QOL - improvement for Mag Blades: Class shield

Fiktius

Greetings everyone!

I bet many of you have a memory of Murkmire balance changes and how those changes affected different classes, especially magicka based classes.
I'm aware that shield changes and how they functions did impact several classes a lot, but it's a fact that these very same issues did impact Mag Blades heavily as well, making gameplay in PvP combat much more tricky. In this thread I'll be talking from solo mag NB player's perspective and explain why I think why ability re-design could turn out to be giant quality of life improvement, regarding mag blades.

What kind of change I'm asking for then?

Re-designing a Nightblade skill to function as actual damage shield.

Why I think that way?

Let's take a look at Magicka Nightblades class skills. Can you spot actual damage shield? Me neither.
A class shield does not exist for Nightblades and this previously was not an issue, before Murkmire patch did land on live servers, leaving Mag blade more vulnerable place than they used to be before. For those who prefer to fight visible, they have only two kind of shields available: Annulment (and its morphs) and Steadfast Ward (and its morphs).

Why is that problematic?

As many players are aware, Nightblades do have a cloack, which you can not always rely against competitive enemies with counters.
Once you're thrown out of your cloack with detection pots/AOE skills and you're starting to get heavy pressure, there are a few things which you can do:
Continue teleporting with shade occassionally or try to activate LA shield/healing ward and depending of your build and your resistances, those shields lasts often quite short time before they are gone.
How many of you still remember what happened to healing ward at Murkmire patch? Yes, right, first burst heal was completely removed and now what you can do as a mag blade is activating healing ward and cloacking away, trying to force the final heal. However that's problematic by two reasons:
When you do so and activate cloack for trying to protect your precious shield, you give a great opportunity for your enemy to recover and gain some HP. But why to stop there?
Why to let slippery Nightblade vanish with cloack, when detection pots/Aoes exists?
At that point Magblade find themselves often trying layer shields and protect healing ward with LA shield. That may not end well, if NB can't find a way to turn tables around.
ALSO there are always those moments when an ally is near and sometimes you won't get the healing ward for yourself at first place.
This kind of situation you can try to counter by slotting "Ward Ally" morph instead, guaranteeing a shield for you when you activate the skill and get shield for yourself & possible ally and then keep filling your HP bar by another healing skills. But then again this is exactly what we have to do anyways with healing ward too, when being outside of cloack.
What's the point, when against competitive opponent those cute little shields will be wiped off quickly?

Why class shield would be quality of life improvement?

If mag blades could get actual damage shield from their class skill line, we could slot reliable damage shield and magicka nightblades could finally get out of pigeonhole which is almost forcing us to use healing ward at most common PvP builds. We could get more build variety as a result, when class shield could replace healing ward and restoration staves could be thrown out of window.

Why do I suggest this now?

Since developers already mentioned at "Update 22 Combat Direction" - thread that they're looking into classes tool kits and perhaps reworking skills, which are providing similar effects.
They may have some visions already how to do changes, but if there is any room for further possible adjustments, it would be amazing if some improvements could be considered.
And that's exact reason why I'm posting this thread right now. Getting class shield for mag Blades would be significant QOL - improvement for these underdogs of PvP.

idk

The idea is not needed for extremely obvious reasons. Everyone has access to a shield via the light armor skill line and only one class has a shield that scales off max magicka. If you want to play a NB with a magicka shield wear LA.

The other big issue is we do not need to start making all classes the same which is exactly what this idea is. OP wants to make the NB more like a Sorc.

Fiktius

idk wrote: »

The idea is not needed for extremely obvious reasons. Everyone has access to a shield via the light armor skill line and only one class has a shield that scales off max magicka. If you want to play a NB with a magicka shield wear LA.

The other big issue is we do not need to start making all classes the same which is exactly what this idea is. OP wants to make the NB more like a Sorc.

Like I already mentioned at the post above, there is a problematic situation what comes with the current shield availability.
The balance changes over years and so does skills as well. Not everything works as they used to be (more details already written above) and sometimes comes the point when class skills should be re-considered.

I do agree that classes should have their class identity, but if you think that giving one own class shield makes Nightblade too much Sorc a like, fair enough. We are both free to agree to disagree here.

