Rework: Champion Points System [version 1]

joaaocaampos

BuildMan wrote: »

Personally I feel like CP should only affect non combat things such as gold amount and experience gained etc. it would help balance PvP a lot more because you wouldn’t have to worry about specific sets having to strong of synergy with CP. for PvE they would just have to evaluate if the content can still be cleared effectively and if it can’t then do a blanket buff for trials and 4 mans dungeons similar to battle spirit.

I agree, but... What to do about The Mage and The Warrior Constellations? These are Constellations that affect damage and resistance.

Joy_Division

I think you put a lot of thought into this and I do see you are trying to improve the existing system to be more in line with ZOS's stated goals.

I, however, am of the opinion the the CP system is at its core is flawed and unimaginative, unworthy of being a system in the game in the first place. It's mostly just flat percentage boosts that just augment the player's character. That's hardly inspiring as far as character progression goes since all that's happening is that I'm doing a little more damage and taking a little less; the way my character plays is pretty much the same, so what's the point?

Seeing all those players with 810 CP when someone thinking about returning to the game or for newer players who supposedly hit max level is no doubt unhealthy.

I do think there should be end-game progression, but it I'd like to see it the way most progression systems in RPGs and fantasy games work: provide us with interesting options where we have to make choices of what we get and don;t get, which improve and alter how our character plays. I think ZOS would be wise to ensure not too power is put in such as system as technically we are already at max level.

lolli42

i dont normally like casuality
but maybe it should change like, for example, in LOL
less maths, more utility
and things like...increases your physical and poison resistance/increases your physical resistance when wearing light/mid/heavy armor/increases resistance to direct damage/increaes resistance to critical damage...holy
ofc, some ppl like to study this *** and others just follow the guides on the internet
but this is too much for a game
instead of 3 different kinds of physical and magic resistance, give some more specials and passive activated skills
and also, dont force ppl to reach a milestone, with points, they dont want to invest
the whole thing should be more simple but also free in choice

Na0cho

I vote to scrap the whole system or make it have nothing to do with combat in any form.

Not trying to detract from your hard work, I honestly think cp Is bad for the game in the long run.

russelmmendoza

The only ones I can think of bothered by the overpower are pvpers.
Pve'rs likes decimating shitforbrains npc's in their path.
And not all pve content can be steamrolled with maximum cp.
I really hate zos for thinking nerfing everything is the end all solution to everything.
I never complained that the dk tank I was running with in my vet hm pledge for the day was toying with that shitforbrains last boss of that dungeon.
Nor I was complaining that the other dps was melting the mobs with the class its using.
I was never complaining that the healer was dps'ing while keeping us alive from the final shitforbrains of the vet hm dungeon were running.
All I ever see are pvpers complaining of dying, being not good enough, simply got better by anothet class and runs into the forum to complain.
I just hate zos for all their nerfing attitude.
I EFFING LOVE ESO!!!
So much I put up with zos for so long.

Wifeaggro13

Mr_Walker wrote: »

People don't do maths well. CP is heavily front loaded. It's certainlynot the driver from 20K dps to 50k dps in anyone's wildest dreams, but yes, this is an RPG, and progression is a staple of the genre since day one. Don't like progression? Don't allocate your CP.

the progression is very poorly designed. I think that is the issue

Onefrkncrzypope

Devil's advocate: enchant proc and free damage proc sets are the cause of power creep. Not cp as most people say. If you want to claim the power because of cp, please post some actual numbers. Look it's annoying but you would be surprised. Rele does over 5k dps+, monster helms 3k+, enchant 5k+. 40k was the end all be all until wm + see hitting 49k+. Then rele pushed to 55k norms then enchants pushed to 60k. It's not CP. 40k-->50 with only like 100cp that like not correct.
Current to next patch Stam enchant is 3k+ loss just by itself.

Zhoyzu

Necrothread.

is this in anticipation of necromancers? are people just practicing bringing up old ***?

boggo

Sadly this doesn‘t solve anything. The future CP system should be something completely different from what it is now.

KefkaGestahl

Na0cho wrote: »

I vote to scrap the whole system or make it have nothing to do with combat in any form.

