What is our Class Reps personal opinions on the upcoming racial changes?

BlueRaven

susmitds wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

The dodge roll passive can be used in stealth purposes too. The speed gain from dodge also increases sneak speed (and stacks with other speed buffs) and the penetration boost can be used to start a gank. I can emphasize with people about losing the Stealth passive but I think most people are not realizing how good the dodge passive as an NB both for PvP gankers and PvE heists. I tried one of the heists out in PTS and the dodge speed effortlessly mixed into my playstyle, especially with the Magelight Guards, who made the Stealth passive useless.

I did not realize the passive was only made for Bosmer NB gankers, my mistake and it explains so much! So now instead of a passive that can be used for any type of class and gameplay. We have one that is designed for a niche pvp type for one class and particular spec in that class. Wonderful seems like Zos hit the nail on the head with that one!

You know when I created my bosmer, when the game came out, I dreamed for the day I can just roll while in stealth and to lose my stealth bonus. I meant thats why everyone created a bosmer for, right? A clunky gameplay mechanic like that. No, not for the actual stealth like they were great at in every ES game. But to roll around in stealth as the replacement for improved stealth. These forums were filled with bosmer players asking for the stealth bonus to be removed so that they can roll in a particular quest type instead. If I ever have to pick a lock or pickpocket anyone in a town I am sure that roll will be perfect help for it.

And now a race that is known for being one of the stealthiest, is now less stealthy than Kahjits and imperials (Who have a stamina reduction to stealth). Whats to be upset about?

Ankaridan

Liofa wrote: »

Argonians... we are looking to a race that is made for beginner tanks who may have sustain issues... the perfect beginner tank race.

Imperials... are the intermediate tank race.

Nords... we will see Nord being used by experienced tanks. People who are already know what they are doing and will not need those passives etc. will simply go for Nord

I'm aware this is just your opinion, and could simply be an issue of wording, but I actually find these statements problematic.

I've been tanking on an Argonian since launch, when Argonians were crap. I'm still tanking on an Argonian, and will continue to do so. My level of tanking experience is independent of that. I have tanked ALL content in the game, including vCR, on an Argonian. The suggestion that Argonians are a beginner choice and that experienced players will choose Nord doesn't really convey a very friendly message, especially coming from a class representative.

Could you even begin to imagine the forum outrage that would result if an actual ZOS member stated that Argonians were for beginners and Nords are for people who know what they are doing?

BlueRaven

Ankaridan wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Argonians... we are looking to a race that is made for beginner tanks who may have sustain issues... the perfect beginner tank race.

Imperials... are the intermediate tank race.

Nords... we will see Nord being used by experienced tanks. People who are already know what they are doing and will not need those passives etc. will simply go for Nord

I'm aware this is just your opinion, and could simply be an issue of wording, but I actually find these statements problematic.

I've been tanking on an Argonian since launch, when Argonians were crap. I'm still tanking on an Argonian, and will continue to do so. My level of tanking experience is independent of that. I have tanked ALL content in the game, including vCR, on an Argonian. The suggestion that Argonians are a beginner choice and that experienced players will choose Nord doesn't really convey a very friendly message, especially coming from a class representative.

Could you even begin to imagine the forum outrage that would result if an actual ZOS member stated that Argonians were for beginners and Nords are for people who know what they are doing?

Wait, what? A class rep said this? H••• F••• I did not notice this the first time I saw this. Are argonians some sort of trap race? They (and imperials) should be AS good as Nords, not the ones you roll first then pay for a race change later! And this is from someone who has a Nord tank.

I am literally speechless. This is not how race design should be done.

Ankaridan

BlueRaven wrote: »

Wait, what? A class rep said this? H••• F••• I did not notice this the first time I saw this. Are argonians some sort of trap race? They (and imperials) should be AS good as Nords, not the ones you roll first then pay for a race change later! And this is from someone who has a Nord tank.

I am literally speechless. This is not how race design should be done.

Yeah. The subtle implications were not pleasant. I may be an experienced Argonian tank, but if I knew what I was doing (direct quote), I'd re-roll to Nord.

Joy_Division

BlueRaven wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll cannot be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

I was asked for my opinion and I gave it. And now you are lecturing my with CAPS and boldface because you disagree with it.

Along with completely taking what I said out of contest. I did not say anything about ZOS's code about stealth and roll being separated and I stated very clearly that "I would rather have the dodge roll speed and pen" because I was asked for my opinion, hence the "I". I find movement speed very important in all aspects of the game, PvP and PVE, and that speed bonus is something I'll use in any stealth oriented gameplay Vs. guards and bosses with Magelight active, which hard counters stealth. I am allowed to have opinions. Those opinions are mine, not necessarily what the ESO community may or may not share.

