The problem is not with cloak it is with stamblade

Ragnaroek93

Yeah, let's remove a core ability from the class. You have no idea about what you are talking about, just the usual nonsense from people who don't play the class, you don't even understand what makes Cloak strong on Nb.
Why am I not surprised that the removal of minor berserc, Incap nerf and maybe a nerf to Surprise Attack is enough for the Nb haters to shut up? Stamnb is apparantly only balanced if it doesn't have the defense tools to avoid dieing and if it doesn't have the damage to kill anything. Let's remove shields and block healing as well...

Nerftheforums

dazee wrote: »

Stamblade being able to cloak is not a problem. Stamblade cannot sustain cloak indefinitely like magblade. if there is a problem with cloak its magblades. Learn to counter cloak dont whine and demand fun be removed from the game for your pleasure.

With the simple use of shackle and a pot you can cloak 15 times in a row. FIFTEEN TIMES IN A ROW

TheBonesXXX

Knootewoot wrote: »

Maybe it is stamina/medium armor that needs a nerf.

What build do you see the most, regarding of class?

2-handed, bow, vigor and dodge roll and probably medium armor but could be heavy (it's the costumes, one can't tell)

Instead of nerfing class identifying skills, just nerf stamina. The class identifying skills only become OP on stamina build.

GOOOOOOOOO swing the nerf bat around yeyeye, I'm at work today boohoo

I think it's crit scaling personally, the fact there's no trade-off to white damage and crits astound me.

kalunte

the very problem with cloak is that the spells that are supposed to counter it are too weak, or unreliable which makes every single players who hates nightblades (even more bowblades like me), and i know you guys are a lot, i get insulted daily... , to aoe over and over and over.

such builds can be fun and strong, but the fact that there is no other way to do is pretty annoying.


i think that making all detecting spells to last 10sec could help.

magelight could have its passives to be effective on both bars while slotted in only one. increased dmg on revealed stealths should be removed tho. 10sec of +20% dmg would be unfair.

lingering flare could cost less, do little dmg on use in both morphs and inflict minor breach.

expert hunter could be changed to more reliably mark a target, have its passive effect on both bars while sloted in only one (like magelight could) and inflict minor fracture.
i imagine a skill like: "improve your ability to chase your target for 5sec making your lights and heavy attacks to mark your target for 5seconds, preventing them to go back to the shadows".


Another idea would be to had the increased spell cost if spamed like dodge and streak already have.


ps: is something can be done in the effectiveness of proper detective spells, perhaps something could be done to prevent braindead-aoe-spammers to spot invisible ppl "almost" randomly...

psychotic13

Cloak combined with shade is whats strong.

Imo cloak should have a cost increase, like streak.
But it should only increase the cost if you cast it within like 2.5 seconds of it being initially cast. Cloak lasts 3 seconds so good nightblades who can use cloak and get the full duration wont be affected, but nightblades who spam it will run themselves out of magicka.

But firstly, is it just me or does the light attack weave with surprise attack just not go off half the time?

laissezfaire

I think the main problem with cloak is the ability to move from cloak to sneak. Now, I have *no problem with an invisibility skill lasting 3 secs but then going into sneak as a vamp from cloak is what makes stamNB broken. Make it so that after cloak, someone cannot enter sneak for 10 secs or something. And then likewise, if you were in sneak, you cannot use cloak for 10 secs after leaving sneak.

Lucky28

psychotic13 wrote: »

Cloak combined with shade is whats strong.

Imo cloak should have a cost increase, like streak.
But it should only increase the cost if you cast it within like 2.5 seconds of it being initially cast. Cloak lasts 3 seconds so good nightblades who can use cloak and get the full duration wont be affected, but nightblades who spam it will run themselves out of magicka.

But firstly, is it just me or does the light attack weave with surprise attack just not go off half the time?

No it shouldn't have a stacking cost increase. it's only mildly acceptable on sorc because sorc has streak plus shield stack, NB has Claok period. Magblade doesn't even have cloak plus heals, just cloak. a stacking cost increase would be detrimental to the class.

