The problem is not with cloak it is with stamblade

LegacyDM

Remove stamblades ability to cloak. I don’t know how but Problem solved. Zos is in a bind because here is a case where the Stam/magicka skill split and morphs did not work. Let’s analyze the two classes: stamblade vs mage blade.

Stamina has access to higher burst, dodge rolls, medium armor, vigor and cloak. There is absolutely no reason they should get access to both cloak and the ability to dodge roll at adnuseum. They are already one of the most mobile classes in the game. Bow blades can just cloak from range and pop 100% crit. Dual wielders/two ganders can just dodgeroll until they can cloak away. We all know that stamblades are slippery, even more so than mageblades.

Let’s look at mageblade.

Mageblade hits like a wet noodle, no dependent access to dodge rolls, relies on light armor, and healing ward for defense and heals. Mageblade spams cloak to survive without access to constant dodge rolls. Mist form and shade can be used but shade is clunky and mist Form is niche with other draw backs.

Many people are calling for cloak nerf. Cloak is fine for a mageblade but is OP for a stamblade. Combined with their toolkit it makes them too mobile. If you nerf cloak mageblade will be killed. Mageblade will have nothing that defines it as a stealth magicka based class or a real defense. Might as well call it a lesser sorc.

I don’t know how to fix this and I’d guess zos doesn’t know either. Without revamping how Stam/magicka skills and morphs work.

Zos is data driven. I hope that As long as the data shows that mageblade is one of the least played classes in pvp they are not likely to nerf cloak. If they nerf cloak they need to provide a better trade off compared to stamblade or even sorcs.

I see a lot of posts and people raging st cloak but context is important and understanding how it works amongst the two different classes and play styles is important. Raging for nerf across the board has impact for both classes/play styles not just one.

dazee

Stamblade being able to cloak is not a problem. Stamblade cannot sustain cloak indefinitely like magblade. if there is a problem with cloak its magblades. Learn to counter cloak dont whine and demand fun be removed from the game for your pleasure.

frostz417

Mageblades needs defensive buffs and change it so all their abilities aren’t projectiles. This needs to be done without indirectly and accidentally buffing stamblade.
Too many times has magblade suffered from either attempted nerfs to stamblades or attempting to buff magblade only to make stamblade stronger.
Stamblades can get shafted for all I care. Every class has been gutted (Templars in homestead&morrowind, DK’s in imperial city and dragon bones, sorcs in murkmire, and magden in horns of the reach&clock work city)
StamNB has never gotten the shaft and once they do it’ll be so beautiful.

dazee

If you dont care if stamblades get shafted then you dont play stamblades and dont have an opinion on them worth listening to at all.

Stamblades are also getting nerfed in the dps department in Elsweyr so stop whining and thank ZOS for it.

Gilvoth

dazee wrote: »

Stamblade being able to cloak is not a problem. Stamblade cannot sustain cloak indefinitely like magblade. if there is a problem with cloak its magblades. Learn to counter cloak dont whine and demand fun be removed from the game for your pleasure.

exactly
well said

in addition:
there is nothing wrong with stealth, cloak, and invisibility.
nightblade class is allready balanced and is doing the same as the other classes.
the developers already made it balanced.
nightblade and stealth and invisibility doesn't need rebuilt.
nightblade and stealth and invisibility does not need nerfed.
please stop making nerf and rebuild skills threads, it is destroying balance and causing stress for people totally unnecessary.
the developers already built and balanced what skills are in eso, and they keep working on them because its their career and Job and they are doing a great job.
let them do that work and lets go play eso instead of making these threads insinuating that eso is broken, insinuating that the skills in eso and the balance in eso is broken, because its fine as it is.
when there is a need for nerfs, they do them. please stop encouraging it.

all this thread is, is a Nerf nightblade, nerf cloak, and Dream destroy cloak and nightblade revenge request thread.

