Buff BOW damage builds :(

cpuScientist

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Bow doesn't need a buff, if anything endless hail looks like it needs a nerf to me. Pretty much anytime I see someone posting a parse endless hail is always #1 by a large margin, and it's an aoe skill.

Just the fact that an aoe spell hits so hard in a single target rotation is an imbalance. Whether it's the maelstrom bow or the spell itself, it clearly is a mandatory ability for any stamina build and nothing is even close.

Hail would be around 12% of the whole parse for stamina. By comparison, on magicka parses, light attack can be 20%, sometimes up to 25% of whole damage. Using your logic... seems like we have to nerf light attacks for magicka into the ground, they're overperforming. ^^

Yeah I agree. And one of the reasons light attack hits so hard for them besides over buff cough is vma DESTRO staff that thing adds a nice little chunk of dps just like vma bow does. So I think hail should stay as is. Buff up dualwield or what have you to hail standards. Don't Nerf bow into the ground. Because then Stam will need another wack proc set like relequen to be of any use. Hate that set so much lol.

hedna123b14_ESO

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

cpuScientist

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Ok with AY Relequen and the same helmet. What do you get on StamDen? That's the basic meta setup right now for DW stamina builds.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Wavek wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Wildbloom wrote: »

Bow builds are actually thriving harder than ever right now, if you have the right setup. Especially bow Warden can do really well, from what I've seen.

Well let’s be clear, a solid chunk of bow dps is spider synergy. Without that, they’d likely still be underwhelming.

A bow build on a solo target dummy with no outside buffs can still go over 40k dps... that is plenty for anything in the game.

When Khajiit Stamplar with VH + Briar does 38K single target on a lazy rotation in real content not dummies, you do know that 40K on a dummy is too low. Even 70K with buffbot and synergies is low

Donnasnowheart_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Donnasnowheart_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Donnasnowheart_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Donnasnowheart_ESO wrote: »

the stam sorc vid has me in tears literally using prey to boost the spider damage smh.

What is wrong with that? People are always asking for more class flavor. Also prey buffs the atro.

Please, its all the spiders and on top of it the build doesn't even showcase anything defining to stam sorc outside of a passive ability, already know that it buffs the atro thats not the point. The sad bit is that its being used to buff the spiders. This isn't a case of adding flavor its just another case of something being overlooked when implemented. Literally the spiders bite overtook rele for damage if you look at the parse after. I'm in tears over this because things like this is what could end up nerfing moves that have nothing to do with spiders especially given Zos track record when it comes to nerfs.

Pretty sure deadric pretty counts as an active ablity, you have to cast it for it to do anything. I actually brought this combo up in a previous thread. It is very obvious. Really doubt that ZOS overlooked it.

Also I am now confused at what you mean by " in tears". At first it read like you found it funny, in this post it reads like you will be sad by it. Which is it?

"Anything defining to stam sorc" is deadric prey a defining stam sorc ability no. In tears, have you never laughed at something that was sad and laughed about it because its logic is messed up?

What makes deadric prey not a Stam sorc skill? You seem to be just looking for any excuse to rag on good build.

And no, I don't laugh when I am sad. Like a normal person.

I give up your clearly going to drag this on and I have no intentions of doing so. daedric prey is a "Defining magicka pet sorc ability" always has been, the recent buffs to pets over buffed spiders so much that its worth using prey with them on a stam sorc. Spiders used to be a thing in the past and it was nerfed for a reason. No synergy skill should be the majority and in an actual trial your top dps number that you aren't even casting its bad design and in no way a good build.

Enjoy your Spider prey synergy build.

You forgot Relequen on a static target without mechanics, using high crit build without penetration, as the dummy has 0 defences

And you are right. The video is misleading as he is using buff and synergy "bot".

John_Falstaff

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Wavek wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Wildbloom wrote: »

Bow builds are actually thriving harder than ever right now, if you have the right setup. Especially bow Warden can do really well, from what I've seen.

Well let’s be clear, a solid chunk of bow dps is spider synergy. Without that, they’d likely still be underwhelming.

A bow build on a solo target dummy with no outside buffs can still go over 40k dps... that is plenty for anything in the game.

When Khajiit Stamplar with VH + Briar does 38K single target on a lazy rotation in real content not dummies, you do know that 40K on a dummy is too low. Even 70K with buffbot and synergies is low

Donnasnowheart_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Donnasnowheart_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Donnasnowheart_ESO wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Donnasnowheart_ESO wrote: »

the stam sorc vid has me in tears literally using prey to boost the spider damage smh.

What is wrong with that? People are always asking for more class flavor. Also prey buffs the atro.

Please, its all the spiders and on top of it the build doesn't even showcase anything defining to stam sorc outside of a passive ability, already know that it buffs the atro thats not the point. The sad bit is that its being used to buff the spiders. This isn't a case of adding flavor its just another case of something being overlooked when implemented. Literally the spiders bite overtook rele for damage if you look at the parse after. I'm in tears over this because things like this is what could end up nerfing moves that have nothing to do with spiders especially given Zos track record when it comes to nerfs.

Pretty sure deadric pretty counts as an active ablity, you have to cast it for it to do anything. I actually brought this combo up in a previous thread. It is very obvious. Really doubt that ZOS overlooked it.

Also I am now confused at what you mean by " in tears". At first it read like you found it funny, in this post it reads like you will be sad by it. Which is it?

"Anything defining to stam sorc" is deadric prey a defining stam sorc ability no. In tears, have you never laughed at something that was sad and laughed about it because its logic is messed up?

What makes deadric prey not a Stam sorc skill? You seem to be just looking for any excuse to rag on good build.