RedBirdrude

I'm an alt-oholic and have spent almost all my played time in imp sewers, resource towers or BGs.

90% of the time I will pull NB's out of stealth if I'm actively engaging one, regardless if they are stam or mag.

On occasion I'll get faked out; props to them.

It's not even funny how easy it is to deny NB's stealth/cloak on my Stamsorc. I don't feel that it's tremendously difficult on any other class except maybe my 2h/bow stam warden.

I can get frustrated by cloaked snipes open field, but if I don't die from some dysnced lethal arrow BS guess what? Gonna clam up, pop some big daddy D and find LOS.

If I'm solo roaming and get gxnged up on by 2-3 decent NB gankers, yeah I'm probs gonna die but not from cloak and roll spam.

Just my humble opinion that cloak & stamblades are not a huge issues. PvP lag & glitches is OP right meow.

technohic

I'd just block out healing when cloaked but then add in "while cloaked you heal for a maximum of X health" then have that scale off magicka. Or make it an opposite of templars POTL and be "while cloaked, you absorb all healing and release 20% of copied healing when you leave cloak for a maximum of X" and have it scale of magicka. Then give magblade back some healing

Mayrael

Lolol what do you expect in this thread? Most played cheese class defenders will flood it and say stamblade is ok. LOL. Let's see. Magblades can cloak infinitely yet are one of the squishiest and easiest to kill classes in the game. Stamblades can cloak from time to time yet they are one of the hardest classes to kill.

Possible solution:
Double cost of cloak after roll dodge for 4s.

Magblades will handle it without any issues while stambleds will have to be more tactical when to use cloak and when to roll dodge.

HowlKimchi

While I agree that stamblade is overpowered and magblade is underpowered. It DOES NOT lie with cloak, and removing stamblade's access to cloak is THE WORST possible way of balancing them. You don't destroy a class archetype for the sake of balance, you find a way to balance them while retaining class flavor

Iskiab

If you spec all damage then you think stamblade is OP. They’re better at it.

I’d you use your self healing you think stamblade is underpowered. It’s lower survivability then other classes, and cloak can be countered.

psychotic13

Lucky28 wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Cloak combined with shade is whats strong.

Imo cloak should have a cost increase, like streak.
But it should only increase the cost if you cast it within like 2.5 seconds of it being initially cast. Cloak lasts 3 seconds so good nightblades who can use cloak and get the full duration wont be affected, but nightblades who spam it will run themselves out of magicka.

But firstly, is it just me or does the light attack weave with surprise attack just not go off half the time?

No it shoudln't have a stacking cost increase. it's only mildly acceptable on sorc because sorc has streak plus shield stack, NB has Claok period. Magblade doesn't even have cloak plus heals, just cloak. a stacking cost increase would be detrimental to the class.

No it wouldnt, it would be detrimental to terrible nightblades. I play nightblade theyre insane, well stamNB is atleast, magnb is kind of weak i agree, but thats since shield changes. They could do with something to compensate them.

Having streak and shield is irrelevent? Like saying nb has shade and cloak... means nothing.

psychotic13

mursie wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Lolol what do you expect in this thread? Most played cheese class defenders will flood it and say stamblade is ok. LOL. Let's see. Magblades can cloak infinitely yet are one of the squishiest and easiest to kill classes in the game. Stamblades can cloak from time to time yet they are one of the hardest classes to kill.

Possible solution:
Double cost of cloak after roll dodge for 4s.

Magblades will handle it without any issues while stambleds will have to be more tactical when to use cloak and when to roll dodge.

you honestly don't know what you're talking about. try playing a mag and stam blade in pvp battlegrounds and sotha sil before rambling on these boards. everyone would benefit from that. mostly you.

How is he wrong? Stop acting like a child.

MagNB is far behind StamNB, not the exact change id make personally, but on the same lines nerfin cloak only slightly so it effects the stamNB more than magNB.

Lucky28

psychotic13 wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Cloak combined with shade is whats strong.