If you want to disagree with my assessment, that's fine, but yelling at me is uncalled for and doesn't somehow make you right and me wrong. And you are wrong in accusing me of only representing myself. At our meeting, when we went over racials, everyone was ready to move on from Bosmer until one representative mentioned the community's concern about the loss of the stealth passive, and that rep was me. Nobody else was going to say anything. Even though I would much rather have Hunter's Eye, I still communicated that concern to the reps.

max_only

susmitds wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

The dodge roll passive can be used in stealth purposes too. The speed gain from dodge also increases sneak speed (and stacks with other speed buffs) and the penetration boost can be used to start a gank. I can emphasize with people about losing the Stealth passive but I think most people are not realizing how good the dodge passive as an NB both for PvP gankers and PvE heists. I tried one of the heists out in PTS and the dodge speed effortlessly mixed into my playstyle, especially with the Magelight Guards, who made the Stealth passive useless.[

I also tried heists on the PTS and when you roll dodge you jump out of stealth so I’m not saying I don’t believe you, I just haven’t had that experience at all.

You have yet to say why stealth detect is beneficial. Both you @susmitds and class reps say what amounts to this “yes stealth detect is useless but I really want to roll dodge/get pen buff” edit: Joy Division hasn’t commented on the usefulness of stealth detect in PVE.

Did you know it is possible to have stealth radius bonus AND roll dodge/pen? Why is it mutually exclusive for you? Real question, not a hypothetical troll.

Vulcans are no longer smart and Klingons are no longer strong. If stealth detect or stealth radius or stealth Anything means so little to you, what is the harm with the passive looking like this:

Increases your stealth reduction radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Instead of this:

Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Edit: I don’t mean for the bold to be yelling, it is an emphasis in case posts are skimmed.

Joy_Division

max_only wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

The dodge roll passive can be used in stealth purposes too. The speed gain from dodge also increases sneak speed (and stacks with other speed buffs) and the penetration boost can be used to start a gank. I can emphasize with people about losing the Stealth passive but I think most people are not realizing how good the dodge passive as an NB both for PvP gankers and PvE heists. I tried one of the heists out in PTS and the dodge speed effortlessly mixed into my playstyle, especially with the Magelight Guards, who made the Stealth passive useless.

I also tried heists on the PTS and when you roll dodge you jump out of stealth so I’m not saying I don’t believe you, I just haven’t had that experience.

You have yet to say why stealth detect is beneficial. Both you and @Joy_Division say what amounts to this “yes stealth detect is useless but I really want to roll dodge/get pen buff”

Did you know it is possible to have stealth radius bonus AND roll dodge/pen? Why is it mutually exclusive for you? Real question, not a hypothetical troll.

Vulcans are no longer smart and Klingons are no longer strong. If stealth detect or stealth radius or stealth Anything means so little to you, what is the harm with the passive looking like this:

Increases your stealth reduction radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Instead of this:

Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

You are tagging me about stuff I did not say. I did not say stealth detect is useless. I did not say stealth radius bonus and roll dodge/pen is mutually exclusive.

max_only

It’s fine. I know it’s not a representative democracy with elected officials who convey the will of the people above their own personal opinions. Games aren’t a democracy, Zos will do what they want. This isn’t a defeatist facetious “it’s fine” either. I mean it. I am invested in this fantasy world like any other fan would be, so that’s why I have an objection.

max_only

Joy_Division wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

The dodge roll passive can be used in stealth purposes too. The speed gain from dodge also increases sneak speed (and stacks with other speed buffs) and the penetration boost can be used to start a gank. I can emphasize with people about losing the Stealth passive but I think most people are not realizing how good the dodge passive as an NB both for PvP gankers and PvE heists. I tried one of the heists out in PTS and the dodge speed effortlessly mixed into my playstyle, especially with the Magelight Guards, who made the Stealth passive useless.

I also tried heists on the PTS and when you roll dodge you jump out of stealth so I’m not saying I don’t believe you, I just haven’t had that experience.

You have yet to say why stealth detect is beneficial. Both you and @Joy_Division say what amounts to this “yes stealth detect is useless but I really want to roll dodge/get pen buff”

Did you know it is possible to have stealth radius bonus AND roll dodge/pen? Why is it mutually exclusive for you? Real question, not a hypothetical troll.

Vulcans are no longer smart and Klingons are no longer strong. If stealth detect or stealth radius or stealth Anything means so little to you, what is the harm with the passive looking like this:

Increases your stealth reduction radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Instead of this:

Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

You are tagging me about stuff I did not say. I did not say stealth detect is useless. I did not say stealth radius bonus and roll dodge/pen is mutually exclusive.

