Why are they nerfing dungeons?

Jhalin

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Malprave wrote: »

IMO what’s actually happening here is the majority is forcing the minority to accept a diluted game experience. The nerfing of the dlc dungeons effectively limits the replay value for that minority.

And the flipside to that is the difficulty level of dlc dungeons limits the playability for the majority. Businesses succeed by appealing to lots of people. Those that don't tend to wildstar.

Normal difficulty DLC dungeons aren’t even slightly out of reach. The mechanics on normal are forgiving and the DPS requirements are low (in the 10k - 15k range, if that).

They could not make the fights any easier without removing (straightforward) mechanics and turning them into plain stack and burn fights, and even then people would complain because they don’t want to even try to do better.

Vet is for people who are willing to put forth effort and a modicum of time. They are not for RP builds, people who want a carry, someone who’s idea of dps is spamming one ability the entire fight, or a tank who thinks they’re not obligated to help with add management and debuffing.

Mr_Walker

BuddyAces wrote: »

Does it irk people that bad that there is content that they refuse to learn that they need it dumbed down so much? Nermal is easy. Drops the same gear other than the monster set, which if you can't clear the place, isn't going to help you anyways.

It doesn't irk me at all. What irks me is misrepresentation of issues.

Malprave

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Malprave wrote: »

IMO what’s actually happening here is the majority is forcing the minority to accept a diluted game experience. The nerfing of the dlc dungeons effectively limits the replay value for that minority.

And the flipside to that is the difficulty level of dlc dungeons limits the playability for the majority. Businesses succeed by appealing to lots of people. Those that don't tend to wildstar.

Which difficulty level is limiting playability for the majority? Normal or Veteran?
Look, maybe I like to play tennis. I spend a lot of money on tennis. Racquets, shoes, balls, etc. I play a good, normal game of tennis for enjoyment. But, I can’t win at Wimbledon. I can’t win a tournament even down at the local rec center. I’m terrible as a matter of fact. But I still enjoy a nice normal game of tennis. I don’t demand that they change the rules of the tournaments to level the playing field for me. I don’t get sore about it. I just enjoy my nice normal game of tennis.
Please stop pretending that this content is somehow gated behind a wall of difficulty. There is a normal mode. It does exist. It’s the mode intended for the majority. No, everybody has to get sore and complain so they change the rules.

Facefister

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Malprave wrote: »

IMO what’s actually happening here is the majority is forcing the minority to accept a diluted game experience. The nerfing of the dlc dungeons effectively limits the replay value for that minority.

And the flipside to that is the difficulty level of dlc dungeons limits the playability for the majority. Businesses succeed by appealing to lots of people. Those that don't tend to wildstar.

"Wildstar" argument... we will have many people like you parroting that for atleast two months from now on. Your "majority" can still experience the story and the encounters on normal.

Facefister

Mr_Walker wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Does it irk people that bad that there is content that they refuse to learn that they need it dumbed down so much? Nermal is easy. Drops the same gear other than the monster set, which if you can't clear the place, isn't going to help you anyways.

It doesn't irk me at all. What irks me is misrepresentation of issues.

What are those issues? I'll tell you what the issue is: You can't clear vet nor you want work towards it, you want it handed out to you, therefore you do tons of mental gymnastics like "I have a work!" or "one-shot mechanics!". So you hope that when you whine long and loud enough ZOS might nerf those vets to the ground so you can "experience" it. You don't want normal, normal is too easy, even for you. But you can't be a**ed to put in some effort and time into it because you're the only one who has a job. And by "You" I mean all the others.

code65536

disintegr8 wrote: »

What is the point of running vet dungeons unless you want helmets?

For... the challenge? The fun? The achievements? The motifs that I can sell for cartloads of gold? What is definitely not on my list of reasons to run content is gear. After the vMA weapon grind, I refused to do any runs for the sake of gear, since I'm not a competitive player and am content to use gear that's "good enough". Yes, I do eventually acquire complete sets of BiS dungeon/trial sets, but only as the byproducts of runs that I did for other reasons, and it took me longer than others to complete my sets because I never actively sought them out.

If you're running content just for the gear and not to have fun... then you're running that content for the wrong reason.

MikaHR

You just have to look at Wildstar, RIft, SWTOR to see where this leads when devs cater to tiny vocal minority.

As far as 99% of playerbase goes...they got no content update since Murkmire and will only be getting half of the story with Elsweyr because devs thought it is a good idea to stuff the other half in DLC dungeons....that everyone avoids like a plague, even actively unsubbing to avoid them.

Eldar_Ftw

If they want to nerf something, how about vMA. That trial shows everything that is wrong with ESO.

FierceSam

When you have people cancelling ESO because they don’t want to be forced into DLC dungeon content (which was supposed to be a BONUS for them remember)

When you have thread after thread after thread demanding a way of AVOIDING DLC content

That’s when you know you have a problem. And kudos to ZOS for actually trying to deal with it. And double kudos to Finn for coming onto the thread to explain their thinking.

It’s only natural that ZOS should look at the failure points in the DLC dungeons and try to address them. Isn’t that what all the “I want a harder overland mode” posts are calling for? I’m glad they have begun to address this.

Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed. I applaud anything that makes the various sequences of that fight more obvious, so players get the appropriate cues and can actually play through the dungeon without having to have a tutorial. That’s not dumbing it down, that’s correcting poor dungeon design.

Less sure about the BRF changes, in particular the removal of the stone atronarchs. Here the mechanics are very clear, so it’s very possible for a group that hasn’t done the dungeon before to understand what needs to be done. It isn’t all about DPS. What is hard is coordinating it all, focusing the boss, standing in the lava, dodging the fire Shalks attacks and prioritising the stone atronarchs while jumping on and off the island. I can see why it’s a stumbling block for many groups, but having done it, I’m not sure removing the atronarchs is the best way to deal with this.