ATomiX96

"CAN WE HAVE CLOAK THEN?" ~every sorc on this damned forum

arkansas_ESO

It doesn't need a class shield as magblade was designed with other forms of survival in mind (such as the always-mentioned Cloak, as well as Mirage, various HOTs, and good off-stat sustain.) The issue is that the HOTs and sustain have been nerfed repeatedly in the interest of PVE balance (which I understand, but the issue is still there) and, since the Healing Ward nerf, magblade has no access to a burst heal. Sorcs survived the shield changes because it had Matriarch to replace Healing Ward, magblade didn't/still does not have anything of value to replace it (as Dark Cloak both isn't a burst heal, nor does it scale favorably with the stats you're trying to build for in LA, as well as requiring you to not take the invisibility morph.)

TL;DR: Revert the Healing Ward nerf or give magblade some form of a burst heal and all will be good in the world.

wheem_ESO

Generally speaking, in order to survive in PvP you either need to have good mobility, or be tanky + have good self healing...or you can be a Stamina build in heavy armor and have all of the above .

All non-Sorcerer Magicka classes have very limited self-mobility: DK gets Wings, Templar gets a great cleanse + AOE snare, Nightblades get the Shade, Wardens get nothing (notice that I said "self-mobility" above, since the "Spiderman Heal/Pull" can be downright amazing *IF* your teammates position properly), and everyone gets the option of going Mist Form + having the Vampirism drawbacks full-time. Problem is, none of these measures are actually reliable ways to escape from competent players on a Magicka Sorcerer or any Stamina build. Shade + Cloak can work sometimes, of course, but you only get 1 real shot at it. And if they pay attention to where your shade was, Caltrops and a Gap Closer will ruin your day.

I don't really think a class-shield is the way to rectify the issue for Magblades, though. First off, I think the drawbacks for Vampire need to get toned down - with the current power of Dawnbreaker, I certainly don't think it should be getting any damage bonuses against Vampires. I'd also like to see some changes to Mist Form itself; perhaps reduce the mitigation bonus, but allow healing to work while Mist Formed, even if it was somewhat reduced.

Beyond that, I'd like to see Magicka get some sort of self healing that doesn't hog all your global cooldowns. There's simply nothing for Magicka that can really compare to combo'ing Vigor or Rally with some dodge rolls. Having a shield will often just mean that you're locked into spamming it - and almost nothing else - either until you die, your resources run out, or someone else comes along to save you. It's often difficult, if not impossible, for a Magicka build to switch from defense back to offense.

magblade88

I main a magblade and hate using shields. If I wanted to spam shields I would just play a sorc.
I think a class skill that removes snare would be a better quality of life change at this point. Getting our minor vitality back would be nice too.
These pve changes are killing the class in pvp. They really need to implement some other type of server rule set like battle spirit. When in cyrodiil skills/abilities may have some variation from the pve server.
This would make class balancing so much easier. Come on Zos.

idk

Fiktius wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The idea is not needed for extremely obvious reasons. Everyone has access to a shield via the light armor skill line and only one class has a shield that scales off max magicka. If you want to play a NB with a magicka shield wear LA.

The other big issue is we do not need to start making all classes the same which is exactly what this idea is. OP wants to make the NB more like a Sorc.

Like I already mentioned at the post above, there is a problematic situation what comes with the current shield availability.
The balance changes over years and so does skills as well. Not everything works as they used to be (more details already written above) and sometimes comes the point when class skills should be re-considered.

I do agree that classes should have their class identity, but if you think that giving one own class shield makes Nightblade too much Sorc a like, fair enough. We are both free to agree to disagree here.

There is not a problem. The NB performs fine with the defenses they have.

The mere fact that templars, wardens and dks do not have a class shield that is magicka based and people do fine on them, just like they do fine with a NB as it is demonstrates clearly there is not a problem in this area. That is both in PvP and PvE.

So if you are having problems playing your NB because you do not have a class based shield then I suggest you play the sorc and no other class. It does not seem many agree with your proposal so I guess most of us will agree to disagree with you.

brandonv516

Speaking for no-CP, Harness/Dampen is a complete waste. To take advantage of it you need to build very defensively - which means you are going to hit like a wet noodle.

Sorcs can build this way though and still put out some serious damage.

We can't do what Sorcs do and providing us a class shield to stack with Harness/Dampen would just strain our resources until the inevitable happens (death).

I get that each of the other classes have unique shields, but we have Cloak!

It's not perfect, it's hated/envied, but it's our class identifier. That's the playstyle and I for one hope it doesn't change (too much).

