A Fool's Errand

Silver_Strider

I already know that PTS changes are more or less done else I wouldn't have titled this a Fool's Errand but I need to get this out my system. When 4.3.0 first dropped, it actually looked like a really nice patch. I had some nitpicks here in there but for the most part, everything looked fairly balanced and I was actually hopeful that this was a promising start for the new year. Some races were being opened up in ways that would give their off-spec choices slight buffs, such as Magic Redguard benefiting from the Weapon Cost Reduction to Destro and Resto abilities, and in the cases of Dunmer and Khajiit, having their off-specs completely opened up to play them competitively, which I was completely on board with. That all changed when 4.3.2 came out and altered several races that totally threw everything out of whack. Races that didn't need adjustments either got overtuned (Orc for example) or got some illogical change (like Spell Recharge for Altmer) because they didn't align with some misguided "vision" that ZOS had in mind. With each subsequent patch, those decisions just got worse and worse to a point that I just really can't say that I'm happy about the majority of it, especially when it all started off so promising. I have posted my concerns on a lot of the changes before and while I know I'm wasting my breath at this point, I would still like to list my suggestions as a Hail Mary pass in a last ditch effort to get some real balance this patch.

Altmer
Spell Recharge: Restore 600 Magic or Stamina, based on which is higher, upon activating a Class ability. This effect can occur once every 6 second. Increase Healing Done by 2%
Syrabane's Boon: Increase Max Magic by 2000
Elemental Talent: Increase Max Spell Damage by 179

I restored and buffed the original Spell Recharge effect as well as changed the Cast time buff into a 2% buff to healing done to make up for the reduction in Spell Damage. I felt the reason ZOS gave as to why they altered Spell Recharge was narrow minded as by removing the Magic Restore, they were handicapping Altmer Healers and not taking them into consideration at all. The 2% Healing Done was added to emphasize this point as well as being a more universally useful utility than the current 5% damage reduction with cast times. Their Spell Damage buff was toned down to offset the buff to sustain so that they weren't totally OP in terms of overall Magic usage.

Argonian
Resourceful: Increase Max Magic by 1000. Restore 12% of your Max Health, Magic and Stamina upon drinking a potion.
Argonian Resistance: Increase Max Health by 1000 and your Poison/Disease Resistance by 1155. Immune to Poison and Disease status effects
Life Mender: Increase Healing Received by 4%. Grants 10% Critical Damage and Healing

Since people won't stop exaggerating about how OP the potion passive, I just decided to revert the Morrowind change back to its old 12% Tri-Stat restore effect. I also gave back the poison resist/immunity that Argonian lost as it was lore friendly and made absolutely no sense to remove in the 1st place and it is weaker than the current Live amount so it's techinically still a nerf to Argonian. Finally, I reverted the Healing Done change for Healing Received but only at 4% since they received the 10% Critical Damage/Healing to make them still useful for healing roles while not being a total nerf to Argonian Tanks and actually opening up Argonian DPS a little without making them too powerful either.

Breton
Gift of Magnus: Increase Max Magic by 1750
Spell Annulment: Increase Spell Resistance by 2310 as well as an addition 2310 if afflicted by Burned, Chilled or Concussion status effects. Increase Magic and Stamina Regen by 110
Reduce the cost of Magic Abilities by 6%.

Yes, it's a nerf to Breton but Altmer lost almost 80 Spell Damage for their Sustain passive, it was only right for Breton to be toned down as well so that the balance wasn't too far off. Also, in terms of Lore, it was a bit nonsensical for Altmer and Breton to have the same amount of Max Magic. Still, they should have the best magic sustain of all races that they will still be comparable to Altmer in terms of Damage and Healing.

Dunmer
Dynamic: Increase Max Magic and Stamina by 1500
Resist Flame: Increase Max Health by 500 and Fire Resistance by 2310. Immunity to the Burned Status Effect
Ruination: Increase Spell and Weapon damage by 258

I wanted Altmer and Dunmer to be different in more ways. Dunmer has more Spell Damage but Altmer has more magic, Dunmer has Max Health while Altmer heals for more, Altmer has sustain vs Dunmer's dual stats. This was just a means of alternating the 2 Elves and having them offer different things while being on equal footing and while a Dunmer will still be a better Stamina DPS than a Stamina Altmer, a Magic Altmer will be a better Healer than a Magic Dunmer so it kind of evens out.

Khajiit
Robustness: Increase Health, Magic and Stamina Regen by 100
Lunar Blessing: Increase Max Health, Magic and Stamina by 750
Feline Ambush: Increase Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 7%. Reduce your Detection Radius in Stealth by 3m

I restored Khajiit's Max Resource pools back to 750, while increasing their regen and returning their Crit chance, at a slightly lower potency to try and balance out their damage potential as much as possible with the current Shadow Mundus buff. By restoring their Max resource back down to 750 and reducing their Crit by 1%, I had hoped to keep them in check but I wanted them to be at least someone more sustainable as well so I increased their regen to 100 so that they could still be powerful on both Magic and Stamina roles.

Orc
Brawny: Increase Max Health by 1250 and Max Stamina by 1250
Unflinching: When you deal damage with a Weapon ability, restore 500 Health and 250 Stamina/Magic, whichever is higher. This ability has a 4 second CD. Reduces the cost of your Sprint ability by 12% and increases your Movement Speed while Sprinting by 10%.
Flawless Warrior: Increase Weapon Damage by 258

I altered Orc Stats a bit so that it was still a powerhouse but not to the extent it currently is. I lowered their Max Stamina by 750 and gave them a slight buff to health as well as added a small bit of stamina sustain to try and make it so Orc will still being a beast, just not so much of one that it just powers thru all other options.