One thing I’m certain of is I’m glad ZOS has ignored all those who say these dungeons are easy simply because their DPS is big enough to burn through any mechanics. If your strategy is simply to nuke everything, you might be successful, but you’re not playing the game. Your game wants to make vet just like normal, where the mechanics are invisible because they never fire off. And I’m sad that too often beating bosses is just about the DPS. I’d rather the game was about outwitting interesting mechanics than a constant series of inane DPS checks.

TL:DR kudos to ZOS and let’s hope this makes more players WANT to do this content

Trancestor

This is why there needs to be an "extreme vet" mode for every dungeon, optimized for max cp players.

daemonios

FierceSam wrote: »

Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed.

You're off your rocker. How were the mechanics flawed? It's an easy fight as long as you know the mechanics. It's not a dps check (even though you can burn through it if your group have the dps). The only one-shot mechanic is being caught by the blue flame, and that is preventable by using the pinion to switch the boss' aggro. The only reason to be stuck on this boss is that you don't know or care about said mechanics. Yet ultimately I agree with you - the planar inhibitor is a great example. It's the best example that ZOS are caving to people who don't want to put in a trivial amount of effort in learning a mechanic. The only times I get stuck on this fight is when I'm stuck with groups who want to burn the boss, don't have what it takes, and ignore attempts to explain the mechanics. When you have people trying to help and being ignored, do you really think it's the people doing the ignoring that should be catered to?

daemonios

Trancestor wrote: »

This is why there needs to be an "extreme vet" mode for every dungeon, optimized for max cp players.

"Extreme vet too hard, please nerf now."

Niaver

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Hey folks, we wanted to touch base to help explain some of the Dungeon difficulty adjustments in today’s patch and our reasoning behind them. The changes were first started during the Wrathstone update but just didn’t quite get finished in time. These changes were done as part of an evaluation of completion rates and drop off. We took a look at all of the Dungeon bosses and how often they were completed in relation to how often they were fought. We narrowed down several that seemed to be stumbling blocks for players and dungeons as a whole. From there we evaluated the bosses individually, auditing all of their abilities to see what was killing players and how each ability or add related to the fight’s overall difficulty.

There is no other reason for these changes other than looking at numbers and making adjustments to get more players into and completing these encounters. We will continue this process in the hopes of a better experience for all players. We appreciate that some players like the difficulty of encounters and we strive to maintain some of that while alleviating some of the break points. We hope this has cleared some things up for those players questioning the changes.

As a aside, Hard Modes, in our view, are the space where we can challenge players that seek to push themselves to the limit in four-player content. With this in mind, we have no plans to make any changes to reduce that difficulty.

In my opinion, Hard Mode should be for the entire dungeon/trial. I would like to see three difficulties - Normal, Veteran, Hard Mode. Nowadays a lot of content is either too easy or too difficult for many players. BRP is an example. Normal version is borderline boring even for a random group. Veteran is almost impossible to compele without an organized group.

Mr_Walker

Facefister wrote: »

[
"Wildstar" argument... we will have many people like you parroting that for atleast two months from now on. Your "majority" can still experience the story and the encounters on normal.

Well, obviously people are just falling over themselves to do DLC dungeons. Just, hand over fist....

Mr_Walker

FierceSam wrote: »

When you have people cancelling ESO because they don’t want to be forced into DLC dungeon content (which was supposed to be a BONUS for them remember)

When you have thread after thread after thread demanding a way of AVOIDING DLC content

That’s when you know you have a problem. And kudos to ZOS for actually trying to deal with it. And double kudos to Finn for coming onto the thread to explain their thinking.

It’s only natural that ZOS should look at the failure points in the DLC dungeons and try to address them. Isn’t that what all the “I want a harder overland mode” posts are calling for? I’m glad they have begun to address this.

Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed. I applaud anything that makes the various sequences of that fight more obvious, so players get the appropriate cues and can actually play through the dungeon without having to have a tutorial. That’s not dumbing it down, that’s correcting poor dungeon design.

Less sure about the BRF changes, in particular the removal of the stone atronarchs. Here the mechanics are very clear, so it’s very possible for a group that hasn’t done the dungeon before to understand what needs to be done. It isn’t all about DPS. What is hard is coordinating it all, focusing the boss, standing in the lava, dodging the fire Shalks attacks and prioritising the stone atronarchs while jumping on and off the island. I can see why it’s a stumbling block for many groups, but having done it, I’m not sure removing the atronarchs is the best way to deal with this.

One thing I’m certain of is I’m glad ZOS has ignored all those who say these dungeons are easy simply because their DPS is big enough to burn through any mechanics. If your strategy is simply to nuke everything, you might be successful, but you’re not playing the game. Your game wants to make vet just like normal, where the mechanics are invisible because they never fire off. And I’m sad that too often beating bosses is just about the DPS. I’d rather the game was about outwitting interesting mechanics than a constant series of inane DPS checks.

TL:DR kudos to ZOS and let’s hope this makes more players WANT to do this content

Bam. Headshot.

Mr_Walker

Facefister wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Does it irk people that bad that there is content that they refuse to learn that they need it dumbed down so much? Nermal is easy. Drops the same gear other than the monster set, which if you can't clear the place, isn't going to help you anyways.

It doesn't irk me at all. What irks me is misrepresentation of issues.

