State of Hawaii introduces anti-gambling restrictions on video games

LegacyDM

@ZOS_GinaBruno

First off, this has not been passed yet. It’s been introduced. However, it shows the direction some states are moving.

BLUF: loot boxes is a form of gambling. Video games that offer digital rewards through the payment for loot type boxes cannot he sold to individuals under 21.

Now before y’all crazies and jump in and slam Hawaii, don’t bother. That’s not the point of this post. The point of this post is to bring it to Zos attention and have a civil debate on the anti-gambling measures and perception on loot boxes the states are starting to adopt.

https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2018/bills/HB2686_.HTM

Discuss.

Skwor

Read the legislation. As written it will not impact ESO crates at all.

To simply cover it.

1. The crates have no mechanism to cash out which is specifically mentioned in the legislation.
2. The legislation only limits the sale of the game itself to those over 21, it does not limit the sale of loot crates.

Just those two points alone renders the whole issue moot. There is a bit more making it a non issue for ESO but I'll leave that to you to work out.

Zathras

LegacyDM wrote: »

The point of this post is to bring it to Zos attention

They know, and Gina has nothing to do with it.

This is more a matter for their monetization department. They are fully aware of what they are doing, and will only change their model if legally forced to. Also, no one from ZOS is going to comment, aside from moderation.

Suddwrath

Skwor wrote: »

Read the legislation. As written it will not impact ESO crates at all.

I don't believe OP's post was addressing Crown Crates specifically or that Hawaii is banning loot boxes, but rather the general direction some countries/states are beginning to take loot boxes in video games by considering them forms of gambling. The legislation emphasized numerous times how it can be addicting and one of the biggest issues surrounding loot boxes is that it can affect children. The age restriction is a measure to protect children from that.

jazsper77

Skwor wrote: »

Read the legislation. As written it will not impact ESO crates at all.

To simply cover it.

1. The crates have no mechanism to cash out which is specifically mentioned in the legislation.
2. The legislation only limits the sale of the game itself to those over 21, it does not limit the sale of loot crates.

Just those two points alone renders the whole issue moot. There is a bit more making it a non issue for ESO but I'll leave that to you to work out.

Oh look the white knight wanna be lawyer who thinks he knows Law. Lmfao

Skwor

SaltySudd wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Read the legislation. As written it will not impact ESO crates at all.

I don't believe OP's post was addressing Crown Crates specifically or that Hawaii is banning loot boxes, but rather the general direction some countries/states are beginning to take loot boxes in video games by considering them forms of gambling. The legislation emphasized numerous times how it can be addicting and one of the biggest issues surrounding loot boxes is that it can affect children. The age restriction is a measure to protect children from that.

And if it has no bearing on ESO crates then there is no point for the discussion. I understood the OPs intent.

My position has long been that ESO crates do not fit well into the gambling definition and this legislation would demonstrate that. Also even if interpreted extremely broadly to require the over 21 sale for ESO it still has 0 impact on crates.

As I said the point is moot.

NordSwordnBoard

Skwor wrote: »

Read the legislation. As written it will not impact ESO crates at all.

To simply cover it.

1. The crates have no mechanism to cash out which is specifically mentioned in the legislation.
2. The legislation only limits the sale of the game itself to those over 21, it does not limit the sale of loot crates.

Just those two points alone renders the whole issue moot. There is a bit more making it a non issue for ESO but I'll leave that to you to work out.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any retailer to sell to any person under twenty-one years of age a video game that contains a system of further purchasing:

(1) A randomized reward or rewards; or [Crown Crates]

(2) A virtual item which can be redeemed to directly or indirectly receive a randomized reward or rewards. [Crowns -> Crown Crates]

In Hawaii this proposal would prevent people under 21 from buying this game. Gambling afaik is illegal in all of Hawaii, so this would mean they don't consider loot boxes gambling - technically speaking.

Skwor

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Read the legislation. As written it will not impact ESO crates at all.

To simply cover it.

1. The crates have no mechanism to cash out which is specifically mentioned in the legislation.
2. The legislation only limits the sale of the game itself to those over 21, it does not limit the sale of loot crates.

Just those two points alone renders the whole issue moot. There is a bit more making it a non issue for ESO but I'll leave that to you to work out.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any retailer to sell to any person under twenty-one years of age a video game that contains a system of further purchasing:

(1) A randomized reward or rewards; or [Crown Crates]

(2) A virtual item which can be redeemed to directly or indirectly receive a randomized reward or rewards. [Crowns -> Crown Crates]

In Hawaii this proposal would prevent people under 21 from buying this game. Gambling afaik is illegal in all of Hawaii, so this would mean they don't consider loot boxes gambling - technically speaking.