And no, I don't laugh when I am sad. Like a normal person.

I give up your clearly going to drag this on and I have no intentions of doing so. daedric prey is a "Defining magicka pet sorc ability" always has been, the recent buffs to pets over buffed spiders so much that its worth using prey with them on a stam sorc. Spiders used to be a thing in the past and it was nerfed for a reason. No synergy skill should be the majority and in an actual trial your top dps number that you aren't even casting its bad design and in no way a good build.

Enjoy your Spider prey synergy build.

You forgot Relequen on a static target without mechanics, using high crit build without penetration, as the dummy has 0 defences

And you are right. The video is misleading as he is using buff and synergy "bot".

I wonder where did you get that last bit from? 3mil dummy and up have normal 18.2k resistances, just like any dungeon/trial boss.

hedna123b14_ESO

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Ok with AY Relequen and the same helmet. What do you get on StamDen? That's the basic meta setup right now for DW stamina builds.

Havent tested recently, ilI will have all videos up next week once the pts drops though

DHale

you are many patches behind, Bow Bow builds are some of the highest dps in the game. In the last Trial I did about a week ago half the dps group was bow bow. Sad that I finally got my AY second dagger just to meta $ump.

kalunte

bow/bow builds needs more identity but not necessarly more dmg. the fact is you have more dmg at medium range with a healer behind you (because of minor berzerk) than at max range which is supposed to be the weapon's identity, given to the long range passive.

something could be done in that direction by giving the minor berzerk buff as a passive once you reach 5stacks of hawk eye for exemple.

still the game is designed in such a way that being at max range also make you go out of healing range, out of warmachine procs, and so on.

i think some minor protection could be given with the minor berzerk once 5stacks of hawk eye are reached, but such buffs would come with dmg nerfs (because of pvp mostly).

quick toughts.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Bow would will need to be buffed if when spiders get nerfed

Fixed that for ya, buddy. haha

I will be absolutely blown away if ZOS dosent beat these spiders with a nerf hammer very hard next patch. We are back to the early pet sorc days where the easiest rotation in the game pulls max DPS. I doubt it will last.

As surprised as you were when they let NB be bis for a year?

But at least with NB, they could sit back with a straight face and say, "Yes its the best DPS class, but its also the most difficult rotation in the game, and when not executed well, your DPS will suffer hard. With risk comes reward."

This is a different animal altogether. It does require a bit of group cooridnation, but as meta DPS builds go, this rotation is trivial. Again, it reminds me of the early VHOF days when everyone was running a heavy attack sorc (except for you of course, going stam melee like a boss, haha). The rotation was simple and the DPS was insane for the time.

cpuScientist

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Bow would will need to be buffed if when spiders get nerfed

Fixed that for ya, buddy. haha

I will be absolutely blown away if ZOS dosent beat these spiders with a nerf hammer very hard next patch. We are back to the early pet sorc days where the easiest rotation in the game pulls max DPS. I doubt it will last.

As surprised as you were when they let NB be bis for a year?

But at least with NB, they could sit back with a straight face and say, "Yes its the best DPS class, but its also the most difficult rotation in the game, and when not executed well, your DPS will suffer hard. With risk comes reward."

This is a different animal altogether. It does require a bit of group cooridnation, but as meta DPS builds go, this rotation is trivial. Again, it reminds me of the early VHOF days when everyone was running a heavy attack sorc (except for you of course, going stam melee like a boss, haha). The rotation was simple and the DPS was insane for the time.

Yeah I hate ez pz rotations. I also hate how dependant Stam is on *** gimmicky stuff. Like Relequen and now the bug.

MashmalloMan

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Ok with AY Relequen and the same helmet. What do you get on StamDen? That's the basic meta setup right now for DW stamina builds.

Press the spoilers tab for more details. I'm not perfect at stamden rotations so you might be able to pull more dps, both parses had their respective meta options and I think it's a fair comparison. Do 10 parses of each and I'm willing to bet they average within 1k dps of one another at 50k solo dps level.

Point is, bow's are fine the way they are, anyone who thinks they perform vastly behind melee hasn't tested it themselves. This is before spiders which aren't available to melee and the synergy quite frankly should be nerfed in to the ground.

The main issue is bow/bow builds feel so simple. They need more identity, not more dps.

Marshall1289 wrote: »

I just went to the pts to do this. Show spoiler for more details:

Obviously you should do more than 1 parse honestly my Bow/Bow parse had some higher than avg crits on the bigger skills, but bows are a ranged weapon. Why do they parse so similarly with DW, on top of it, we have the spider Synergy.

Even without the Spiders, bows are very much viable and don't need any buffs whatsoever. The sustain is easier because you don't need to cast beast and the rotation is easier. If I had someone providing major fracture I wouldn't even bother using Shalks for single target dps.

The only thing I switched between these 2 builds is Tzogvin's Warband for bow/bow to Advancing Yokeda for bow/dw.

Jewelry all infused WPD.

Tzogvin's Warband Bow Nirn Absorb Sta.
Advancing Yokeda Daggers Nirn Absorb Sta/Sharpened Poison

CP remained the same, putting the bow/dw build only 111 pen behind the bow/bow build. I figured this was fair considering the extra crit Advancing Yokeda has and there was no way to fix that.

My bow/bow parse within melee range of target, so don't say it was long shot passive.

Someone better than me could pull 50k+ dps for the both of them consistently.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

cpuScientist wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Bow would will need to be buffed if when spiders get nerfed

Fixed that for ya, buddy. haha

I will be absolutely blown away if ZOS dosent beat these spiders with a nerf hammer very hard next patch. We are back to the early pet sorc days where the easiest rotation in the game pulls max DPS. I doubt it will last.

