More Alliance Ranks & greater rewards for Alliance War Veterans!

starkerealm

Universe wrote: »

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starkerealm wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

The ranks I suggested can be added as a part of an overhaul to the Alliance War - ways that AP is gained.

Actually, skip the new ranks for a second.

The problem with the Alliance War system right now is, you keep ranking up. You'll eventually end up with zergs full of Grand Overlords. Which doesn't make much sense.

If you wanted to overhaul this to avoid this, you'd need to rework ranks so they actually functioned like ranks. With different ranks earning AP for different things, and in different quantities. Probably also with rank specific buffs. Encouraging players to pick roles and stick with them in Cyrodiil, rather than just mindless Zerging.

Thank you for the input!
Yes, roles can be a good addition for the new ranks, but the ranks can be fine without too many issues.
Well unless there is a dedicated guild raid of veteran alliance players who played for a long time and mysteriously all are AR50 or other bizarre scenario, not all the players in one group will ever be Grand Overlords at the same time.
Same with Legendary Hero, I don't think we will ever see 24 men group and each of them earned 165M AP/120M AP(if buff not implemented).
I still see rarity in different types of groups.

I'm actually thinking, the rank characteristics for a GO should be that they don't earn AP from their own kills, but instead earn it from Keep captures and defenses. But, also get flagged on the map for all players. So, you'd know where a GO was going on the map, before they got there. If you wanted to zerg with them, you'd get (non-stacking) buffs, but at the same time, you knew, wherever they were going, there was going to be a party.

A truly interesting idea
Though it could be open to abuse and griefing.
What ZOS can take from this idea is the no AP from kills for Grand Overlord if they implement my new ranks, then the all claim "They got to Legendary Hero because they zerg" will disappear.

A way to implement the no AP:
So the grand overlord can toggle an option to play for "Legendary Hero" ON or OFF.
If the setting is ON, the AP from kills will be turned OFF and if the setting is OFF then the AP from kills will be turned ON but the Grand Overlord won't progress any further in alliance rank until he turns the setting ON again.
A bit weird way to deal with AP gained from zerging, but this may work xD.
In order to progress to Elite ranks over AR50, there will be need to do extra work!

I'm thinking, if you had a GO right now, you might bust yourself down. Specifically all of the ranks around specific roles, and then camping there.

So, you have your Legionaries and Enlisted that are focused on combat other players and supporting Officers. You Officers who are focused on buffing your enlisted, and directing them. (Offering bonus AP for behaviors like assaulting keeps and outposts), and then your Flag Officers who focus on high level strategy. Without adding more ranks to the system. Possibly a volunteer/recruit tier that focuses on repairs and other supporting activities.

Again, if the idea is to overhaul the system, simply slapping more on top isn't going to fix the existing problems. However, changing to a system that changes the rank structure to reflect how Cyrodiil plays might be a part of that solution. Particularly, encouraging zerging, but directing it towards officers and flag officers.

And, yeah, to be clear, the entire idea behind being a GO would be to paint a huge target on your back to draw both friends and foes to you. It'd also make that achievement for waxing one make a little more sense.

Could also be that only GOs would be eligible for Emperor. Want to make a name for yourself? You need to step up and lead the troops to victory.

Universe

starkerealm wrote: »

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Universe wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

The ranks I suggested can be added as a part of an overhaul to the Alliance War - ways that AP is gained.

Actually, skip the new ranks for a second.

The problem with the Alliance War system right now is, you keep ranking up. You'll eventually end up with zergs full of Grand Overlords. Which doesn't make much sense.

If you wanted to overhaul this to avoid this, you'd need to rework ranks so they actually functioned like ranks. With different ranks earning AP for different things, and in different quantities. Probably also with rank specific buffs. Encouraging players to pick roles and stick with them in Cyrodiil, rather than just mindless Zerging.

Thank you for the input!
Yes, roles can be a good addition for the new ranks, but the ranks can be fine without too many issues.
Well unless there is a dedicated guild raid of veteran alliance players who played for a long time and mysteriously all are AR50 or other bizarre scenario, not all the players in one group will ever be Grand Overlords at the same time.
Same with Legendary Hero, I don't think we will ever see 24 men group and each of them earned 165M AP/120M AP(if buff not implemented).
I still see rarity in different types of groups.

I'm actually thinking, the rank characteristics for a GO should be that they don't earn AP from their own kills, but instead earn it from Keep captures and defenses. But, also get flagged on the map for all players. So, you'd know where a GO was going on the map, before they got there. If you wanted to zerg with them, you'd get (non-stacking) buffs, but at the same time, you knew, wherever they were going, there was going to be a party.