Imo cloak should have a cost increase, like streak.
But it should only increase the cost if you cast it within like 2.5 seconds of it being initially cast. Cloak lasts 3 seconds so good nightblades who can use cloak and get the full duration wont be affected, but nightblades who spam it will run themselves out of magicka.

But firstly, is it just me or does the light attack weave with surprise attack just not go off half the time?

No it shoudln't have a stacking cost increase. it's only mildly acceptable on sorc because sorc has streak plus shield stack, NB has Claok period. Magblade doesn't even have cloak plus heals, just cloak. a stacking cost increase would be detrimental to the class.

No it wouldnt, it would be detrimental to terrible nightblades. I play nightblade theyre insane, well stamNB is atleast, magnb is kind of weak i agree, but thats since shield changes. They could do with something to compensate them.

Having streak and shield is irrelevent? Like saying nb has shade and cloak... means nothing.

That Argument is outdated. I would have agreed in that past that only bad NB's would be affected by a nerf to cloak but Mag NB has been gutted to the point where we don't have heals, we don't have good defenses and we barely have damage outside of bombing. a nerf to cloak would be the death of Magblade at this point. And it was more than just shield changes, it was nerfs to healing ward, swallow soul, refreshing path, Offering and Merciless. magblade got hit on every front imaginable.

and it wasn't irrelevant at the time. having 40K+ shield stack plus infinite streak was way over the top, meanwhile Shade has limitations. it's not the same at all. even then though, i don't like the stacking cost increase never did.

mursie

psychotic13 wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Lolol what do you expect in this thread? Most played cheese class defenders will flood it and say stamblade is ok. LOL. Let's see. Magblades can cloak infinitely yet are one of the squishiest and easiest to kill classes in the game. Stamblades can cloak from time to time yet they are one of the hardest classes to kill.

Possible solution:
Double cost of cloak after roll dodge for 4s.

Magblades will handle it without any issues while stambleds will have to be more tactical when to use cloak and when to roll dodge.

you honestly don't know what you're talking about. try playing a mag and stam blade in pvp battlegrounds and sotha sil before rambling on these boards. everyone would benefit from that. mostly you.

How is he wrong? Stop acting like a child.

MagNB is far behind StamNB, not the exact change id make personally, but on the same lines nerfin cloak only slightly so it effects the stamNB more than magNB.

i play both. in pvp. i could not disagree more with your comments. hence my original comment.

try playing the classes first in pvp before speaking about them. it would help everyone. mostly you. comment still stands.

psychotic13

mursie wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Lolol what do you expect in this thread? Most played cheese class defenders will flood it and say stamblade is ok. LOL. Let's see. Magblades can cloak infinitely yet are one of the squishiest and easiest to kill classes in the game. Stamblades can cloak from time to time yet they are one of the hardest classes to kill.

Possible solution:
Double cost of cloak after roll dodge for 4s.

Magblades will handle it without any issues while stambleds will have to be more tactical when to use cloak and when to roll dodge.

you honestly don't know what you're talking about. try playing a mag and stam blade in pvp battlegrounds and sotha sil before rambling on these boards. everyone would benefit from that. mostly you.

How is he wrong? Stop acting like a child.

MagNB is far behind StamNB, not the exact change id make personally, but on the same lines nerfin cloak only slightly so it effects the stamNB more than magNB.

i play both. in pvp. i could not disagree more with your comments. hence my original comment.

try playing the classes first in pvp before speaking about them. it would help everyone. mostly you. comment still stands.

No you told the first guy that he should play both mag and stam before rambling and that everyone would benefit, mostly him.

And now you've said exactly the same thing without saying literally anything constructive.

Youre naive if you think people havent tried both, dont be so arrogant and wind your neck in.

Mayrael

mursie wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Lolol what do you expect in this thread? Most played cheese class defenders will flood it and say stamblade is ok. LOL. Let's see. Magblades can cloak infinitely yet are one of the squishiest and easiest to kill classes in the game. Stamblades can cloak from time to time yet they are one of the hardest classes to kill.