As surprised as you were when they let NB be bis for a year?

But at least with NB, they could sit back with a straight face and say, "Yes its the best DPS class, but its also the most difficult rotation in the game, and when not executed well, your DPS will suffer hard. With risk comes reward."

This is a different animal altogether. It does require a bit of group cooridnation, but as meta DPS builds go, this rotation is trivial. Again, it reminds me of the early VHOF days when everyone was running a heavy attack sorc (except for you of course, going stam melee like a boss, haha). The rotation was simple and the DPS was insane for the time.

Yeah I hate ez pz rotations. I also hate how dependant Stam is on *** gimmicky stuff. Like Relequen and now the bug.

In fairness, it's not that I hate easy rotations. A good chunk of the playerbase is never going to be able to execute a dynamic rotation. There need to be various levels of rotations in terms of difficulty for different portions of the playerbase.

The problem I have (obviously) is that I dont think an easy rotation should also result in the most DPS. There should be a reward for skilled play. Now certainly, reasonable minds can perhaps debate just how much of a gap there should be.

To play devils advocate to myself, back in the early VHOF days when heavy attack sorcs were king, there were certainly more trial groups in contention and trying to push score, which is hard to argue as a bad thing on its face in terms of health of the game.

Toc de Malsvi

Marshall1289 wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Ok with AY Relequen and the same helmet. What do you get on StamDen? That's the basic meta setup right now for DW stamina builds.

Press the spoilers tab for more details. I'm not perfect at stamden rotations so you might be able to pull more dps, both parses had their respective meta options and I think it's a fair comparison. Do 10 parses of each and I'm willing to bet they average within 1k dps of one another at 50k solo dps level.

Point is, bow's are fine the way they are, anyone who thinks they perform vastly behind melee hasn't tested it themselves. This is before spiders which aren't available to melee and the synergy quite frankly should be nerfed in to the ground.

The main issue is bow/bow builds feel so simple. They need more identity, not more dps.

Marshall1289 wrote: »

I just went to the pts to do this. Show spoiler for more details:

Obviously you should do more than 1 parse honestly my Bow/Bow parse had some higher than avg crits on the bigger skills, but bows are a ranged weapon. Why do they parse so similarly with DW, on top of it, we have the spider Synergy.

Even without the Spiders, bows are very much viable and don't need any buffs whatsoever. The sustain is easier because you don't need to cast beast and the rotation is easier. If I had someone providing major fracture I wouldn't even bother using Shalks for single target dps.

The only thing I switched between these 2 builds is Tzogvin's Warband for bow/bow to Advancing Yokeda for bow/dw.

Jewelry all infused WPD.

Tzogvin's Warband Bow Nirn Absorb Sta.
Advancing Yokeda Daggers Nirn Absorb Sta/Sharpened Poison

CP remained the same, putting the bow/dw build only 111 pen behind the bow/bow build. I figured this was fair considering the extra crit Advancing Yokeda has and there was no way to fix that.

My bow/bow parse within melee range of target, so don't say it was long shot passive.

Someone better than me could pull 50k+ dps for the both of them consistently.

While solo buffed I agree they are indeed pretty close. I think you will find that as you stack group buffs the gap widens a bit between Bow/Bow and DW/Bow.

A big part of high end dps in trials is execute damage and Bow/Bow just doesn't have the options of DW/Bow there. Also Hawkeye as a percentage damage buff becomes less and less valuable as you stack more percentage modifiers, where as the higher base weapon damage of DW does not diminish in value.

I do think they could reduce the synergy value a bit without destroying the benefit. I just want to point out that there is a difference in performance when you consider competitive play. Outside of organized group buffs stam DK doesn't appear to be so bad, when you start pushing those buffs it drops behind.

p00tx

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Stamden is about to become meta when they remove minor berserk from NBs. Not that this has anything to do with the discussion. Also, I get why you used the same set on the two specs, and I appreciate you establishing a control for your experiment.

MashmalloMan

p00tx wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Stamden is about to become meta when they remove minor berserk from NBs. Not that this has anything to do with the discussion. Also, I get why you used the same set on the two specs, and I appreciate you establishing a control for your experiment.

There has been no official information released about u22 class balance besides the post pinned currently. These are rumors and while I think the NB change will indeed come to fruition, what makes you think they won't take the same pass at warden's passively getting minor berserk.

Context is key.

When 2/5 classes had access to minor berserk in their class kit I would of said that all classes deserve that same access to such an important buff, but now that it might be removed from NB it should be removed from Warden too. It makes more sense as a group buff specific to healers. Take away some of that passive damage and offer it to the rest of the Warden's kit.

MashmalloMan

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Ok with AY Relequen and the same helmet. What do you get on StamDen? That's the basic meta setup right now for DW stamina builds.

Press the spoilers tab for more details. I'm not perfect at stamden rotations so you might be able to pull more dps, both parses had their respective meta options and I think it's a fair comparison. Do 10 parses of each and I'm willing to bet they average within 1k dps of one another at 50k solo dps level.

Point is, bow's are fine the way they are, anyone who thinks they perform vastly behind melee hasn't tested it themselves. This is before spiders which aren't available to melee and the synergy quite frankly should be nerfed in to the ground.

The main issue is bow/bow builds feel so simple. They need more identity, not more dps.

Marshall1289 wrote: »

I just went to the pts to do this. Show spoiler for more details:

Obviously you should do more than 1 parse honestly my Bow/Bow parse had some higher than avg crits on the bigger skills, but bows are a ranged weapon. Why do they parse so similarly with DW, on top of it, we have the spider Synergy.