A truly interesting idea
Though it could be open to abuse and griefing.
What ZOS can take from this idea is the no AP from kills for Grand Overlord if they implement my new ranks, then the all claim "They got to Legendary Hero because they zerg" will disappear.

A way to implement the no AP:
So the grand overlord can toggle an option to play for "Legendary Hero" ON or OFF.
If the setting is ON, the AP from kills will be turned OFF and if the setting is OFF then the AP from kills will be turned ON but the Grand Overlord won't progress any further in alliance rank until he turns the setting ON again.
A bit weird way to deal with AP gained from zerging, but this may work xD.
In order to progress to Elite ranks over AR50, there will be need to do extra work!

I'm thinking, if you had a GO right now, you might bust yourself down. Specifically all of the ranks around specific roles, and then camping there.

So, you have your Legionaries and Enlisted that are focused on combat other players and supporting Officers. You Officers who are focused on buffing your enlisted, and directing them. (Offering bonus AP for behaviors like assaulting keeps and outposts), and then your Flag Officers who focus on high level strategy. Without adding more ranks to the system. Possibly a volunteer/recruit tier that focuses on repairs and other supporting activities.

Again, if the idea is to overhaul the system, simply slapping more on top isn't going to fix the existing problems. However, changing to a system that changes the rank structure to reflect how Cyrodiil plays might be a part of that solution. Particularly, encouraging zerging, but directing it towards officers and flag officers.

And, yeah, to be clear, the entire idea behind being a GO would be to paint a huge target on your back to draw both friends and foes to you. It'd also make that achievement for waxing one make a little more sense.

Could also be that only GOs would be eligible for Emperor. Want to make a name for yourself? You need to step up and lead the troops to victory.

Thanks for the feedback
Some interesting ideas, nice!
Though a complete overhaul to the Alliance War ranking system is a huge topic on itself so it is a bit off topic for this discussion, sorry.
I suggest to open a discussion which is dedicated for the Alliance War Ranking System - overhaul.
P.S - I can't imagine ZOS dramatically changing the Alliance War ranking system, 5+ years after the game release.

Universe

I added an optional note in my OP post, just so you could notice:
"* Optional - The addition of new ranks can be implemented with some tweaks in how AP gains are calculated so there will be less zerging."

I already stated some ways on how to achieve this:
"...could further reduce the overall AP gained from kills when the enemy is seriously outnumbered in an area(not just split the ap based on damage/healing), it should be quite to easy to program.
Also, the AP gained should reflect good strategy, i.e if a player killed players while defending a keep/scroll he should be rewarded with more AP rather than someone who just kill players near a resource(farming)."

ChefZero

Universe wrote: »

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ChefZero wrote: »

PvP rewarding system itself is broken. AvA rank is more about grinding and not playing good. You should get rewards by playing good, playing the map and sportsmanship attitude.

AP in the current state should be a common currency for buying common stuff. For a good and representative reward/ladder system we need a 2nd scoring mechanic. Give PvP guilds something to be meaningful and not just an extended buddy list.

Thank you for the feedback
I wouldn't mind if ZOS will adjust the AP gain to better reflect skill.
Though no scoring system will be immune from abuse.
I do consider PvP raiding through guilds a bit too powerful and many already expressed their opinion that pvp guilds who wish to raid need their own campaigns, i.e competitive organized PVP, CP enabled and no CP.

Of course, every PvP game has the problem to implement a scoring/rewarding system without abuseability. That's why I haven't suggested anything because I have no clue.

But IMO we're just talking about the tip of the iceberg. If you want to reward good players you have to define first what's making a player in cyro PvP good. Is it playing the map? If yes ZOS have to fix how the map is working atm and what motivate players in it.
Also AP ladder was a lazy way to determine an emperor. And why are only individual player rewarded in a MMORPG with large scale battles, what about the guilds? Because it's nearly impossible in the current state to reward guilds without faction locks and multi guilds.

PvP guilds are the backbone of a community in a PvP game but ZOS never pushed them to something meaningful. If you have a healthy community with PvP guilds they will recruit new players and bring them into PvP. If more people would play PvP ZOS would more care about it. It's a vicious circle.
Imagine a cyrodiil where PvP guilds are rewarded for playing the map and keeps having 3 instead of 2 flags. Ball group problem solved...

TL;DR - Adjusting AP gain or guild campaigns won't solve anything. Overhaul PvP, make PvP guilds great again!