Bosmer
Y'ffre's Blessing: Increase Stamina or Magic regen by 258, whichever is higher.
Resist Affliction: Increase Max Stamiana by 1750 and Posion/Disease Resistance by 1155. Immunity to Poison and Disease Status effects.
Hunter's Eye. Increase Weapon and Spell Penetration by 1500. Reduce the cost of Dodge rolling by 3% and after you Dodge Roll, increase movement speed by 10% for 6 seconds. Increase movement speed in Stealth by 25%.

I wanted to give Bosmer some more opened ended buffs to its racials so that it wasn't horribly gimped on the magic side while still maintaining a strong Stamina presence as well. I lowered their Max Stamina to make room for the permanent Weapon/Spell Pen value, while also allowing them to keep their old Poison/Disease resistance and immunity as well. The Dodge cost reduction is also a nice universal utility, offering more usage for both sides of the spectrum. I had to give them something for their Thieving Heritage as well and while it might not be as great as the reduced radius on Khajiit, I'm trying to give them something to help them maintain that bit of their lore while not being completely the same.

Redguard
Martial Training: Reduce the Cost of Weapon abilities by 8%
Conditioning: Increase Max Stamina by 2000
Adrenaline Rush: When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 950 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.

No changes because this is the 1 race I'm totally happy with.

Imperial
Tough: Increase Max Health by 1500
Imperial Mettle: Increase Max Stamina and Magic by 1500
Red Diamond: When you deal direct damage, restore 300 Health, Stamina and Magic. This effect has a 5 second CD. Reduce the cost of Class ability by 3%

I will be blunt here. I want Imperial to be a perfect Jack of All Trades. It'll have some good damage on both ends of the spectrum, offer good Tank or Healing capabilities but it shouldn't be as powerful as it currently is. I know that, at first glance, Imperial just seems like a decently balanced race currently but after a bit of experimenting, Imperial is currently offering a bit too much in terms of utility, sustain and damage, which is why I turned down their sustain tools and evenly divided their max resources so that they can still be a good race, just not TOO good. I also changed their universal cost reduction to only affect class skills so as to limit its current potential even more while still being a useful sustain tool.

Nord
Stalwart: Increase Max Stamina by 1500. When you take damage, Restore 750 Health and 600 Stamina+Magic. This effect has a 7 second CD.
Resist Frost: Increase Max Health by 1000 and Frost Resistance by 2310. Immunity to the Chilled Status Effect
Rugged: Increase Physical and Spell Resistance by 3960. Increase Weapon Damage by 129.

I hate that Nord is shoehorned into Tanks but I am at a complete loss in how to improve their performance in a way that make it more universally appealing with that Ultimate Regen buff. It's a great buff for Nord but at the same time, its something that is just unbalanced, even with it's pitiful 0.5 calculated amount because it makes the race only viable as a Tank without really opening up other avenues for Nord to do much else but be a Tank.. While my changes aren't the best, I just wanted Nord to be something other than a meat shield.

I know some of you will disagree with my suggested changes. Some of you will say that these are unbalanced in some way, and who knows, you might be right but I wanted to at least say my final words. I wanted Racials to be somewhat more open ended. I wanted Races like Bosmer or Breton to be able to play Magic or Stamina roles more effectively, even if it wasn't a huge change or something that made them meta. I wanted Races that were shoehorned into singular functions, like Nords, to be more meaningful outside of their niche. I WANTED BALANCE!!!!! I tried to be as fair as possible with these suggested even if I know it's far too late now.

I'm a fool for expecting it but I will hold on to this foolish hope that maybe one day, we'll actually get balance.

MartiniDaniels

Looks awesome. If ZOS rolled out this, I'll pre-order Elsweyr collector's edition instantly. But we all know what we see tomorrow

validifyedneb18_ESO

So you're sad that Nords are shoehorned into being tanks, then suggest removing the Ult generation that makes them potentially such an interesting pick for different roles?

Also was never a fan of the dunmer 500 hp, made no real sense. The fire resist is nice but the really cool class flavor was burning immunity which you seem to have removed.

Khajiits had their crit chance changed to crit damage for very good reasons, It was a good change and will likely help keep the balance healthy in the future. Your notes are obviously based on 4.3.0 but this is a clear omission that should be added to your stuff imo.

A bit confused why you just make Altmer a much better Breton when it comes to healing.

Thats about all I have to add. You seem to have deleted a lot of class identity, and while I sympathize slightly with your preference of the 4.3.0 state of things, some clear improvements have been made since then that you have seemingly just ignored.

Silver_Strider

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

So you're sad that Nords are shoehorned into being tanks, then suggest removing the Ult generation that makes them potentially such an interesting pick for different roles?

Also was never a fan of the dunmer 500 hp, made no real sense. The fire resist is nice but the really cool class flavor was burning immunity which you seem to have removed.

Khajiits had their crit chance changed to crit damage for very good reasons, It was a good change and will likely help keep the balance healthy in the future. Your notes are obviously based on 4.3.0 but this is a clear omission that should be added to your stuff imo.

A bit confused why you just make Altmer a much better Breton when it comes to healing.

Thats about all I have to add. You seem to have deleted a lot of class identity, and while I sympathize slightly with your preference of the 4.3.0 state of things, some clear improvements have been made since then that you have seemingly just ignored.

I actually removed the Ultimate Regen for the same reason I nerfed the Imperial Cost reduction. It offered utility in a way that was offsetting balance in terms of Tanking. In the current Live iteration, Tanking can be done with every race as they all actually offer something for the role, no matter how minute that benefit might be. Max Resources, cost reduction, Regen, etc. are all things that any race can offer and a Tank can make use of. However, by having Ultimate regen and Ultimate cost reduction, it tipped the scales too much towards Nords and Imperial tanks, even if it was one of the more interesting changes to occur this patch. It was a balance decision to keep the Tank role open ended and allow all races to still partake in the role on equal footing.

I didn't remove the Burn immunity, I just forgot to mention it, will edit it in. Forgot Nord and Chilled Immunity too.