Even without the Spiders, bows are very much viable and don't need any buffs whatsoever. The sustain is easier because you don't need to cast beast and the rotation is easier. If I had someone providing major fracture I wouldn't even bother using Shalks for single target dps.

The only thing I switched between these 2 builds is Tzogvin's Warband for bow/bow to Advancing Yokeda for bow/dw.

Jewelry all infused WPD.

Tzogvin's Warband Bow Nirn Absorb Sta.
Advancing Yokeda Daggers Nirn Absorb Sta/Sharpened Poison

CP remained the same, putting the bow/dw build only 111 pen behind the bow/bow build. I figured this was fair considering the extra crit Advancing Yokeda has and there was no way to fix that.

My bow/bow parse within melee range of target, so don't say it was long shot passive.

Someone better than me could pull 50k+ dps for the both of them consistently.

While solo buffed I agree they are indeed pretty close. I think you will find that as you stack group buffs the gap widens a bit between Bow/Bow and DW/Bow.

A big part of high end dps in trials is execute damage and Bow/Bow just doesn't have the options of DW/Bow there. Also Hawkeye as a percentage damage buff becomes less and less valuable as you stack more percentage modifiers, where as the higher base weapon damage of DW does not diminish in value.

I do think they could reduce the synergy value a bit without destroying the benefit. I just want to point out that there is a difference in performance when you consider competitive play. Outside of organized group buffs stam DK doesn't appear to be so bad, when you start pushing those buffs it drops behind.

You make a good point with the damage done, I'm curious to see how big of a difference that would be with all those factors at play. It will be extremely easy to test when we have the new dummy.

In fairness, the dps potential of a ranged weapon should be lesser than melee with the whole risk vs reward balancing view. The fact that they are so close (at least solo) goes against this though.

Risk vs reward when it comes to melee vs ranged is also tied to the content in the game. If most fights are stack and burns then it really doesn't matter if melee deserves more dps vs ranged because ranged have to be in melee range anyway.

I think this game has it's fair share of content to support those ideas so bow/bow should be at least 5% dps behind melee, but with the spider synergy currently they are ahead.

All that being said, it's nice to see bow/bow get it's time in the spotlight.

cpuScientist

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Ok with AY Relequen and the same helmet. What do you get on StamDen? That's the basic meta setup right now for DW stamina builds.

Press the spoilers tab for more details. I'm not perfect at stamden rotations so you might be able to pull more dps, both parses had their respective meta options and I think it's a fair comparison. Do 10 parses of each and I'm willing to bet they average within 1k dps of one another at 50k solo dps level.

Point is, bow's are fine the way they are, anyone who thinks they perform vastly behind melee hasn't tested it themselves. This is before spiders which aren't available to melee and the synergy quite frankly should be nerfed in to the ground.

The main issue is bow/bow builds feel so simple. They need more identity, not more dps.

Marshall1289 wrote: »

I just went to the pts to do this. Show spoiler for more details:

Obviously you should do more than 1 parse honestly my Bow/Bow parse had some higher than avg crits on the bigger skills, but bows are a ranged weapon. Why do they parse so similarly with DW, on top of it, we have the spider Synergy.

Even without the Spiders, bows are very much viable and don't need any buffs whatsoever. The sustain is easier because you don't need to cast beast and the rotation is easier. If I had someone providing major fracture I wouldn't even bother using Shalks for single target dps.

The only thing I switched between these 2 builds is Tzogvin's Warband for bow/bow to Advancing Yokeda for bow/dw.

Jewelry all infused WPD.

Tzogvin's Warband Bow Nirn Absorb Sta.
Advancing Yokeda Daggers Nirn Absorb Sta/Sharpened Poison

CP remained the same, putting the bow/dw build only 111 pen behind the bow/bow build. I figured this was fair considering the extra crit Advancing Yokeda has and there was no way to fix that.

My bow/bow parse within melee range of target, so don't say it was long shot passive.

Someone better than me could pull 50k+ dps for the both of them consistently.

While solo buffed I agree they are indeed pretty close. I think you will find that as you stack group buffs the gap widens a bit between Bow/Bow and DW/Bow.

A big part of high end dps in trials is execute damage and Bow/Bow just doesn't have the options of DW/Bow there. Also Hawkeye as a percentage damage buff becomes less and less valuable as you stack more percentage modifiers, where as the higher base weapon damage of DW does not diminish in value.

I do think they could reduce the synergy value a bit without destroying the benefit. I just want to point out that there is a difference in performance when you consider competitive play. Outside of organized group buffs stam DK doesn't appear to be so bad, when you start pushing those buffs it drops behind.

The 15% execute modifier on dw is nice but not a big enough deal as it only applies to dual wield abilities execute damage is only available to stamBlade and StamDen through the bear for Stam anyways so yes that is a reason that stamBlades have dominated, it is not a point for DW/Bow vs Bow/Bow unless I guess talking about stamBlade.

The extra weapon damage is more than made up for with bow hawk eye. They are both fine choices, but if or when spiders are nerfed then it would be back to melee Stamina when able as it provides just a little more and perhaps bow/bow when ranged or just mag lol...

I really think melee centered classes like magPlar with jabs and magDK should be on par with stamina and bow/bow should be on par with mag at range. It really should be plug and play with the classes with lesser sustain and harder rotation at the top and higher sustain with easier rotation at the bottom. But not a huge separation and not a brain dead rotation either like pet sorc heavy attack or something such.

hedna123b14_ESO

p00tx wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Stamden is about to become meta when they remove minor berserk from NBs. Not that this has anything to do with the discussion. Also, I get why you used the same set on the two specs, and I appreciate you establishing a control for your experiment.