Possible solution:
Double cost of cloak after roll dodge for 4s.

Magblades will handle it without any issues while stambleds will have to be more tactical when to use cloak and when to roll dodge.

you honestly don't know what you're talking about. try playing a mag and stam blade in pvp battlegrounds and sotha sil before rambling on these boards. everyone would benefit from that. mostly you.

How is he wrong? Stop acting like a child.

MagNB is far behind StamNB, not the exact change id make personally, but on the same lines nerfin cloak only slightly so it effects the stamNB more than magNB.

i play both. in pvp. i could not disagree more with your comments. hence my original comment.

try playing the classes first in pvp before speaking about them. it would help everyone. mostly you. comment still stands.

Mate I played NB stamina, magicka and even hybrid ones long before you even been here. Give some arguments to prove your point or get out.

jaime1982

Just make it cost more if your main stat pool is stamina. Mag nb wont be hurt by that.

Alucardo

Fought a stamblade last night using vigor, dark cloak, and troll king to bulk himself up while still dealing OP damage thanks to medium armor and the NB abilities/passives. The problem definitely isn't cloak - they don't even need it.
Their entire class is built around damage and sustain, so they can wear pretty much any set and still be effective. Dark Cloak is completely underrated by a lot of stamblades. With such high health this update, Dark Cloak is like another vigor ticking in the background with minor protection attached to it.
And because nb is such a well designed class, you actually get an additional 3% max health for every shadow ability slotted.

I feel like Zeni put more thought into Nightblade than they did with any other. I don't think NBs are too OP, I think they were just nourished better and given more attention.

Lord-Otto

Alucardo wrote: »

Fought a stamblade last night using vigor, dark cloak, and troll king to bulk himself up while still dealing OP damage thanks to medium armor and the NB abilities/passives. The problem definitely isn't cloak - they don't even need it.
Their entire class is built around damage and sustain, so they can wear pretty much any set and still be effective. Dark Cloak is completely underrated by a lot of stamblades. With such high health this update, Dark Cloak is like another vigor ticking in the background with minor protection attached to it.
And because nb is such a well designed class, you actually get an additional 3% max health for every shadow ability slotted.

I feel like Zeni put more thought into Nightblade than they did with any other. I don't think NBs are too OP, I think they were just nourished better and given more attention.

They are the ONLY class without limitations. Used to be they lacked burst heals, but Vigor and Dark Cloak are bursty enough. And unlike other classes, they got pretty much everything else, and most of it for free as a skill side effect or a passive.

NBs should be the blueprint for all classes. They are fun, always competitive (and often OP) and generally liked by the players. Well, the ones playing them. Stamblade damage or Cloak is just the topping. If all classes were like that, balancing PvP would be much less of a nightmare. With every class fully functional and versatile, who cares about a bit of damage loss here and there?

Victor_Blade

Zos could just increase the cost of cloak and make it conditional. Make it cost 6400 magicka but it's cost is reduced by 50% when you're wearing 5 pieces of light armour or when your magicka pool is more than your stamina pool. This could work ig

Edit: typos

mursie

Mayrael wrote: »

[

Mate I played NB stamina, magicka and even hybrid ones long before you even been here. Give some arguments to prove your point or get out.

i only need one argument. that you are here crying about magblade underperformance relative to stam. if you played both, and knew what you were doing, that wouldn't be a comment you would type on these boards. it is the single piece of evidence for argument that I need to confidently tell you to go play the class before speaking again about it.

in battleground pvp, magblades have nearly infinite cloak sustain due to the large magicka pool. as a result, they can almost entirely ensure they enter combat at their discretion even when quick movements and aoe clusters alter that timing a few seconds... they simply recloak. I can, and have as recently as two days ago, go 35+ - 0 in a battlegrounds on a magblade.