Brian Wheeler has been promoted to working on class balance. he is perfect for the job and hes very intelligent, he has zero need of being headed in the right direction like you suggested.
let the devs do what they do best andlets play eso instead of making hundreds of threads asking for nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs nerfs.
please stop making these type of threads.

dazee

I would disagree with ZOS doing a great job on balance but I don't think cloak is as big a problem as people say it is, especially given the fact the OP is complaining about it on STAMBLADES lol, bruh I can cloak maybe 3 times on stamblade before my magicka is GONE and I need to stay visible for 30 more seconds. and cloak lasts at most 3 seconds.

ZOS needs to prioritize balancing things like endless hail so not every stam dps and its mother has to use bow.

LegacyDM

dazee wrote: »

Stamblade being able to cloak is not a problem. Stamblade cannot sustain cloak indefinitely like magblade. if there is a problem with cloak its magblades. Learn to counter cloak dont whine and demand fun be removed from the game for your pleasure.

dazee wrote: »

If you dont care if stamblades get shafted then you dont play stamblades and dont have an opinion on them worth listening to at all.

Stamblades are also getting nerfed in the dps department in Elsweyr so stop whining and thank ZOS for it.

Alright man. My post is not whining. Sorry if you interpreted it that way. It’s called class balancing not whining. I understand the counters. There are a lot. Even with the counters stamblades are slippery. Yes you can’t spam cloak but you can spam dodge rolls and with a well timed cloak or 2 you can start the dodge roll spam cycle all over again until cloak gets you into safety. Mageblades don’t have that luxury.

My point was to educate the community that cloak is fair for mageblades. The real problem is all the perks stamblades get in comparison.

LegacyDM

dazee wrote: »

If you dont care if stamblades get shafted then you dont play stamblades and dont have an opinion on them worth listening to at all.

Stamblades are also getting nerfed in the dps department in Elsweyr so stop whining and thank ZOS for it.

Lol so are mageblades? What’s your point?

ChunkyCat

If your magblade hits like a wet noodle, then you’re magblading wrong. Every class has the potential to hit hard.

LegacyDM

ChunkyCat wrote: »

If your magblade hits like a wet noodle, then you’re magblading wrong. Every class has the potential to hit hard.

It’s relative. Compared to stamina based two handers, or bow classes it’s significsntly less. Yeah hits like a noodle compared to what one can do with a stam toon in any class.or even compared to what a magesorc can do in pvp.

LordTareq

ChunkyCat wrote: »

If your magblade hits like a wet noodle, then you’re magblading wrong. Every class has the potential to hit hard.

Melee magblade has the 'issue' that its melee weapon is stamina/weapon damage based while its abilities are magicka. While they can get comparable ability tooltip damage to stamblades, light/heavy/bash attacks deal 50% or so less damage which considering the substantial damage contribution of light attack means they deal 20% or so less overall damage than their stamina counterparts. Also, (while a minor thing) heavy attacks restore the wrong resource.

Lucky28

dazee wrote: »

Stamblade being able to cloak is not a problem. Stamblade cannot sustain cloak indefinitely like magblade. if there is a problem with cloak its magblades. Learn to counter cloak dont whine and demand fun be removed from the game for your pleasure.

No it's not. the thing that makes cloak seem OP is snare immunity Stamblade has access to better sources of snare immunity than magblade does. it's a problem that doesn't really have a ready solution. Cloak is weird like that, alone cloak is not great but with shades set up in advance or snare immunity an NB can be really hard to shut down.

dazee

Doesn't justify making stamblades unable to use the skill which already has NO stamina morph. Stamblades die in pvp when something looks at them. Cloak is their only real survival tool. and its also a DEFINING FEATURE of the nightblade class. STEALTH.

frostz417

dazee wrote: »

If you dont care if stamblades get shafted then you dont play stamblades and dont have an opinion on them worth listening to at all.

Stamblades are also getting nerfed in the dps department in Elsweyr so stop whining and thank ZOS for it.

Played stamblade for a couple of years along with other classes. Class is a complete joke. Requires no thumbs to play PvP and pve. It deserves a nerf. Dont be mad your carry class is finally being placed inline with others

Gaggin

You could always slot one of the dozens of counters to cloak.

dazee

frostz417 wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

If you dont care if stamblades get shafted then you dont play stamblades and dont have an opinion on them worth listening to at all.