J18696

The extra Passive for hero rank are way to much back in the day former emperors had a passive that gave like 2% stats and that was to much for ppl so 50% wouldn't fly I do think we need more skins outfits put into the alliance rank unlocks it is very bland atm you dont get much out for the grind to grand overlord other than a few dyes and a scroll to place in a house that alot of pvp players don't spend enough time in house to even care about it

Universe

Thanks for the feedback @ChefZero
While I do appreciate the PVP guilds for their great work they do in different campaigns, I don't think it will be wise to greatly reward PVP guilds since the campaign is also greatly influenced by players who are not in PVP guilds, i.e most of the player base.
If exclusive rewards for PVP guilds will be introduced, it will create a monopoly of the PVP guilds over the different campaigns.

My suggestions on how adjust the AP gain were just a partial solution.
Though it could potentially help in reducing the overall benefit from zerging.

J18696 wrote: »

The extra Passive for hero rank are way to much back in the day former emperors had a passive that gave like 2% stats and that was to much for ppl so 50% wouldn't fly I do think we need more skins outfits put into the alliance rank unlocks it is very bland atm you dont get much out for the grind to grand overlord other than a few dyes and a scroll to place in a house that alot of pvp players don't spend enough time in house to even care about it

Thanks for your feedback!
The power buff of Legendary Hero is optional as I stated in the OP post.
Though I don't think it will be a problem since it will be so rare that it will have no real consequence.
I can't imagine that guild groups will just farm non stop for years for them to have groups of 24 men of Legendary Heroes.
Legendary Hero AR 59 165M alliance points requirement is over 2.5X of the total alliance points amount required for Grand Overlord AR 50...
A Grand Overlord will have to farm additional 100M alliance points on top of his 64.68M AP, this type of grind will take years.
99.99% will never grind over max 100K AP(average) every day of the entire year since most have other business to do IRL or due to other reasons.
So it is logical that it is 100K AP per day for the most active PVP players in a given time period.
For AR 50 to AR 59 - 100K per day, that's 1,000(rounded down) more days of grind = 2.73 years.
For AR 0 to AR 59 - 100K per day, that's 1,650 days of grind = 4.5 years.

Also, average active PVP players will grind 50K AP per day(average) in a given time period.
For AR 50 to AR 59 - 50K per day, that's 2,000(rounded down) more days of grind = 5.47 years.
For AR 0 to AR 59 - 50K per day, that's 3,300 days of grind = 9 years.

*So it is obvious that most players will never get to AR59.
It will be extremely rare, probably only a handful of players per alliance, so the rarity of this can make the Legendary Hero buff even more exclusive and thus balanced(just like there is 1 active emperor per campaign, there will be only about 20-30 players at any time from all alliances who have it out of thousands of participants).
But as I posted earlier, the powers buff is optional and they can simply receive a boost to the rewards and earn some cosmetic items.

Diundriel

I a buff would be nice, but it should just Count Player/BG/tick ap for new ranks

sth as strong as that former "former Emperor" buff.
it is not game Breaking, but a small reward for achieving sth which is really hard to achieve...

aswell i think former emp title should be locked to the Campaign in which you got it

[edited to consolidate posts]

Universe

@Diundriel Thank you for the feedback
Yes, the optional powers buff can be small compared to my initial numbers(2%-10%).
Just a word of advice, it will be appreciated if you will consolidate your ideas into one post when you express your ideas so it will be easier to read the discussion

Diundriel

thought this webside is a smart as discord

glavius

Universe wrote: »

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Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

So in other words you want to people to get a give-me emp buff. Sounds like a horrible idea.

No.
It will be much lesser than Emperor.
The above numbers are roughly almost 1/2 of Emperor.
Also, the above numbers can be lesser, like 2%-10%.

Regardless, if you giving players who either have the time or the means to easily get to that rank a buff that would make them arguably better than a large majority of players who haven't even gotten to rank 50 yet. Not to mention that there is literally no roadblock or obstacle that could potentially deny those buffs. Sorry but no. Adding more ranks is one thing, but making people get added power for free practically is a terrible idea that is no way shape or form good.

(Also saying that "only very few people will have it" is not balance.)

As I posted earlier, the buff numbers are a suggestion.
It can be much lesser with even less benefits.
You can consider my suggestion as a prototype to build on.
Players who grind deserve to be rewarded

Just like players who grinded cp for months in cracked wood cave originally deserved to be rewarded? And became gods in cyrodiil. NO THANKS!

And for those that didn't play back then, a little video showcasing a cp 1200 or so (if I remember correct) fighting cp 10-300 guys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEjhVhSLKN4

Universe

glavius wrote: »

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Universe wrote: »

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Dracan_Fontom wrote: »

So in other words you want to people to get a give-me emp buff. Sounds like a horrible idea.