Kidgangster101

idk wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The idea is not needed for extremely obvious reasons. Everyone has access to a shield via the light armor skill line and only one class has a shield that scales off max magicka. If you want to play a NB with a magicka shield wear LA.

The other big issue is we do not need to start making all classes the same which is exactly what this idea is. OP wants to make the NB more like a Sorc.

Like I already mentioned at the post above, there is a problematic situation what comes with the current shield availability.
The balance changes over years and so does skills as well. Not everything works as they used to be (more details already written above) and sometimes comes the point when class skills should be re-considered.

I do agree that classes should have their class identity, but if you think that giving one own class shield makes Nightblade too much Sorc a like, fair enough. We are both free to agree to disagree here.

There is not a problem. The NB performs fine with the defenses they have.

The mere fact that templars, wardens and dks do not have a class shield that is magicka based and people do fine on them, just like they do fine with a NB as it is demonstrates clearly there is not a problem in this area. That is both in PvP and PvE.

So if you are having problems playing your NB because you do not have a class based shield then I suggest you play the sorc and no other class. It does not seem many agree with your proposal so I guess most of us will agree to disagree with you.

Lol have you tried mag NB lately? You do realize that they can't kill anything right? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

The mag NB needs more help honestly than a shield they lack good pressure damage if their gank fails (they hit no where as hard as Stam NB) and their only defense tool is cloak and shade (which is very buggy) so they need a lot of help imo. And also there is a huge difference between CP and non CP as well. (Too much balancing because moves will never be fully balanced in both versions)

The downside is whatever you give mag NB Stam NB can use and they are already very strong.

thankyourat

I can see where you are coming from because I build my magblade more like a sorc and I use sets like armor master and fortified brass. I'm also not completely against magblades getting a second class shields because honestly the class needs a huge survivability buff. I would however like to see them buff survivability in other ways instead of a class shield.

If you look at what magblades lack defensively you will notice two major problems. The first being no way to get out of execute range while being heavily pressured. Before healing ward covered this weakness because you were able to cast one or two healing ward and you would get out of execute range. Now you don't really have any viable healing options. Even the vitality was removed from strife. A good fix to this would be to double the healing you receive from swallow soul, and increase the healing from refreshing path.

The next is magblades weakness to snares and roots. You can do very little to reposition when outnumbered and you are caught by root spammers. While also not having the defenses or healing to even try to tank it out. Fix to this would be add snare and root immunity to blur. This would allow magblades to break snares so their mobility tools can actually function properly. As it stands right now magblades aren't very mobile while also having bad healing. this combination of weakness are pretty much game breaking in the current state of PvP.

LordTareq

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The idea is not needed for extremely obvious reasons. Everyone has access to a shield via the light armor skill line and only one class has a shield that scales off max magicka. If you want to play a NB with a magicka shield wear LA.

The other big issue is we do not need to start making all classes the same which is exactly what this idea is. OP wants to make the NB more like a Sorc.

Like I already mentioned at the post above, there is a problematic situation what comes with the current shield availability.
The balance changes over years and so does skills as well. Not everything works as they used to be (more details already written above) and sometimes comes the point when class skills should be re-considered.

I do agree that classes should have their class identity, but if you think that giving one own class shield makes Nightblade too much Sorc a like, fair enough. We are both free to agree to disagree here.

There is not a problem. The NB performs fine with the defenses they have.

The mere fact that templars, wardens and dks do not have a class shield that is magicka based and people do fine on them, just like they do fine with a NB as it is demonstrates clearly there is not a problem in this area. That is both in PvP and PvE.

So if you are having problems playing your NB because you do not have a class based shield then I suggest you play the sorc and no other class. It does not seem many agree with your proposal so I guess most of us will agree to disagree with you.

Lol have you tried mag NB lately? You do realize that they can't kill anything right? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂.

That’s a bit of an exaggeration, I can kill plenty on my magblade including in one vs one situations vs clearly competent PvPers. I suppose it greatly depends on the specific build. I feel like I’ve found a way to make magblade work but your mileage may vary.

That said, I do feel magblade is in a bad spot, single mistake and you are out basically. I’m fine with high risk/high reward, but for magblade its high risk/mediocre reward currently. Definitely think that magblade’s defense should get another pass, be it class shield or preferably some sort of magicka selfheal.

magblade88

thankyourat wrote: »

I can see where you are coming from because I build my magblade more like a sorc and I use sets like armor master and fortified brass. I'm also not completely against magblades getting a second class shields because honestly the class needs a huge survivability buff. I would however like to see them buff survivability in other ways instead of a class shield.