I understand very well why Khajiit got their Crit Chance altered and I do believe its something to watch out for. However, I don't believe that the approach ZOS took was a good one. Testing needs to be done with Khajiit and the Shadow Mundus so that a balance can be found between them to coexist in tandem with each other instead of axe out the passive in place of something else that lowered their DPS potential and threw them right back to their current live performance in which they're inferior in terms of damage to other races and have little to offer either side of the spectrum. I'll admit, a 1% nerf to Crit chance isn't going to instantly balance out Khajiit + Shadow Mundus and maybe a 3% nerf would be better in terms of balancing them out, but just like you perform surgery with a scalpel and not a chainsaw, you don't just heavy handed alter something without testing.

Altmer and Breton are fairly close to par in terms of Healing. Altmer might have stronger heals but Breton has more sustain so the 2 should balance out. The 2% Healing Done passive is largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things and while Altmer sustain is better now, it's only just on par with what Spell Annulment would offer with 100 Magic regen being effectively added so it comes down to the 6% Magic Cost reduction vs the 250 Magic difference/179 Spell Damage/2% Healing Done, which isn't a huge difference to the 258 Spell Damage difference between Breton and Altmer now or even the 4.3.0 difference between the races.

My idea wasn't to eliminate racial identity. I tried to preserve them as much as possible when and where I could and made these changes not only for the sake of Balance but to preserve the Lore of each race and represent them as much as humanly possible. It's why I tried preserving Bosmer's Stealth passive and Argonian's Poison resistance, it's why I nerfed Breton's Max Magic to be below Altmers. Everything I did, I did for both Lore and Balance reasons. Hell, I could've taken it a step further and completely removed the Max Health from Argonian to gave them Max Stamina instead but I'm trying to be fair to those players that play Argonian Tanks and they already got nerfed enough with the potion passive reversion being made into 12% Tri-restore from the flat 4k they'd otherwise get more from it.

MLGProPlayer

Dunmer is top magicka and stamina DPS with these changes. You'd need to tone down the damage. They have an effective spell and weapon damage of 408, which is significantly higher than any other race. Khajiit with crit chance again would likely be #2.

So basically the two hybrid races would be #1 and #2 in both magicka and stamina DPS. That completely negates the need for any of the specialized races.

Silver_Strider

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Dunmer is top magicka and stamina DPS with these changes. You'd need to tone down the damage. They have an effective spell and weapon damage of 408, which is significantly higher than any other race. Khajiit with crit chance again would likely be #2.

So basically the two hybrid races would be #1 and #2 in both magicka and stamina DPS. That completely negates the need for any of the specialized races.

I get that in end game, both Khajiit and Dunmer would potentially get the most mileage out since sustain there can essentially negate the potential sustain that races like Altmer and Orc would provide but I'm trying to get a general balance between all races to be within as small a margin as physically possible. Sustain is still important and while end game trial times will be pushing for Dunmer and Khajiit DPS, the other races shouldn't be so far behind that something as simple as human error could turn the difference into a non-issue, which is what I'm aiming for. If a nerf must absolutely happen, you could just completely revert Dunmer back to their original 1250 Max Magic and Stamina while keeping the rest the same and the damage difference would be even lower. Khajiit, as stated earlier in the thread, needs to be fully tested before I'm fully content with lowering their crit exponentially and would like to slowly shave off until the right number is found, although I am willing to shave off 3% Crit instead of my suggested 1% to start.

Trancestor

Agreed but your change proposals are even worse imo, nerf Imperials lol ok

BattleAxe

I commend your effort here. Reading your suggestion then doing the math all your changes accomplish is generally keeping the status quo of BiS races and bringing some changes to races that will allow them to be picked for more than just 1 role. If 4.3.0 is nearly balanced why change any of the passives at all. I main a Nord tank nord has always been since launch a tanky race i for one loved the nord changes and do not need the small added weapon damage the ultimate generation and flat resistance was enough for me. Only 2 races on most recent pts patch could use some attention in my opinion bosmer and argonian. Overall tho racial changes on pts are very well balanced and allows diversity without gimping yourself choosing a race that isn’t BiS

Silver_Strider

Trancestor wrote: »

Agreed but your change proposals are even worse imo, nerf Imperials lol ok

You laugh now but Imperial in its current state are capable of far more than you are giving it credit for. Due to the 2k Max Health, Imperial is very likely to out parse Bosmer and Redguard with a few minor adjustments to set up, such as using a single Health Enchantment in place of a Stamina enchantment and using Lava Foot Soup instead of Arteum Broth to even out the differences between Redguard/Bosmer and Imperial, with Imperial having slightly more Stamina and Sustain than either Redguard or Bosmer while having slightly less Max Health. For the sake of simplicity, I'm leaving out each race's natural sustain.

Let's look at the 2 set ups
Imperial + Lava Foot + 1 Health enchant
2954 Health + 4575 Stamina + 457 Stamina regen
Redguard/Bosmer with Aretum + 1 Stamina enchant
3724 Health + 4326 Stamina + 319 Stamina regen

All that would need to be factored in is, how much would the new CP formula affect these stats? I sadly haven't found the new formula for CP yet so I can't answer that but the implication is that an Imperial would still have more damage by default over Redguard or Bosmer as the CP forumla would increase the Max Stamina difference between the 3 races, pushing Imperial higher up than either Bosmer or Redguard. Add on the added utility of cheaper Ultimates for Imperial as well and things get a bit more muddled. I'm just taking precautionary measures is all. Mark my works, someone else is going to try this and before long, Imperial will be getting the same treatment Argonian got and be nerfed to the ground, which is something I'd rather nip in the bud now.

