ZOS please rework Alkosh set

Helric

This set is now BiS for Tank in trial and almost in dungeon too.
It's a aberation for tank to wear it.
Please, pleaaaase, rework it.
Maybe with 5% damage reduction instead 5% dps ? Healt instead weapon critical ? Heavy instead medium ?

Or maybe it's time to give a similar debuff on true set tank ?

Tanks need some love ZOS

VaranisArano

Why is it an aberration for tanks to wear a support set on their jewelry and weapons? Especially since Ebon is still bugged on weapon swap.

That's not to say tanks couldn't do with more support sets for trials, but tanks are pretty much in the "group support" role at that level anyways because that's the most efficient way to run 12-player content.

dazee

I think what he means is if your'e not wearing alkosh people consider you a bad tank due to lack of alternatives which are as good.

Helric

VaranisArano wrote: »

Why is it an aberration for tanks to wear a support set

Maybe because we don't need 3/4 bonus of the set ?

Helric

Only the last bonus is for support, all the rest are for dps

redspecter23

The only adjustment I could suggest is to make it heavy instead of medium as it's considered a tank set 99.99% of the time. It might also make it a bit easier to track down a workable 5pc set.

Or they could make it a named bonus (like SPC and Olarime) and add other sets that provide that same bonus so it becomes less of a grind to find the shield. Face it. That's the only bottleneck making the set hard to acquire

Edziu

I have better idea...idk how to rework it...but rework it enough so again it could be used on DPS isntead of tank....
when it was released it was used by DPS but all proc sets was able to crit...when ZOS get rid of crits from proc sets this set got no use for dd and well...here we get this into tank setups

dazee

Maybe we should embrace people being able to build for more interesting purposes than being total meat shields as tanks.

therift

My stam DD's would be very annoyed if Alkosh, a stam DD set, were re-worked.

Just because it works for tanking does not make it a tank set.

Let players use sets as they wish and innovate.

If you feel Roar of Alkosh is an aberration for your tank, you can simply deconstruct it and select one of the dozens of other sets that work well for tanks.

xaraan

VaranisArano wrote: »

Why is it an aberration for tanks to wear a support set on their jewelry and weapons? Especially since Ebon is still bugged on weapon swap.

That's not to say tanks couldn't do with more support sets for trials, but tanks are pretty much in the "group support" role at that level anyways because that's the most efficient way to run 12-player content.

Pretty much just because nothing will probably be better than this set. I doubt they will add in a debuff that strong on another set, and if they did, people would combine it with Alkosh. So it would be nice to actually get a benefit out of the 2/3/4 piece for a tank to use.

Personally I'd like to see it pushed back onto DPS by making it more worthwhile for them to run, but if it's going to be ignored and left to tanks, giving us weapon crit, bonus dungeon damage, etc. is just... well, lame. Obviously you can still get the job done with it, but as the go-to set to run for every tank it's pretty boring to think about "building" a necro tank that will be wearing the same gear as every other tank I've run for YEARS.

max_only

therift wrote: »

My stam DD's would be very annoyed if Alkosh, a stam DD set, were re-worked.

Just because it works for tanking does not make it a tank set.

Let players use sets as they wish and innovate.

If you feel Roar of Alkosh is an aberration for your tank, you can simply deconstruct it and select one of the dozens of other sets that work well for tanks.

If everyone was a free thinker like you, we wouldn’t have a problem. The problem is people reading guides and believing the only way to get to 4 is 2+2. Try to tell your guild 3+1 = 4 and the raid spot goes to someone who will stay in line. So I’ve heard anyway, I don’t have time for trials anymore.

Ebon, Alkosh, Lord Warden. That’s it. If there are two tanks then only one can wear Ebon. So Torugs instead of Ebon.
There’s a finite number of combinations when it comes to being a tank in this community.

dazee

max_only wrote: »

therift wrote: »

My stam DD's would be very annoyed if Alkosh, a stam DD set, were re-worked.

Just because it works for tanking does not make it a tank set.

Let players use sets as they wish and innovate.

If you feel Roar of Alkosh is an aberration for your tank, you can simply deconstruct it and select one of the dozens of other sets that work well for tanks.

If everyone was a free thinker like you, we wouldn’t have a problem. The problem is people reading guides and believing the only way to get to 4 is 2+2. Try to tell your guild 3+1 = 4 and the raid spot goes to someone who will stay in line. So I’ve heard anyway, I don’t have time for trials anymore.

Yeah and that kind of thinking makes as much sense as 3+7=1.5

Only Sheogorath would support such logic.

max_only

dazee wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

therift wrote: »

My stam DD's would be very annoyed if Alkosh, a stam DD set, were re-worked.