If you look at what magblades lack defensively you will notice two major problems. The first being no way to get out of execute range while being heavily pressured. Before healing ward covered this weakness because you were able to cast one or two healing ward and you would get out of execute range. Now you don't really have any viable healing options. Even the vitality was removed from strife. A good fix to this would be to double the healing you receive from swallow soul, and increase the healing from refreshing path.

The next is magblades weakness to snares and roots. You can do very little to reposition when outnumbered and you are caught by root spammers. While also not having the defenses or healing to even try to tank it out. Fix to this would be add snare and root immunity to blur. This would allow magblades to break snares so their mobility tools can actually function properly. As it stands right now magblades aren't very mobile while also having bad healing. this combination of weakness are pretty much game breaking in the current state of PvP.

I agree with everything but the mobility bit.
Between vamp, concealed wep, blur, cripple, path, psijic skill, and steed mundus there is a bunch of ways to increase mobility. Even when snaired I still end up getting away more times then not. Except maybe when getting locked down by a Dk.

Hope the change to wings gives us a bit of love even though I think they should of just made 1 or 2 of magblade skills non reflective.

Fiktius

I do personally have a suitable build which I made for myself and I've been playing with quite successfully and since mag blade is my main, I've been spending a lot time with doing different kind of PvP. However even if I won't personally struggle, that doesn't mean that there wouldn't be any lack in the class which deserves second look from developers.
Same could be said about every single class. At proper hands classes can pull out wonders.

I also am aware that the class did suffer from several amount of different kind of nerfs and overall mag blades were not left at good place in this current PvP meta. As an example which was mentioned in this thread several time was burst heal removal from healing ward and I do agree that adjusting healing ward and adding burst heal back to it would improve the situation slightly. However it would not make that fact different that healing ward is not always reliable (due the fact that you may not get it for yourself at crucial moment when you need it) and it does not remove the fact that relying on healing ward is still pigeonholing most mag blades on restoration staff usage. Some are completely fine with that and they have full rights to have that opinion, that's alright.

Also I do also agree with those comments which states that some sort of snare removal (outside of slotting 2H forward momentum) would definitely improve how mag blade would perform in PvP, but that's topic for another thread.
Adding class shield is just one approach which could improve mag Blades current situation in PvP and that's why I created this thread at first place: I wanted to have a discussion about the case and that's why this thread exists.
Nobody is forced to agree with me, but having a discussion and hearing different kind of ideas is more than welcome.

Insco851

For magblade to have good enough heals you have to spec into extra health and run dark cloak with rapid+major vitality from BRR. (Or troll king and have similar issues with damage)

Add in the steed Mundas or 2 swift - and your already lulz sustained dmg is even lower.

Or you can forego all that and just try to cloak away and play the reset/gank game. (And this is where people start thinking MNB is some super strong class... niche builds that are forced into cloak/run)

WTB survivability buff plz

idk

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Fiktius wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The idea is not needed for extremely obvious reasons. Everyone has access to a shield via the light armor skill line and only one class has a shield that scales off max magicka. If you want to play a NB with a magicka shield wear LA.

The other big issue is we do not need to start making all classes the same which is exactly what this idea is. OP wants to make the NB more like a Sorc.

Like I already mentioned at the post above, there is a problematic situation what comes with the current shield availability.
The balance changes over years and so does skills as well. Not everything works as they used to be (more details already written above) and sometimes comes the point when class skills should be re-considered.

I do agree that classes should have their class identity, but if you think that giving one own class shield makes Nightblade too much Sorc a like, fair enough. We are both free to agree to disagree here.

There is not a problem. The NB performs fine with the defenses they have.

The mere fact that templars, wardens and dks do not have a class shield that is magicka based and people do fine on them, just like they do fine with a NB as it is demonstrates clearly there is not a problem in this area. That is both in PvP and PvE.

So if you are having problems playing your NB because you do not have a class based shield then I suggest you play the sorc and no other class. It does not seem many agree with your proposal so I guess most of us will agree to disagree with you.