Silver_Strider

BattleAxe wrote: »

I commend your effort here. Reading your suggestion then doing the math all your changes accomplish is generally keeping the status quo of BiS races and bringing some changes to races that will allow them to be picked for more than just 1 role. If 4.3.0 is nearly balanced why change any of the passives at all. I main a Nord tank nord has always been since launch a tanky race i for one loved the nord changes and do not need the small added weapon damage the ultimate generation and flat resistance was enough for me. Only 2 races on most recent pts patch could use some attention in my opinion bosmer and argonian. Overall tho racial changes on pts are very well balanced and allows diversity without gimping yourself choosing a race that isn’t BiS

Racial balance was good in 4.3.0, I'd even go so far as to say they were great . The racial difference discrepancy was within a 2k margin of one another but whereas someone else would see that 2k as fairly balanced, all I saw was 2k worth of numbers that would need adjusting. My adjustments, as you started aren't perfect; there will never truly be perfect balance in ESO or any MMO for that matter but if I can decrease that discrepancy by even 1 DPS, than I'll know I'm on the right track to getting there. Also, as you stated, I wanted to open up races a little more to allow them to be able to played for more than 1 role as well as allowing for off-specs to not be totally gimped; they're still gimped but just slightly less so.

BattleAxe

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

Agreed but your change proposals are even worse imo, nerf Imperials lol ok

You laugh now but Imperial in its current state are capable of far more than you are giving it credit for. Due to the 2k Max Health, Imperial is very likely to out parse Bosmer and Redguard with a few minor adjustments to set up, such as using a single Health Enchantment in place of a Stamina enchantment and using Lava Foot Soup instead of Arteum Broth to even out the differences between Redguard/Bosmer and Imperial, with Imperial having slightly more Stamina and Sustain than either Redguard or Bosmer while having slightly less Max Health. For the sake of simplicity, I'm leaving out each race's natural sustain.

Let's look at the 2 set ups
Imperial + Lava Foot + 1 Health enchant
2954 Health + 4575 Stamina + 457 Stamina regen
Redguard/Bosmer with Aretum + 1 Stamina enchant
3724 Health + 4326 Stamina + 319 Stamina regen

All that would need to be factored in is, how much would the new CP formula affect these stats? I sadly haven't found the new formula for CP yet so I can't answer that but the implication is that an Imperial would still have more damage by default over Redguard or Bosmer as the CP forumla would increase the Max Stamina difference between the 3 races, pushing Imperial higher up than either Bosmer or Redguard. Add on the added utility of cheaper Ultimates for Imperial as well and things get a bit more muddled. I'm just taking precautionary measures is all. Mark my works, someone else is going to try this and before long, Imperial will be getting the same treatment Argonian got and be nerfed to the ground, which is something I'd rather nip in the bud now.

Imperial 3% reduced ultimates on the highest costing ultimate reduces it by 9 that would be werewolf so it’s actually not as all powerful as it seems

Arciris

@validifyedneb18_ESO

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Khajiits had their crit chance changed to crit damage for very good reasons.

I am very curious to hear your explanation about that "very good reason" since the Devs didn't bother to say a single word about this change,

twing1_

Arciris wrote: »

@validifyedneb18_ESO

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

Khajiits had their crit chance changed to crit damage for very good reasons.

I am very curious to hear your explanation about that "very good reason" since the Devs didn't bother to say a single word about this change,

@Arciris

As Khajit stood on v4.3.0 with a bonus to both spell and weapon critical, they were overperforming in Magicka roles.

Parsing would show that Khajit were top magicka dps (almost accross the board and in almost all gear set ups for templar and nightblade), while the traditional magicka "pure" races like Breton and altmer could not compete.

The change to critical damage vs chance had a greater nerf impact on magic cats than stamina cats, due to stamina races in general having a higher crit chance than their magicka counterparts (most endgame magicka builds sit somewhere around 45-55% crit while stamina builds often sit between 55-70% crit).

A lot of people see the change to critical damage as a nerf accross the board, but really it is both a nerf and a buff. On lower crit chance set ups (like most magicka builds) this is a nerf, but on high crit chance classes this change is actually a buff.

For my particular nightblade using the +10% crit damage passive and with minor force active with 30 pts into precise strikes, the calculated breakpoint (the point at which the change to critical damage starts becoming a buff and not a nerf) I found to be at ~66% critical chance. Seeing as I currently have 68% critical chance (even without the Khajit bonus to critical chance), I am actually benefiting from this change.

For classes that don't receive natural bonuses to critical damage (all but nb and temp), the change to critical damage actually starts benefiting builds at an even lower crit chance. If I recall correctly, this is about 58% crit chance (again easily obtainable for stamina builds but not so much for magicka builds) for classes without crit damage passives running minor force and 30 points into precise strikes. Classes that don't utilize minor force receive the benefit at even lower crit chance values.

The more critical chance you have, the larger the benefit of this change. Similarly, the lower your critical damage (all classes but nb and temp, less points in precise strikes, not running minor force, etc), the more benefit you will see from this change as well.

So in short, this change mainly hurts magic cats (that were over performing) and leaves most stamina builds relatively unchanged (even giving some a very slight buff). It can also be seen as a situational nerf to Khajit nb/Temps, but buffs to Khajit in all other classes.

John_Falstaff

@twing1_ , and all that is so much nonsense. Because: 1) magicka khajiits weren't overperforming even on NBs/Templars (see parses from @susmitds ), and 2) after the latest chsnges, stamina khajiits have dropped to third place after orcs and their fellow hybrid dunmers (which, aha, are somehow allowed to perform better even though they are not "stamina" race). Relative buff it did to other classes than nb/templar doesn't mean a thing as long as it just mixed up khajiit performance among classes while leaving the race as a whole lagging behind.

twing1_

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@twing1_ , and all that is so much nonsense. Because: 1) magicka khajiits weren't overperforming even on NBs/Templars (see parses from @susmitds ), and 2) after the latest chsnges, stamina khajiits have dropped to third place after orcs and their fellow hybrid dunmers (which, aha, are somehow allowed to perform better even though they are not "stamina" race). Relative buff it did to other classes than nb/templar doesn't mean a thing as long as it just mixed up khajiit performance among classes while leaving the race as a whole lagging behind.

