¿Should ZoS rework argonian passives?

Drako_Ei

As argonian stamDK i was always jelaous of Orc passives for pvp, i was expecting that to change with the rebalance announced, but argonians got nerfed and orcs got buffed, i know we get free race change tokens, but i dont want to change the character i have been playing for years to end this frustration, specially to the race i dislike the most (Orc). Should ZoS rework argonian passives? I cant be the only one frustrated about this.

idk

No (I play Argonian)

From what you say you would not like the Argonian passives regardless unless they made them to be like the Orc passives.

Then you create a poll where the question is very generic as though it would support trying to get Zos to change the Argonian passive to what you want, the Orc passives.

I am just going to give you the simple facts. Pretty much everyone wants something different so just saying you want something different for warm fuzzy reasons, which is what is done here, will fall on deaf ears with Zos, especially when you want the change to be something totally different than what it has been .

So sorry you want an Orc that looks like an Argonian but I doubt that is sufficient reasoning for Zos to make it happen.,

Silver_Strider

Yes (I play Argonian)

I would sacrifice this passive in a heartbeat because idiots swear up and down that it's some magic "I win" button on Argonians when all it does is breaks even with what other races have naturally. Absolutely anything would be better at this point. Hell, I'd settle for just reverting the passive back to the 12% passive it was prior to Morrowind, least no one complained about it then.

HatchetHaro

Yes (I play Argonian)

idk wrote: »

From what you say you would not like the Argonian passives regardless unless they made them to be like the Orc passives.

Then you create a poll where the question is very generic as though it would support trying to get Zos to change the Argonian passive to what you want, the Orc passives.

I am just going to give you the simple facts. Pretty much everyone wants something different so just saying you want something different for warm fuzzy reasons, which is what is done here, will fall on deaf ears with Zos, especially when you want the change to be something totally different than what it has been .

So sorry you want an Orc that looks like an Argonian but I doubt that is sufficient reasoning for Zos to make it happen.,

Then how about the reasoning that it is unfair for Argonians to be shoehorned into a healing role which other races are already better at anyway?

Perhaps the reasoning that Argonians fall way behind Nords and Imperials in terms of tanking because both of those races offer so much more group support and utility?

And maybe how their utility was completely gutted without a buff to the DPS that they are already lacking in which makes them (and Nords) the absolute worst races to DPS in?

Fact of the matter is that the way you play isn't the only way to play, but since other races can play the roles better than what Argonians were touted to be "good at", Argonians must at least receive some form of buff to maintain some semblance of balance.

Seraphayel

No (I play Argonian)

Players that chose Argonian before the changes knew what they could expect from the race. In that regard nothing changed.

I don't know why Argonian players were expecting buffs to DPS racials when there was no indication for that to happen (or to be necessary). Argonian was always about healing and their very strong utility passives and in that regard they are still excellent. They make great healers and tanks even after the changes and I couldn't care less if Bretons might be a little bit better due to sustain or whatever.

If you want to be competitive DPS wise you didn't pick Argonian to begin with. If 1-2k DPS matter that much for you your choice already was Altmer, Dunmer or whatever.

To say Argonians are shoehorned into healing or being one of the "worst" DPS races is a very narrow-minded view on the race that still will be an excellent pick for PvP.

Don't get me wrong, they could increase Stamina/Magicka a bit or transform the healing passive into Spell Damage but besides that Argonians were not to expect significant DPS racials or changes in that regard.

rabidmyers

Yes (I play Argonian)

^

BattleAxe

Yes (I play Argonian)

I do agree argonian passives need looked at but here is the problem argonians face they were nerfed this patch becuz of over performance in pvp which in turn has effected argonians in pve. in order to balance argonians is gonna have to be very thought out becuz if you buff certain passives too much u risk putting argonians back into overperforming in either pve or pvp making it overshadow other races. But to play devils advocate for argonians as either healer or tank their passives actually allow them to equip more group utility based sets and be just as competitive as a tank now as a healer Bretons do have sustain to their advantage but if you build your argonian correctly you will sustain just as well

Mudcrabber

Yes (I play Argonian)

I think the Resourceful passive looks most useful in no-CP pvp. A lot of other passives see the most benefit at higher CP, but Resourceful is pretty flat bonus at any level, so we have all these no-CP battleground players who think it's really good.

I don't play no-CP, or even much pvp, so it's not very useful to me and I'd gladly trade it for a bit more pve dps.