No.
It will be much lesser than Emperor.
The above numbers are roughly almost 1/2 of Emperor.
Also, the above numbers can be lesser, like 2%-10%.

Regardless, if you giving players who either have the time or the means to easily get to that rank a buff that would make them arguably better than a large majority of players who haven't even gotten to rank 50 yet. Not to mention that there is literally no roadblock or obstacle that could potentially deny those buffs. Sorry but no. Adding more ranks is one thing, but making people get added power for free practically is a terrible idea that is no way shape or form good.

(Also saying that "only very few people will have it" is not balance.)

As I posted earlier, the buff numbers are a suggestion.
It can be much lesser with even less benefits.
You can consider my suggestion as a prototype to build on.
Players who grind deserve to be rewarded

Just like players who grinded cp for months in cracked wood cave originally deserved to be rewarded? And became gods in cyrodiil. NO THANKS!

And for those that didn't play back then, a little video showcasing a cp 1200 or so (if I remember correct) fighting cp 10-300 guys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEjhVhSLKN4

Thanks for the feedback and the nice & relevant video
The optional buff I was suggesting is far lesser compared to the difference of 1200 cp to 10-300 cp back then.
2%-10% buff is nothing compared to the 100%/200%+ buff of no cp cap shown in the video in your post.
Though if the buff to combat proves too much, the developers can simply just give the top rank a boost to the rewards and only cosmetic items.
I already posted in my OP post:
"* Optional - Instead of the below power buff, the Legendary Hero can have a boost to Rewards of the Worthy mail, rewards from turning in cyrodiil AVA quests and end of campaign rewards."

ZOS_RikardD

Greetings,

We have had to remove or edit several comments for either baiting or insulting commentary or naming and shaming.

Please remember to keep conversations constructive and civil and take a moment to review our Community Rules here.

Thank you for your understanding.

Universe

In addition to my post I wanted to add an idea for better rewards for existing high rank, Grand Warlord:
*50% bonus to gold amount in Rewards of the Worthy mail(not end of campaign rewards, this applies only to the reward received every 20K ap).
*10% discount when buying items from the siege merchants & items from the War researcher, such as motifs.
*Optional Passive: You're allowed to teleport to one of your Alliance controlled Keep or Outpost once every 2 hours.
This works similar to Keep Recall Stones:
You cannot recall to a structure that is under attack (shown on the UI as a starburst icon).
You cannot recall to a structure while standing inside the region of a Keep, Resource, Outpost or Town.
You cannot use a Recall Stone while actively in combat.
Recall Stones can be used while in Caves of Cyrodiil, but not in the Imperial City.
Recall Stones are account bound, so they can be banked but not traded to other players.
You cannot use a Recall Stone while carrying an Elder Scroll.

Rowjoh

Obviously a big NO to any sort of buff that increases power/ability but the overall premise the OP makes is an important one which hopefully ZoS will take on board.

Capping progression completely dead in games like this is always a very bad idea both gameplay-wise and business-wise.

I'm not sure increasing Rankings is the answer but a better progression/bonus/reward system than currently exists would definitely create more motivation, enjoyment and reason to keep playing and would be a very healthy thing all round

Universe

Rowjoh wrote: »

Obviously a big NO to any sort of buff that increases power/ability but the overall premise the OP makes is an important one which hopefully ZoS will take on board.

Capping progression completely dead in games like this is always a very bad idea both gameplay-wise and business-wise.

I'm not sure increasing Rankings is the answer but a better progression/bonus/reward system than currently exists would definitely create more motivation, enjoyment and reason to keep playing and would be a very healthy thing all round

Thank you for the feedback
The Legendary Hero buff to combat is optional.
As I posted in my OP post:
"* Optional - Instead of the below power buff, the Legendary Hero can have a boost to Rewards of the Worthy mail, rewards from turning in cyrodiil AVA quests and end of campaign rewards."

Yes, the main reason to add better rewards for existing and new alliance ranks is to motivate players to participate more in the Alliance War.
This may not be a complete or the greatest of solutions, but it can be a good start

Velocious_Curse

I mean, those extra stats are a little too much. Especially in the day of age where people PvDoor empty keeps to get AP. I mean they did away with the former Emp buffs a long time ago because people thought they were too much and those buffs were only like 2% max stats, 1% recovs and that was it.

Dashmatt

I feel like I have done a lot of PvP and rank 50 seems ages away. Considering it is not even shared between characters, I can’t imagine ever needing or wanting additional ranks.

Also, if you can max out your alliance rank, the absolute last thing you need is a buff. The experience gap is huge enough.