Uhmm that is exactly what I said. What was your point?

Suddwrath

Skwor wrote: »

And if it has no bearing on ESO crates then there is no point for the discussion.

But it does have bearing on ESO's Crown Crates since those are loot boxes which is exactly what this legislation was addressing.

House Bill 2727/Senate Bill 3025 and House Bill 2686/Senate Bill 3024 were originally intended to:

1. Prohibit the sale of games involving loot boxes to buyers under 21 years of age.
2. To require game publishers and developers to feature a warning label which read "Warning: contains in-game purchases and gambling-like mechanisms which may be harmful or addictive."
3. To require game publishers to disclose the odds of winning the random loot since it is possible for developers to manipulate the system so that it is not entirely random chance.

validifyedneb18_ESO

You assumed two things incorrectly; That a community manager has ANY control over the monetization strategy of a game.

The second assumption is assuming that a large company like ZOS, and Bethesda as the much, much, (much) larger publisher, do not already know about this and have an ongoing financial strategy to deal with this way ahead of time.

Bethesda is a LTD, they may not have stocks for sale on the stock exchanges but they DO have stockholders, a CFO, and private financial reports which needs to outline ongoing strategies for preexisting games, including addressing how things like regional laws may effect the profitability of a game.

Gnortranermara

I'm a capitalist. I'll always believe 100% that the proper market solution to most slimy business practices to take your business elsewhere and let that business suffer the income loss they deserve. Unless the slime rises to the level of actual fraud (and loot boxes don't, unless the odds are misrepresented), grown-ass adults don't need government nannies interfering in our voluntary transactions. That said, I do agree with keeping such games out of children's hands. The age limit should be 18 instead of 21, but otherwise this is a pretty good piece of legislation.

OP's interpretation is correct: this law would apply to ESO if passed, and would restrict retailers from selling the game or Crown gift cards to minors.

Skwor

jazsper77 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Read the legislation. As written it will not impact ESO crates at all.

To simply cover it.

1. The crates have no mechanism to cash out which is specifically mentioned in the legislation.
2. The legislation only limits the sale of the game itself to those over 21, it does not limit the sale of loot crates.

Just those two points alone renders the whole issue moot. There is a bit more making it a non issue for ESO but I'll leave that to you to work out.

Oh look the white knight wanna be lawyer who thinks he knows Law. Lmfao

LOL I am quite far from a white knight for ESO. But whatever, if you can go find a lawyer, you will likely find what I wrote to be consistent with his/her opinion.

Pevey

I think OP is right, this is a trend that will continue. Two anecdotal data points, do with them what you will:

1) I know a couple who split up because of a gambling problem. All the classic issues: Promising no more, and then spending money they didn't have. Emotional ups and downs from losses. Money problems and money fights. Real children impacted. Yep, not a casino or online poker. Loot boxes.

2) Last Christmas at a party, our local state assemblyman told me that the issue parents bring up to him more than any other right now is...you guessed it...loot boxes. Wow. More than: high cost of health insurance. More than: education. More than: sugary drinks. More than: vaping. More than: anything else. Wow.

Cpt_Teemo

Loot boxes are addicting yes but very easy to drop, I used to buy a 15 crate pack every season but stopped doing that since I came back a year ago

Holycannoli

Skwor wrote: »

LOL I am quite far from a white knight for ESO. But whatever, if you can go find a lawyer, you find find what I wrote to be consistent with his/her opinion.

Sorry but you're wrong (edit: well now it's a question of semantics. So maybe wrong maybe not). It specifically mentions randomized rewards which is exactly what loot crates are. It doesn't prohibit them but it does restrict the sale of the games.

"§481B- Video games; restrictions. (a) It shall be unlawful for any retailer to sell to any person under twenty-one years of age a video game that contains a system of further purchasing:

(1) A randomized reward or rewards; or

(2) A virtual item which can be redeemed to directly or indirectly receive a randomized reward or rewards.

(b) For the purpose of this section:

"Retailer" means any person who offers video games for sale, including resale by the purchaser, through any means, including sales outlets, catalogs, or the Internet.

"Video game" means an object or device that stores recorded data or instructions, receives data or instructions generated by a person who uses it, and, by processing the data or instructions, creates an interactive game capable of being played, viewed, or experienced on or through a computer, gaming system, console, or other technology."

SECTION 3. New statutory material is underscored.

SECTION 4. This Act shall take effect upon its approval.

The real issue is whether any gaming company gives a hoot about restricted videogame sales in Hawaii.