3 years ago I thought I'd make an Argonian healer, but as time went by it became a dps instead. And it was also my crafter so it eventually became my main. Next week I think it'll become a Khajiit, being my first chance to get a buff without losing a tail. A door closes, a window opens.

Silver_Strider

Yes (I play Argonian)

Seraphayel wrote: »

Players that chose Argonian before the changes knew what they could expect from the race. In that regard nothing changed.

I don't know why Argonian players were expecting buffs to DPS racials when there was no indication for that to happen (or to be necessary). Argonian was always about healing and their very strong utility passives and in that regard they are still excellent. They make great healers and tanks even after the changes and I couldn't care less if Bretons might be a little bit better due to sustain or whatever.

If you want to be competitive DPS wise you didn't pick Argonian to begin with. If 1-2k DPS matter that much for you your choice already was Altmer, Dunmer or whatever.

To say Argonians are shoehorned into healing or being one of the "worst" DPS races is a very narrow-minded view on the race that still will be an excellent pick for PvP.

Don't get me wrong, they could increase Stamina/Magicka a bit or transform the healing passive into Spell Damage but besides that Argonians were not to expect significant DPS racials or changes in that regard.

There was no indication that Khajiit would be made into valid Magic DPS either but it happened anyways so why is this even an argument?

Olupajmibanan

No (I dont play Argonian)

Have you ever heard of Infused jewelry with pot CD reduction glyphs?

Seraphayel

No (I play Argonian)

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Players that chose Argonian before the changes knew what they could expect from the race. In that regard nothing changed.

I don't know why Argonian players were expecting buffs to DPS racials when there was no indication for that to happen (or to be necessary). Argonian was always about healing and their very strong utility passives and in that regard they are still excellent. They make great healers and tanks even after the changes and I couldn't care less if Bretons might be a little bit better due to sustain or whatever.

If you want to be competitive DPS wise you didn't pick Argonian to begin with. If 1-2k DPS matter that much for you your choice already was Altmer, Dunmer or whatever.

To say Argonians are shoehorned into healing or being one of the "worst" DPS races is a very narrow-minded view on the race that still will be an excellent pick for PvP.

Don't get me wrong, they could increase Stamina/Magicka a bit or transform the healing passive into Spell Damage but besides that Argonians were not to expect significant DPS racials or changes in that regard.

There was no indication that Khajiit would be made into valid Magic DPS either but it happened anyways so why is this even an argument?

True that. The important point is that Khajiit never were a "utility" race like Argonians, they were a pure damage race. Same with Dunmer. That's why they're still an excellent damage race but now for Magicka and Stamina builds. In the end nothing changed for both races when it comes to their role disposition.

Argonians never were a damage race. That's why this is an argument. Argonian was no DPS race and won't be in the future.

You can choose, sustain or damage or utility. Those are the three categories for races (with Khajiit being a weaker mix of damage and sustain at the same time).

Argonians are a utility (tank) race and there was no indication for any changes in that regard.

Ozby

Yes (I play Argonian)

Seraphayel wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Players that chose Argonian before the changes knew what they could expect from the race. In that regard nothing changed.

I don't know why Argonian players were expecting buffs to DPS racials when there was no indication for that to happen (or to be necessary). Argonian was always about healing and their very strong utility passives and in that regard they are still excellent. They make great healers and tanks even after the changes and I couldn't care less if Bretons might be a little bit better due to sustain or whatever.

If you want to be competitive DPS wise you didn't pick Argonian to begin with. If 1-2k DPS matter that much for you your choice already was Altmer, Dunmer or whatever.

To say Argonians are shoehorned into healing or being one of the "worst" DPS races is a very narrow-minded view on the race that still will be an excellent pick for PvP.

Don't get me wrong, they could increase Stamina/Magicka a bit or transform the healing passive into Spell Damage but besides that Argonians were not to expect significant DPS racials or changes in that regard.

There was no indication that Khajiit would be made into valid Magic DPS either but it happened anyways so why is this even an argument?

True that. The important point is that Khajiit never were a "utility" race like Argonians, they were a pure damage race. Same with Dunmer. That's why they're still an excellent damage race but now for Magicka and Stamina builds. In the end nothing changed for both races when it comes to their role disposition.

Argonians never were a damage race. That's why this is an argument. Argonian was no DPS race and won't be in the future.

You can choose, sustain or damage or utility. Those are the three categories for races (with Khajiit being a weaker mix of damage and sustain at the same time).

Argonians are a utility (tank) race and there was no indication for any changes in that regard.