I honestly dont think so unless more buffs come their way. Stamblade Killers Blade is too OP

cpuScientist

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Stamden is about to become meta when they remove minor berserk from NBs. Not that this has anything to do with the discussion. Also, I get why you used the same set on the two specs, and I appreciate you establishing a control for your experiment.

I honestly dont think so unless more buffs come their way. Stamblade Killers Blade is too OP

I aaaaagree with this. Most fights get harder in the execute phase and having Nightblades there makes that easier. If the DPS on all classes are relatively the same I rather the one that can make what's usually the hardest portion of a fight end quicker.

Only way Nightblade would be dumped is if they are just straight doing terrible dps, which they won't and shouldn't make happen.

hedna123b14_ESO

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Stamden is about to become meta when they remove minor berserk from NBs. Not that this has anything to do with the discussion. Also, I get why you used the same set on the two specs, and I appreciate you establishing a control for your experiment.

I honestly dont think so unless more buffs come their way. Stamblade Killers Blade is too OP

I aaaaagree with this. Most fights get harder in the execute phase and having Nightblades there makes that easier. If the DPS on all classes are relatively the same I rather the one that can make what's usually the hardest portion of a fight end quicker.

Only way Nightblade would be dumped is if they are just straight doing terrible dps, which they won't and shouldn't make happen.

See thats the problem, if only classes with no execute had a much higher dps output pre execute than classes WITH an execute, then it would be fine

FrancisCrawford

Wait a moment. Who determines the damage of a synergy -- the person who casts the skill or the one who grabs the synergy?

I thought it was the latter. But in that case spiders would fit any ranged build. Was I wrong?

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Wait a moment. Who determines the damage of a synergy -- the person who casts the skill or the one who grabs the synergy?

I thought it was the latter. But in that case spiders would fit any ranged build. Was I wrong?

It's whoever grabs the synergy, but it scales with stam significantly better than mag. Tested with my small group of friends and mag builds averaged about 1.5k dps from the synergy, where as stam grabbed 7-10k. This was done purely looking at synergy damage outside of a rotation or group buffs.

If I understand you correctly, ranged magicka builds should consider slotting spiders whenever there are enough stamina DDs around.

Ysbriel

drakeos99 wrote: »

Yet wanted to play as Ranger type build (Warden) and yet im forced to go into melee (when i wanted to play as ranged) so is it possible to see bow damage increase soon (Bring back Bow DPS Builds)

Forced by who? Bow/Bow can hit high numbers even at 400cp with non trial gear and there are alredy 45k dps builds out there that don’t really on spider silk that seems to be the fad now

cpuScientist

I personally want bow bow to be a thing simply because I like stamina in PvE more than Magicka. Even with the changes to shields it's just so safe and impersonal. But in places where range is simply flat out better I am not so selfish to say no meh I wanna play my way eff the group and their time. Further I want more variety in the range side. Further it's fun and different. It's also a playstyle very popular with many people just like ice mage is very much wanted.

Toc de Malsvi

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Wait a moment. Who determines the damage of a synergy -- the person who casts the skill or the one who grabs the synergy?

I thought it was the latter. But in that case spiders would fit any ranged build. Was I wrong?

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Wait a moment. Who determines the damage of a synergy -- the person who casts the skill or the one who grabs the synergy?

I thought it was the latter. But in that case spiders would fit any ranged build. Was I wrong?

It's whoever grabs the synergy, but it scales with stam significantly better than mag. Tested with my small group of friends and mag builds averaged about 1.5k dps from the synergy, where as stam grabbed 7-10k. This was done purely looking at synergy damage outside of a rotation or group buffs.

If I understand you correctly, ranged magicka builds should consider slotting spiders whenever there are enough stamina DDs around.

You have to be 12m away which makes it annoying for melee to run out to get. There are of course fight mechanics where melee will have to run somewhere anyways and they could use the synergy on the way or the way back.

As far as magicka running it generally thats not a great option. Many magicka builds struggle for bar space as it is and need their small stam pool to break free. It is better for a healer/tank to run it, or to have two ranged stam dps trade off synergies with each other.

The important thing is that its way better damage for stam to synergize so magicka should avoid taking the synergy if they see it unless they know no stam will be able to use it.

hedna123b14_ESO

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Ok with AY Relequen and the same helmet. What do you get on StamDen? That's the basic meta setup right now for DW stamina builds.

Press the spoilers tab for more details. I'm not perfect at stamden rotations so you might be able to pull more dps, both parses had their respective meta options and I think it's a fair comparison. Do 10 parses of each and I'm willing to bet they average within 1k dps of one another at 50k solo dps level.

Point is, bow's are fine the way they are, anyone who thinks they perform vastly behind melee hasn't tested it themselves. This is before spiders which aren't available to melee and the synergy quite frankly should be nerfed in to the ground.

The main issue is bow/bow builds feel so simple. They need more identity, not more dps.

Marshall1289 wrote: »

I just went to the pts to do this. Show spoiler for more details:

Obviously you should do more than 1 parse honestly my Bow/Bow parse had some higher than avg crits on the bigger skills, but bows are a ranged weapon. Why do they parse so similarly with DW, on top of it, we have the spider Synergy.

Even without the Spiders, bows are very much viable and don't need any buffs whatsoever. The sustain is easier because you don't need to cast beast and the rotation is easier. If I had someone providing major fracture I wouldn't even bother using Shalks for single target dps.