Not trying to detract from your hard work, I honestly think cp Is bad for the game in the long run.

Do you really think the player base at large is going to be happy about that? People worked for their champion ranks. After 13 months, I'm nearly at the cap. If they suddenly turn around and scrap the system, removing every bit of progress I earned, I'm not sure I'd continue to play the game. Change it if they must. They already did before, back when they removed the ability cost reductions from the CP system. But don't scrap it.

Ohtimbar

Power creep is a fake problem. I want to get more powerful. I want to progress. If the designers can't wrap their heads around that then it's time for me to move on to greener pastures.

Shantu

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Champion Points
We spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed). The Devs indicated that the CP system is intended to counter-balance itself, that is, I can get X% buff, but that is negated by your -X% buff. The Devs indicated the way multipliers and other mechanics currently work means that counter-balance is not quite right. The class reps agreed and added the problem goes deeper; since Bosses don’t have CP, they aren’t getting the -X% modifiers. The end result is that players quickly out-scale and become too strong for any PvE content that gets released.

We also said it was unfortunate that much of our class identity has been taken away because the Champion System (and gear) has so much power.

Uh huh. This is why there are far more 810 CP players who have trouble slaying a kitten, let alone running vet content. There is nothing wrong with the CP system. I run vet end game with 3 different guilds. I've yet to hear ANYONE complain that things are too easy because they have too much CP power. I don't know anyone who is "able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed." because of CP.

This kind of blind, theoretical nonsense is very worrisome.

lolli42

If the CP builds are just outcountering each other, they can just get rid of it :x

Mr_Walker

Ohtimbar wrote: »

Power creep is a fake problem. I want to get more powerful. I want to progress. If the designers can't wrap their heads around that then it's time for me to move on to greener pastures.

The developers have wrapped their heads around it fine,. it's all the players who have no idea what an RPG is that struggle with it.

Mayrael

Hahaha... CPs allowing to skip mechanics? LOL... The same guy who can reach 70k DPS without CPS will do 50-55k without problems. It's not CPs fault but bad design of mechanics. I remember games where you had to lower DPS because of to big trash waves, or bosses reflecting group damage, or boss dealing massive damage every 1% hp lost etc. There is a million ways to introduce entertaining mechanics that will force people to think and will not allow them to DPS through content - nerfing everybody and killing progression is not one of them.

Banana

Nerfs suck

joaaocaampos

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think you put a lot of thought into this and I do see you are trying to improve the existing system to be more in line with ZOS's stated goals.

I, however, am of the opinion the the CP system is at its core is flawed and unimaginative, unworthy of being a system in the game in the first place. It's mostly just flat percentage boosts that just augment the player's character. That's hardly inspiring as far as character progression goes since all that's happening is that I'm doing a little more damage and taking a little less; the way my character plays is pretty much the same, so what's the point?

Seeing all those players with 810 CP when someone thinking about returning to the game or for newer players who supposedly hit max level is no doubt unhealthy.

I do think there should be end-game progression, but it I'd like to see it the way most progression systems in RPGs and fantasy games work: provide us with interesting options where we have to make choices of what we get and don;t get, which improve and alter how our character plays. I think ZOS would be wise to ensure not too power is put in such as system as technically we are already at max level.

My rework was entirely based on the current system. It's nothing too deep. It would be interesting a system where a Magicka char had to choose between increasing damage, recovery or resistance, rather than increasing all three at once.

In my opinion, ZOS should listen to my suggestion and do something similar. Cap needs to increase again. And then a new rework is done.

lolli42 wrote: »

the whole thing should be more simple but also free in choice

I don't think that's possible. The current system is simple, but it doesn't give you choice.

joaaocaampos

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Editing... 1: Although I suggest percentage, rework can also work with absolute numbers (see Racial changes)!

• When you deal damage with a Light or Heavy Attack, you decrease the enemy's Stamina resource restore and Recovery by [0-10]% [0-129] for 6 seconds.
• Reduces the cost of Bash by [0-20]% 243.
• Increases your Stamina Recovery by [0-10]% [0-129].
• Increases your Spell Critical by [0-10]% 2191.
• Etc...