How is this balance though?

phantasmalD

Yes (I play Argonian)

I personally mainly just want argonians to be less lorebreaking.
The +1000 HP contradicts the - Endurance of earlier games and argos never had such a huge Restoration affinity.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Players that chose Argonian before the changes knew what they could expect from the race. In that regard nothing changed.

I don't know why Argonian players were expecting buffs to DPS racials when there was no indication for that to happen (or to be necessary). Argonian was always about healing and their very strong utility passives and in that regard they are still excellent. They make great healers and tanks even after the changes and I couldn't care less if Bretons might be a little bit better due to sustain or whatever.

If you want to be competitive DPS wise you didn't pick Argonian to begin with. If 1-2k DPS matter that much for you your choice already was Altmer, Dunmer or whatever.

To say Argonians are shoehorned into healing or being one of the "worst" DPS races is a very narrow-minded view on the race that still will be an excellent pick for PvP.

Don't get me wrong, they could increase Stamina/Magicka a bit or transform the healing passive into Spell Damage but besides that Argonians were not to expect significant DPS racials or changes in that regard.

There was no indication that Khajiit would be made into valid Magic DPS either but it happened anyways so why is this even an argument?

True that. The important point is that Khajiit never were a "utility" race like Argonians, they were a pure damage race. Same with Dunmer. That's why they're still an excellent damage race but now for Magicka and Stamina builds. In the end nothing changed for both races when it comes to their role disposition.

Argonians never were a damage race. That's why this is an argument. Argonian was no DPS race and won't be in the future.

You can choose, sustain or damage or utility. Those are the three categories for races (with Khajiit being a weaker mix of damage and sustain at the same time).

Argonians are a utility (tank) race and there was no indication for any changes in that regard.

Tanks can make use of any of the passives and make up for the difference with gear, any race can be a tank, some are just more straightforward than others.
Healers are pretty much DPS wearing support armor, any race that can be a mag DD can also be a mag healer, but reverse isn't necessarily true.

Khajiit is probably the worse race to use as defense against increasing argonian flexibility as they are the one race whose racial got explicitly changed to also affect healing.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Have you ever heard of Infused jewelry with pot CD reduction glyphs?

A net loss if you are using anything but tripots.

Seraphayel

No (I play Argonian)

Ozby wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Players that chose Argonian before the changes knew what they could expect from the race. In that regard nothing changed.

I don't know why Argonian players were expecting buffs to DPS racials when there was no indication for that to happen (or to be necessary). Argonian was always about healing and their very strong utility passives and in that regard they are still excellent. They make great healers and tanks even after the changes and I couldn't care less if Bretons might be a little bit better due to sustain or whatever.

If you want to be competitive DPS wise you didn't pick Argonian to begin with. If 1-2k DPS matter that much for you your choice already was Altmer, Dunmer or whatever.

To say Argonians are shoehorned into healing or being one of the "worst" DPS races is a very narrow-minded view on the race that still will be an excellent pick for PvP.

Don't get me wrong, they could increase Stamina/Magicka a bit or transform the healing passive into Spell Damage but besides that Argonians were not to expect significant DPS racials or changes in that regard.

There was no indication that Khajiit would be made into valid Magic DPS either but it happened anyways so why is this even an argument?

True that. The important point is that Khajiit never were a "utility" race like Argonians, they were a pure damage race. Same with Dunmer. That's why they're still an excellent damage race but now for Magicka and Stamina builds. In the end nothing changed for both races when it comes to their role disposition.

Argonians never were a damage race. That's why this is an argument. Argonian was no DPS race and won't be in the future.

You can choose, sustain or damage or utility. Those are the three categories for races (with Khajiit being a weaker mix of damage and sustain at the same time).

Argonians are a utility (tank) race and there was no indication for any changes in that regard.

How is this balance though?

Please define balance in this regard.

When it's about balanced, the respective damage races are balanced quite well after the upcoming changes. It's just hard to take "utility" races like Imperial, Nord or Argonian into that equation because could cannot calculate DPS for utility/defensive passives.

SodanTok

No (I play Argonian)

No I have argonian for argonian passives andI have different races for their different passives and I may choose to race change some races for their passives but in the end I want argonian passives so I have argonian and I dont want orc passives and If i wanted Orc passives i would make orc not claim my argonian needs to have orc passives.

IzzyStardust

The post

SodanTok wrote: »

No I have argonian for argonian passives andI have different races for their different passives and I may choose to race change some races for their passives but in the end I want argonian passives so I have argonian and I dont want orc passives and If i wanted Orc passives i would make orc not claim my argonian needs to have orc passives.

is why.