What are those issues? I'll tell you what the issue is: You can't clear vet nor you want work towards it, you want it handed out to you, therefore you do tons of mental gymnastics like "I have a work!" or "one-shot mechanics!". So you hope that when you whine long and loud enough ZOS might nerf those vets to the ground so you can "experience" it. You don't want normal, normal is too easy, even for you. But you can't be a**ed to put in some effort and time into it because you're the only one who has a job. And by "You" I mean all the others.

Well, the real issue is that people avoid even normal DLC because at best it's a PITA, and Zos would like to sell these.

So the real issue is, if zos continually cater to the 1% (of which 90% are BS artists), their product won't sell. Companies who can't sell their product tend to wildstar.

FierceSam

daemonios wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed.

You're off your rocker. How were the mechanics flawed? It's an easy fight as long as you know the mechanics. It's not a dps check (even though you can burn through it if your group have the dps). The only one-shot mechanic is being caught by the blue flame, and that is preventable by using the pinion to switch the boss' aggro. The only reason to be stuck on this boss is that you don't know or care about said mechanics. Yet ultimately I agree with you - the planar inhibitor is a great example. It's the best example that ZOS are caving to people who don't want to put in a trivial amount of effort in learning a mechanic. The only times I get stuck on this fight is when I'm stuck with groups who want to burn the boss, don't have what it takes, and ignore attempts to explain the mechanics. When you have people trying to help and being ignored, do you really think it's the people doing the ignoring that should be catered to?

Hey dude,

I didn’t say the mechanics were flawed, I said their implementation was flawed. I found the signalling of each phase was very unclear, especially if you compare it with, say, Galchobar’s hammerstrike in BRF, where the mechanic is clearly signalled. I am glad that they are correcting the poor signalling and making various telegraphs more obvious. This shouldn’t make the challenge any easier, but it should help make communicating what to look out for to new-to-the-dungeon players. It’s similar to ZOS highlighting the heavy attack and casting animations a while back.

Additionally, something we should all consider is just because you TELL someone something it doesn’t mean you have TAUGHT them anything. If things aren’t being learned, it’s as much the teacher’s issue as the pupil’s.

profundidob16_ESO

FierceSam wrote: »

When you have people cancelling ESO because they don’t want to be forced into DLC dungeon content (which was supposed to be a BONUS for them remember)

When you have thread after thread after thread demanding a way of AVOIDING DLC content

That’s when you know you have a problem. And kudos to ZOS for actually trying to deal with it. And double kudos to Finn for coming onto the thread to explain their thinking.

It’s only natural that ZOS should look at the failure points in the DLC dungeons and try to address them. Isn’t that what all the “I want a harder overland mode” posts are calling for? I’m glad they have begun to address this.

Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed. I applaud anything that makes the various sequences of that fight more obvious, so players get the appropriate cues and can actually play through the dungeon without having to have a tutorial. That’s not dumbing it down, that’s correcting poor dungeon design.

Less sure about the BRF changes, in particular the removal of the stone atronarchs. Here the mechanics are very clear, so it’s very possible for a group that hasn’t done the dungeon before to understand what needs to be done. It isn’t all about DPS. What is hard is coordinating it all, focusing the boss, standing in the lava, dodging the fire Shalks attacks and prioritising the stone atronarchs while jumping on and off the island. I can see why it’s a stumbling block for many groups, but having done it, I’m not sure removing the atronarchs is the best way to deal with this.

One thing I’m certain of is I’m glad ZOS has ignored all those who say these dungeons are easy simply because their DPS is big enough to burn through any mechanics. If your strategy is simply to nuke everything, you might be successful, but you’re not playing the game. Your game wants to make vet just like normal, where the mechanics are invisible because they never fire off. And I’m sad that too often beating bosses is just about the DPS. I’d rather the game was about outwitting interesting mechanics than a constant series of inane DPS checks.

TL:DR kudos to ZOS and let’s hope this makes more players WANT to do this content

for the record: BRF stone atronachs mechanic was not clear at all, just like Plane inhibitor it's a clear case of bad and non-intuitive telegraphing or simply total lack of it. Of all the pugs I have led up to this very encounter to then see disband at this point not a single one understood by themselves that the stone atronachs 1-shot wipe the group after a timer expires until I typed it all out for them in full sentences in group chat.

Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.

Now if the stone atronachs animation-wise had been replaced with a giant version of the volcano eruption that grows to 3 times the size of the ones that Galchobar does and then finally explode with 1 supernova BOOM visible throughout the entire island that would have solved the problem and made it crystal clear. That would have intuitively telegraphed to even the smallest kid (that can't read/understand english) that something grows over a 30sec timer and at the end it explodes resulting in 1shot wipe for the group so the only way to prevent that is kill it first.

They did it perfect with the hammer slam technique. That's how everything should visually correspond in the game and they got it right there.

If ESO devs expect the average ESO player to go look up and read online detailed guides or dig into combat logs they got it all wrong at the design phase ! =P

FierceSam

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

for the record: BRF stone atronachs mechanic was not clear at all, just like Plane inhibitor it's a clear case of bad and non-intuitive telegraphing or simply total lack of it. Of all the pugs I have led up to this very encounter to then see disband at this point not a single one understood by themselves that the stone atronachs 1-shot wipe the group after a timer expires until I typed it all out for them in full sentences in group chat.

Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.

Now if the stone atronachs animation-wise had been replaced with a giant version of the volcano eruption that grows to 3 times the size of the ones that Galchobar does and then finally explode with 1 supernova BOOM visible throughout the entire island that would have solved the problem and made it crystal clear. That would have intuitively telegraphed to even the smallest kid (that can't read/understand english) that something grows over a 30sec timer and at the end it explodes resulting in 1shot wipe for the group so the only way to prevent that is kill it first.

They did it perfect with the hammer slam technique. That's how everything should visually correspond in the game and they got it right there.

