do to with people not having Warden alts. The real reason is that Warden DPS sucks the big one, especially magden, and so nobody wants to play Warden DPS.

DPS represent up to 75% of the leaderboards (because there are usually 8-9 DPS in group). When other classes have decent to excellent DPS representation on leaderboards, but Warden has almost none, that skews the numbers heavily.

AlienatedGoat

Anhedonie wrote: »

Warden is suffering not from numbers, but from bad class design and terrible mechanics. Leave that headache for another patch.

What patch? It's been 2 years since Morrowind - I think it's been *** long enough. I'd like to see some good changes to Warden, instead of nerf after nerf after nerf.

Stx

Mag warden dps need a buff in pve only but other than that what about wardens is weak?

Every class has problems. And most classes have a role they suck at.

MartiniDaniels

Magden was king and terror of "group" PVP since that cancer ice snare build was developed by someone. Now with massive nerf of snares, they might receive some buffs to damage to compensate, but I guess devs want to see if they nerfed snares enough.

MLGProPlayer

Stx wrote: »

Mag warden dps need a buff in pve only but other than that what about wardens is weak?

Every class has problems. And most classes have a role they suck at.

DPS is the most important role due to every team needing 8 of them in trials, 2-3 in arenas. Being the worst at this automatically puts a class at a huge disadvantage.

Every class is also the best at something. Warden isn't the best at anything (NBs might be joining them now that their DPS has been nerfed). Their only endgame role right now is off-tank.

Tank: DK
Healer: Templar
DPS: Sorc/Templar

MLGProPlayer

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Magden was king and terror of "group" PVP since that cancer ice snare build was developed by someone. Now with massive nerf of snares, they might receive some buffs to damage to compensate, but I guess devs want to see if they nerfed snares enough.

This thread is about PvE, where warden has been the worst class since day 1.

woe

Warden hasn't been the worst class. It can easily pull numbers that keep it competitive. It's obviously not going to be as high as something like a stamblade but it's not some horrible thing like you're stating.

Kikke

Worste mag class for PvE trials has been DKs since morrowind. And wardens be crying. xD

Maining Sorc myself tho Wish you all luck!

MartiniDaniels

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Magden was king and terror of "group" PVP since that cancer ice snare build was developed by someone. Now with massive nerf of snares, they might receive some buffs to damage to compensate, but I guess devs want to see if they nerfed snares enough.

This thread is about PvE, where warden has been the worst class since day 1.

Yes, but it was impossible to buff it in PVE if class was so OP in PVP. Now with snares nerf things may change and open room for dps buff.

wishlist14

I love both my stam and mag wardens...love the playstyle.

Nazzraeda

Magden's biggest problem isn't lack of damage but lack of group utility. Damage spec of this class provides group with literally nothing apart from it's own damage. Maybe ranged Major Slayer if they use Master Architect, but then even their dps is mediocre. They lack synergy for Alkosh procs (putting one on ice field would've been nice but now it'd be just a copy of Necro's Boneyard) and they lack buffs for group (Minor Toughness is locked behind healing skills which no DD will slot as it's pure dps loss).

Warden healing and tanking specs are in good place. For solo play magden is fine too. But no raid leader who wants serious performance and who optimizes his group will ever let Magden join. They can't provide tank with synergy (Sorcerer spot case), they can't provide group with top tier dps (NB's).

ESO_Nightingale

Nazzraeda wrote: »

Magden's biggest problem isn't lack of damage but lack of group utility. Damage spec of this class provides group with literally nothing apart from it's own damage. Maybe ranged Major Slayer if they use Master Architect, but then even their dps is mediocre. They lack synergy for Alkosh procs (putting one on ice field would've been nice but now it'd be just a copy of Necro's Boneyard) and they lack buffs for group (Minor Toughness is locked behind healing skills which no DD will slot as it's pure dps loss).

Warden healing and tanking specs are in good place. For solo play magden is fine too. But no raid leader who wants serious performance and who optimizes his group will ever let Magden join. They can't provide tank with synergy (Sorcerer spot case), they can't provide group with top tier dps (NB's).

it is damage too. they deal the least. also not to mention that that they have a lack of interesting damage skills. most are raw.

Nazzraeda

The damage gap is not as big as it used to be. Magden can hit big numbers, it doesn't parse 10k below everyone else anymore. Minor buffs is what it needs. And some tweaks here and there so skills can synergize better what would be indirect buff to damage at the same time.