Blinkin8r

New furnishings for the already existing ranks would be cool. Or maybe add 1 more rank go give GO's something to push for. If you wanted to introduce multiple new ranks I'd introduce them one at a time. Especially if you want is to make 165 mil ap. That's just disgusting. Also no buffs please. The buffs listed are too strong. I'd be ok with minor buffs like 2-5%.

Universe

Thanks for the feedback @Dashmatt, @Blinkin8r

Note: It would have been nice to receive an answer from the developers if they could actually consider my ideas.
A simple Yes or No with a short explanation could be great @ZOS_BrianWheeler

enzoisadog

ugh

Blinkin8r

Universe wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback @Dashmatt, @Blinkin8r

Note: It would have been nice to receive an answer from the developers

No offense, you have some cool ideas here. But if they reply I'll eat my hat.

Universe

enzoisadog wrote: »

ugh

Thanks for the feedback xD

Blinkin8r wrote: »

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Universe wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback @Dashmatt, @Blinkin8r

Note: It would have been nice to receive an answer from the developers

No offense, you have some cool ideas here. But if they reply I'll eat my hat.

Thank you for the feedback!
It is up to them if to reply or not and I'm fine with whatever they choose.
Though I'm pretty sure that the developers noticed my discussion by now

Universe

In addition to my post I wanted to add an idea for better rewards for existing rank, Warlord:
*Skin - "Ebony-Ruby-Red Skin of the Warlord".
Optional: *Mount - "Elite Alliance War Lion".
Similar to "Alliance War Horse" but it is an heavily armored Lion with unique appearance(cosmetic, doesn't influence effectiveness).
The lion will bear the relevant Alliance symbol AD/EP/DC.

Kozer

Yes lets give a buff to people that cannot be removed. Even a small buff would be unfair as it would be permanent.

Blinkin8r

ZOS_RikardD wrote: »

Greetings,

We have had to remove or edit several comments for either baiting or insulting commentary or naming and shaming.

Please remember to keep conversations constructive and civil and take a moment to review our Community Rules here.

Thank you for your understanding.

To be clear, I'm not eating my hat for this one.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos

Considering they actually doubled the ap gains like two years ago i gthink they wont focus on this tbh.

But sure, as long as it contributes to the overall pvp health, why not.

Universe

Kozer wrote: »

Yes lets give a buff to people that cannot be removed. Even a small buff would be unfair as it would be permanent.

Thanks for the feedback

Blinkin8r wrote: »

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ZOS_RikardD wrote: »

Greetings,

We have had to remove or edit several comments for either baiting or insulting commentary or naming and shaming.

Please remember to keep conversations constructive and civil and take a moment to review our Community Rules here.

Thank you for your understanding.

To be clear, I'm not eating my hat for this one.

I don't expect that the developers will respond to any ideas a player suggests on forum.
A response from them can be nice, but it is enough if they just read the discussion.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos wrote: »

Considering they actually doubled the ap gains like two years ago i gthink they wont focus on this tbh.

But sure, as long as it contributes to the overall pvp health, why not.

Thanks for the feedback
It is true that the ap gain is much higher now than it used to be.
The new ranks & rewards I suggested can add to the overall Alliance War progression & rewards system.

Also, it will somewhat make the ap gain more balanced since the new very high ranks will be harder to achieve.
The new ap gain won't make this journey easy since getting to those ranks will require a lot more alliance points than previous ranks.

Delphinia

@Universe I love this idea. There is no reason players who put the time and commitment into one character shouldn't be rewarded just because other players haven't. There are various rewards along the ranking system as it is and adding more for those who worked their way up, shouldn't be an issue for anyone. Players can choose which character or characters to excel in the game and there are other benefits players with multiple characters get that those who play only one or two do not as it is. If not, everyone would choose to focus on just one at a time.

Universe

Delphinia wrote: »

@Universe I love this idea. There is no reason players who put the time and commitment into one character shouldn't be rewarded just because other players haven't. There are various rewards along the ranking system as it is and adding more for those who worked their way up, shouldn't be an issue for anyone. Players can choose which character or characters to excel in the game and there are other benefits players with multiple characters get that those who play only one or two do not as it is. If not, everyone would choose to focus on just one at a time.

Thank you for the feedback!

I hope that the developers will at least consider my ideas for some time before reaching the final decision.
What I suggested in this discussion is merely a prototype to build on, the developers can change/add/remove features as they wish.
Indeed, just like there is an end game features for PVE veterans, there should be some more end game features for PVP veterans.

Sheuib

50 is enough. It has to end somewhere.