If ESO devs expect the average ESO player to go look up and read online detailed guides or dig into combat logs they got it all wrong at the design phase ! =P

Fair dos and clear example that what one of us considers “obvious” might not be so obvious to others.

ZOS’s challenge is how to create interesting fights that are understandable to players so they don’t need a tutorial to do them, but can reasonably figure them out over the course of an encounter (x many wipes). And making these fights interesting enough that we want to come back over and over.

That’s a tough ask. And I’m glad ZOS have the courage to revisit their work and amend it based on the metrics they have and the vision they have for the game.

BuddyAces

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

When you have people cancelling ESO because they don’t want to be forced into DLC dungeon content (which was supposed to be a BONUS for them remember)

When you have thread after thread after thread demanding a way of AVOIDING DLC content

That’s when you know you have a problem. And kudos to ZOS for actually trying to deal with it. And double kudos to Finn for coming onto the thread to explain their thinking.

It’s only natural that ZOS should look at the failure points in the DLC dungeons and try to address them. Isn’t that what all the “I want a harder overland mode” posts are calling for? I’m glad they have begun to address this.

Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed. I applaud anything that makes the various sequences of that fight more obvious, so players get the appropriate cues and can actually play through the dungeon without having to have a tutorial. That’s not dumbing it down, that’s correcting poor dungeon design.

Less sure about the BRF changes, in particular the removal of the stone atronarchs. Here the mechanics are very clear, so it’s very possible for a group that hasn’t done the dungeon before to understand what needs to be done. It isn’t all about DPS. What is hard is coordinating it all, focusing the boss, standing in the lava, dodging the fire Shalks attacks and prioritising the stone atronarchs while jumping on and off the island. I can see why it’s a stumbling block for many groups, but having done it, I’m not sure removing the atronarchs is the best way to deal with this.

One thing I’m certain of is I’m glad ZOS has ignored all those who say these dungeons are easy simply because their DPS is big enough to burn through any mechanics. If your strategy is simply to nuke everything, you might be successful, but you’re not playing the game. Your game wants to make vet just like normal, where the mechanics are invisible because they never fire off. And I’m sad that too often beating bosses is just about the DPS. I’d rather the game was about outwitting interesting mechanics than a constant series of inane DPS checks.

TL:DR kudos to ZOS and let’s hope this makes more players WANT to do this content

for the record: BRF stone atronachs mechanic was not clear at all, just like Plane inhibitor it's a clear case of bad and non-intuitive telegraphing or simply total lack of it. Of all the pugs I have led up to this very encounter to then see disband at this point not a single one understood by themselves that the stone atronachs 1-shot wipe the group after a timer expires until I typed it all out for them in full sentences in group chat.

Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.

Now if the stone atronachs animation-wise had been replaced with a giant version of the volcano eruption that grows to 3 times the size of the ones that Galchobar does and then finally explode with 1 supernova BOOM visible throughout the entire island that would have solved the problem and made it crystal clear. That would have intuitively telegraphed to even the smallest kid (that can't read/understand english) that something grows over a 30sec timer and at the end it explodes resulting in 1shot wipe for the group so the only way to prevent that is kill it first.

They did it perfect with the hammer slam technique. That's how everything should visually correspond in the game and they got it right there.

If ESO devs expect the average ESO player to go look up and read online detailed guides or dig into combat logs they got it all wrong at the design phase ! =P

You do not need to read a guide. If you die 3 times to something then you know that that is an issue you need to look at and figure out how to do it. I've never read a guide for any 4 man content in this game excluding vbrp where I was too derpy to figure out how to deal with bug bomb.

Those attros in brf turn red and suddenly everyone dies. How many wipes till you realize that they need to be killed. Tunnel vision is bad. Pay attention and no guide is ever needed.

profundidob16_ESO

BuddyAces wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

When you have people cancelling ESO because they don’t want to be forced into DLC dungeon content (which was supposed to be a BONUS for them remember)

When you have thread after thread after thread demanding a way of AVOIDING DLC content

That’s when you know you have a problem. And kudos to ZOS for actually trying to deal with it. And double kudos to Finn for coming onto the thread to explain their thinking.

It’s only natural that ZOS should look at the failure points in the DLC dungeons and try to address them. Isn’t that what all the “I want a harder overland mode” posts are calling for? I’m glad they have begun to address this.

Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed. I applaud anything that makes the various sequences of that fight more obvious, so players get the appropriate cues and can actually play through the dungeon without having to have a tutorial. That’s not dumbing it down, that’s correcting poor dungeon design.

Less sure about the BRF changes, in particular the removal of the stone atronarchs. Here the mechanics are very clear, so it’s very possible for a group that hasn’t done the dungeon before to understand what needs to be done. It isn’t all about DPS. What is hard is coordinating it all, focusing the boss, standing in the lava, dodging the fire Shalks attacks and prioritising the stone atronarchs while jumping on and off the island. I can see why it’s a stumbling block for many groups, but having done it, I’m not sure removing the atronarchs is the best way to deal with this.

One thing I’m certain of is I’m glad ZOS has ignored all those who say these dungeons are easy simply because their DPS is big enough to burn through any mechanics. If your strategy is simply to nuke everything, you might be successful, but you’re not playing the game. Your game wants to make vet just like normal, where the mechanics are invisible because they never fire off. And I’m sad that too often beating bosses is just about the DPS. I’d rather the game was about outwitting interesting mechanics than a constant series of inane DPS checks.

TL:DR kudos to ZOS and let’s hope this makes more players WANT to do this content

for the record: BRF stone atronachs mechanic was not clear at all, just like Plane inhibitor it's a clear case of bad and non-intuitive telegraphing or simply total lack of it. Of all the pugs I have led up to this very encounter to then see disband at this point not a single one understood by themselves that the stone atronachs 1-shot wipe the group after a timer expires until I typed it all out for them in full sentences in group chat.

Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.

Now if the stone atronachs animation-wise had been replaced with a giant version of the volcano eruption that grows to 3 times the size of the ones that Galchobar does and then finally explode with 1 supernova BOOM visible throughout the entire island that would have solved the problem and made it crystal clear. That would have intuitively telegraphed to even the smallest kid (that can't read/understand english) that something grows over a 30sec timer and at the end it explodes resulting in 1shot wipe for the group so the only way to prevent that is kill it first.

They did it perfect with the hammer slam technique. That's how everything should visually correspond in the game and they got it right there.

If ESO devs expect the average ESO player to go look up and read online detailed guides or dig into combat logs they got it all wrong at the design phase ! =P

You do not need to read a guide. If you die 3 times to something then you know that that is an issue you need to look at and figure out how to do it. I've never read a guide for any 4 man content in this game excluding vbrp where I was too derpy to figure out how to deal with bug bomb.

Those attros in brf turn red and suddenly everyone dies. How many wipes till you realize that they need to be killed. Tunnel vision is bad. Pay attention and no guide is ever needed.

Right. Now please go tell that to the 90% of pug population that keeps failing at this...

BuddyAces

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

When you have people cancelling ESO because they don’t want to be forced into DLC dungeon content (which was supposed to be a BONUS for them remember)

When you have thread after thread after thread demanding a way of AVOIDING DLC content

That’s when you know you have a problem. And kudos to ZOS for actually trying to deal with it. And double kudos to Finn for coming onto the thread to explain their thinking.

It’s only natural that ZOS should look at the failure points in the DLC dungeons and try to address them. Isn’t that what all the “I want a harder overland mode” posts are calling for? I’m glad they have begun to address this.

Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed. I applaud anything that makes the various sequences of that fight more obvious, so players get the appropriate cues and can actually play through the dungeon without having to have a tutorial. That’s not dumbing it down, that’s correcting poor dungeon design.

Less sure about the BRF changes, in particular the removal of the stone atronarchs. Here the mechanics are very clear, so it’s very possible for a group that hasn’t done the dungeon before to understand what needs to be done. It isn’t all about DPS. What is hard is coordinating it all, focusing the boss, standing in the lava, dodging the fire Shalks attacks and prioritising the stone atronarchs while jumping on and off the island. I can see why it’s a stumbling block for many groups, but having done it, I’m not sure removing the atronarchs is the best way to deal with this.

One thing I’m certain of is I’m glad ZOS has ignored all those who say these dungeons are easy simply because their DPS is big enough to burn through any mechanics. If your strategy is simply to nuke everything, you might be successful, but you’re not playing the game. Your game wants to make vet just like normal, where the mechanics are invisible because they never fire off. And I’m sad that too often beating bosses is just about the DPS. I’d rather the game was about outwitting interesting mechanics than a constant series of inane DPS checks.

TL:DR kudos to ZOS and let’s hope this makes more players WANT to do this content

for the record: BRF stone atronachs mechanic was not clear at all, just like Plane inhibitor it's a clear case of bad and non-intuitive telegraphing or simply total lack of it. Of all the pugs I have led up to this very encounter to then see disband at this point not a single one understood by themselves that the stone atronachs 1-shot wipe the group after a timer expires until I typed it all out for them in full sentences in group chat.

Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.

Now if the stone atronachs animation-wise had been replaced with a giant version of the volcano eruption that grows to 3 times the size of the ones that Galchobar does and then finally explode with 1 supernova BOOM visible throughout the entire island that would have solved the problem and made it crystal clear. That would have intuitively telegraphed to even the smallest kid (that can't read/understand english) that something grows over a 30sec timer and at the end it explodes resulting in 1shot wipe for the group so the only way to prevent that is kill it first.

They did it perfect with the hammer slam technique. That's how everything should visually correspond in the game and they got it right there.

If ESO devs expect the average ESO player to go look up and read online detailed guides or dig into combat logs they got it all wrong at the design phase ! =P

You do not need to read a guide. If you die 3 times to something then you know that that is an issue you need to look at and figure out how to do it. I've never read a guide for any 4 man content in this game excluding vbrp where I was too derpy to figure out how to deal with bug bomb.

Those attros in brf turn red and suddenly everyone dies. How many wipes till you realize that they need to be killed. Tunnel vision is bad. Pay attention and no guide is ever needed.

Right. Now please go tell that to the 90% of pug population that keeps failing at this...

So vet needs to be nerfed for those people?

profundidob16_ESO

BuddyAces wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

When you have people cancelling ESO because they don’t want to be forced into DLC dungeon content (which was supposed to be a BONUS for them remember)

When you have thread after thread after thread demanding a way of AVOIDING DLC content

That’s when you know you have a problem. And kudos to ZOS for actually trying to deal with it. And double kudos to Finn for coming onto the thread to explain their thinking.

It’s only natural that ZOS should look at the failure points in the DLC dungeons and try to address them. Isn’t that what all the “I want a harder overland mode” posts are calling for? I’m glad they have begun to address this.

Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed. I applaud anything that makes the various sequences of that fight more obvious, so players get the appropriate cues and can actually play through the dungeon without having to have a tutorial. That’s not dumbing it down, that’s correcting poor dungeon design.

Less sure about the BRF changes, in particular the removal of the stone atronarchs. Here the mechanics are very clear, so it’s very possible for a group that hasn’t done the dungeon before to understand what needs to be done. It isn’t all about DPS. What is hard is coordinating it all, focusing the boss, standing in the lava, dodging the fire Shalks attacks and prioritising the stone atronarchs while jumping on and off the island. I can see why it’s a stumbling block for many groups, but having done it, I’m not sure removing the atronarchs is the best way to deal with this.