The only thing I switched between these 2 builds is Tzogvin's Warband for bow/bow to Advancing Yokeda for bow/dw.

Jewelry all infused WPD.

Tzogvin's Warband Bow Nirn Absorb Sta.
Advancing Yokeda Daggers Nirn Absorb Sta/Sharpened Poison

CP remained the same, putting the bow/dw build only 111 pen behind the bow/bow build. I figured this was fair considering the extra crit Advancing Yokeda has and there was no way to fix that.

My bow/bow parse within melee range of target, so don't say it was long shot passive.

Someone better than me could pull 50k+ dps for the both of them consistently.

While solo buffed I agree they are indeed pretty close. I think you will find that as you stack group buffs the gap widens a bit between Bow/Bow and DW/Bow.

A big part of high end dps in trials is execute damage and Bow/Bow just doesn't have the options of DW/Bow there. Also Hawkeye as a percentage damage buff becomes less and less valuable as you stack more percentage modifiers, where as the higher base weapon damage of DW does not diminish in value.

I do think they could reduce the synergy value a bit without destroying the benefit. I just want to point out that there is a difference in performance when you consider competitive play. Outside of organized group buffs stam DK doesn't appear to be so bad, when you start pushing those buffs it drops behind.

The 15% execute modifier on dw is nice but not a big enough deal as it only applies to dual wield abilities execute damage is only available to stamBlade and StamDen through the bear for Stam anyways so yes that is a reason that stamBlades have dominated, it is not a point for DW/Bow vs Bow/Bow unless I guess talking about stamBlade.

The extra weapon damage is more than made up for with bow hawk eye. They are both fine choices, but if or when spiders are nerfed then it would be back to melee Stamina when able as it provides just a little more and perhaps bow/bow when ranged or just mag lol...

I really think melee centered classes like magPlar with jabs and magDK should be on par with stamina and bow/bow should be on par with mag at range. It really should be plug and play with the classes with lesser sustain and harder rotation at the top and higher sustain with easier rotation at the bottom. But not a huge separation and not a brain dead rotation either like pet sorc heavy attack or something such.

You are not considering how the value diminishes.

Lets say 100 weapon damage increases your output by X percentage, then adding more percentage modifiers

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Wait a moment. Who determines the damage of a synergy -- the person who casts the skill or the one who grabs the synergy?

I thought it was the latter. But in that case spiders would fit any ranged build. Was I wrong?

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Wait a moment. Who determines the damage of a synergy -- the person who casts the skill or the one who grabs the synergy?

I thought it was the latter. But in that case spiders would fit any ranged build. Was I wrong?

It's whoever grabs the synergy, but it scales with stam significantly better than mag. Tested with my small group of friends and mag builds averaged about 1.5k dps from the synergy, where as stam grabbed 7-10k. This was done purely looking at synergy damage outside of a rotation or group buffs.

If I understand you correctly, ranged magicka builds should consider slotting spiders whenever there are enough stamina DDs around.

You have to be 12m away which makes it annoying for melee to run out to get. There are of course fight mechanics where melee will have to run somewhere anyways and they could use the synergy on the way or the way back.

As far as magicka running it generally thats not a great option. Many magicka builds struggle for bar space as it is and need their small stam pool to break free. It is better for a healer/tank to run it, or to have two ranged stam dps trade off synergies with each other.

The important thing is that its way better damage for stam to synergize so magicka should avoid taking the synergy if they see it unless they know no stam will be able to use it.

You can get it in melee just fine on any fight with adds, there is a trick with how to do it. How the synergy works is that as long as it goes on a target that is 12 meters from you, you can activate the synergy. However the spiders attack which ever target you are looking at, so if there is an add 12 meters away and a tank throws the synergy on him, you get the prompt and you are looking at the boss, the spiders will spawn and go attack the boss.
Here is an example:

https://youtu.be/XaA83rPPS5Y

If you look at my parse I had 2 spider synergy procs in that fight

Toc de Malsvi

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Ok with AY Relequen and the same helmet. What do you get on StamDen? That's the basic meta setup right now for DW stamina builds.

Press the spoilers tab for more details. I'm not perfect at stamden rotations so you might be able to pull more dps, both parses had their respective meta options and I think it's a fair comparison. Do 10 parses of each and I'm willing to bet they average within 1k dps of one another at 50k solo dps level.

Point is, bow's are fine the way they are, anyone who thinks they perform vastly behind melee hasn't tested it themselves. This is before spiders which aren't available to melee and the synergy quite frankly should be nerfed in to the ground.

The main issue is bow/bow builds feel so simple. They need more identity, not more dps.

Marshall1289 wrote: »

I just went to the pts to do this. Show spoiler for more details:

Obviously you should do more than 1 parse honestly my Bow/Bow parse had some higher than avg crits on the bigger skills, but bows are a ranged weapon. Why do they parse so similarly with DW, on top of it, we have the spider Synergy.

Even without the Spiders, bows are very much viable and don't need any buffs whatsoever. The sustain is easier because you don't need to cast beast and the rotation is easier. If I had someone providing major fracture I wouldn't even bother using Shalks for single target dps.

The only thing I switched between these 2 builds is Tzogvin's Warband for bow/bow to Advancing Yokeda for bow/dw.

Jewelry all infused WPD.

Tzogvin's Warband Bow Nirn Absorb Sta.
Advancing Yokeda Daggers Nirn Absorb Sta/Sharpened Poison

CP remained the same, putting the bow/dw build only 111 pen behind the bow/bow build. I figured this was fair considering the extra crit Advancing Yokeda has and there was no way to fix that.

My bow/bow parse within melee range of target, so don't say it was long shot passive.