The same can't be said about stamblades in battleground pvp. precisely due to the lack of infinite cloak sustain. they can't produce the same level of kills as the magblade because they spend to much time trying to find perfect windows of engagement with a limited magicka pool, often having to entirely bail and regen resources and look again for a perfect window within a 3 to 4 successive cloak window.

battlegrounds are aoe ball group clusters. nb's excel at ganking stragglers. separating and isolating individuals into mini 1v1 fights. the magblade can do it better in a battleground because they can utilize cloak more often and find those opportunities easier because of that sustain. period.

you would know this and understand this - if you actually played both classes in battleground pvp. my original comment, which STILL stands.

so - do us all a favor,
play both classes,
IN PVP,
and refrain from speaking here until such time that you understand the topic you are whining about.

HowlKimchi

mursie wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

[

Mate I played NB stamina, magicka and even hybrid ones long before you even been here. Give some arguments to prove your point or get out.

i only need one argument. that you are here crying about magblade underperformance relative to stam. if you played both, and knew what you were doing, that wouldn't be a comment you would type on these boards. it is the single piece of evidence for argument that I need to confidently tell you to go play the class before speaking again about it.

in battleground pvp, magblades have nearly infinite cloak sustain due to the large magicka pool. as a result, they can almost entirely ensure they enter combat at their discretion even when quick movements and aoe clusters alter that timing a few seconds... they simply recloak. I can, and have as recently as two days ago, go 35+ - 0 in a battlegrounds on a magblade.

The same can't be said about stamblades in battleground pvp. precisely due to the lack of infinite cloak sustain. they can't produce the same level of kills as the magblade because they spend to much time trying to find perfect windows of engagement with a limited magicka pool, often having to entirely bail and regen resources and look again for a perfect window within a 3 to 4 successive cloak window.

battlegrounds are aoe ball group clusters. nb's excel at ganking stragglers. separating and isolating individuals into mini 1v1 fights. the magblade can do it better in a battleground because they can utilize cloak more often and find those opportunities easier because of that sustain. period.

you would know this and understand this - if you actually played both classes in battleground pvp. my original comment, which STILL stands.

so - do us all a favor,
play both classes,
IN PVP,
and refrain from speaking here until such time that you understand the topic you are whining about.

I play stamblade and magblade extensively and I'm here to tell you that im of the opinion that stamblade is performing better and that magblade needs buffs. My thoughts below.

Both have very high killing potential, but stamblades burst is easier to pulloff because he has access to a front loaded burst combo. Magblade also has lethal burst, but is more backloaded because his only burst is attainable only after you do 5 light attacks. The heavy armor bleed variation of stamblades also has decent burst while having high pressure.

Knowing this, I have no problem with Magblade's offense. Reflects are pretty nasty though, but that's for another discussion.

The area I want magblades to get buffed in is the defensive/mobility area. The key to being successful with cloak against a lot of people is that you have to make space first before casting cloak to ensure you dont get revealed just as quickly.

To compare: stamblades built right have access to cloak on demand, not perma cloak levels, but available when needed. They make space for cloak with snare removal via shuffle/forward momentum, and reliable self heals. Not to mention they can roll for days. Magblades have shade, which is godly when you have it down, and you're a reasonable distance away from it. It's pretty situational but very effective. Other than that, magblades lack snare removal and a decent self heal. They can only roll 2-3 times before running stam dry as well. Magblade definitely needs a minor bump in the defense department.

As for heavy bleed stamblades using the heal morph of the cloak... Well, they're tanky as *** while having access to shade.


I also want to focus on something you said:

mursie wrote: »

The same can't be said about stamblades in battleground pvp. precisely due to the lack of infinite cloak sustain. they can't produce the same level of kills as the magblade because they spend to much time trying to find perfect windows of engagement with a limited magicka pool, often having to entirely bail and regen resources and look again for a perfect window within a 3 to 4 successive cloak window.

With this statement, is seems that you are relying on cloak too much and your build isn't made to take a few hits. Getting offensive windows on a stamblade shouldn't be that hard because of the quick burst it has, rolls, and the 1 or 2 cloaks needed after engaging.

blkjag

Gaggin wrote: »

You could always slot one of the dozens of counters to cloak.