One thing I’m certain of is I’m glad ZOS has ignored all those who say these dungeons are easy simply because their DPS is big enough to burn through any mechanics. If your strategy is simply to nuke everything, you might be successful, but you’re not playing the game. Your game wants to make vet just like normal, where the mechanics are invisible because they never fire off. And I’m sad that too often beating bosses is just about the DPS. I’d rather the game was about outwitting interesting mechanics than a constant series of inane DPS checks.

TL:DR kudos to ZOS and let’s hope this makes more players WANT to do this content

for the record: BRF stone atronachs mechanic was not clear at all, just like Plane inhibitor it's a clear case of bad and non-intuitive telegraphing or simply total lack of it. Of all the pugs I have led up to this very encounter to then see disband at this point not a single one understood by themselves that the stone atronachs 1-shot wipe the group after a timer expires until I typed it all out for them in full sentences in group chat.

Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.

Now if the stone atronachs animation-wise had been replaced with a giant version of the volcano eruption that grows to 3 times the size of the ones that Galchobar does and then finally explode with 1 supernova BOOM visible throughout the entire island that would have solved the problem and made it crystal clear. That would have intuitively telegraphed to even the smallest kid (that can't read/understand english) that something grows over a 30sec timer and at the end it explodes resulting in 1shot wipe for the group so the only way to prevent that is kill it first.

They did it perfect with the hammer slam technique. That's how everything should visually correspond in the game and they got it right there.

If ESO devs expect the average ESO player to go look up and read online detailed guides or dig into combat logs they got it all wrong at the design phase ! =P

You do not need to read a guide. If you die 3 times to something then you know that that is an issue you need to look at and figure out how to do it. I've never read a guide for any 4 man content in this game excluding vbrp where I was too derpy to figure out how to deal with bug bomb.

Those attros in brf turn red and suddenly everyone dies. How many wipes till you realize that they need to be killed. Tunnel vision is bad. Pay attention and no guide is ever needed.

Right. Now please go tell that to the 90% of pug population that keeps failing at this...

So vet needs to be nerfed for those people?

That is indeed the decision that ZOS has made yes. That's what it boils down to

Odovacar

Wow...this thread is really going all out

Tan9oSuccka

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

When you have people cancelling ESO because they don’t want to be forced into DLC dungeon content (which was supposed to be a BONUS for them remember)

When you have thread after thread after thread demanding a way of AVOIDING DLC content

That’s when you know you have a problem. And kudos to ZOS for actually trying to deal with it. And double kudos to Finn for coming onto the thread to explain their thinking.

It’s only natural that ZOS should look at the failure points in the DLC dungeons and try to address them. Isn’t that what all the “I want a harder overland mode” posts are calling for? I’m glad they have begun to address this.

Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed. I applaud anything that makes the various sequences of that fight more obvious, so players get the appropriate cues and can actually play through the dungeon without having to have a tutorial. That’s not dumbing it down, that’s correcting poor dungeon design.

Less sure about the BRF changes, in particular the removal of the stone atronarchs. Here the mechanics are very clear, so it’s very possible for a group that hasn’t done the dungeon before to understand what needs to be done. It isn’t all about DPS. What is hard is coordinating it all, focusing the boss, standing in the lava, dodging the fire Shalks attacks and prioritising the stone atronarchs while jumping on and off the island. I can see why it’s a stumbling block for many groups, but having done it, I’m not sure removing the atronarchs is the best way to deal with this.

One thing I’m certain of is I’m glad ZOS has ignored all those who say these dungeons are easy simply because their DPS is big enough to burn through any mechanics. If your strategy is simply to nuke everything, you might be successful, but you’re not playing the game. Your game wants to make vet just like normal, where the mechanics are invisible because they never fire off. And I’m sad that too often beating bosses is just about the DPS. I’d rather the game was about outwitting interesting mechanics than a constant series of inane DPS checks.

TL:DR kudos to ZOS and let’s hope this makes more players WANT to do this content

for the record: BRF stone atronachs mechanic was not clear at all, just like Plane inhibitor it's a clear case of bad and non-intuitive telegraphing or simply total lack of it. Of all the pugs I have led up to this very encounter to then see disband at this point not a single one understood by themselves that the stone atronachs 1-shot wipe the group after a timer expires until I typed it all out for them in full sentences in group chat.

Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.

Now if the stone atronachs animation-wise had been replaced with a giant version of the volcano eruption that grows to 3 times the size of the ones that Galchobar does and then finally explode with 1 supernova BOOM visible throughout the entire island that would have solved the problem and made it crystal clear. That would have intuitively telegraphed to even the smallest kid (that can't read/understand english) that something grows over a 30sec timer and at the end it explodes resulting in 1shot wipe for the group so the only way to prevent that is kill it first.

They did it perfect with the hammer slam technique. That's how everything should visually correspond in the game and they got it right there.

If ESO devs expect the average ESO player to go look up and read online detailed guides or dig into combat logs they got it all wrong at the design phase ! =P

You do not need to read a guide. If you die 3 times to something then you know that that is an issue you need to look at and figure out how to do it. I've never read a guide for any 4 man content in this game excluding vbrp where I was too derpy to figure out how to deal with bug bomb.

Those attros in brf turn red and suddenly everyone dies. How many wipes till you realize that they need to be killed. Tunnel vision is bad. Pay attention and no guide is ever needed.

Right. Now please go tell that to the 90% of pug population that keeps failing at this...

Thing is....Nobody stops and takes 20 seconds to explain mechanics to perhaps someone that hasn’t run it before. Novel concept I know.

99.99% either start pointing fingers, kick or like a child, leave in a huff.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

MikaHR wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Or maybe stop making PvP players grind PvE for best PvP gear?

As i said before, monster sets should ONLY work in dungeons/trials (instanced content) and be like any other 2 piece bonus in anything that is NOT dungeon/trial (same as 3 piece trial sets....which should be extended to 5 pieces bonus as well)

I am so glad you are not in charge of the combat design in this game. That might be the worst idea I have ever heard especially since you can acquire them with PVP currency.

If that is so...why are PvPers doing vet dungeons huh genius? Because i can guarantee you they DONT want to do them.

You WANT this game to fail (just like the rest who followed your rhetoric) *khm* wildstar *khm* rift *khm*... ... ...

Im glad that money people seems to be starting looking into things and have an issue with devs making stuff that looses money and will put devs into line....just like they did after epic disaster that was launch and Craglorn back in the days., becuase these "DLC dungeons" have SAME excact issues that epic fail "VET levels/areas" had back in the day.

Because guess what, here is a BIG revelation for you: game has to be financially viable to continue existing, unless you personally are prepared to cover all the losses they incur to keep it "your way".

I want a game to fail that I have been playing since beta. Yep, that must be it. You act like they are losing money on this game, which is a joke. You also fall under the delusion that someone is either a PVP player or a PVE player. Certainly there are people that full into that category, but I assure you, a lot of people do in fact play both. And if you want a PVP game that requires no outside work to build your character to be competitive, what in the world are you doing playing an MMO? Go play Call of Duty or something.

MikaHR

Oh theres he mantra of every dead MMO right there. Congratulations!

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

MikaHR wrote: »

Or maybe stop making PvP players grind PvE for best PvP gear?

As i said before, monster sets should ONLY work in dungeons/trials (instanced content) and be like any other 2 piece bonus in anything that is NOT dungeon/trial (same as 3 piece trial sets....which should be extended to 5 pieces bonus as well)

I am so glad you are not in charge of the combat design in this game. That might be the worst idea I have ever heard especially since you can acquire them with PVP currency.

If that is so...why are PvPers doing vet dungeons huh genius? Because i can guarantee you they DONT want to do them.

You WANT this game to fail (just like the rest who followed your rhetoric) *khm* wildstar *khm* rift *khm*... ... ...

Im glad that money people seems to be starting looking into things and have an issue with devs making stuff that looses money and will put devs into line....just like they did after epic disaster that was launch and Craglorn back in the days., becuase these "DLC dungeons" have SAME excact issues that epic fail "VET levels/areas" had back in the day.

Because guess what, here is a BIG revelation for you: game has to be financially viable to continue existing, unless you personally are prepared to cover all the losses they incur to keep it "your way".

I want a game to fail that I have been playing since beta. Yep, that must be it. You act like they are losing money on this game, which is a joke. You also fall under the delusion that someone is either a PVP player or a PVE player. Certainly there are people that full into that category, but I assure you, a lot of people do in fact play both. And if you want a PVP game that requires no outside work to build your character to be competitive, what in the world are you doing playing an MMO? Go play Call of Duty or something.

Oh there is the mantra of every dead MMO right there. Congratulations!

shack80

Because 92% of the players can complete dungeon or do achievements. I've been checking some achievement ratios on xbox and it tells you that majority of the players are ***. Thats why they need to nerf the content so every1 can get a change to compete everything. Only sad thing is that the nerfs wont make players better and you will still see alot of failing on even the nerfed content.

code65536

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

When you have people cancelling ESO because they don’t want to be forced into DLC dungeon content (which was supposed to be a BONUS for them remember)

When you have thread after thread after thread demanding a way of AVOIDING DLC content

That’s when you know you have a problem. And kudos to ZOS for actually trying to deal with it. And double kudos to Finn for coming onto the thread to explain their thinking.

It’s only natural that ZOS should look at the failure points in the DLC dungeons and try to address them. Isn’t that what all the “I want a harder overland mode” posts are calling for? I’m glad they have begun to address this.

Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed. I applaud anything that makes the various sequences of that fight more obvious, so players get the appropriate cues and can actually play through the dungeon without having to have a tutorial. That’s not dumbing it down, that’s correcting poor dungeon design.

Less sure about the BRF changes, in particular the removal of the stone atronarchs. Here the mechanics are very clear, so it’s very possible for a group that hasn’t done the dungeon before to understand what needs to be done. It isn’t all about DPS. What is hard is coordinating it all, focusing the boss, standing in the lava, dodging the fire Shalks attacks and prioritising the stone atronarchs while jumping on and off the island. I can see why it’s a stumbling block for many groups, but having done it, I’m not sure removing the atronarchs is the best way to deal with this.

One thing I’m certain of is I’m glad ZOS has ignored all those who say these dungeons are easy simply because their DPS is big enough to burn through any mechanics. If your strategy is simply to nuke everything, you might be successful, but you’re not playing the game. Your game wants to make vet just like normal, where the mechanics are invisible because they never fire off. And I’m sad that too often beating bosses is just about the DPS. I’d rather the game was about outwitting interesting mechanics than a constant series of inane DPS checks.

TL:DR kudos to ZOS and let’s hope this makes more players WANT to do this content

for the record: BRF stone atronachs mechanic was not clear at all, just like Plane inhibitor it's a clear case of bad and non-intuitive telegraphing or simply total lack of it. Of all the pugs I have led up to this very encounter to then see disband at this point not a single one understood by themselves that the stone atronachs 1-shot wipe the group after a timer expires until I typed it all out for them in full sentences in group chat.

Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.