Someone better than me could pull 50k+ dps for the both of them consistently.

While solo buffed I agree they are indeed pretty close. I think you will find that as you stack group buffs the gap widens a bit between Bow/Bow and DW/Bow.

A big part of high end dps in trials is execute damage and Bow/Bow just doesn't have the options of DW/Bow there. Also Hawkeye as a percentage damage buff becomes less and less valuable as you stack more percentage modifiers, where as the higher base weapon damage of DW does not diminish in value.

I do think they could reduce the synergy value a bit without destroying the benefit. I just want to point out that there is a difference in performance when you consider competitive play. Outside of organized group buffs stam DK doesn't appear to be so bad, when you start pushing those buffs it drops behind.

The 15% execute modifier on dw is nice but not a big enough deal as it only applies to dual wield abilities execute damage is only available to stamBlade and StamDen through the bear for Stam anyways so yes that is a reason that stamBlades have dominated, it is not a point for DW/Bow vs Bow/Bow unless I guess talking about stamBlade.

The extra weapon damage is more than made up for with bow hawk eye. They are both fine choices, but if or when spiders are nerfed then it would be back to melee Stamina when able as it provides just a little more and perhaps bow/bow when ranged or just mag lol...

I really think melee centered classes like magPlar with jabs and magDK should be on par with stamina and bow/bow should be on par with mag at range. It really should be plug and play with the classes with lesser sustain and harder rotation at the top and higher sustain with easier rotation at the bottom. But not a huge separation and not a brain dead rotation either like pet sorc heavy attack or something such.

You are not considering how the value diminishes.

Lets say 100 weapon damage increases your output by X percentage, then adding more percentage modifiers

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Wait a moment. Who determines the damage of a synergy -- the person who casts the skill or the one who grabs the synergy?

I thought it was the latter. But in that case spiders would fit any ranged build. Was I wrong?

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Wait a moment. Who determines the damage of a synergy -- the person who casts the skill or the one who grabs the synergy?

I thought it was the latter. But in that case spiders would fit any ranged build. Was I wrong?

It's whoever grabs the synergy, but it scales with stam significantly better than mag. Tested with my small group of friends and mag builds averaged about 1.5k dps from the synergy, where as stam grabbed 7-10k. This was done purely looking at synergy damage outside of a rotation or group buffs.

If I understand you correctly, ranged magicka builds should consider slotting spiders whenever there are enough stamina DDs around.

You have to be 12m away which makes it annoying for melee to run out to get. There are of course fight mechanics where melee will have to run somewhere anyways and they could use the synergy on the way or the way back.

As far as magicka running it generally thats not a great option. Many magicka builds struggle for bar space as it is and need their small stam pool to break free. It is better for a healer/tank to run it, or to have two ranged stam dps trade off synergies with each other.

The important thing is that its way better damage for stam to synergize so magicka should avoid taking the synergy if they see it unless they know no stam will be able to use it.

You can get it in melee just fine on any fight with adds, there is a trick with how to do it. How the synergy works is that as long as it goes on a target that is 12 meters from you, you can activate the synergy. However the spiders attack which ever target you are looking at, so if there is an add 12 meters away and a tank throws the synergy on him, you get the prompt and you are looking at the boss, the spiders will spawn and go attack the boss.
Here is an example:

https://youtu.be/XaA83rPPS5Y

If you look at my parse I had 2 spider synergy procs in that fight

I'm familiar with how it works as far as the spiders popping up not on whatever is in the AOE but rather whatever your targeting reticle is hovering over when you use the synergy. I just haven't found others placement of it reliable enough to even consider using it in the manner you describe. I'm not saying it's not completely doable, I just think most players/groups aren't going to provide you with that synergy in all the ways you could truly maximize it. Often I'm calling for the synergy and they don't throw it until I dip into melee range then its thrown at my feet and I have to run back out. I probably could have been more complete in my response however.

Ramber

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

Bow/Bow Stam Sorc has one of the highest parses recorded since Wrathstone launched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tOg5dlh7ds

*ahem* not alone its not, try it self buffed my good man everyone is posting ext buffed parses these days what the heck happened... lava foot food, shards and orbs lol you might as well just writ it in instead of doing anything.

hedna123b14_ESO

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Good video and everything. Always good content. Just curious

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I did a comparison...they are close...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFHbuddEZss&list=PLVSzngPFSk5yOq6aoTqXHglrS7Hpav-3m&index=3&t=0s

Why did you use warband in both setups? Advancing is what dualwield would use. So the difference would be higher. Not much but using dualwield war and is not fair for the comparison. I understand wanting to compare same set-up but that's not a realistic setup.

I did it to show the difference between DW and Bow, not the meta DW VS Meta Bow. So I used the same gear to compare playstyles.

I know that's why, but just saying that's not what it would be balanced around or how one would make their decision.

What do you get when you use meta DW for StamDen in that same scenario? Do you have a parse of that

Hard to say what is meta for a stamden, because Stamden isnt meta, so I usually run Morag Tong for the group when I play it, however it is pretty much on par with AY.

Ok with AY Relequen and the same helmet. What do you get on StamDen? That's the basic meta setup right now for DW stamina builds.

Press the spoilers tab for more details. I'm not perfect at stamden rotations so you might be able to pull more dps, both parses had their respective meta options and I think it's a fair comparison. Do 10 parses of each and I'm willing to bet they average within 1k dps of one another at 50k solo dps level.

Point is, bow's are fine the way they are, anyone who thinks they perform vastly behind melee hasn't tested it themselves. This is before spiders which aren't available to melee and the synergy quite frankly should be nerfed in to the ground.