Just because it works for tanking does not make it a tank set.

Let players use sets as they wish and innovate.

If you feel Roar of Alkosh is an aberration for your tank, you can simply deconstruct it and select one of the dozens of other sets that work well for tanks.

If everyone was a free thinker like you, we wouldn’t have a problem. The problem is people reading guides and believing the only way to get to 4 is 2+2. Try to tell your guild 3+1 = 4 and the raid spot goes to someone who will stay in line. So I’ve heard anyway, I don’t have time for trials anymore.

Yeah and that kind of thinking makes as much sense as 3+7=1.5

Only Sheogorath would support such logic.

I honestly can’t tell if this is agreement or not lol

dazee

max_only wrote: »

I honestly can’t tell if this is agreement or not lol

Total agreement I was referring to the logic of the people who think 2+2 is the only way to get 4. clearly 3+1 = 5 in their minds.

T3hasiangod

dazee wrote: »

Maybe we should embrace people being able to build for more interesting purposes than being total meat shields as tanks.

If you're building to be a meat shield as a tank, then you're tanking wrong. Tanking in ESO is focused more around buffing and debuffing. It is easy to be a traditional tank in this game; there are end-game tanks that are doing vAS HM main tank position (that's tanking Olms) in all medium armor.

The truth is that you don't need to be in two heavy armor sets to be a tank. It's just overkill. It is a far better use of your tank to get them to provide buffs and debuffs. That's using Alkosh for the penetration bonus. That's running Dragonguard for higher Major Force uptime. It's using Torug's to get your Crusher enchant even stronger.

Nobody who tanks in vet trials builds themselves to be a meat shield in 99 percent of scenarios. Perhaps in progression guilds, yeah, you might have your tanks build more selfish. But even then, you can easily tank everything in Ebon + Alkosh + Symphony.

VaranisArano

I'm not sure that saying, "Hey ZOS, this set is one of the BIS meta sets for tanks even though its a medium set designed for DDs, can you make the other bonuses even better for tanks?" has a snowflake's chance in the Deadlands of happening.

If what you want is something to break the Ebon/Alkosh/Torugs stranglehold over the trials meta, ZOS is either going to have to nerf those sets to make them even less desirable or add new support sets geared towards tanks that are even better than Ebon/Alkosh/Torugs.

And if your goal is to make a differenttank build than your other tanks and still complete trials, I'd suggest you look for a trials group that isn't hung up on the BIS meta. Because there are plenty of good tanky tank sets and because there is always a meta. Competitive groups that focus on efficiency are going to use the meta, so your trials tanks will still run the same gear as long as you want to wear the meta.

AlienatedGoat

Alkosh doesn't really need a rework.

What we need are better tanking sets. Make an Alkosh alternative, just like how Olorime was a SPC alternative.

Tasear

therift wrote: »

My stam DD's would be very annoyed if Alkosh, a stam DD set, were re-worked.

Just because it works for tanking does not make it a tank set.

Let players use sets as they wish and innovate.

If you feel Roar of Alkosh is an aberration for your tank, you can simply deconstruct it and select one of the dozens of other sets that work well for tanks.

Most dds say it's bad set for them. Why do you say different?

VaranisArano

max_only wrote: »

therift wrote: »

My stam DD's would be very annoyed if Alkosh, a stam DD set, were re-worked.

Just because it works for tanking does not make it a tank set.

Let players use sets as they wish and innovate.

If you feel Roar of Alkosh is an aberration for your tank, you can simply deconstruct it and select one of the dozens of other sets that work well for tanks.

If everyone was a free thinker like you, we wouldn’t have a problem. The problem is people reading guides and believing the only way to get to 4 is 2+2. Try to tell your guild 3+1 = 4 and the raid spot goes to someone who will stay in line. So I’ve heard anyway, I don’t have time for trials anymore.

Ebon, Alkosh, Lord Warden. That’s it. If there are two tanks then only one can wear Ebon. So Torugs instead of Ebon.
There’s a finite number of combinations when it comes to being a tank in this community.

I mean, at the end-game meta-following BIS level, there's a rather small number of gear combinations for any role, especially if you break it down to the class level for DDs.

That comes with the territory when you are pushing for "what's the most efficient way for 12 players to complete this content as fast as possible."

Tasear

VaranisArano wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

therift wrote: »

My stam DD's would be very annoyed if Alkosh, a stam DD set, were re-worked.

Just because it works for tanking does not make it a tank set.

Let players use sets as they wish and innovate.

If you feel Roar of Alkosh is an aberration for your tank, you can simply deconstruct it and select one of the dozens of other sets that work well for tanks.