Now if the stone atronachs animation-wise had been replaced with a giant version of the volcano eruption that grows to 3 times the size of the ones that Galchobar does and then finally explode with 1 supernova BOOM visible throughout the entire island that would have solved the problem and made it crystal clear. That would have intuitively telegraphed to even the smallest kid (that can't read/understand english) that something grows over a 30sec timer and at the end it explodes resulting in 1shot wipe for the group so the only way to prevent that is kill it first.

They did it perfect with the hammer slam technique. That's how everything should visually correspond in the game and they got it right there.

If ESO devs expect the average ESO player to go look up and read online detailed guides or dig into combat logs they got it all wrong at the design phase ! =P

LOL, I love that mental image.

This is definitely something that ZOS does poorly. Take Warlord Tzogvin, for example. He has that mechanic where he gets a shield and hits everyone with fire until either the shield breaks or everyone dies. When we saw this for the first time, we were struck by how similar it was to the shield mechanic on the first boss of MoL, so we treated it like that and lo and behold we were right and it worked.

But what about people who haven't run vMoL and thus don't recognize the mechanic? Well, we were watching Ninja stream PTS runs later that week, and they wiped a lot to that mechanic because it's not intuitive. There's a lot of incoming damage, so their first instinct was to just turtle up: spam heals, hold block, etc., but that meant they weren't damaging the shield, and the mechanic would wipe them out. It's a perfectly reasonable instinct, and if it were not for our familiarity with an analogous mechanic from a trial, we probably would've thought to do the same thing as they did. Eventually, I told told them in the stream it's a DPS race and that they must destroy the damage shield before it kills them, and they got it right away. But it's not intuitive, and I can definitely see PUGs struggling with it.

Or Rizzuk. That's even more unintuitive. Hell, our feedback on the PTS was along the lines of, "Despite killing this boss multiple times, we still don't fully understand how the mechanics work. We have a strategy that works well, but we aren't quite sure why it works well."

Unfortunately, by the time PTS rolls around, I suspect they're pretty limited in what they could do. Revamping the visuals of a fight is something that probably couldn't be fit into a short PTS period.

usmcjdking

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

When you have people cancelling ESO because they don’t want to be forced into DLC dungeon content (which was supposed to be a BONUS for them remember)

When you have thread after thread after thread demanding a way of AVOIDING DLC content

That’s when you know you have a problem. And kudos to ZOS for actually trying to deal with it. And double kudos to Finn for coming onto the thread to explain their thinking.

It’s only natural that ZOS should look at the failure points in the DLC dungeons and try to address them. Isn’t that what all the “I want a harder overland mode” posts are calling for? I’m glad they have begun to address this.

Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed. I applaud anything that makes the various sequences of that fight more obvious, so players get the appropriate cues and can actually play through the dungeon without having to have a tutorial. That’s not dumbing it down, that’s correcting poor dungeon design.

Less sure about the BRF changes, in particular the removal of the stone atronarchs. Here the mechanics are very clear, so it’s very possible for a group that hasn’t done the dungeon before to understand what needs to be done. It isn’t all about DPS. What is hard is coordinating it all, focusing the boss, standing in the lava, dodging the fire Shalks attacks and prioritising the stone atronarchs while jumping on and off the island. I can see why it’s a stumbling block for many groups, but having done it, I’m not sure removing the atronarchs is the best way to deal with this.

One thing I’m certain of is I’m glad ZOS has ignored all those who say these dungeons are easy simply because their DPS is big enough to burn through any mechanics. If your strategy is simply to nuke everything, you might be successful, but you’re not playing the game. Your game wants to make vet just like normal, where the mechanics are invisible because they never fire off. And I’m sad that too often beating bosses is just about the DPS. I’d rather the game was about outwitting interesting mechanics than a constant series of inane DPS checks.

TL:DR kudos to ZOS and let’s hope this makes more players WANT to do this content

for the record: BRF stone atronachs mechanic was not clear at all, just like Plane inhibitor it's a clear case of bad and non-intuitive telegraphing or simply total lack of it. Of all the pugs I have led up to this very encounter to then see disband at this point not a single one understood by themselves that the stone atronachs 1-shot wipe the group after a timer expires until I typed it all out for them in full sentences in group chat.

Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.

Now if the stone atronachs animation-wise had been replaced with a giant version of the volcano eruption that grows to 3 times the size of the ones that Galchobar does and then finally explode with 1 supernova BOOM visible throughout the entire island that would have solved the problem and made it crystal clear. That would have intuitively telegraphed to even the smallest kid (that can't read/understand english) that something grows over a 30sec timer and at the end it explodes resulting in 1shot wipe for the group so the only way to prevent that is kill it first.

They did it perfect with the hammer slam technique. That's how everything should visually correspond in the game and they got it right there.

If ESO devs expect the average ESO player to go look up and read online detailed guides or dig into combat logs they got it all wrong at the design phase ! =P

You do not need to read a guide. If you die 3 times to something then you know that that is an issue you need to look at and figure out how to do it. I've never read a guide for any 4 man content in this game excluding vbrp where I was too derpy to figure out how to deal with bug bomb.

Those attros in brf turn red and suddenly everyone dies. How many wipes till you realize that they need to be killed. Tunnel vision is bad. Pay attention and no guide is ever needed.

Right. Now please go tell that to the 90% of pug population that keeps failing at this...

Thing is....Nobody stops and takes 20 seconds to explain mechanics to perhaps someone that hasn’t run it before. Novel concept I know.

99.99% either start pointing fingers, kick or like a child, leave in a huff.

99.99% of the PUG population won't even bother to inform the team they haven't the slightest clue what's going on. They'd rather sit on the floor dead for all but 10 seconds of the fight rather than admit to ignorance.