The main issue is bow/bow builds feel so simple. They need more identity, not more dps.

Marshall1289 wrote: »

I just went to the pts to do this. Show spoiler for more details:

Obviously you should do more than 1 parse honestly my Bow/Bow parse had some higher than avg crits on the bigger skills, but bows are a ranged weapon. Why do they parse so similarly with DW, on top of it, we have the spider Synergy.

Even without the Spiders, bows are very much viable and don't need any buffs whatsoever. The sustain is easier because you don't need to cast beast and the rotation is easier. If I had someone providing major fracture I wouldn't even bother using Shalks for single target dps.

The only thing I switched between these 2 builds is Tzogvin's Warband for bow/bow to Advancing Yokeda for bow/dw.

Jewelry all infused WPD.

Tzogvin's Warband Bow Nirn Absorb Sta.
Advancing Yokeda Daggers Nirn Absorb Sta/Sharpened Poison

CP remained the same, putting the bow/dw build only 111 pen behind the bow/bow build. I figured this was fair considering the extra crit Advancing Yokeda has and there was no way to fix that.

My bow/bow parse within melee range of target, so don't say it was long shot passive.

Someone better than me could pull 50k+ dps for the both of them consistently.

While solo buffed I agree they are indeed pretty close. I think you will find that as you stack group buffs the gap widens a bit between Bow/Bow and DW/Bow.

A big part of high end dps in trials is execute damage and Bow/Bow just doesn't have the options of DW/Bow there. Also Hawkeye as a percentage damage buff becomes less and less valuable as you stack more percentage modifiers, where as the higher base weapon damage of DW does not diminish in value.

I do think they could reduce the synergy value a bit without destroying the benefit. I just want to point out that there is a difference in performance when you consider competitive play. Outside of organized group buffs stam DK doesn't appear to be so bad, when you start pushing those buffs it drops behind.

The 15% execute modifier on dw is nice but not a big enough deal as it only applies to dual wield abilities execute damage is only available to stamBlade and StamDen through the bear for Stam anyways so yes that is a reason that stamBlades have dominated, it is not a point for DW/Bow vs Bow/Bow unless I guess talking about stamBlade.

The extra weapon damage is more than made up for with bow hawk eye. They are both fine choices, but if or when spiders are nerfed then it would be back to melee Stamina when able as it provides just a little more and perhaps bow/bow when ranged or just mag lol...

I really think melee centered classes like magPlar with jabs and magDK should be on par with stamina and bow/bow should be on par with mag at range. It really should be plug and play with the classes with lesser sustain and harder rotation at the top and higher sustain with easier rotation at the bottom. But not a huge separation and not a brain dead rotation either like pet sorc heavy attack or something such.

You are not considering how the value diminishes.

Lets say 100 weapon damage increases your output by X percentage, then adding more percentage modifiers

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Wait a moment. Who determines the damage of a synergy -- the person who casts the skill or the one who grabs the synergy?

I thought it was the latter. But in that case spiders would fit any ranged build. Was I wrong?

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Wait a moment. Who determines the damage of a synergy -- the person who casts the skill or the one who grabs the synergy?

I thought it was the latter. But in that case spiders would fit any ranged build. Was I wrong?

It's whoever grabs the synergy, but it scales with stam significantly better than mag. Tested with my small group of friends and mag builds averaged about 1.5k dps from the synergy, where as stam grabbed 7-10k. This was done purely looking at synergy damage outside of a rotation or group buffs.

If I understand you correctly, ranged magicka builds should consider slotting spiders whenever there are enough stamina DDs around.

You have to be 12m away which makes it annoying for melee to run out to get. There are of course fight mechanics where melee will have to run somewhere anyways and they could use the synergy on the way or the way back.

As far as magicka running it generally thats not a great option. Many magicka builds struggle for bar space as it is and need their small stam pool to break free. It is better for a healer/tank to run it, or to have two ranged stam dps trade off synergies with each other.

The important thing is that its way better damage for stam to synergize so magicka should avoid taking the synergy if they see it unless they know no stam will be able to use it.

You can get it in melee just fine on any fight with adds, there is a trick with how to do it. How the synergy works is that as long as it goes on a target that is 12 meters from you, you can activate the synergy. However the spiders attack which ever target you are looking at, so if there is an add 12 meters away and a tank throws the synergy on him, you get the prompt and you are looking at the boss, the spiders will spawn and go attack the boss.
Here is an example:

https://youtu.be/XaA83rPPS5Y

If you look at my parse I had 2 spider synergy procs in that fight

I'm familiar with how it works as far as the spiders popping up not on whatever is in the AOE but rather whatever your targeting reticle is hovering over when you use the synergy. I just haven't found others placement of it reliable enough to even consider using it in the manner you describe. I'm not saying it's not completely doable, I just think most players/groups aren't going to provide you with that synergy in all the ways you could truly maximize it. Often I'm calling for the synergy and they don't throw it until I dip into melee range then its thrown at my feet and I have to run back out. I probably could have been more complete in my response however.

We dont call for it in our runs, the tanks place the adds in such a manner where we always get synergy and they throw them nearly on cooldown

hedna123b14_ESO

Ramber wrote: »

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

Bow/Bow Stam Sorc has one of the highest parses recorded since Wrathstone launched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tOg5dlh7ds

*ahem* not alone its not, try it self buffed my good man everyone is posting ext buffed parses these days what the heck happened... lava foot food, shards and orbs lol you might as well just writ it in instead of doing anything.

Raid parses:
https://youtu.be/y6gXSvnOGTg

https://youtu.be/-4gYR-Af_z4