My bad. I changed it.

How do you use stealth detect in pve? @Joy_Division
I have a poll going and I can’t get a straight answer from anyone.

Cundu_Ertur

Joy_Division wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

The dodge roll passive can be used in stealth purposes too. The speed gain from dodge also increases sneak speed (and stacks with other speed buffs) and the penetration boost can be used to start a gank. I can emphasize with people about losing the Stealth passive but I think most people are not realizing how good the dodge passive as an NB both for PvP gankers and PvE heists. I tried one of the heists out in PTS and the dodge speed effortlessly mixed into my playstyle, especially with the Magelight Guards, who made the Stealth passive useless.

I also tried heists on the PTS and when you roll dodge you jump out of stealth so I’m not saying I don’t believe you, I just haven’t had that experience.

You have yet to say why stealth detect is beneficial. Both you and @Joy_Division say what amounts to this “yes stealth detect is useless but I really want to roll dodge/get pen buff”

Did you know it is possible to have stealth radius bonus AND roll dodge/pen? Why is it mutually exclusive for you? Real question, not a hypothetical troll.

Vulcans are no longer smart and Klingons are no longer strong. If stealth detect or stealth radius or stealth Anything means so little to you, what is the harm with the passive looking like this:

Increases your stealth reduction radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Instead of this:

Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

You are tagging me about stuff I did not say. I did not say stealth detect is useless. I did not say stealth radius bonus and roll dodge/pen is mutually exclusive.

He was relying to susmitds, btw.

edit: nevermind, it was edit after

Kalle_Demos

Joy_Division wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll cannot be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

I was asked for my opinion and I gave it. And now you are lecturing my with CAPS and boldface because you disagree with it.

Along with completely taking what I said out of contest. I did not say anything about ZOS's code about stealth and roll being separated and I stated very clearly that "I would rather have the dodge roll speed and pen" because I was asked for my opinion, hence the "I". I find movement speed very important in all aspects of the game, PvP and PVE, and that speed bonus is something I'll use in any stealth oriented gameplay Vs. guards and bosses with Magelight active, which hard counters stealth. I am allowed to have opinions. Those opinions are mine, not necessarily what the ESO community may or may not share.

If you want to disagree with my assessment, that's fine, but yelling at me is uncalled for and doesn't somehow make you right and me wrong. And you are wrong in accusing me of only representing myself. At our meeting, when we went over racials, everyone was ready to move on from Bosmer until one representative mentioned the community's concern about the loss of the stealth passive, and that rep was me. Nobody else was going to say anything. Even though I would much rather have Hunter's Eye, I still communicated that concern to the reps.

Well, that is extremely disconcerting. Stealth has been an integral part of what is is to be a Bosmer for years and gutting it is contrary to the goals illustrated. People bought and continued to play ESO for years for this specific combo and playstyle as it has been a staple in the series and you were the only one who thought to bring it up? Thanks for bringing our concerns to the table. We desperately need more like you in the room.

max_only

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll cannot be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

I was asked for my opinion and I gave it. And now you are lecturing my with CAPS and boldface because you disagree with it.

Along with completely taking what I said out of contest. I did not say anything about ZOS's code about stealth and roll being separated and I stated very clearly that "I would rather have the dodge roll speed and pen" because I was asked for my opinion, hence the "I". I find movement speed very important in all aspects of the game, PvP and PVE, and that speed bonus is something I'll use in any stealth oriented gameplay Vs. guards and bosses with Magelight active, which hard counters stealth. I am allowed to have opinions. Those opinions are mine, not necessarily what the ESO community may or may not share.

If you want to disagree with my assessment, that's fine, but yelling at me is uncalled for and doesn't somehow make you right and me wrong. And you are wrong in accusing me of only representing myself. At our meeting, when we went over racials, everyone was ready to move on from Bosmer until one representative mentioned the community's concern about the loss of the stealth passive, and that rep was me. Nobody else was going to say anything. Even though I would much rather have Hunter's Eye, I still communicated that concern to the reps.

Well, that is extremely disconcerting. Stealth has been an integral part of what is is to be a Bosmer for years and gutting it is contrary to the goals illustrated. People bought and continued to play ESO for years for this specific combo and playstyle as it has been a staple in the series and you were the only one who thought to bring it up? Thanks for bringing our concerns to the table. We desperately need more like you in the room.

I agree.

MLGProPlayer

Giving Bosmer back their reduced detection radius would literally have zero impact on their endgame performance. It's pretty much only useful in thief/assassin gameplay, which isn't part of endgame (PvE or PvP). Which makes it all the more difficult for me to understand why ZOS is so stubborn on this decision.

BlueRaven

Joy_Division wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll cannot be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

I was asked for my opinion and I gave it. And now you are lecturing my with CAPS and boldface because you disagree with it.

Along with completely taking what I said out of contest. I did not say anything about ZOS's code about stealth and roll being separated and I stated very clearly that "I would rather have the dodge roll speed and pen" because I was asked for my opinion, hence the "I". I find movement speed very important in all aspects of the game, PvP and PVE, and that speed bonus is something I'll use in any stealth oriented gameplay Vs. guards and bosses with Magelight active, which hard counters stealth. I am allowed to have opinions. Those opinions are mine, not necessarily what the ESO community may or may not share.

If you want to disagree with my assessment, that's fine, but yelling at me is uncalled for and doesn't somehow make you right and me wrong. And you are wrong in accusing me of only representing myself. At our meeting, when we went over racials, everyone was ready to move on from Bosmer until one representative mentioned the community's concern about the loss of the stealth passive, and that rep was me. Nobody else was going to say anything. Even though I would much rather have Hunter's Eye, I still communicated that concern to the reps.

Yes I am responding with caps and bold face because your statements make no sense. And I did it for emphasis.

I quoted you out of context? Seriously? Was there another part where you mentioned bosmers? Did I forget to add the “sarcasm” emote at the end or something?

You said;

“Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets.“

That is the entirety of your Bosmer mention I did not cut out one period from it.

And what you said is crystal clear. You like the current passive because of the roll, so your willing to sacrifice stealth. And the TWO ARE NOT connected! The roll has nothing to do with stealth!
You can have the roll and have a bonus to alchemy.
You can have the roll and get double food buffs.
The roll is not dependent on what’s on the other side of “AND” in the passive. So to say “hey, make armor, it’s fine because I like the roll” is pretty infuriating when the two are not mutually exclusive.

You can have the roll and we can have the stealth and then both of us are happy. Sheesh.

And we have a ton posts across four weeks, in this sub forum, general, and the pts ones. We posted in feed back channels and added tags. And the one person who is fine with the loss of stealth is the one who brought it up to devs? And I am supposed to feel better about this?

The devs didn’t already know about the controversy? And with you bringing it up the dev answer of basically “we will fix it later” did not offer a follow up? And in all that time that was the ONLY time this was brought up??? How about they remove stealth when they have a “fix” ready. Was that asked?

What are we supposed to do? Tell me. We post on here in all hours of the night pleading to not lose stealth. We have to put up with people who question weather Bosmer stealth is lore appropriate. Who think stealth is only used in PvP. Or who think we just want the 10% buff. Or the insults that we are just RPers and what we want can be ignored.

The devs said that we were supposed to keep a part of the original passive and we got none of it... And it’s not like we are asking for a dps boost, we just want to retain stealth. It’s why we made bosmers. I have no idea why you made one if stealth is so unimportant to you.

And all of the posts and their abusive responses were meaningless. These forums are just ignored and you are wondering why we are upset. Apparently we would have been better served to drive down to Maryland with a megaphone.

Cundu_Ertur

I'm in Maryland, and if I though it'd help I would head out to Hunt Valley or where-ever with a megaphone, but it's the Baltimore area and that kind of thing gets a little out of hand in these parts, sometimes.

Anyways, we got our answer, we have to ditch any nice armor sets we have, to wear one or both of the crappy ones that give us our stealth bonus back, and eventually one day we'll even be able to, maybe, sneak as well as an imperial. Oh, wait, no we won't, since they get the cost reduction.


They have altered the deal, we must pray they do not alter it further.

FrancisCrawford

susmitds wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

The dodge roll passive can be used in stealth purposes too. The speed gain from dodge also increases sneak speed (and stacks with other speed buffs) and the penetration boost can be used to start a gank. I can emphathize with people about losing the Stealth passive but I think most people are not realizing how good the dodge passive as an NB both for PvP gankers and PvE heists. I tried one of the heists out in PTS and the dodge speed effortlessly mixed into my playstyle, especially with the Magelight Guards, who made the Stealth passive useless.

Could you please explain your heist point more fully? Are you rolling through the guards' detection circles? Are you just stacking speed to beat them to the spot so as to get past them?

max_only

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

The dodge roll passive can be used in stealth purposes too. The speed gain from dodge also increases sneak speed (and stacks with other speed buffs) and the penetration boost can be used to start a gank. I can emphathize with people about losing the Stealth passive but I think most people are not realizing how good the dodge passive as an NB both for PvP gankers and PvE heists. I tried one of the heists out in PTS and the dodge speed effortlessly mixed into my playstyle, especially with the Magelight Guards, who made the Stealth passive useless.

Could you please explain your heist point more fully? Are you rolling through the guards' detection circles? Are you just stacking speed to beat them to the spot so as to get past them?

If you roll dodge in a heist you will be pulled from stealth. 10% speedier does not cover it at that point. If they didnt detect him/her when they roll dodged in a heist (because of Line of Sight and obstacles), they weren’t going to detect them even if they stood up and danced. There isn’t any benefit to roll dodging in a sacrament or a heist.

Nebthet78

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Giving Bosmer back their reduced detection radius would literally have zero impact on their endgame performance. It's pretty much only useful in thief/assassin gameplay, which isn't part of endgame. Which makes it all the more difficult for me to understand why ZOS is so stubborn on this decision.

It's because they want you to use up the free race changes this patch, so that when they change things back in a future patch, you have to pay them to change your race back.

Liofa

Ankaridan wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Argonians... we are looking to a race that is made for beginner tanks who may have sustain issues... the perfect beginner tank race.

Imperials... are the intermediate tank race.

Nords... we will see Nord being used by experienced tanks. People who are already know what they are doing and will not need those passives etc. will simply go for Nord

I'm aware this is just your opinion, and could simply be an issue of wording, but I actually find these statements problematic.

I've been tanking on an Argonian since launch, when Argonians were crap. I'm still tanking on an Argonian, and will continue to do so. My level of tanking experience is independent of that. I have tanked ALL content in the game, including vCR, on an Argonian. The suggestion that Argonians are a beginner choice and that experienced players will choose Nord doesn't really convey a very friendly message, especially coming from a class representative.

Could you even begin to imagine the forum outrage that would result if an actual ZOS member stated that Argonians were for beginners and Nords are for people who know what they are doing?

I should have seen this coming ^^ Right, I believe you played other games as well like most of us here. In some games, while you are creating a character, the game tells you the difficulty of the character you play. Some of them literally use the "Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced" words. This doesn't mean you cannot tank hardest content with a Beginner ranked race. When I rank something as Beginner, it's because it appeals to beginners the most, such as Argonians. They are the easiest race to play as a tank. Nord on the other hand doesn't have this huge sustain passive but gets a group support passive instead. You playing an Argonian doesn't necessarily mean that you need the sustain passive. This is the part you missed while quoting my comment: "Next patch, your choice will differ depending on your experience and goals in the game." Experience AND goals. It means that a player can be very experienced yet they don't want the group support passive because they don't do score pushing and things like that so they go with whatever they want. In their case, experience doesn't matter because goals are different.

In short, I could be a super good tank that doesn't care about scores and I'll go with a Khajiit/Argonian/Dunmer whatever tank or I care about score pushing but not a good tank so I choose Nord but cannot play it because I can't sustain. Meaning experience and goals are attached to each other and will affect race choice of tank players ONLY when the players experience and goal match in a certain way. That is the thought process behind my first post in this thread.

Seraphayel

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Giving Bosmer back their reduced detection radius would literally have zero impact on their endgame performance. It's pretty much only useful in thief/assassin gameplay, which isn't part of endgame. Which makes it all the more difficult for me to understand why ZOS is so stubborn on this decision.

I totally agree with you on this. Bosmer losing their stealth identity is the decision I cannot understand. What was the problem with it to begin with?
______

By the way it's a bit sad to see that Reps get attacked when they don't share the same opinion on some points like players of the respective race they disagree with. They've been asked for their opinions and I am very glad that they had the courage to write them down.

Masel

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Masel Thanks for the detailed response. I have a few comments and questions.

Altmer vs Dunmer: The difference in DPS was largely corrected when Dunmer got a max magicka increase, there wasn’t any need to remove Altmer sustain. I’d actually be fine if Dunmer had higher burst, and Altmer only beat them in a sustained fight (as it currently on live). Maybe this means bumping Altmer Spell Damage down to 200 and giving them back the Magicka restore, or 100-129 Magicka Recovery. It doesn’t make sense that Altmer Magicka sustain is worse than half of the races: behind Breton, Argonian, Imperial, Khajiit, and Redguard.

The off-resource return could be interesting on a hybrid build, and I could see it working well if added to Dunmer passives (without taking away anything, since it is a pretty niche passive).

As for Altmer healers, I don’t really expect to see a rise in them. Most healers don’t value spell damage, it’s more a game of sustain for them, based on how many orbs, buffs, and sometimes purges they can get out. If they wanted higher healing tool tips, sets like Samctuary and Healers Habit would be more popular. Healing is more of a support role.

What are your thoughts on the change from Crit Chance to Crit Dmg on Khajiit? It seems to me like the new value is a little low. They went from 114% of a Thief Stone to 77% of a Shadow Stone. I’m not sure if that’s a fair comparison, since the Shadow Stone seems overturned on PTS, but the drop of Khajiit DPS over the PTS cycle is noticeable. Maybe 12% Crit Dmg would be more balanced (possibly reducing Shadow Stone down to 11% to keep the peak Crit Dmg unchanged and prevent it from becoming the only Mundus Stone used).

For Breton, is the change to Spell Resistance intended to be a PVE survivability nerf? These status effects are rare in PVE, and definitely cannot be counted on. The introduction of RNG into a defensive passive doesn’t sit well with me. The question “will I survive this mechanic?” should never be answered with “were you lucky enough to get the 5% chance at a simultaneous burning proc to boost your defense?”. The 3960 may have been lower, but the reliability was much more valuable.

For Bosmer, you mention that you don’t like the dodge roll penetration bonus. I think most of the community agrees with this. Do you think there is a good chance of getting something more consistently useful?

Thanks

I do totally understand where you are coming from, but all of that is feedback we have already given to them. I don't know whether they will do additional alterations.

Tasear wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Some of what you are asking for can be found here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459718/are-you-happy-with-the-racial-changes-that-most-likely-will-go-live/p4

Starting with post 95 and continuing through the thread

Masel wrote: »

All parses and math I have seen show that these races are all within a margin that can be put down to human error and chance at this point, and it baffles me how big of a deal these tiny differences are to many people. This is the first time I understand that you simply can't do it right. People will complain whatever change is coming, and it is quite difficult to filter out unbiased reasonable feedback.

The gist of Masel's point is that races are parsing close to one another, this is a buff compared to live for races like Bosmer and he thinks that people are losing sight of this in their complaints about things like hunter's eye. He does acknowledge that hunter's eye is not that great but on net, he thinks this is a good set of changes.

Some of the responses express frustration with the focus on parsing and not adequately considering lore and the importance of stealth for the Bosmer race. It's a good read although it doesn't really resolve anything.

Agruing masel opinion somethings aren't just about numbers for people in regards to balance.

I totally missed this one. Yeah, read my 3500 word post and then tell me again all I care about is numbers...

However, numbers are what defines combat as it is, so balancing is done around them. Even Stealth Gameplay can be reduced down to numbers (am i getting detected or not? Will be defined by my stealth radius and the enemy's detection radius). I will repeat it once again: I (and none of us reps) mind Bosmer getting stealth reduction back, we communicated to ZoS that players want it back and if they do not do it, what more can we do. You guys keep arguing the wrong people here.

max_only

I do not intend for any of my posts to be attacks, I’m sorry.

Tyrion87

Joy_Division wrote: »

• I understand the ZOS logic of wanting to tone down Altmer sustain so as not to step on Bretons shoes, but a stam recovery passive is not something most people who play Altmers will find useful or enjoy (That being said, Altmer is tailor-made for PvP magplar, but that's too niche). So I either would added a utility that was magicka oriented if Altmer had to be adjusted.
• Orc: This race seems to me as an outlier for how much stats and other bonuses it grants. If Orcs are supposed to be the stamina version of Altmer, then I think Altmer needs to be reevaluated.

Amen.

These are exactly my feelings about Altmer. I feel like they lack something. Something magicka-flavoured. Not even dps-related as from the DPS parses posted so far we could see that Altmer is still on a good spot in terms of mag DPS.

If we compare Altmers to Dunmers, Altmers seem to be really bland. Both races have almost the same mag pool and spell dmg. Dunmer has bigger off-resource pool + fire resistance + immunity to burning status which is huge. What Altmer has in comparison? Stam regen + 5% mitigation on cast times/channels. None of these are useful for most people playing Altmers. If I play PvE-only non-magplar character, this passive is nonexistent. Dead. The racials shouldn't be like that.

And if Altmer is supposed to be a mag equivalent of Orcs, then the comparison is even more absurd and it is evident that Altmers need something more. Maybe related to their defense like a buff to dmg shields effectiveness or duration. My dream though would be the increase of the speed of heavy attacks.

Juhasow

nsmurfer wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

Masel Dunmer is still beating Khajiit in DPS by a significant average (0.5-1.5%) in any given class. In every tests done in most people, Dunmer is getting anything between 500-1k extra DPS at 50K DPS range. While I get that human error is possible, it is being seen in every test by different testers in different conditions. Dunmer make better healers, fairly good tanks with higher resources and flame resists. Don't you think, Dunmer is totally eclipsing Khajiit performance wise, in any given role?

If You use words "significant average" and then You put the numbers 0,5-1,5% then You can not expect to be taken seriously. So dunmer is doing 1% more DPS but khajit have stealth passive , more health and more recovery ? Sounds balanced to me.

Do you even understand that the sustain is factored into DPS already? Remove the sustain and the gap becomes 2%+. The sustain is balanced by the fact by khajiit's lowest primary resources of all races. Going by the set bonus system, Dunmer's resources come out higher than khajiit's resources+recovery total.

1.5% may seem low to you. But the difference between raceless and Dunmer is 4%. THis means Khajiit is giving a 2.5% bonus to DPS while Dunmer is giving almost twice that.

You were the one complaining about Dunmer patch one. No wonder, you are happy being the stronger hybrid biased af.

Do You even understand that triple recovery combined with triple stat bonus is not only affecting Your damage but also survivality ? Everyone knows that having over 800 more heatlh as PvE DD helps a lot so if I can have it for the cost of loosing 1% dmg well I'll gladly take it. Also yes I perfectly know main resource recovery is factored into DPS already but I also know it's quite difference to finish parse with 10% resource left or 40% resource left. Remove the sustain and khajit will simply end parse with lower resource left since in raid buffed parses You will sustain the parse anyway.

1,5% is the highest difference possible when You do all You can to not take adventage of Your racial passive and You deliberately lower it's effectiveness. If You build in line with that passive You can even notice small damage increase on certains setups. Difference between having and not having race passives is low now because that was the goal to bring all races closer together and seriously You are playing with words to promote certain bias of Yours when You say "Dunmer is giving almost twice that". Also going from 2,5 to 4 is not increasing something twice. 1,5 is closer to 1/3 then half of 4 so even using "almost twice" is not on place.

Where excatly I was complaining about dunmers and what was that complains about ? I think You either misinterpretated something or taking me for someone else.

Ankaridan

Liofa wrote: »

I should have seen this coming ^^ Right, I believe you played other games as well like most of us here. In some games, while you are creating a character, the game tells you the difficulty of the character you play. Some of them literally use the "Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced" words. This doesn't mean you cannot tank hardest content with a Beginner ranked race. When I rank something as Beginner, it's because it appeals to beginners the most, such as Argonians. They are the easiest race to play as a tank. Nord on the other hand doesn't have this huge sustain passive but gets a group support passive instead. You playing an Argonian doesn't necessarily mean that you need the sustain passive. This is the part you missed while quoting my comment: "Next patch, your choice will differ depending on your experience and goals in the game." Experience AND goals. It means that a player can be very experienced yet they don't want the group support passive because they don't do score pushing and things like that so they go with whatever they want. In their case, experience doesn't matter because goals are different.

I understand that. The message inherent in your post has been clear; my issue has moreso been the way it is presented.

Liofa wrote: »

I could be a super good tank that doesn't care about scores and I'll go with a Khajiit/Argonian/Dunmer whatever tank or I care about score pushing but not a good tank so I choose Nord but cannot play it because I can't sustain.

This here is the part that I don't like. My first word I want to use is 'elitist', which isn't entirely correct, but partially conveys my message. The idea that a player's choice in race is reflective of their experience / skill level. I may not have vCR+3 but I have all the speed runs. I have scores. Especially as a mag tank, there is no appealing reason for me to switch to Nord.

My point being the inherent subtext on using labels like that from someone in your position. I understand it's not the message you are trying to convey, but when you consider how quickly the meta changes on the basis of discord convos / streamers / popular opinions?

For clarity:

Player A is an Argonian tank. I hear those are beginners with no experience. Maybe he doesn't really care about scores or achievements, or just doesn't know what he's doing and wants to have fun.

Player B is a Nord tank. The elite crew all say you have to be this to tank. This clearly has to be an end-game player who clears all content and achievements.

I understand that is not the message you are intending to send. My point is that the way you have worded your posts, it very clearly & easily can be misunderstood as such.

MLGProPlayer

I think people need to understand that ZOS doesn't really care about class reps' feedback either. If they want to make a certain change, they'll make it regardless of what anyone thinks.

MLGProPlayer

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

• I understand the ZOS logic of wanting to tone down Altmer sustain so as not to step on Bretons shoes, but a stam recovery passive is not something most people who play Altmers will find useful or enjoy (That being said, Altmer is tailor-made for PvP magplar, but that's too niche). So I either would added a utility that was magicka oriented if Altmer had to be adjusted.
• Orc: This race seems to me as an outlier for how much stats and other bonuses it grants. If Orcs are supposed to be the stamina version of Altmer, then I think Altmer needs to be reevaluated.

Amen.

These are exactly my feelings about Altmer. I feel like they lack something. Something magicka-flavoured. Not even dps-related as from the DPS parses posted so far we could see that Altmer is still on a good spot in terms of mag DPS.

If we compare Altmers to Dunmers, Altmers seem to be really bland. Both races have almost the same mag pool and spell dmg. Dunmer has bigger off-resource pool + fire resistance + immunity to burning status which is huge. What Altmer has in comparison? Stam regen + 5% mitigation on cast times/channels. None of these are useful for most people playing Altmers. If I play PvE-only non-magplar character, this passive is nonexistent. Dead. The racials shouldn't be like that.

And if Altmer is supposed to be a mag equivalent of Orcs, then the comparison is even more absurd and it is evident that Altmers need something more. Maybe related to their defense like a buff to dmg shields effectiveness or duration. My dream though would be the increase of the speed of heavy attacks.

The heavy attack suggestion is a very interesting compromise to losing their sustain. I like it.

It's crazy how many useful passives Orc gets compared to Altmer. You can see that whoever made the Altmer changes had an agenda against the race, or was just totally incompetent.

These are racial passives. They need to be *** universally useful. Instead, we get a tiny PvP-only buff and a buff that only one *** class (templars) can use.

Moonsorrow

@Liofa
@Joy_Division

Thank you both for your detailed answers.

Good stuff to read, since when am not doing pvp.. i am tanking at pve. So the #tanklife is always interesting, and one gotta breath in the trends hih.

Special thanks to @Joy_Division because you talked about Bosmer concerns to devs when others forgot them. I knew there was a reason for me to want you as a president (president of what, dont know yet.. but still), been so ever since i did read your topic about possible changes to Snares.

Also a reminder to everyone, when i made this discussion, i asked it was not used for flaming anyone for their opinions. They have right to their own opinions so respect that and keep it peaceful, thanks!

Masel

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I think people need to understand that ZOS doesn't really care about class reps' feedback either. If they want to make a certain change, they'll make ot regardless of what anyone thinks.

That is Not True. They do care very much about our feedback. Just because some things aren't as you wish does not mean they don't care about overall feedback.

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

[*] Bosmer: I play one and I'd much rather have what's on the PTS than what's on Live. I understand some people are upset over the change from stealth to Hunter's Eye, but I'd rather have the dodge roll speed and the pen boost as both are very hard to acquire elsewhere whereas stealth bonuses are available on numerous sets..

"Hard to acquire" does not mean un-acquirable. Why are bosmers stuck with a PvP only ability?

And how does the loss of stealth have ANYTHING to do with the roll? There is an "AND" in that passive. We can have both Stealth AND that dumb roll you want so much. Are you claiming there is something in the code that makes it that stealth detect and the roll cannot be separated?

"Well if we are going to have this roll, that means we can't have stealth. I mean the roll just does not work if it doesn't have a have a stealth detect with it." Was this an actual talking point?

The two do not clash with one another! Again we can have the stealth AND that stupid roll!

I don't understand why this is a hard concept. Please explain why the roll has ANYTHING to do with stealth! Is there a mechanic I am not seeing here?

And stealth is a used in PvP AND PvE, stealth detect is only used in PvP. And this is fine because you don't do pve I guess? I guess the only thing you were representing was yourself.

-Signed an actual player who got the CE "Imperial Edition" when the game came out.

I was asked for my opinion and I gave it. And now you are lecturing my with CAPS and boldface because you disagree with it.

Along with completely taking what I said out of contest. I did not say anything about ZOS's code about stealth and roll being separated and I stated very clearly that "I would rather have the dodge roll speed and pen" because I was asked for my opinion, hence the "I". I find movement speed very important in all aspects of the game, PvP and PVE, and that speed bonus is something I'll use in any stealth oriented gameplay Vs. guards and bosses with Magelight active, which hard counters stealth. I am allowed to have opinions. Those opinions are mine, not necessarily what the ESO community may or may not share.

If you want to disagree with my assessment, that's fine, but yelling at me is uncalled for and doesn't somehow make you right and me wrong. And you are wrong in accusing me of only representing myself. At our meeting, when we went over racials, everyone was ready to move on from Bosmer until one representative mentioned the community's concern about the loss of the stealth passive, and that rep was me. Nobody else was going to say anything. Even though I would much rather have Hunter's Eye, I still communicated that concern to the reps.

That is because they are using your comments to fish for reasons to get angry at anyone in charge of the changes. Since they they already tried to attack Gilliam/Zos (and failed), they are going after the reps next in their effort to get someone to listen. It's like a puppy that keeps barking when it doesn't get it's way.