If everyone was a free thinker like you, we wouldn’t have a problem. The problem is people reading guides and believing the only way to get to 4 is 2+2. Try to tell your guild 3+1 = 4 and the raid spot goes to someone who will stay in line. So I’ve heard anyway, I don’t have time for trials anymore.

Ebon, Alkosh, Lord Warden. That’s it. If there are two tanks then only one can wear Ebon. So Torugs instead of Ebon.
There’s a finite number of combinations when it comes to being a tank in this community.

I mean, at the end-game meta-following BIS level, there's a rather small number of gear combinations for any role, especially if you break it down to the class level for DDs.

That comes with the territory when you are pushing for "what's the most efficient way for 12 players to complete this content as fast as possible."

The issue is stack and burn is effective way for content. The need players to do more then stand pretty in content.

WrathOfInnos

Instead of taking away things that people enjoy, I’d much rather see some new sets that help tanks buff group DPS. The options are pretty limited at the moment, so Alkosh is the obvious choice. The 2nd common armor debuff set for tanks is Torugs Pact, which only removes a pathetic 632 armor from an enemy (assuming Infused Crusher).

I thought it was interesting when tanks would wear things like Sunderflame (back when it removed over 3k armor) or Night Mother’s (when it stacked with Pierce Armor). Sadly both of these options were removed from viability.

Another cool one that has fallen out of use was Morag Tong, back when StamDK was a popular DPS build. Maybe adding more sets similar to this would open up options, debuffing enemies to various elements. A fire version might even open up tanking opportunities to non-DK’s (where Engulfing Flames is one of the most important debuffs). A magic damage or physical damage version could also be very fun.

grannas211

Remember how long it took for Spell Power Cure to get replaced? Yeah there is still some time to go...

T3hasiangod

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Instead of taking away things that people enjoy, I’d much rather see some new sets that help tanks buff group DPS. The options are pretty limited at the moment, so Alkosh is the obvious choice. The 2nd common armor debuff set for tanks is Torugs Pact, which only removes a pathetic 632 armor from an enemy (assuming Infused Crusher).

I thought it was interesting when tanks would wear things like Sunderflame (back when it removed over 3k armor) or Night Mother’s (when it stacked with Pierce Armor). Sadly both of these options were removed from viability.

Another cool one that has fallen out of use was Morag Tong, back when StamDK was a popular DPS build. Maybe adding more sets similar to this would open up options, debuffing enemies to various elements. A fire version might even open up tanking opportunities to non-DK’s (where Engulfing Flames is one of the most important debuffs). A magic damage or physical damage version could also be very fun.

Tong is making a bit of a comeback now with the Black Widow synergy and bow/bow builds being a thing now. But yeah, there just aren't many good support options for tanks anymore.

dazee

AlienatedGoat wrote: »

Alkosh doesn't really need a rework.

What we need are better tanking sets. Make an Alkosh alternative, just like how Olorime was a SPC alternative.

Does olorime even work for sorc healers? I dont think they have anything which procs it.

AlienatedGoat

dazee wrote: »

AlienatedGoat wrote: »

Alkosh doesn't really need a rework.

What we need are better tanking sets. Make an Alkosh alternative, just like how Olorime was a SPC alternative.

Does olorime even work for sorc healers? I dont think they have anything which procs it.

Every healer usually procs Olorime. It procs off ground effect abilities, like healing springs. For a sorc that doesn't use healing springs for some weird reason, they can always use Liquid Lightning.

AlienatedGoat

Or blockade of course.

AlienatedGoat

grannas211 wrote: »

Remember how long it took for Spell Power Cure to get replaced? Yeah there is still some time to go...

TBH, it should've happened at the same time as Olorime and Relequens. Both stam DPS and healers got really good sets from CR.

Galenwe isn't very good, and could've been a great tanking set if it was given an enemy resistance area debuff on the 5pc. Was a huge wasted opportunity IMO.

When was the last time tanks got something good added that was explicitly added for tanks? Imperial City w/ Lord Warden?

starkerealm

xaraan wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Why is it an aberration for tanks to wear a support set on their jewelry and weapons? Especially since Ebon is still bugged on weapon swap.

That's not to say tanks couldn't do with more support sets for trials, but tanks are pretty much in the "group support" role at that level anyways because that's the most efficient way to run 12-player content.

Pretty much just because nothing will probably be better than this set. I doubt they will add in a debuff that strong on another set, and if they did, people would combine it with Alkosh. So it would be nice to actually get a benefit out of the 2/3/4 piece for a tank to use.