MLGProPlayer

Nazzraeda wrote: »

Magden's biggest problem isn't lack of damage but lack of group utility. Damage spec of this class provides group with literally nothing apart from it's own damage. Maybe ranged Major Slayer if they use Master Architect, but then even their dps is mediocre. They lack synergy for Alkosh procs (putting one on ice field would've been nice but now it'd be just a copy of Necro's Boneyard) and they lack buffs for group (Minor Toughness is locked behind healing skills which no DD will slot as it's pure dps loss).

Warden healing and tanking specs are in good place. For solo play magden is fine too. But no raid leader who wants serious performance and who optimizes his group will ever let Magden join. They can't provide tank with synergy (Sorcerer spot case), they can't provide group with top tier dps (NB's).

Magden has the lowest DPS in the game, along with zero utility.

Their healing is fine, but is generally third in the pecking order (behind templar and sorc).

They have a place as off-tanks as that's the only role you can hide them in (you still need them to provide minor toughness and they are decent here).

There isn't one single thing they excel at in PvE, which makes them easily replaceable with superior classes.

Schared

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

You can't expect a pay to play class, brought in 3 years after launch to have equal representation as free to play classes that existed since launch.

I always wanted to level up a warden character, and I even bought morrowind for it. Even so, never felt like grinding the same levels all over again, leveling mages guild, undaunted, skyshards.

I bet a lot of people do not play warden for these exact reasons, not because of balance.

This is endgame representation. Everyone here has the warden class and will level whatever will get them the best score.

Here was their representation back when you had to own the Warden class in order to run HoF (they were at 1.5% usage):

I can guarantee that necro (unless they get nerfed into complete oblivion) will launch with 20%+ usage. The warden is underused because it has fundamental design problems that make it undesirable for endgame content.

Quite an redundant argument for warden that seems more to go against nightblades - because they dominate in terms of endgame usage. Some Dk-tanks, templar/warden/sorc-healers sneak in there aswell but if you would similar numbers for everything else i guarantee wardens underuse will not seem crazy compared to the other non-nb classes.

MLGProPlayer

Schared wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

You can't expect a pay to play class, brought in 3 years after launch to have equal representation as free to play classes that existed since launch.

I always wanted to level up a warden character, and I even bought morrowind for it. Even so, never felt like grinding the same levels all over again, leveling mages guild, undaunted, skyshards.

I bet a lot of people do not play warden for these exact reasons, not because of balance.

This is endgame representation. Everyone here has the warden class and will level whatever will get them the best score.

Here was their representation back when you had to own the Warden class in order to run HoF (they were at 1.5% usage):

I can guarantee that necro (unless they get nerfed into complete oblivion) will launch with 20%+ usage. The warden is underused because it has fundamental design problems that make it undesirable for endgame content.

Quite an redundant argument for warden that seems more to go against nightblades - because they dominate in terms of endgame usage. Some Dk-tanks, templar/warden/sorc-healers sneak in there aswell but if you would similar numbers for everything else i guarantee wardens underuse will not seem crazy compared to the other non-nb classes.

No class has single digit usage. The only one that comes close in some content is sorc (which is about to change drastically following the NB nerfs).

CR
DK: 20.8%
Sorc: 12.7%
NB: 33.8%
Templar: 23.7%
Warden: 9.3%

AS
DK: 16.2%
Sorc: 16.2%
NB: 38.0%
Templar: 23.4%
Warden: 6.6%

HoF
DK: 17.6%
Sorc: 12.4%
NB: 39.0%
Templar: 22.8%
Warden: 9.0%

MoL
DK: 17.1%
Sorc: 17.1%
NB: 35.9%
Templar: 22.0%
Warden: 7.3%

BRP
DK: 20.8%
Sorc: 12.4%
NB: 34.8%
Templar: 23.0%
Warden: 9.6%

The only use for a warden right now is minor toughness application, which isn't even a critical buff, and which can't be applied by a DPS (forcing them into an off-support role).

Juhasow

Defining which class is worst in PvE based on leaderboards is kinda silly.

MLGProPlayer

Juhasow wrote: »

Defining which class is worst in PvE based on leaderboards is kinda silly.

It's the most objective way to do it as this is the highest level of play.