I do hope these kinds of bills become popular. Never been a fan of the loot crate system. If you're going to offer items offer them for sale directly, and not for "limited time only". That's just as predatory, maybe even moreso.

NordSwordnBoard

Skwor wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Read the legislation. As written it will not impact ESO crates at all.

To simply cover it.

1. The crates have no mechanism to cash out which is specifically mentioned in the legislation.
2. The legislation only limits the sale of the game itself to those over 21, it does not limit the sale of loot crates.

Just those two points alone renders the whole issue moot. There is a bit more making it a non issue for ESO but I'll leave that to you to work out.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any retailer to sell to any person under twenty-one years of age a video game that contains a system of further purchasing:

(1) A randomized reward or rewards; or [Crown Crates]

(2) A virtual item which can be redeemed to directly or indirectly receive a randomized reward or rewards. [Crowns -> Crown Crates]

In Hawaii this proposal would prevent people under 21 from buying this game. Gambling afaik is illegal in all of Hawaii, so this would mean they don't consider loot boxes gambling - technically speaking.

Uhmm that is exactly what I said. What was your point?

No, it wasn't exactly what you said:

SaltySudd wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

And if it has no bearing on ESO crates then there is no point for the discussion.

But it does have bearing on ESO's Crown Crates since those are loot boxes which is exactly what this legislation was addressing.

House Bill 2727/Senate Bill 3025 and House Bill 2686/Senate Bill 3024 were originally intended to:

1. Prohibit the sale of games involving loot boxes to buyers under 21 years of age.
2. To require game publishers and developers to feature a warning label which read "Warning: contains in-game purchases and gambling-like mechanisms which may be harmful or addictive."
3. To require game publishers to disclose the odds of winning the random loot since it is possible for developers to manipulate the system so that it is not entirely random chance.

If this is passed in Hawaii, you will have to be 21 instead of 18 to buy the game. That impacts sales, and could set a precedent with other states.

Nestor

Since the items rewarded are virtual, it would be difficult to legislate out the Crown Crates, unfortunately.

Kagukan

I personally like the crates. I find it fun opening them up and seeing what I get. Sometimes its good, sometimes its junk. I have good self control though. For those that don't, crates could be a problem.

Skwor

Holycannoli wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

LOL I am quite far from a white knight for ESO. But whatever, if you can go find a lawyer, you find find what I wrote to be consistent with his/her opinion.

Sorry but you're wrong (edit: well now it's a question of semantics. So maybe wrong maybe not). It specifically mentions randomized rewards which is exactly what loot crates are. It doesn't prohibit them but it does restrict the sale of the games.

"§481B- Video games; restrictions. (a) It shall be unlawful for any retailer to sell to any person under twenty-one years of age a video game that contains a system of further purchasing:

(1) A randomized reward or rewards; or

(2) A virtual item which can be redeemed to directly or indirectly receive a randomized reward or rewards.

(b) For the purpose of this section:

"Retailer" means any person who offers video games for sale, including resale by the purchaser, through any means, including sales outlets, catalogs, or the Internet.

"Video game" means an object or device that stores recorded data or instructions, receives data or instructions generated by a person who uses it, and, by processing the data or instructions, creates an interactive game capable of being played, viewed, or experienced on or through a computer, gaming system, console, or other technology."

SECTION 3. New statutory material is underscored.

SECTION 4. This Act shall take effect upon its approval.

The real issue is whether any gaming company gives a hoot about restricted videogame sales in Hawaii.

I do hope these kinds of bills become popular. Never been a fan of the loot crate system. If you're going to offer items offer them for sale directly, and not for "limited time only". That's just as predatory, maybe even moreso.

PLEASE read what I wrote again. I said it could possibly limit the sale of the game but not crates. How was that wrong?

From a practical perspective it is a zero impact, parents or older siblings/relatives/friends will just buy the game for said minor, minor can still buy crates legally.

Skwor

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Read the legislation. As written it will not impact ESO crates at all.

To simply cover it.

1. The crates have no mechanism to cash out which is specifically mentioned in the legislation.
2. The legislation only limits the sale of the game itself to those over 21, it does not limit the sale of loot crates.

Just those two points alone renders the whole issue moot. There is a bit more making it a non issue for ESO but I'll leave that to you to work out.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any retailer to sell to any person under twenty-one years of age a video game that contains a system of further purchasing:

(1) A randomized reward or rewards; or [Crown Crates]

(2) A virtual item which can be redeemed to directly or indirectly receive a randomized reward or rewards. [Crowns -> Crown Crates]

In Hawaii this proposal would prevent people under 21 from buying this game. Gambling afaik is illegal in all of Hawaii, so this would mean they don't consider loot boxes gambling - technically speaking.

Uhmm that is exactly what I said. What was your point?

No, it wasn't exactly what you said:

SaltySudd wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

And if it has no bearing on ESO crates then there is no point for the discussion.

But it does have bearing on ESO's Crown Crates since those are loot boxes which is exactly what this legislation was addressing.

House Bill 2727/Senate Bill 3025 and House Bill 2686/Senate Bill 3024 were originally intended to:

1. Prohibit the sale of games involving loot boxes to buyers under 21 years of age.
2. To require game publishers and developers to feature a warning label which read "Warning: contains in-game purchases and gambling-like mechanisms which may be harmful or addictive."
3. To require game publishers to disclose the odds of winning the random loot since it is possible for developers to manipulate the system so that it is not entirely random chance.

If this is passed in Hawaii, you will have to be 21 instead of 18 to buy the game. That impacts sales, and could set a precedent with other states.

To repeat myself:
PLEASE read what I wrote again. I said it could possibly limit the sale of the game but not crates. How was that wrong?

From a practical perspective it is a zero impact, parents or older siblings/relatives/friends will just buy the game for said minor, minor can still buy crates legally.

Skwor

Nestor wrote: »

Since the items rewarded are virtual, it would be difficult to legislate out the Crown Crates, unfortunately.

Also in this case ESO crate rewards cannot be monitized which was part of the definition in the legislation. That is not a minor point.

MyKillv2.0

Pevey wrote: »

I think OP is right, this is a trend that will continue. Two anecdotal data points, do with them what you will:

1) I know a couple who split up because of a gambling problem. All the classic issues: Promising no more, and then spending money they didn't have. Emotional ups and downs from losses. Money problems and money fights. Real children impacted. Yep, not a casino or online poker. Loot boxes.

2) Last Christmas at a party, our local state assemblyman told me that the issue parents bring up to him more than any other right now is...you guessed it...loot boxes. Wow. More than: high cost of health insurance. More than: education. More than: sugary drinks. More than: vaping. More than: anything else. Wow.

Wow. If you bought that story..... I don't what to say. Wow.

Skwor

MyKillv2.0 wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

I think OP is right, this is a trend that will continue. Two anecdotal data points, do with them what you will:

1) I know a couple who split up because of a gambling problem. All the classic issues: Promising no more, and then spending money they didn't have. Emotional ups and downs from losses. Money problems and money fights. Real children impacted. Yep, not a casino or online poker. Loot boxes.

2) Last Christmas at a party, our local state assemblyman told me that the issue parents bring up to him more than any other right now is...you guessed it...loot boxes. Wow. More than: high cost of health insurance. More than: education. More than: sugary drinks. More than: vaping. More than: anything else. Wow.

Wow. If you bought that story..... I don't what to say. Wow.

Wait, does that mean you won't buy my bridge in Brooklyn? 😢

AlnilamE

So if this passes kids in Hawaii won't be able to buy Trading Card packs?

NordSwordnBoard

Skwor wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Read the legislation. As written it will not impact ESO crates at all.

To simply cover it.

1. The crates have no mechanism to cash out which is specifically mentioned in the legislation.
2. The legislation only limits the sale of the game itself to those over 21, it does not limit the sale of loot crates.

Just those two points alone renders the whole issue moot. There is a bit more making it a non issue for ESO but I'll leave that to you to work out.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any retailer to sell to any person under twenty-one years of age a video game that contains a system of further purchasing:

(1) A randomized reward or rewards; or [Crown Crates]

(2) A virtual item which can be redeemed to directly or indirectly receive a randomized reward or rewards. [Crowns -> Crown Crates]

In Hawaii this proposal would prevent people under 21 from buying this game. Gambling afaik is illegal in all of Hawaii, so this would mean they don't consider loot boxes gambling - technically speaking.

Uhmm that is exactly what I said. What was your point?

No, it wasn't exactly what you said:

SaltySudd wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

And if it has no bearing on ESO crates then there is no point for the discussion.

But it does have bearing on ESO's Crown Crates since those are loot boxes which is exactly what this legislation was addressing.

House Bill 2727/Senate Bill 3025 and House Bill 2686/Senate Bill 3024 were originally intended to:

1. Prohibit the sale of games involving loot boxes to buyers under 21 years of age.
2. To require game publishers and developers to feature a warning label which read "Warning: contains in-game purchases and gambling-like mechanisms which may be harmful or addictive."
3. To require game publishers to disclose the odds of winning the random loot since it is possible for developers to manipulate the system so that it is not entirely random chance.