Personally I'd like to see it pushed back onto DPS by making it more worthwhile for them to run, but if it's going to be ignored and left to tanks, giving us weapon crit, bonus dungeon damage, etc. is just... well, lame. Obviously you can still get the job done with it, but as the go-to set to run for every tank it's pretty boring to think about "building" a necro tank that will be wearing the same gear as every other tank I've run for YEARS.

Scales with the number of medium armor pieces slotted, or something.

Honestly, the problem with Alkosh isn't that the tank's running them. It's that, right now, someone in the trial needs to. If you take that weight off the tank, then it just goes to the stam DPS.

LiquidPony

AlienatedGoat wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

Remember how long it took for Spell Power Cure to get replaced? Yeah there is still some time to go...

TBH, it should've happened at the same time as Olorime and Relequens. Both stam DPS and healers got really good sets from CR.

Galenwe isn't very good, and could've been a great tanking set if it was given an enemy resistance area debuff on the 5pc. Was a huge wasted opportunity IMO.

When was the last time tanks got something good added that was explicitly added for tanks? Imperial City w/ Lord Warden?

The idea behind Galenwe is fantastic. It could be extremely strong. It just needs tweaking. Increase the number of affected allies to 8 or 12 and either make it 100% chance on blocking or 50% chance on taking damage.

code65536

I thought it was about time for the bi-monthly Alkosh thread.

Yes, Alkosh is a DPS set. Yes, ZOS designed it to be a DPS set. Alkosh being used on tanks is something that ZOS didn't envision when they designed the set. Players, blessed with the magical power of hindsight, criticize ZOS for that, but they forget that it took a few months before Alkosh started being adopted by tanks--it was initially used by players as a DPS set.

ZOS wanted to design sets that emphasized group synergy, and they envisioned that groups would designate one or two DDs to be the Alkosh wearers. The problem, as it turns out, is that because Alkosh is a debuff on the target, it benefits the entire group, which makes it more efficient for it to be used on a tank rather than a DD.

To their credit, ZOS didn't repeat this mistake with the next trials sets: Architect and War Machine have a cap on the number of players affected, which makes it impractical for supports to wear them (though for 4-man content, a support in Architect or War Machine could make sense). (And to their discredit, the same cap applied to the two support sets from HoF, which simply nailed shut the coffin for two sets that were already very weak.)

In any case, at this point, the ship has long since sailed. It's one thing for them to revamp and improve sets that nobody uses, but touching a set that has been in use for so long would be too controversial. Just leave it as it is, and maybe one day when there are sets even more compelling for a tank to use, you'll find DDs wearing Alkosh again.

T3hasiangod wrote: »

If you're building to be a meat shield as a tank, then you're tanking wrong. Tanking in ESO is focused more around buffing and debuffing.

A tank that's dead isn't going to be doing much buffing and debuffing, eh?

People tanked vMoL HM with under 30K health. So ZOS responded by making the enemies in the next trial hit much harder. The first clears of vHoF were all done by high-health "meat shield" tanks (though this was also in part due to the diminished importance of resource pool size and the size of Igneous Shields during the first week of Morrowind on Live). But over time, as tanks got more experience with the incoming damage, as strategies improved, as the mechanics became better understood, people started to shed their Plague Doctor and now we tank it in Torug/Alkosh.

And then ZOS saw how much damage experienced tanks were outright avoiding, and so they added undodgeable attacks and unavoidable DoTs in Cloudrest and more recently, the combo of unavoidable DoT+defile in Blackrose and Frostvault HM. Clearly, they want to push tanks to be tanky, as evidenced by the incoming damage creep over the years.

So to say that building a meat shield is "wrong" is going a bit too far. It's wrong, of course, if you are seeking to be a competitive trials tank. But that's not the case for the vast majority of players in this game. They might lack the quick reaction times and reflexes to reliably dodge every heavy attack. Or maybe they just want to clear the latest DLC dungeon with minimal stress. The player base has a wide spectrum of skill levels and aspiration levels, and there's nothing wrong with having build choices that reflect that reality.

therift

Tasear wrote: »

therift wrote: »

My stam DD's would be very annoyed if Alkosh, a stam DD set, were re-worked.

Just because it works for tanking does not make it a tank set.

Let players use sets as they wish and innovate.

If you feel Roar of Alkosh is an aberration for your tank, you can simply deconstruct it and select one of the dozens of other sets that work well for tanks.

Most dds say it's bad set for them. Why do you say different?

It's fun. So is Essence Thief, another much-derided DD set.

There comes a point in playing the game that outside competitive leaderboard runs, it doesn't matter much at all what sets you run. PvE is the exact same thing over and over and over again. After a while, you're so comfortable playing against a program that you can throw all the meta and BiS nonsense out the window and just goof around.