ZOS needs to just stop messing everything up.

Off to do psijic again, because I had to make a Breton healer.

No I am NOT race changing a character I've had longer than many folks have had this game/their adulthood/their kids/their relationships/their pets. Just never gonna happen.

Stx

Yes (I dont play Argonian)

I have never been an argonian player, but looking at the racials on paper I hate them. Argonians are forced to play a healer or a tank to optimize their racials, and even then there are other races that compete or outshine them in those roles. On top of that, having a main racial tied to chugging potions turns me off.

I would completely change argonian racials to fit their origins of regeneration and speed / agility.

Chrlynsch

Yes (I play Argonian)

Argonian isn't top pick for tanks, isn't top pick for healers, and bottom of the barrel for dps. Their only strength is pvp where drawing from multiple pools is required. Even here argonian was nerfed in sustain, health and poison resistance.

At the very least they should raise the floor for Argonian so they become jack of all trades and up their tank game.

Increase magicka, stamina and health by 1500.

Tommy_The_Gun

Yes (I dont play Argonian)

Argonian & Bosmer seems to have the weakest passives right now (PTS changes, soon on live server). Those 2 races will be the weakest next update and they wont be used in any type of content. Sure, will be still good for RP & Questing and overland content and perhaps in very rare cases for PvP. And that is pretty much it.

(Looking at original racial rebalance goals I have a feeling that something, somewhere went terribly wrong)

cheifsoap

Yes (I play Argonian)

I'm honestly kind of ticked off that I'm going to have to race change to a nord because my tank is going to be crap now.

Silver_Strider

Yes (I play Argonian)

Seraphayel wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Players that chose Argonian before the changes knew what they could expect from the race. In that regard nothing changed.

I don't know why Argonian players were expecting buffs to DPS racials when there was no indication for that to happen (or to be necessary). Argonian was always about healing and their very strong utility passives and in that regard they are still excellent. They make great healers and tanks even after the changes and I couldn't care less if Bretons might be a little bit better due to sustain or whatever.

If you want to be competitive DPS wise you didn't pick Argonian to begin with. If 1-2k DPS matter that much for you your choice already was Altmer, Dunmer or whatever.

To say Argonians are shoehorned into healing or being one of the "worst" DPS races is a very narrow-minded view on the race that still will be an excellent pick for PvP.

Don't get me wrong, they could increase Stamina/Magicka a bit or transform the healing passive into Spell Damage but besides that Argonians were not to expect significant DPS racials or changes in that regard.

There was no indication that Khajiit would be made into valid Magic DPS either but it happened anyways so why is this even an argument?

True that. The important point is that Khajiit never were a "utility" race like Argonians, they were a pure damage race. Same with Dunmer. That's why they're still an excellent damage race but now for Magicka and Stamina builds. In the end nothing changed for both races when it comes to their role disposition.

Argonians never were a damage race. That's why this is an argument. Argonian was no DPS race and won't be in the future.

You can choose, sustain or damage or utility. Those are the three categories for races (with Khajiit being a weaker mix of damage and sustain at the same time).

Argonians are a utility (tank) race and there was no indication for any changes in that regard.

And where do Orcs fall in this argument. Originally, Orcs could serve either as Tanks or DPS as half their passives were Tank based (Max health, Healing Received and Health Recovery) while the other half was DPS/Flavor (Max Stamina, Melee Damage, Sprint cost reduction/Movement speed). They lost some of their Tank traits (Healing Received and traded health regen for a small self heal) but got their melee damage changed into Weapon Damage, which has more universal usage as it effects Stamina Heals (which outweighs the Healing Received removal) and Bow abilities now.

Argonians lost some of their Tank potency (Healing Received) and some of their sustain (20% worth) and got JACK$#!! for it. The 1% Healing Done is not a fair trade by any stretch of the imagination, especially if we take into consideration the loss of poison resistance as well. While every other race more or less broke even with these changes, if not got buffed, Bosmer and Argonians both got shafted, hard.

Would have changing Life Mender to provide 129 Weapon/Spell damage, with an additional 129 added to Healing Abilities really have been THAT hard? Or just make it a 3% Healing done with 129 Weapon/Spell Damage. Or ANYTHING at all so Argonian Tanks don't get totally screwed over while opening up some DPS options to us.

An Orc can still Tank, with stronger Vigors and more damage, but an Argonian lost some of its Tank potency for no benefit and that's just not fair or balanced.

Edit: meant 20%, 40 was a typo