This

sharquez

The problem is the endless whining about dying.

mursie

HaruKamui wrote: »

Both have very high killing potential, but stamblades burst is easier to pulloff because he has access to a front loaded burst combo. Magblade also has lethal burst, but is more backloaded because his only burst is attainable only after you do 5 light attacks. The heavy armor bleed variation of stamblades also has decent burst while having high pressure.

you won't find a higher front loaded burst than a from stealth, primed elemental weapon, light attack concealed weapon combo with caluurion legacy firing and soul harvest follow up. So no, i do not agree with your comment above. the front loaded burst of my magblade absolutely destroys the front loaded burst of my stamblade.. and it's not even close.

as to building the stamblade wrong... it's pretty simple. shacklebreaker for the highest stat density you can get in no-cp for sustain and magicka/stamina pools paired with a dmg set of your choice.. for me - spriggans. paired with bloodspawn.

that's pretty cookie cutter build and it still will get squashed in bg's with the aoe cluster of blockade of frost, caltrops, sub assault, steel tornado, dawn breaker, permafrost, hurricane, etc...

besides your point confirms what i'm saying: you believe stamblade has higher FRONT LOADED burst...because that's how u secure kills .. quick, front loaded, strategic kills. i already told you that magblade is better at that very thing..and it has higher magicka pools to sustain infinite cloak to ensure it opens on exactly the target it wants..securing very high kill counts. stam blade can not do this.

if you want to roll around and take hits out of stealth - be my guest.. you'll die in bg's with decent comp. or - you will spend most of your time avoiding dmg and killing nothing...waiting around to find an opportunity. instead - on my magblade.. i can stay in cloak and secure the kill i need.

Iskiab

You guys are discussing which class has the best burst from stealth. That’s like discussing which class has the prettiest outfit or looks the coolest in 99% of pvp content.

Any class/spec that’s built for 1v1 ganking isn’t effective in battlegrounds. It’s not effective in any group setting. It’s a solo spec.

You guys are arguing over who gets to drive the short bus. If that’s your thing then okay, but you can’t balance a class around it.

Insco851

mursie wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

Both have very high killing potential, but stamblades burst is easier to pulloff because he has access to a front loaded burst combo. Magblade also has lethal burst, but is more backloaded because his only burst is attainable only after you do 5 light attacks. The heavy armor bleed variation of stamblades also has decent burst while having high pressure.

you won't find a higher front loaded burst than a from stealth, primed elemental weapon, light attack concealed weapon combo with caluurion legacy firing and soul harvest follow up. So no, i do not agree with your comment above. the front loaded burst of my magblade absolutely destroys the front loaded burst of my stamblade.. and it's not even close.

as to building the stamblade wrong... it's pretty simple. shacklebreaker for the highest stat density you can get in no-cp for sustain and magicka/stamina pools paired with a dmg set of your choice.. for me - spriggans. paired with bloodspawn.

that's pretty cookie cutter build and it still will get squashed in bg's with the aoe cluster of blockade of frost, caltrops, sub assault, steel tornado, dawn breaker, permafrost, hurricane, etc...

besides your point confirms what i'm saying: you believe stamblade has higher FRONT LOADED burst...because that's how u secure kills .. quick, front loaded, strategic kills. i already told you that magblade is better at that very thing..and it has higher magicka pools to sustain infinite cloak to ensure it opens on exactly the target it wants..securing very high kill counts. stam blade can not do this.

if you want to roll around and take hits out of stealth - be my guest.. you'll die in bg's with decent comp. or - you will spend most of your time avoiding dmg and killing nothing...waiting around to find an opportunity. instead - on my magblade.. i can stay in cloak and secure the kill i need.

So gank or nothing huh. Lol

What if you don’t want to gank? Or wear caalurions? That doesn’t seem like a MNB specific skill...

Surprise attack vs Caalurions!

Go!

Strider__Roshin

"Magblades hit like a wet Noodle" is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard.