Joy_Division wrote: »@twing1_
The thing is, templars dont need Sun Shield (their class shield) bc/ they have BoL
And if they didn't have BoL, they'd need something bc/ health based shields aren't very good for non-tanks. And Sun Shield isn't very good or versatile even then
Okay, sure. Templar don't need their shield because they have BoL. But they still have one.
You can make the argument that NB don't need a shield either, because they have cloak. But if it turns out that this isn't the case (often, because cloak is such an all-or-nothing tactic and also so easily counterable), the difference is they don't even have access to one, whereas literally every other class does (in some form or another).
I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. And unfortunately, NB right now have the latter while all other classes have the former.
I just don't see how it could hurt adding one to the NB arsenal, especially in place of path of darkness when it is so terribly in need of a rework because of both how contradictory it is (by restricting major expedition to such a small area) and also how redundant it is (with both cripple and double take providing major expedition without the aforementioned area restriction).
Joy_Division wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »@twing1_
The thing is, templars dont need Sun Shield (their class shield) bc/ they have BoL
And if they didn't have BoL, they'd need something bc/ health based shields aren't very good for non-tanks. And Sun Shield isn't very good or versatile even then
Okay, sure. Templar don't need their shield because they have BoL. But they still have one.
You can make the argument that NB don't need a shield either, because they have cloak. But if it turns out that this isn't the case (often, because cloak is such an all-or-nothing tactic and also so easily counterable), the difference is they don't even have access to one, whereas literally every other class does (in some form or another).
I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. And unfortunately, NB right now have the latter while all other classes have the former.
I just don't see how it could hurt adding one to the NB arsenal, especially in place of path of darkness when it is so terribly in need of a rework because of both how contradictory it is (by restricting major expedition to such a small area) and also how redundant it is (with both cripple and double take providing major expedition without the aforementioned area restriction).
It won;t mater because NBs can only put on 10 skills on their bar. By giving them a bad skill, you are forcing the class to in effect play with 9 skills plus rely on something adequate for the given task, which I would argue puts NBs in a worse situation since their (competent) opponents will have 10 good skills and their bar and all of them will be up to the task. Your build would be better off in more situations vs. more opponents keeping the good skill you're going to take off your bar for that shield.
It's the same reason just about every stam build worth their salt does not slot bone shield (a health based shield that costs stamina). Sure, having it could boost their defense a little, but then they'd have to give up Bleeds or evasion or snare immunity or something like Green Lotus which are more potent and versatile skills.
Magicka NBs need real help, not impulsive changes that won;t even make much of a difference.
The idea is not needed for extremely obvious reasons. Everyone has access to a shield via the light armor skill line and only one class has a shield that scales off max magicka. If you want to play a NB with a magicka shield wear LA.
The other big issue is we do not need to start making all classes the same which is exactly what this idea is. OP wants to make the NB more like a Sorc.
Like I already mentioned at the post above, there is a problematic situation what comes with the current shield availability.
The balance changes over years and so does skills as well. Not everything works as they used to be (more details already written above) and sometimes comes the point when class skills should be re-considered.
I do agree that classes should have their class identity, but if you think that giving one own class shield makes Nightblade too much Sorc a like, fair enough. We are both free to agree to disagree here.
There is not a problem. The NB performs fine with the defenses they have.
The mere fact that templars, wardens and dks do not have a class shield that is magicka based and people do fine on them, just like they do fine with a NB as it is demonstrates clearly there is not a problem in this area. That is both in PvP and PvE.
So if you are having problems playing your NB because you do not have a class based shield then I suggest you play the sorc and no other class. It does not seem many agree with your proposal so I guess most of us will agree to disagree with you.
What is being said in this thread is some are having problems playing a NB so we want a skill like the Sorc has. Those should go play a Sorc instead of making the NB more like one. Argue all you want, but that is exactly what this thread is about.
That's what you assume and nothing what I really said at first place. Those are things which you want to believe, but I guess it wouldn't change your mind even if I would say we are not trying to suggest here that developers should go and copy paste Sorcerer shield for Nightblades and call the job done.
What I asked here was mostly replacement shield, which could release mag NBs from pigeonhole of relying on restoration staff and opening build variety by implementing a class shield, which would function much more proper way.
And what is this "proper way"?
1) We get it to ourselves every time, 100 % guaranteed.
2) Enable an access to slot anything else than restoration staff for backbar, if wanting to use additional defensive shield.
(Combined with - very likely already slotted - LA shield)
And how this defensive shield could function? Now that's important topic to discuss.
What I would expect is that the damage shield would have unique function, separating the shield out of other classes shields, yet still keeping the unique feel which the class still have. This could be done many different ways, yet the class identity would remain.
I also really much like @twing1_ idea of giving a shield, which would return health when the shield is being damaged.
Now that would be something which I would consider worth to slot, depending how developers would make the shield actually function.
And now that's important to remember:
We can throw suggestions from doors and windows, but at the end it will be developers who will make the final design/decision.
It's too early to freak out, when we are only on discussion stage.
KhajiitFelix wrote: »
Really now. So you are not suggesting a magicka based shield for a magicka based character? OP is speaking specifically about the magNB in a damage roll. It would be silly and absurd for a magcika dps or heal build to use a health based shield which is essentially our only other real choice.
So to suggest the idea is not a shield like a Sorc has seems a little like smoke an mirrors.
Why would you want to pigeonhole mag NB into shieldstacking as well?
Why would you want to pigeonhole mag NB into shieldstacking as well?
We are already there. Have you paid attention how many of popular mag NB builds are stacking LA shield and healing ward?
What I'm trying to do here is improve the situation and get rid off unreliable healing ward and get out of the pigeonhole, which forces to use restoration staff, due there's no any other better shield left outside of using LA shield.
(And that's the one many of us already have slotted.)
Why would you want to pigeonhole mag NB into shieldstacking as well?
We are already there. Have you paid attention how many of popular mag NB builds are stacking LA shield and healing ward?
What I'm trying to do here is improve the situation and get rid off unreliable healing ward and get out of the pigeonhole, which forces to use restoration staff, due there's no any other better shield left outside of using LA shield.
(And that's the one many of us already have slotted.)
I'm quite aware, I guess I should have made more clear about my concerns. Sorc hasn't been getting any alternative to their defense outside Conjured Ward since it became the by far most powerful class shield with the removal of softcaps. I don't want NB to be held back the same way.
Why would you want to pigeonhole mag NB into shieldstacking as well?
We are already there. Have you paid attention how many of popular mag NB builds are stacking LA shield and healing ward?
What I'm trying to do here is improve the situation and get rid off unreliable healing ward and get out of the pigeonhole, which forces to use restoration staff, due there's no any other better shield left outside of using LA shield.
(And that's the one many of us already have slotted.)
I'm quite aware, I guess I should have made more clear about my concerns. Sorc hasn't been getting any alternative to their defense outside Conjured Ward since it became the by far most powerful class shield with the removal of softcaps. I don't want NB to be held back the same way.
I can understand your concerns and lack of alternatives what comes with Sorcerers.
However now when mag NB is already at bottom tier, at this point getting class shield would be only a step towards better direction and it would open much more build variety due NB have some skills in the tool kit which already deserve a rework.
If developers does these changes right, build variety would only improve, not decrease. Those cloack spammers could still spam cloak all day all night if they want, but also visible defense would improve. That would be only a positive thing.
Why would you want to pigeonhole mag NB into shieldstacking as well?
We are already there. Have you paid attention how many of popular mag NB builds are stacking LA shield and healing ward?
What I'm trying to do here is improve the situation and get rid off unreliable healing ward and get out of the pigeonhole, which forces to use restoration staff, due there's no any other better shield left outside of using LA shield.
(And that's the one many of us already have slotted.)
I'm quite aware, I guess I should have made more clear about my concerns. Sorc hasn't been getting any alternative to their defense outside Conjured Ward since it became the by far most powerful class shield with the removal of softcaps. I don't want NB to be held back the same way.
I can understand your concerns and lack of alternatives what comes with Sorcerers.
However now when mag NB is already at bottom tier, at this point getting class shield would be only a step towards better direction and it would open much more build variety due NB have some skills in the tool kit which already deserve a rework.
If developers does these changes right, build variety would only improve, not decrease. Those cloack spammers could still spam cloak all day all night if they want, but also visible defense would improve. That would be only a positive thing.
Why would you want to pigeonhole mag NB into shieldstacking as well?
We are already there. Have you paid attention how many of popular mag NB builds are stacking LA shield and healing ward?
What I'm trying to do here is improve the situation and get rid off unreliable healing ward and get out of the pigeonhole, which forces to use restoration staff, due there's no any other better shield left outside of using LA shield.
(And that's the one many of us already have slotted.)
I'm quite aware, I guess I should have made more clear about my concerns. Sorc hasn't been getting any alternative to their defense outside Conjured Ward since it became the by far most powerful class shield with the removal of softcaps. I don't want NB to be held back the same way.
I can understand your concerns and lack of alternatives what comes with Sorcerers.
However now when mag NB is already at bottom tier, at this point getting class shield would be only a step towards better direction and it would open much more build variety due NB have some skills in the tool kit which already deserve a rework.
If developers does these changes right, build variety would only improve, not decrease. Those cloack spammers could still spam cloak all day all night if they want, but also visible defense would improve. That would be only a positive thing.
I don't get it. What is the difference of the skill you're suggesting to the already existing Dampen Magicka?
To everyone that is comparing NB (if they receive a class shield) to sorc: Every class has a damage shield of some kind (though most others scale off of health) except for NB. So giving NB access to a class damage shield would not necessarily be cutting into sorc's class identity at all.
For some reason, everyone is assuming that the NB shield would scale off of magicka. Nowhere in the original post does it even allude to this. If the shield scaled off of health (like most other class shields do), sorcs would remain as the only class with a magicka based shield and retain their class identity.
The homogeonization of classes is a fair point. But as it currently stands, that homogeonization (in regards to class shields) already exists, excluding the NB. Giving NB a shield would only bring NB up to speed in this regard, and wouldn't be the end of class differences.
Luckylancer wrote: »To everyone that is comparing NB (if they receive a class shield) to sorc: Every class has a damage shield of some kind (though most others scale off of health) except for NB. So giving NB access to a class damage shield would not necessarily be cutting into sorc's class identity at all.
For some reason, everyone is assuming that the NB shield would scale off of magicka. Nowhere in the original post does it even allude to this. If the shield scaled off of health (like most other class shields do), sorcs would remain as the only class with a magicka based shield and retain their class identity.
The homogeonization of classes is a fair point. But as it currently stands, that homogeonization (in regards to class shields) already exists, excluding the NB. Giving NB a shield would only bring NB up to speed in this regard, and wouldn't be the end of class differences.
Dude, max hp and mag shields are ENTIRELY diffrent. Their play styles are diffrent.
Why do you want max hp shield to buff magblade? Isnt the problem all about how magblades are underperforming in pvp? Do sun shield do magplars any good in pvp?
If max health shield would be usefull, %36 max hp heal would be used right now. Giving magblade max hp shield wont fix anything, giving magblade mag shield will make thrm sorc clone.
Solution is giving class hots back, give refreshing path its dmg back and maybe give them magicka snare removal (a blurr morp?) with bulky mag cost so stamblades cant have it.
Luckylancer wrote: »To everyone that is comparing NB (if they receive a class shield) to sorc: Every class has a damage shield of some kind (though most others scale off of health) except for NB. So giving NB access to a class damage shield would not necessarily be cutting into sorc's class identity at all.
For some reason, everyone is assuming that the NB shield would scale off of magicka. Nowhere in the original post does it even allude to this. If the shield scaled off of health (like most other class shields do), sorcs would remain as the only class with a magicka based shield and retain their class identity.
The homogeonization of classes is a fair point. But as it currently stands, that homogeonization (in regards to class shields) already exists, excluding the NB. Giving NB a shield would only bring NB up to speed in this regard, and wouldn't be the end of class differences.
Dude, max hp and mag shields are ENTIRELY diffrent. Their play styles are diffrent.
Why do you want max hp shield to buff magblade? Isnt the problem all about how magblades are underperforming in pvp? Do sun shield do magplars any good in pvp?
If max health shield would be usefull, %36 max hp heal would be used right now. Giving magblade max hp shield wont fix anything, giving magblade mag shield will make thrm sorc clone.
Solution is giving class hots back, give refreshing path its dmg back and maybe give them magicka snare removal (a blurr morp?) with bulky mag cost so stamblades cant have it.
Emma_Overload wrote: »
Greetings everyone!
I bet many of you have a memory of Murkmire balance changes and how those changes affected different classes, especially magicka based classes.
I'm aware that shield changes and how they functions did impact several classes a lot, but it's a fact that these very same issues did impact Mag Blades heavily as well, making gameplay in PvP combat much more tricky. In this thread I'll be talking from solo mag NB player's perspective and explain why I think why ability re-design could turn out to be giant quality of life improvement, regarding mag blades.
What kind of change I'm asking for then?
Re-designing a Nightblade skill to function as actual damage shield.
Why I think that way?
Let's take a look at Magicka Nightblades class skills. Can you spot actual damage shield? Me neither.
A class shield does not exist for Nightblades and this previously was not an issue, before Murkmire patch did land on live servers, leaving Mag blade more vulnerable place than they used to be before. For those who prefer to fight visible, they have only two kind of shields available: Annulment (and its morphs) and Steadfast Ward (and its morphs).
Why is that problematic?
As many players are aware, Nightblades do have a cloack, which you can not always rely against competitive enemies with counters.
Once you're thrown out of your cloack with detection pots/AOE skills and you're starting to get heavy pressure, there are a few things which you can do:
Continue teleporting with shade occassionally or try to activate LA shield/healing ward and depending of your build and your resistances, those shields lasts often quite short time before they are gone.
How many of you still remember what happened to healing ward at Murkmire patch? Yes, right, first burst heal was completely removed and now what you can do as a mag blade is activating healing ward and cloacking away, trying to force the final heal. However that's problematic by two reasons:
When you do so and activate cloack for trying to protect your precious shield, you give a great opportunity for your enemy to recover and gain some HP. But why to stop there?
Why to let slippery Nightblade vanish with cloack, when detection pots/Aoes exists?
At that point Magblade find themselves often trying layer shields and protect healing ward with LA shield. That may not end well, if NB can't find a way to turn tables around.
ALSO there are always those moments when an ally is near and sometimes you won't get the healing ward for yourself at first place.
This kind of situation you can try to counter by slotting "Ward Ally" morph instead, guaranteeing a shield for you when you activate the skill and get shield for yourself & possible ally and then keep filling your HP bar by another healing skills. But then again this is exactly what we have to do anyways with healing ward too, when being outside of cloack.
What's the point, when against competitive opponent those cute little shields will be wiped off quickly?
Why class shield would be quality of life improvement?
If mag blades could get actual damage shield from their class skill line, we could slot reliable damage shield and magicka nightblades could finally get out of pigeonhole which is almost forcing us to use healing ward at most common PvP builds. We could get more build variety as a result, when class shield could replace healing ward and restoration staves could be thrown out of window.
Why do I suggest this now?
Since developers already mentioned at "Update 22 Combat Direction" - thread that they're looking into classes tool kits and perhaps reworking skills, which are providing similar effects.
They may have some visions already how to do changes, but if there is any room for further possible adjustments, it would be amazing if some improvements could be considered.
And that's exact reason why I'm posting this thread right now. Getting class shield for mag Blades would be significant QOL - improvement for these underdogs of PvP.
Dude, they are getting rid of the Wings Reflect, I dont need no shield, actualy I dont need any buff at all, they can take away everything they want from me now! Im super happy! Finaly after 5 years, I going to be able to at least Damage a DK...
So happy!!!