If this is passed in Hawaii, you will have to be 21 instead of 18 to buy the game. That impacts sales, and could set a precedent with other states.

To repeat myself:
PLEASE read what I wrote again. I said it could possibly limit the sale of the game but not crates. How was that wrong?

From a practical perspective it is a zero impact, parents or older siblings/relatives/friends will just buy the game for said minor, minor can still but crates legally.

You're saying a 21+ rating will not negatively affect sales? Why would game makers censor their own games in order to get a lower age rating? Ever see the discussions about no children being in ESO? That's how what you said was wrong.

This is not moot, nor does it have zero impact if you say it can impact sales. You're missing the point that if they sell less games, they will sell less crates. I thought that much was obvious.

Holycannoli

AlnilamE wrote: »

So if this passes kids in Hawaii won't be able to buy Trading Card packs?

It says video game specifically so card games aren't included.

Holycannoli

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

You're saying a 21+ rating will not negatively affect sales? Why would game makers censor their own games in order to get a lower age rating? Ever see the discussions about no children being in ESO? That's how what you said was wrong.

This is not moot, nor does it have zero impact if you say it can impact sales. You're missing the point that if they sell less games, they will sell less crates. I thought that much was obvious.

It's only Hawaii so I doubt the impact on sales will amount to anything.

The question is whether this is only the beginning of a wider trend...

NordSwordnBoard

Skwor wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Since the items rewarded are virtual, it would be difficult to legislate out the Crown Crates, unfortunately.

Also in this case ESO crate rewards cannot be monitized which was part of the definition in the legislation. That is not a minor point.

Please read the legislation - as I pointed out to you in my first response:

(2) A virtual item which can be redeemed to directly or indirectly receive a randomized reward or rewards.

Crowns are a virtual item which can be redeemed to directly or indirectly receive a randomized reward like Crates or rewards like any cosmetic crown store item for sale.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Sorry to say but grown adults don’t need the government to help their own problems.

Skwor

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Read the legislation. As written it will not impact ESO crates at all.

To simply cover it.

1. The crates have no mechanism to cash out which is specifically mentioned in the legislation.
2. The legislation only limits the sale of the game itself to those over 21, it does not limit the sale of loot crates.

Just those two points alone renders the whole issue moot. There is a bit more making it a non issue for ESO but I'll leave that to you to work out.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any retailer to sell to any person under twenty-one years of age a video game that contains a system of further purchasing:

(1) A randomized reward or rewards; or [Crown Crates]

(2) A virtual item which can be redeemed to directly or indirectly receive a randomized reward or rewards. [Crowns -> Crown Crates]

In Hawaii this proposal would prevent people under 21 from buying this game. Gambling afaik is illegal in all of Hawaii, so this would mean they don't consider loot boxes gambling - technically speaking.

Uhmm that is exactly what I said. What was your point?

No, it wasn't exactly what you said:

SaltySudd wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

And if it has no bearing on ESO crates then there is no point for the discussion.

But it does have bearing on ESO's Crown Crates since those are loot boxes which is exactly what this legislation was addressing.

House Bill 2727/Senate Bill 3025 and House Bill 2686/Senate Bill 3024 were originally intended to:

1. Prohibit the sale of games involving loot boxes to buyers under 21 years of age.
2. To require game publishers and developers to feature a warning label which read "Warning: contains in-game purchases and gambling-like mechanisms which may be harmful or addictive."
3. To require game publishers to disclose the odds of winning the random loot since it is possible for developers to manipulate the system so that it is not entirely random chance.

If this is passed in Hawaii, you will have to be 21 instead of 18 to buy the game. That impacts sales, and could set a precedent with other states.

To repeat myself:
PLEASE read what I wrote again. I said it could possibly limit the sale of the game but not crates. How was that wrong?

From a practical perspective it is a zero impact, parents or older siblings/relatives/friends will just buy the game for said minor, minor can still but crates legally.

You're saying a 21+ rating will not negatively affect sales? Why would game makers censor their own games in order to get a lower age rating? Ever see the discussions about no children being in ESO? That's how what you said was wrong.

This is not moot, nor does it have zero impact if you say it can impact sales. You're missing the point that if they sell less games, they will sell less crates. I thought that much was obvious.

When has a game rated mature ever seriously impacted the volume of sales for a game? If anything it will improve the sales for the age group in question.

New sales are nice but I would guess ESO is not stuctured to a new sales model for its business stratagy.

And again it still does nothing to impact the sale of crates which is the real issue people are bothered with.

Royaji

ESO is already an "M" rated game. It should not be sold to minors as it is. So... what's the problem?