It helped to standardize Khajit damage accross all classes (by narrowing the gap between Khajit nb/Temps and Khajit of all other classes).

Have you seen @susmitds new parses, after the change to critical damage?

Here is a hyper link to it, for your convenience:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458985/raid-buffed-dps-test-each-class-each-dd-race-pts-4-3-3/p1

Khajit are hardly falling behind, as they are consistently the 4th best dps option accross all classes, for both magicka and stamina. They are also within 1k DPS of the top dps race for every class, for both magicka and stamina.

It is true, they are never seated as the top DPS parsing race for any of the classes in either magicka or stamina, but I feel this is quite intended, as they have become a hybrid race, capable of playing both stamina and magicka effectively. This is the same reason the other hybrid race, dunmer, is never seated at the top as well (as it is statistically overshadowed by 125 max magicka/stamina by altmer/orc, respectively).

The reason why Khajit are parsing lower than dunmer on both sides, magicka and stamina, is because they have access to sustain, and dunmer does not. This is the intended tradeoff ZOS is going for: races with sustain hold lower max damage potential than the "pure damage" races that have no sustain. It makes sense from a risk/reward perspective, as well. Having sustain gives you some leeway in your rotations and requires less perfection, so it is easier to play. Conversely, having no sustain requires a greater difficulty in playing, and as such should be compensated with some very slight reward to max damage potential (otherwise, why play a no-sustain race over a sustain race, if they both parse the same numbers?).

Khajit are sitting in a very nice spot right now.

John_Falstaff

@twing1_ , 4th best among... remind me how many races in the game? You know, that's a very smooth way to say 'mediocre', I do appreciate the wording. Should I remind that there's 2k dps in total between meta (altmer / breton / dunmer / orc) and no racials whatsoever? So basically, khajiits get half the advantage from their racial passives as the races on top.

Oh, and what a load of rubbish, to say "they have become a hybrid race" to justify khajiit performance when another hybrid race, dunmer, performs better as both magicka and stamina. And no, khajiit's meager 85 sustain - parses do reflect sustain too, mind - cannot be easily exchanged for damage; "but they're good for newbies" is not any kind of argument when it comes to balancing potential of races. Orc or dunmer can trade their stats for sustain, giving away their damage for less risk - while khajiits cannot easily do the same thing, it's one-way road. 85 sustain is a meager boon for twice as weak damage boost - choice of race is just as no-brainer now as it was before, just positions shuffled, and khajiits stayed "okay-ish".

Khajiits are not in any sort of nice spot. They're a lost opportunity.

twing1_

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@twing1_ , 4th best among... remind me how many races in the game? You know, that's a very smooth way to say 'mediocre', I do appreciate the wording. Should I remind that there's 2k dps in total between meta (altmer / breton / dunmer / orc) and no racials whatsoever? So basically, khajiits get half the advantage from their racial passives as the races on top.

Oh, and what a load of rubbish, to say "they have become a hybrid race" to justify khajiit performance when another hybrid race, dunmer, performs better as both magicka and stamina. And no, khajiit's meager 85 sustain - parses do reflect sustain too, mind - cannot be easily exchanged for damage; "but they're good for newbies" is not any kind of argument when it comes to balancing potential of races. Orc or dunmer can trade their stats for sustain, giving away their damage for less risk - while khajiits cannot easily do the same thing, it's one-way road. 85 sustain is a meager boon for twice as weak damage boost - choice of race is just as no-brainer now as it was before, just positions shuffled, and khajiits stayed "okay-ish".

Khajiits are not in any sort of nice spot. They're a lost opportunity.

Should Khajit be the top dps spot? I'm having trouble finding lore reflecting this.

In traditional TES lore, the top warrior races (presumably stamina dps) are redguards nords and orcs.

The top mages are altmer Breton and dunmer.

Khajit have always been portrayed as sneaky rogues/thieves, which I feel is adequately portrayed by their bonuses to stealth and their emphasis on criticals. They even maintain endgame PvE dps viability too, as a difference of ~1k dps is negligible, as human error would likely account for a higher variance than this.

From a strictly gameplay balance perspective, I believe ZOS has done a pretty good job keeping each race's dps parses competitive. And in the instances wherr some aren't the top seat (aka aby race besides orc or altmer), each race has a unique benefit to make up for it (Khajit stealth focus and hybrid utility).

This is of course, for the most part. Some races I feel are lagging behind even in this regard (argonians seem pigeonholed into being sub-par healers), but I feel Khajit is in a good spot.

I'm curious to know where you would have them ranked in dps parses, always the top seat? Sometimes the top seat? Always number 2? I don't know where they would need to be for you to be satisfied.

But for me, with a consistent #4 ranking in both magicka and stamina dps accross all classes (less than 1k below the top seat) and also unique bonuses to reflect their lore as stealthy rogues, Khajit are not a problem for me.

Edit: added much more substance

John_Falstaff

@twing1_ , now that word 'lore' was pronounced, I know that you're totally really not biased at all. ^^ Why dunmers should be top dps spot both as magicka and stamina? Why redguards (oh so mighty warriors) are behind even khajiits right now for that matter? Why argonians (lot of them assassins) got little to none damage passives? Why nords aren't mighty warriors as they're supposed to be? The word 'balancing' implies that there are no clearly defined outliers. Khajiits just should perform on par with other races as opposed to lagging behind. Implying that I want them to be top dps as opposed to equal is putting words in my mouth, so let's not; you said that, not I.

Edit: let's cut with that lore bull. It just tells me that you have a horse in this race, doesn't add credibility to your reasoning.

twing1_

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@twing1_ , now that word 'lore' was pronounced, I know that you're totally really not biased at all. ^^ Why dunmers should be top dps spot both as magicka and stamina? Why redguards (oh so mighty warriors) are behind even khajiits right now for that matter? Why argonians (lot of them assassins) got little to none damage passives? Why nords aren't mighty warriors as they're supposed to be? The word 'balancing' implies that there are no clearly defined outliers. Khajiits just should perform on par with other races as opposed to lagging behind. Implying that I want them to be top dps as opposed to equal is putting words in my mouth, so let's not; you said that, not I.

Yes my apologies I was in the middle of editing my last post when you responded with this. My initial post was a bit reactionary.

I think it's important to note that Khajits pulling ahead of more races than they are lagging behind. The stamina races they are falling behind are orc, dunmer, redguard. The magicka races they are falling behind are altmer, Breton, dunmer.

For the most part, I feel this reflects traditional elder scrolls lore. Notable exceptions are, as you've mentioned, Nord (as they should be competing for top stamina dps spot) and argonian (which should be up to par with Khajit and the other races that aren't known as the "greatest warriors" or "greatest mages".

But as far as Khajit go, they are almost exactly where they need to be.

John_Falstaff

@twing1_ , no worries; figures you were adding while I've been in the process of replying to the first sentence.

And thing is, lore does not enter into this, because it has nothing to do with ESO game mechanics. We can argue there are magic khajiits (lore has that, magic helped khajiits win the war), any number of things, but it's all irrelevant, because it's MMO, and different activities have different weight in it. Thieving is a tiny part of the game, unrelated to majority of content. Putting on Mechanical Acuity and ganking in Cyrodiil cannot be called a real niche for a whole race. And so on, and so forth. The purpose of racial balancing is to make races be competitive where it matters. Lore can live in 'flavor' passives just fine, bu t not in ones that affect game mechanics. Right now, it is not done well. And unless new combat team will establish new rules, we won't see any improvements for half a year or more.

Tommy_The_Gun

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Nord
I hate that Nord is shoehorned into Tanks but I am at a complete loss in how to improve their performance in a way that make it more universally appealing with that Ultimate Regen buff. It's a great buff for Nord but at the same time, its something that is just unbalanced, even with it's pitiful 0.5 calculated amount because it makes the race only viable as a Tank without really opening up other avenues for Nord to do much else but be a Tank.. While my changes aren't the best, I just wanted Nord to be something other than a meat shield.

If I remember correctly, Nords used to have a passive that was related with food buff (in the past they had a useless passive that extended duration of food buff by x%).
So it got me thinking... what if they had a passive that increases the effectiveness of food buff by x% ?
It could make them very flexible since there is a s**t of various food & drink buffs with different effects.

What do you think ?

twing1_

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@twing1_ , no worries; figures you were adding while I've been in the process of replying to the first sentence.

And thing is, lore does not enter into this, because it has nothing to do with ESO game mechanics. We can argue there are magic khajiits (lore has that, magic helped khajiits win the war), any number of things, but it's all irrelevant, because it's MMO, and different activities have different weight in it. Thieving is a tiny part of the game, unrelated to majority of content. Putting on Mechanical Acuity and ganking in Cyrodiil cannot be called a real niche for a whole race. And so on, and so forth. The purpose of racial balancing is to make races be competitive where it matters. Lore can live in 'flavor' passives just fine, bu t not in ones that affect game mechanics. Right now, it is not done well. And unless new combat team will establish new rules, we won't see any improvements for half a year or more.

Agreed, but I feel a less than 1k dps difference is competitive. Again, this is just considering all the races as damage dealers, on both the magicka and stamina side of things.

When you take into account the other roles in the game, every race has expertise and drawbacks. For example, altmer don't make for good tanks because they are lacking in health, stamina, and stamina restore (because when they are specced for a tank, their stamina ought to be higher than their magicka for orbs/shards, so spell recharge would surely recharge magicka).

This is one example where Khajit have the edge over altmer, as their tri stat recovery and resource bonuses is comparatively stronger in this regard than the altmers passives. Does it make a huge difference? No, but it probably makes about as much of a difference as a 1k dps loss in damage dealer roles does.

Balance is about push and pull. When one race excels in an area, there must be drawbacks in other areas.

I feel Khajit, as they currently stand, are very well balanced. They are versatile. They are similar to the imperial race in this regard, serving as a jack of all trades and master of none. Where imperials are slightly better suited to be tanks, however, Khajit are equally slightly better suited to be damage dealers.

While it is true that, in a perfectly balanced equation, all races would be equally good at all aspects of the game, this would also require all races to have the exact same stats and passive abilities. And if that were the case, what would be the point in having different races in the first place?

I'm quite impressed with how ZOS's restructuring of races turned out, from a strictly gameplay balance perspective. There are a few notable exceptions in which I feel some races need to be brought up to speed (argonian) and others that need some identity work (altmer/dunmer) and even others that need better adherence to traditional lore (nord), but for the most part, the races seem relatively balanced to me, Khajit withstanding.

Edit: typos and grammar

John_Falstaff

@twing1_ , well, I can just reiterate - 1k dps is half of what racial passives give to the top damage races. Basically, khajiit is accurately between orcs/dunmers/altmers/bretons and having no racial passives. What-so-ever.

Now, I don't know how was that "about as much of a difference as 1k dps loss" was measured. 85 flat regen is not even a single jewelry glyph, it's half of it. More so, "but khajiit is a better tank now" is not a justification because balancing is done in relation to other races, and whole two new races came forward to shine as tanks now, and khajiit is lagging behind them too. But wait, maybe khajiits excel at healers? No, they lack raw stats, they lack regen (85 is a joke compared to bretons), and their passive - critical healing - implies that healers must crit; not something that is find in abundance on magicka, and surely not anything reliable. Bretons, altmers, argonians - all better healers.

"Jack of all traders, master of none" is not an argument when dunmers are also hybrid and master of all trades. Even if one for some reason wants a race with a hybrid option - not sure why - there is no reason to prefer khajiit over dunmer. I'm absolutely not impressed by ZOS. Feelings are one thing; numbers show the real state of things, and the state is not pretty.

twing1_

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@twing1_ , well, I can just reiterate - 1k dps is half of what racial passives give to the top damage races. Basically, khajiit is accurately between orcs/dunmers/altmers/bretons and having no racial passives. What-so-ever.

Now, I don't know how was that "about as much of a difference as 1k dps loss" was measured. 85 flat regen is not even a single jewelry glyph, it's half of it. More so, "but khajiit is a better tank now" is not a justification because balancing is done in relation to other races, and whole two new races came forward to shine as tanks now, and khajiit is lagging behind them too. But wait, maybe khajiits excel at healers? No, they lack raw stats, they lack regen (85 is a joke compared to bretons), and their passive - critical healing - implies that healers must crit; not something that is find in abundance on magicka, and surely not anything reliable. Bretons, altmers, argonians - all better healers.

"Jack of all traders, master of none" is not an argument when dunmers are also hybrid and master of all trades. Even if one for some reason wants a race with a hybrid option - not sure why - there is no reason to prefer khajiit over dunmer. I'm absolutely not impressed by ZOS. Feelings are one thing; numbers show the real state of things, and the state is not pretty.

I'd still argue that Khajit make better tanks than dunmer on account of their resource recovery (as the total sum of these equates to more than 2 set bonuses worth) and health bonus. And where Khajit are falling behind these other tank races (argonian, nord, imperial) as a tank, they are pulling ahead of them as a damage dealer.

There is no question about it: the role of the Khajit has changed. It is no longer strictly a stamina damage dealer. I feel most people are grading their current changes against this benchmark, and understandably so. It's where they've stood for so long.

So yes, strictly in the stamina damage dealer role, they have lost a slight amount of competitiveness relative to the other races. But they've gained versatility in all other areas, particularly as magicka damage dealers and admittedly more marginally as tanks (they are still nowhere near BiS tanks, as nords are nowhere near BiS damage dealers).

But this is the way ZOS has taken them, and imo it is balanced. It's just not what we are used to.

John_Falstaff

@twing1_ , I'm not sure what kind of argument would make. What is the point of khajiits making better tanks than dunmer, if dunmers have own thing to shine about - better damage than khajiit? Once again, dunmer is better as magick AND stamina damage dealer than khajiit, nords & co are better as tanks than khajiit, and you're yet to name a single role that would fit khajiit better than other races. Acuity-wielding ganker in Cyrodiil? That so?

Competitiveness is the point of balancing, and that's why it's clear now that the balancing is not done well. "But, but they're better than live" is as crappy argument as they come, because balancing, again, is done in relation to other races, and other races are again better at all those roles than khajiits. You're making a tank? There are better races than khajiits. You're making stamina DD? Better races than khajiit. Magicka DD? Better races than khajiit. Healer? Well you caught the drift. Character for doing Thieves Guild quests? Oh my, seems like we finally have found khajiit's raison d'etre...

So no. It is not balanced. You can bring lore in, you can argue that for any given role you can find race fitting even worse, but it's a logical fallacy - because for any given role, you can find better. It's exactly what we're used to - ZOS being incompetent to the core.

Aedrion

Aight lol.

Just a random player doing a better job at this than ZoS themselves.

twing1_

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Competitiveness is the point of balancing, and that's why it's clear now that the balancing is not done well. "But, but they're better than live" is as crappy argument as they come, because balancing, again, is done in relation to other races, and other races are again better at all those roles than khajiits. You're making a tank? There are better races than khajiits. You're making stamina DD? Better races than khajiit. Magicka DD? Better races than khajiit. Healer? Well you caught the drift. Character for doing Thieves Guild quests? Oh my, seems like we finally have found khajiit's raison d'etre...

So no. It is not balanced.

Okay, we will agree to disagree.

I don't think that every race needs to be the best at any particular role to be considered competitive. If this is the case, then there can be only four competitive races: the top stamina dps race, the top magicka dps race, the top tank race and the top healer race. This logic would invalidate the other 6 races. And in terms of the current racial passives (as the changes are now officially live), this would restrict the competitive races to be altmer, orc, breton, and nord.

This would be much more than a Khajit problem, and I fear the only solution would be to grant every race the exact same stats and racial passives, as inherent in having different passives is having different parses. This would mean that some race's parses would be higher than others, and some would be lower. Therefore again limiting the number of competitive races, by this definition, to 4.

I am willing to accept, however, that there is a range in parses that can be considered competitive. I would define this acceptable range by the bounds of human error. That is to say that if the difference between the average of two race's parses is less than the differences that can be found between individual parses of the same race due to forgiveable human error, then those races are competitive.

Seeing as Khajit on average are parsing only 1k dps lower than the top damage dealing races, and that human error can easily account for 1k dps difference in parsing (especially when the values are as high as 60k dps), I would label Khajit as competitive.

Some would even make the argument that even having no racials (as they are just 2k shy of the top damage dealing races) would fall into this competitive category as well. And if that's the case, I say well done ZOS.

It was their stated intention to bridge the gap between races to allow for a greater variety of competitive builds for each race, and it appears that is exactly what they've done.

Of course, I still have concerns regarding some of the races being relatively pigeonholed into certain roles compared to others (argonian) and some identity issues (magicka altmer/magicka dunmer) and even lore related concerns (nord), but those are for another discussion.

But as far as the cats go, in my books, they are competitive in multiple roles.

John_Falstaff

@twing1_ , you forgot the option of making them equal - which is the ultimate goal of balancing. Sure, it's nice when they also fulfill their role in their unique style, but equal efficiency is still the goal, the rest is all embellishments. Making several races equally performant at a given role is not anything unusual to think about.