Lol have you tried mag NB lately? You do realize that they can't kill anything right? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

The mag NB needs more help honestly than a shield they lack good pressure damage if their gank fails (they hit no where as hard as Stam NB) and their only defense tool is cloak and shade (which is very buggy) so they need a lot of help imo. And also there is a huge difference between CP and non CP as well. (Too much balancing because moves will never be fully balanced in both versions)

The downside is whatever you give mag NB Stam NB can use and they are already very strong.

You have provided what is probably the worst justification for such a change. You are essentially suggesting every class has a magicka based shield of their own.

You are suggesting that anytime there are problems with one class we just make it a little more like another class.

You are suggesting homogenization which is bad and boring.

Sorry you are having problems with your NB but if you are having survivability issues on our NB I suggest you learn to play it or try a sorc.

KhajiitFelix

ATomiX96 wrote: »

"CAN WE HAVE CLOAK THEN?" ~every sorc on this damned forum

Found another salty nightblade.

Lucky28

No, Magblade doesn't need a class shield. Healing ward needs it's upfront heal back, Swallow soul needs to be un-nerfed getting minor vit back and refreshing path needs it's damage back. Magblade was designed to survive in ways other than shield stack if i wanted that kind of gameplay i'd just play a sorc.

twing1_

To everyone that is comparing NB (if they receive a class shield) to sorc: Every class has a damage shield of some kind (though most others scale off of health) except for NB. So giving NB access to a class damage shield would not necessarily be cutting into sorc's class identity at all.

For some reason, everyone is assuming that the NB shield would scale off of magicka. Nowhere in the original post does it even allude to this. If the shield scaled off of health (like most other class shields do), sorcs would remain as the only class with a magicka based shield and retain their class identity.

The homogeonization of classes is a fair point. But as it currently stands, that homogeonization (in regards to class shields) already exists, excluding the NB. Giving NB a shield would only bring NB up to speed in this regard, and wouldn't be the end of class differences.

And, tbh, homogeonization to some degree is required for balance. Take a hypothetical extreme for an example: imagine if one class had only buffs and no damaging skills, and another had only damaging skills and no buffs. Are the classes different? Yes. Are they balanced? No. Now I'm not saying that every class has to have an equal and opposite skill to every other class, but I am suggesting that all the classes be held to a certain standard. I feel fair benchmarks to have for every class are access to major brutality/sorcery, major prophecy/savagery, major ward/resolve, a self heal, a damage shield, and a class exclusive function that cannot be obtained elsewhere (like cloak, streak, etc.). The ways in which the different classes obtain these buffs/functions would be what make them unique (ex/ GDB vs BoL). I'm aware that not all of these benchmarks are currently being hit by other classes (Temps not getting major brutality/sorcery, for example) but I would label these as problem areas also. NB getting a shield would be a step in the right direction.

The argument of "NB doesn't need a shield because they have cloak" is the equivalent of saying "DK doesn't need a shield because they have wings" or "temp doesn't need a shield because they have BoL", yet both of these other examples do in fact have a shield. And this argument is debunked by those cases.

And as the OP has stated, now is the perfect time for NB to get a shield. ZOS is doing a class rebalance, according to Update 22 Combat Direction. They will be reworking class skills to both balance functionality between class skills and also reduce redundancy of function between abilities as well (surprise attack and mark target both applying major fracture was used as an example problem area). This opens the door to potential skill reworks, specifically for skills that are both providing redundant buffs/debuffs and also falling behind others in terms of functionality.

To me, Path of Darkness seems like an obvious top candidate for a rework. NB has 3 instances of major expedition (double take, cripple, and of course path). Furthermore, path of darkness is a very counterproductive mobility skill: it boosts the player's speed, but with the caveat of limiting that bonus to a relatively small area of effect. In order to gain the mobility bonus, players must limit their mobility to a small area of movement. It's hypocritical. And more than that, it's redundant because two other class skills already provide major expedition (a problem area, according to ZOS).

This to me seems like the number one ability in the NB toolkit to put a damage shield on. It could keep it's identity as a mobility tool with the right changes, too. I would propose it become a self-centered (not AoE) buff that provides a damage shield (scaling off of health, to preserve sorc's exclusive mag shield) and also minor (not major) expedition for the duration. The morphs would retain their current effects, also. Putting the shield on this skill (in the shadow skill tree) too would only reinforce the shadow tree as the defensive one. The rework would look something like this:

Aura of Darkness
-Grants a damage shield that absorbs [x] damage over 6 seconds. Grants minor expedition for the duration.