Stamblades are also getting nerfed in the dps department in Elsweyr so stop whining and thank ZOS for it.

Played stamblade for a couple of years along with other classes. Class is a complete joke. Requires no thumbs to play PvP and pve. It deserves a nerf. Dont be mad your carry class is finally being placed inline with others

By removing cloak? HAHAHHHAHAA nice troll. BTW I have like one stamblade alt I barely play. does that make it "MY" class?

I am just sick of the nerf herders destroying the last semblance of fun and enjoyment I get from classes.

Vapirko

dazee wrote: »

Stamblade being able to cloak is not a problem. Stamblade cannot sustain cloak indefinitely like magblade. if there is a problem with cloak its magblades. Learn to counter cloak dont whine and demand fun be removed from the game for your pleasure.

This is wrong. A well built Stam blade can cloak almost at any time and more than often enough to constantly reset a fight. Cloak is just a problem overall and I agree with OP that it presents a real issue that it is almost the only form of survival available to Magblades at this time while its an OP skill on stamblades. But if medium armor stamblades don’t use cloak their ward buff falls off too quickly and they’re dead. It’s a skill that’s both too good and terrible at the same time. It begs constant use and yet is OP on stamblades when used as such. As I’ve said before I think ZOS has dug themselves into a pit. Other classes have slowsly been stripped of their unique and powerful class skills for the most part while stamblades has been left intact by comparison. Now they have no choice but to homgeonize them by reducing cloak and single target damage but increase there survivability like every other Stamina class.

dazee

oh please. I've played NB in pvp and its terrible. theres NOTHING OP about cloak on a NB. unless "Well built" means stacking magicka and magicka regen to a degree entirely detrimental to stam damage. stop demanding nerfs, and enjoy the game. ask for more good counters or use the ones we ALREADY HAVE.

I've almost never been killed becuase of cloak. if I'm killed in pvp its usually a knock/CC spike damage combo.

frostz417

dazee wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

If you dont care if stamblades get shafted then you dont play stamblades and dont have an opinion on them worth listening to at all.

Stamblades are also getting nerfed in the dps department in Elsweyr so stop whining and thank ZOS for it.

Played stamblade for a couple of years along with other classes. Class is a complete joke. Requires no thumbs to play PvP and pve. It deserves a nerf. Dont be mad your carry class is finally being placed inline with others

By removing cloak? HAHAHHHAHAA nice troll. BTW I have like one stamblade alt I barely play. does that make it "MY" class?

I am just sick of the nerf herders destroying the last semblance of fun and enjoyment I get from classes.

Nope. Cloak isn’t the reason stamblade is OP. Cloak has its counters and the ability itself isn’t even Op. Zos said nothing about removing cloak, and they shouldn’t

frostz417

dazee wrote: »

oh please. I've played NB in pvp and its terrible. theres NOTHING OP about cloak on a NB. unless "Well built" means stacking magicka and magicka regen to a degree entirely detrimental to stam damage. stop demanding nerfs, and enjoy the game. ask for more good counters or use the ones we ALREADY HAVE.

I've almost never been killed becuase of cloak. if I'm killed in pvp its usually a knock/CC spike damage combo.

Also if you think stamblade is terrible in PvP you don’t know anything about PvP

dazee

frostz417 wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

oh please. I've played NB in pvp and its terrible. theres NOTHING OP about cloak on a NB. unless "Well built" means stacking magicka and magicka regen to a degree entirely detrimental to stam damage. stop demanding nerfs, and enjoy the game. ask for more good counters or use the ones we ALREADY HAVE.

I've almost never been killed becuase of cloak. if I'm killed in pvp its usually a knock/CC spike damage combo.

Also if you think stamblade is terrible in PvP you don’t know anything about PvP

I've played it in pvp myself experience is the best way to find out. Literally every other class I've played in pvp has had more success than stamblade. give me a break and stop asking for excessive and un needed nerfs.

Ariavellon

dazee wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

oh please. I've played NB in pvp and its terrible. theres NOTHING OP about cloak on a NB. unless "Well built" means stacking magicka and magicka regen to a degree entirely detrimental to stam damage. stop demanding nerfs, and enjoy the game. ask for more good counters or use the ones we ALREADY HAVE.

I've almost never been killed becuase of cloak. if I'm killed in pvp its usually a knock/CC spike damage combo.

Also if you think stamblade is terrible in PvP you don’t know anything about PvP

I've played it in pvp myself experience is the best way to find out. Literally every other class I've played in pvp has had more success than stamblade. give me a break and stop asking for excessive and un needed nerfs.

Seriously...are you like golden standard of what is bad and what is op? you were bad as nb so no way it's strong? seems legit

katorga

It is pretty simple, stamina Nightblade is the the best designed class. Period. That is a pretty huge hurdle to balance against through nerfs. Take cloak away, it is still great. What other class can play without ANY weapon skills if it wanted to and still be effective?

Lucky28

dazee wrote: »

Doesn't justify making stamblades unable to use the skill which already has NO stamina morph. Stamblades die in pvp when something looks at them. Cloak is their only real survival tool. and its also a DEFINING FEATURE of the nightblade class. STEALTH.

I didn't say they "should not be able to cloak" i'm actually very much against that idea.

And again no. That's magblade, at least stamblades have rally and vigor.... *** i remember when i used to have actual heals.

katorga

katorga wrote: »

It is pretty simple, stamina Nightblade is the the best designed class. Period. That is a pretty huge hurdle to balance against through nerfs. Take cloak away, it is still great. What other class can play without ANY weapon skills if it wanted to and still be effective?

After posting this I read the update 22 combat notes, so I don't expect stamblade to be the best designed any more.

Heimpai

dazee wrote: »

Stamblade being able to cloak is not a problem. Stamblade cannot sustain cloak indefinitely like magblade. if there is a problem with cloak its magblades. Learn to counter cloak dont whine and demand fun be removed from the game for your pleasure.

Then i guess the same can be said about magsorc shields/ magknights wings/ magden shield/ and magplar

They can all use their defenses indefinitely

Juhasow

dazee wrote: »

frostz417 wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

If you dont care if stamblades get shafted then you dont play stamblades and dont have an opinion on them worth listening to at all.

Stamblades are also getting nerfed in the dps department in Elsweyr so stop whining and thank ZOS for it.

Played stamblade for a couple of years along with other classes. Class is a complete joke. Requires no thumbs to play PvP and pve. It deserves a nerf. Dont be mad your carry class is finally being placed inline with others

By removing cloak? HAHAHHHAHAA nice troll. BTW I have like one stamblade alt I barely play. does that make it "MY" class?

I am just sick of the nerf herders destroying the last semblance of fun and enjoyment I get from classes.

So You comment on something You barely play and propably have no idea about from the balance perspective ? Nice.

Knootewoot

Been saying this also. Cloak itself is NOT an OP skill. It has enough counters which work. Potions do the trick easily.

Problem is the other tools a stamblade has access too. Good mobility, medium armor passives, snare removal, dodge roll most attack etc. And they hit like a truck compared to magblade.

If a magblade cloaks, good chance he is still at same spot or nearby.
If a stamblade cloaks, he probably casted snare removal, vigor and dodge roll before that, meaning he is healed up, miles away or at least not near where you think he is.

My stamblade bowtard can almost cloak unlimited if I weave it in between rotation so it's a myth they can only cloak 2 or 3 times.

I don't think removal of cloak with stamblade is a good option, because they are still nightblades (blabla class identity and such)

My main magblade however seriously needs help and any tips of a pro is also welcome. But since the last patch I just can't get it to work anymore. I even consider dropping vampire after 5 years.

I wait @zos decision we can read later on. Already the nerf bat has been swinging around so I am curious what happens for all classes next update.

Qbiken

dazee wrote: »

Stamblade being able to cloak is not a problem. Stamblade cannot sustain cloak indefinitely like magblade. if there is a problem with cloak its magblades. Learn to counter cloak dont whine and demand fun be removed from the game for your pleasure.

Just use Shacklebreaker + tristat glyph on all pieces and you can cloak 8-9 times (if not more) in a row with a tripot as a stamblade.

Cloak in general is fine tho, I wouldn't mess with it at this point. And most open world magblades I see (if I actually see one that isn't a caluurion ganker) uses dark cloak for the extra heal.

fred4

LordTareq wrote: »

ChunkyCat wrote: »

If your magblade hits like a wet noodle, then you’re magblading wrong. Every class has the potential to hit hard.

Melee magblade has the 'issue' that its melee weapon is stamina/weapon damage based while its abilities are magicka. While they can get comparable ability tooltip damage to stamblades, light/heavy/bash attacks deal 50% or so less damage which considering the substantial damage contribution of light attack means they deal 20% or so less overall damage than their stamina counterparts.

This is actually even more severe in practice than the tooltips and your post make it out. My 2H melee magblade light attacks typically hit a medium armor stamblade for around 500. I have no weapon pen, no CP, and my weapon crit is in the toilet. Stamblades, by contrast, hit me for up to 3K crit light attacks (in CP) and they may add a bash in the same GCD, which I don't do to preserve my precious stamina.

Knootewoot wrote: »

If a magblade cloaks, good chance he is still at same spot or nearby.
If a stamblade cloaks, he probably casted snare removal, vigor and dodge roll before that, meaning he is healed up, miles away or at least not near where you think he is.

To be honest, I find it's more the other way round when I compare my stamblade to my magblade. I run a melee magblade with Concealed Weapon, Forward Momentum, Steed mundus, 3x gold Swift jewelry and Windrunning. My magblade is fast in cloak, my stamblade is fast outside of cloak. The stamblade feels like a snail, in cloak, however I grant you that dodge rolling is a big advantage. Ice Blockade can be a problem for the magblade, however I put that down to Forward Momentum not working 100% reliably.

My main magblade however seriously needs help and any tips of a pro is also welcome. But since the last patch I just can't get it to work anymore. I even consider dropping vampire after 5 years.

Well, it depends on what you want to be. I run into strong ranged magblade duellers from time to time, but rarely, and I don't know how to build for that. I can tell you that melee magblade works for me, but requires a very specific setup, e.g. a Caluurion greatsword and Zaan. This allows a melee playstyle and has upfront burst, comparable to a stamblade, however it runs out of puff, if that burst does not work. The 2H wet-noodle effect takes over. Overall a Caluurion / Zaan build is strong, though, and I'd be afraid that any offensive buffs to that playstyle ZOS might accidentally do would result in calls for nerfs in a subsequent patch.

You've probably already read about my playstyle in the PLEASE HELP MAGBLADE thread. Your last comment indicated you were trying Fortified Brass + Pirate Skeleton. As you say yourself, you cannot build for damage, defense and sustain. My approach is that you cannot build for tankiness - it's too much of a sacrifice - but you can build for speed and elusiveness. Furthermore as a cloaking magblade you go through burst / disengage cycles and I recommend Deep Thoughts for sustain, especially stamina sustain.

Knootewoot

fred4 wrote: »

You've probably already read about my playstyle in the PLEASE HELP MAGBLADE thread. Your last comment indicated you were trying Fortified Brass + Pirate Skeleton. As you say yourself, you cannot build for damage, defense and sustain. My approach is that you cannot build for tankiness - it's too much of a sacrifice - but you can build for speed and elusiveness. Furthermore as a cloaking magblade you go through burst / disengage cycles and I recommend Deep Thoughts for sustain, especially stamina sustain.

Thanks, I look into it. Indeed with fortified brass and pirate I can easily tank a few people but I'm limited to spamming shields to survive.
I don't have caluurion only the sash. So it's hard for me to rely on proc sets alone. I used to love a spinner/war maiden combo, but it doesn't work for me anymore. My damage is so low it seems, plus I die so quick.

First thing to do is dropping vampire after 5 years. I hard decision because I just love vampires. I also will look into deep thoughts. Thanks man.