And yes, yes - giving equal passives (or removing passives altogether, or making them selectable as birth signs, or something along those lines) is an option, I don't know why it's mentioned as anything bad. I've always been a proponent of detaching performance-related passives from races. Flavor, not related to competitive element - that's okay. But competitive passives only harm the game.

And I fear that no, 1k is measured with enough degree of precision, and it's not within margin of error; in fact, the whole spread between "top race" and "no racial" is 2k, and that makes 1k a big difference. Mind, right now, you, yourself, saying that argonian is "pigeonholed" into other roles, but you're saying that despite the fact that argonian and orc/altmer differ by less than 2k damage on parses. How so? 2k damage of argonian - and argonian is pigeonholed, but 1k of khajiit - and khajiit is okay? Choose one.

Can agree to disagree, of course. My books are different, and this is my argumentation.

twing1_

John_Falstaff wrote: »

And I fear that no, 1k is measured with enough degree of precision, and it's not within margin of error; in fact, the whole spread between "top race" and "no racial" is 2k, and that makes 1k a big difference. Mind, right now, you, yourself, saying that argonian is "pigeonholed" into other roles, but you're saying that despite the fact that argonian and orc/altmer differ by less than 2k damage on parses. How so? 2k damage of argonian - and argonian is pigeonholed, but 1k of khajiit - and khajiit is okay? Choose one.

1k, and even 2k dps difference could definitely be accounted for by human error. Even the graphs I shared earlier depict this, with some differences between individual parses within the same race and class jumping up to as high as 4k dps.

My qualm with argonian isn't regarding their dps numbers, as I do believe that even without racial passives, a difference of 2k dps is close to nothing. And imho, argonians shouldn't even try to compete for a top dps position, as their lore and stats in prior TES games have emphasized that they have minimal bonuses to both magic and physical combat. They instead relied more on alteration magic and stealth.

Their proficiency in alteration magic is being properly reflected by their bonus to healing done, but the stamina side of the equation is being ignored. If it were up to me, I would give them 1000 stamina in place of some of their healing done, or another set bonus that helps them in this regard. It doesn't even have to affect their dps parses, as long as it diversified their set bonuses a little more. Having all three of their set bonuses devoted to the same set bonus (healing done) is far out of line relative to the other races, as having 2 set bonuses of the same type is the established maximum for all other races (ex/ 258 spell damage, 258 stamina recovery, etc).

I also have concerns regarding the strength of 2% healing done as a set bonus (even for item sets in the game, and not just in terms of argonian passives). But I digress..

And yes, making all the races equal is the best way to go about it. But again, I fear that realistically this is only possible by eliminating racial passives altogether or giving all the races the exact same passives.

John_Falstaff

@twing1_ , let's not; many people have tested it, including @susmitds , Liko and others - selecting parses and averaging over many samples.

So, concluding, you feel that khajiits are balanced because they got racial passives 'befitting' their lore that does not prescribe them to be good at anything, and you similarly feel that argonians got pigeonholed because they didn't get passives diverse enough to reflect them being stealthy combatants. In other words, your notion of balance does not include competitive element but is rather based on how each race feels in regard to your idea of lore. I don't think we have any common ground then, because my idea of "in good place" implies that races should be competitive. You should have said from the get-go that you're saying that khajiits are in good place because you feel like they don't deserve better place lore-wise, and you have own idea of balancing that is based on feelings. What was the point bringing numbers, and then declaring that we should ignore the numbers because you feel this race is okay and this one isn't. Would've saved us some time.

twing1_

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@twing1_ , let's not; many people have tested it, including @susmitds , Liko and others - selecting parses and averaging over many samples.

So, concluding, you feel that khajiits are balanced because they got racial passives 'befitting' their lore that does not prescribe them to be good at anything, and you similarly feel that argonians got pigeonholed because they didn't get passives diverse enough to reflect them being stealthy combatants. In other words, your notion of balance does not include competitive element but is rather based on how each race feels in regard to your idea of lore. I don't think we have any common ground then, because my idea of "in good place" implies that races should be competitive. You should have said from the get-go that you're saying that khajiits are in good place because you feel like they don't deserve better place lore-wise, and you have own idea of balancing that is based on feelings. What was the point bringing numbers, and then declaring that we should ignore the numbers because you feel this race is okay and this one isn't. Would've saved us some time.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I believe we have differing definitions of the word "competitive".

I've described my definition:

twing1_ wrote: »

I don't think that every race needs to be the best at any particular role to be considered competitive.
...
I am willing to accept, however, that there is a range in parses that can be considered competitive. I would define this acceptable range by the bounds of human error. That is to say that if the difference between the average of two race's parses is less than the differences that can be found between individual parses of the same race due to forgiveable human error, then those races are competitive.

And what I understand about your view of competitive is that in order for races to be competitive, they must have identical dps numbers.

I just have a broader range of dps parses I am willing to accept as competitive (being within ~2k dps to me is competitive, as on 60k dps parses this is about a ~3% damage differential). I feel a difference of 3% damage is competitive. Of course, a difference of 0% damage would be even more competitive, but I fear that in order to reach these numbers racial passives and diversity would have to be wiped out completely. I don't think there is truth behind "separate but equal".

So, in order to avoid doing that, I am okay with classifying the races as they currently are (all within a 3% damage differential) as competitive.

In the case of the Khajit, they are only separated by about half of that (~1.5%) so they are even more competitive than other races on my scale. They also offer more utility (admittedly marginal) to help them in other roles compared to the other top-parsing dps races, as compensation for their ~1.5% less damage.

As for argonians, I'm merely making an observation that they are the only race that received 3 of the exact same set bonus, while every other race received 2 of the same set bonus at maximum, and in most cases less. They seem to be an outlier in this regard.