Twisted Aura
-Grants a damage shield that absorbs [x] damage over 6 seconds. Grants minor expedition for the duration.
-When the shield takes damage, deal [y] magic damage to nearby enemies. This can occur once every second.

Refreshing Aura
-Grants a damage shield that absorbs [x] damage over 6 seconds. Grants minor expedition for the duration.
-When the shield takes damage, heal yourself and nearby allies for [y]. This can occur once every second.

LordTareq

Agreed. And path really needs a complete overhaul. Also would be nice to work some anti-snare tools in there. Perhaps the twisting morph could provide x seconds of snare immunity when the shield breaks rather than damage. 2 birds with 1 stone. Magicka scaling is sort of required to make this a magblade buff though, if its health based stamblades will use it.

twing1_

LordTareq wrote: »

Agreed. And path really needs a complete overhaul. Also would be nice to work some anti-snare tools in there. Perhaps the twisting morph could provide x seconds of snare immunity when the shield breaks rather than damage. 2 birds with 1 stone. Magicka scaling is sort of required to make this a magblade buff though, if its health based stamblades will use it.

I think double take is a prime candidate for snare removal. Cripple already grants major expedition (and ZOS isn't keen on redundancy) so it won't be missed. The major expedition it currently grants (4 seconds upon cast) is already perfectly in line with other snare removal and immunity tools too.

A few days ago I did a complete overhaul of NB skills in accordance to ZOS's Update 22 Combat Direction, found here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/467042/update-22-combat-direction-nb-changes#latest

Check it out if this sort of thing interests you.

Minalan

Snare removal, please. Thanks...

Joy_Division

@twing1_

The thing is, templars dont need Sun Shield (their class shield) bc/ they have BoL

And if they didn't have BoL, they'd need something bc/ health based shields aren't very good for non-tanks. And Sun Shield isn't very good or versatile even then

wheem_ESO

twing1_ wrote: »

To everyone that is comparing NB (if they receive a class shield) to sorc: Every class has a damage shield of some kind (though most others scale off of health) except for NB. So giving NB access to a class damage shield would not necessarily be cutting into sorc's class identity at all.

The non-Sorcerer class-based "shields" certainly aren't shields in the traditional sense of the word.

For Wardens, I assume you're referring to Shimmering Shield? That's more comparable to Wings than it is a "shield," since it only works on projectiles. I almost never use it myself, since the vast majority of the time that I'm actually in danger of dying - other than when being zerged - it's due to melee Stam damage, not ranged Magicka. But if you are going against Magicka heavy teams (or duels), it's very much overpowered.

For DK's, their shield is largely there for the Major Mending buff - the amount absorbed and the cost involved means that it's no where near worth it for the role of a "traditional" shield. When used for a quick burst heal, though, it's pretty strong.

For Templars, the Sun Shield is mostly just an annoying ability that's run only by trolly tank builds. For the vast majority of players, it just isn't worth using.

Rather than saying that Magicka Nightblades need a "shield" of some sort, I'd genericize that a bit more and say that they need more survivability and/or mobility - and that the same is true for all other non-Sorcerer Magicka classes. Without Mist Form (which has excessive drawbacks associated, IMO) or Streak, most Magicka builds have grossly insufficient self-mobility.

And that's one thing that has annoyed me for several years - stamina builds can escape me at will, as long as they don't try to wait until the very last second to run away, but the reverse isn't true. At least they don't all have 100% uptime on Major Expedition anymore, I guess; at least now I can throw a couple cliff racers as a rude gesture while they escape (assuming they don't both get dodged by the same roll, that is).

twing1_ wrote: »

And, tbh, homogeonization to some degree is required for balance. Take a hypothetical extreme for an example: imagine if one class had only buffs and no damaging skills, and another had only damaging skills and no buffs. Are the classes different? Yes. Are they balanced? No. Now I'm not saying that every class has to have an equal and opposite skill to every other class, but I am suggesting that all the classes be held to a certain standard. I feel fair benchmarks to have for every class are access to major brutality/sorcery, major prophecy/savagery, major ward/resolve, a self heal, a damage shield, and a class exclusive function that cannot be obtained elsewhere (like cloak, streak, etc.). The ways in which the different classes obtain these buffs/functions would be what make them unique (ex/ GDB vs BoL). I'm aware that not all of these benchmarks are currently being hit by other classes (Temps not getting major brutality/sorcery, for example) but I would label these as problem areas also. NB getting a shield would be a step in the right direction.

I don't necessarily disagree overall, but I think it's fine if some of these buffs come from "generic" sources, as long as those sources are useful and somewhat balanced.

For instance, Entropy from the Mage's Guild is a terrible skill, and is only used out of necessity. For someone that doesn't have class-based access to Major Sorcery, it's your only option that doesn't require a 5 piece item set or use of relatively expensive consumables...but the skill itself is trash. The damage and healing are both extremely weak, while the +5% hp being only on one bar can cause problems, and the Major Sorcery buff is only 20 seconds long.

Meanwhile, the options for Major Brutality that Stamina gets are far superior. The 2h skill line provides more than a 50% increase in the buff's duration, as well as the option of either snare/root immunity or a large self heal. For the dual wield line, you get a ranged spammable that hits as hard as most Magicka spammables that I see, while also providing a 50% snare for 6 seconds.

Those generic stamina abilities both have very good value outside of the Major Brutality buff, while Entropy absolutely does not (and the +2% Max Magicka and Magicka Regen from a passive certainly don't bring it up to par).

ccmedaddy

I agree with Joy. I don't see how adding a health based shield will help with the predicament magNBs are in right now. I guess it'll be cool for NB tanks and some niche heavy armor builds but for most light armor builds it'll be useless.

I don't need ZOS to reinvent the wheel. MagNB was very fun and rewarding to play before all the dumb Mukrmire nerfs that accomplished literally nothing, so I'd much rather ZOS revert those changes and make snare immunity/removal accessible to all magicka toons.

twing1_

wheem_ESO wrote: »

The non-Sorcerer class-based "shields" certainly aren't shields in the traditional sense of the word.

...

For DK's, their shield is largely there for the Major Mending buff - the amount absorbed and the cost involved means that it's no where near worth it for the role of a "traditional" shield. When used for a quick burst heal, though, it's pretty strong.

...

Rather than saying that Magicka Nightblades need a "shield" of some sort, I'd genericize that a bit more and say that they need more survivability and/or mobility - and that the same is true for all other non-Sorcerer Magicka classes. Without Mist Form (which has excessive drawbacks associated, IMO) or Streak, most Magicka builds have grossly insufficient self-mobility.

Granted, most class shields are not nearly as strong as the sorcerer shield, and they are mainly used for their secondary effects. I'm asking for the NB shield to be no different.

As DKs use their shield for the major mending, an NB (with the proposed changes) would use the shield primarily for the minor expedition and passive healing/damage.

The combination of a miniscule damage shield and the minor expedition buff on aura of darkness would contribute toward both the mobility and survivability you are suggesting that magicka characters need. Again, the minor expedition and passive healing/damage would be the main course and the actual damage shield part of the skill would just be the little extra cherry on top for a little bit more survivability, as is the case with the DK shield and major mending.

I'm sure that by "mobility", though, you weren't referring to minor expedition and instead were referring to snare removal/immunity. If it were up to me, I would also replace the 4 seconds of major expedition found on the double take morph of blur with snare removal and 4 seconds of snare immunity.

Perhaps you are right that my proposed change to path of darkness isn't enough on its own, but I definitely feel it would be a step in the right direction. Especially considering how path of darkness is in desperate need of a rework to begin with.

twing1_

Joy_Division wrote: »

@twing1_

The thing is, templars dont need Sun Shield (their class shield) bc/ they have BoL

And if they didn't have BoL, they'd need something bc/ health based shields aren't very good for non-tanks. And Sun Shield isn't very good or versatile even then

Okay, sure. Templar don't need their shield because they have BoL. But they still have one.

You can make the argument that NB don't need a shield either, because they have cloak. But if it turns out that this isn't the case (often, because cloak is such an all-or-nothing tactic and also so easily counterable), the difference is they don't even have access to one, whereas literally every other class does (in some form or another).

I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. And unfortunately, NB right now have the latter while all other classes have the former.

I just don't see how it could hurt adding one to the NB arsenal, especially in place of path of darkness when it is so terribly in need of a rework because of both how contradictory it is (by restricting major expedition to such a small area) and also how redundant it is (with both cripple and double take providing major expedition without the aforementioned area restriction).

idk

twing1_ wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@twing1_

The thing is, templars dont need Sun Shield (their class shield) bc/ they have BoL

And if they didn't have BoL, they'd need something bc/ health based shields aren't very good for non-tanks. And Sun Shield isn't very good or versatile even then

Okay, sure. Templar don't need their shield because they have BoL. But they still have one.

You can make the argument that NB don't need a shield either, because they have cloak. But if it turns out that this isn't the case (often, because cloak is such an all-or-nothing tactic and also so easily counterable), the difference is they don't even have access to one, whereas literally every other class does (in some form or another).

I just don't see how it could hurt adding one to the NB arsenal, especially in place of path of darkness when it is so terribly in need of a rework because of both how contradictory it is (by restricting major expedition to such a small area) and also how redundant it is (with both cripple and double take providing major expedition without the aforementioned area restriction).

I think you really need to read what Joy stated again.

Templars have a health based shield which sucks for anything but tanks. Joy specifically says that.

It is not useful for most damage or healing builds so your argument that "they still have one" is very weak.

As to your question about how could it hurt adding one to the NB arsenal, the answer is it is homogenization. Each class has their own survival skill set (as Joy alluded to with Templars having BoL) and it becomes boring homogenization if we start making them the same.

What is being said in this thread is some are having problems playing a NB so we want a skill like the Sorc has. Those should go play a Sorc instead of making the NB more like one. Argue all you want, but that is exactly what this thread is about.

twing1_

idk wrote: »

What is being said in this thread is some are having problems playing a NB so we want a skill like the Sorc has. Those should go play a Sorc instead of making the NB more like one. Argue all you want, but that is exactly what this thread is about.

Nowhere in the original post does it say anything about the shield being magicka scaling like the sorc shield. That is being grossly assumed by the nay sayers in the comments.

And no, I don't believe that nb deserve a magicka scaling shield like the sorc have. That would make them far too strong.

That being said, I do believe they deserve a health scaling shield, for nb tanks if nothing else (who are drastically falling behind tanks of other classes). A damage shield that passively heals would complement nicely the "sap tank" theme most nb tanks are built around.

But as I mentioned in an earlier comment, the nb shield could also be used by magicka dd in the same way the dk shield is: to reap the benefit of the secondary effects, while also slightly increasing their survivability. Where dk cast their shield for major mending, nb would cast their shield for minor evasion and passive healing/damage.

What I am picturing is that nb would primarily cast this ability directly before cloaking to get away, as a kind of buffer just in case their cloak gets broken so they aren't caught (literally) dead in the water.

And yes, homogeonization. I addressed this point too in one of my earlier comments. It is a valid concern, but right now all other classes are already homogenized into having a class shield and NB stand as the odd man out. If homogeneity is the issue, campaigns against all damage shields except sorc's should be made. Because at this point, it's just nb exclusion.

Meanwhile, nbs also have a skill in their toolkit that is going largely unused because they can gain the benefit it provides from two other class skills without the attached drawback. Path is in need of a rework, and a shield seems like it could be a logical solution.

Fiktius

idk wrote: »

What is being said in this thread is some are having problems playing a NB so we want a skill like the Sorc has. Those should go play a Sorc instead of making the NB more like one. Argue all you want, but that is exactly what this thread is about.

That's what you assume and nothing what I really said at first place. Those are things which you want to believe, but I guess it wouldn't change your mind even if I would say we are not trying to suggest here that developers should go and copy paste Sorcerer shield for Nightblades and call the job done.

What I asked here was mostly replacement shield, which could release mag NBs from pigeonhole of relying on restoration staff and opening build variety by implementing a class shield, which would function much more proper way.

And what is this "proper way"?

1) We get it to ourselves every time, 100 % guaranteed.
2) Enable an access to slot anything else than restoration staff for backbar, if wanting to use additional defensive shield.
(Combined with - very likely already slotted - LA shield)

And how this defensive shield could function? Now that's important topic to discuss.
What I would expect is that the damage shield would have unique function, separating the shield out of other classes shields, yet still keeping the unique feel which the class still have. This could be done many different ways, yet the class identity would remain.
I also really much like @twing1_ idea of giving a shield, which would return health when the shield is being damaged.
Now that would be something which I would consider worth to slot, depending how developers would make the shield actually function.

And now that's important to remember:
We can throw suggestions from doors and windows, but at the end it will be developers who will make the final design/decision.
It's too early to freak out, when we are only on discussion stage.

Steelshiv

Nightblade should get shield and Sorc should get cloak