I forgot that. ^ I wrote now.

idk

It is great you think of these things and Zos might find some use for some of that. However, Zos is doing their own review of CP and my bet is they will simplify it significantly more than they did 2 years ago whereas the idea suggested here in some ways makes it more complicated and some of it I really do not think will be in their plans.

LadyLethalla

I have put more hours into ESO than any other game in my 35+ years of gaming.
Of late, the continued nerfs have made me reduce my playtime to zero. (In particular, the shield nerf.) Most of my playtime in the past 2 years was all about VMA - finally completing it, then getting better and getting other characters through it. After the shield nerf, I haven't been back. (Before you say "L2P", I'm not a young gamer and I have crap internet. So, not going to bother with increased frustration due to decreased survivability on top of the ever-worsening lag.)
I got to Vet Rank 16 just before it was replaced with the CP system. I honestly wouldn't care if it was replaced by something new, as long as I felt powerful again and I could confidently reenter VMA knowing I had a good chance of getting through it.

Here's an idea though... why not make a system that also ties to race as was sort of suggested re the Dunmer affinity for fire? Have whatever progression system include a specific constellation for each race, along with generic categories.

russelmmendoza

Whatever zos does will never work.
Players will find ways to make metabuild.
Players will complain they got killed.
Zos then will nuke everything.
When I say players I meant pvp players.
Pve never complains of melting npc.
Pve never complains of unkillable tank.
Pve never complains of super healers.
Pvp on the other hand, well, I rest my case.

Skullstachio

Really the Champion point system is fine the way it is until a better solution is found, but what if some CP's had greater effectiveness but with a cost, maybe a reduction to one particular stat in order to counterbalance certain buffs in the CP constellations. like maybe a double-edged mechanic.

Nebthet78

Zedrian wrote: »

I am confused at @ZOS_GinaBruno 's comments because which players are affected by this power increase from CP? Are the High level trials players concerned or is it the more casual PvE player concerned? And what should these players be able to clear as content with the right balance of time and effort in working on content and difficulty?

I have done many pickup veteran dungeons as a tank with CP810 damage dealers who had a really hard time to kill simple bosses. I think when you see that we can Out-DPS mechanics it is because the players involved are highly optimized in gear and in skills rotation for PvE content. CP is a minimal factor for damage output compared to Skill Optimization, Mechanics knowledge and Gear. This must be particularly true on PC compared to Console, where add ons significantly help DPS or gathering knowledge on improving DPS.

And when you see the clear contrast in difficulty between killing a world boss, Fungal Grotto last boss and the new Hardmore trials, I don't think CP is the cause to this imbalanced difficulty, but the content itself should be revisited and adapted to the player base. When One Tamriel was released, everything outside of trials has become much easier because difficulty was meant to be adapted for everyone instead of keeping levels of difficulty.

I agree with you. The issue is not the CP.. it never has been. It's just an easy scapegoat for the devs and for the Class Reps they are listening too, to try to keep ZOS from taking away their true source of Power Creep, which I believe is directly tied to the use of Animation cancelling paired with light attack weaving, and the optimization from the newer gear sets. The more the gear caters to light attacks and the faster your rotation, the more you can get off light attacks the more your skills and armor proc.

There is limited power creep in this game. Only achievable really, by less than half of the playerbase because ZOS keeps nerfing everyone!!!

I can tell you right now, it's not the majority of the player base that is just stacking and burning dungeon & trials bosses. Most who don't meet the elite tier criteria have to closely follow mechanics or die.
In trying to bring these tier of players in line, by all the nerfs, there have been a large group of players that either haven't progressed in power at all over the last two years, or have actually continually lost power with each update, despite updating their toons with the new gear, and the meta. If you can't animation cancel and have a perfect rotation. You're just screwed.

Most players don't play that way. They find rotations detious and not fun.

The only time in this game, when it was less of an issue is when our attributes were capped. This also allowed for a lot more diversity in builds. Hybrid builds were actually viable, unlike now. Then, if they are worried about the overpower elite guilds like Hodor stacking and burning mechanics.. Cap the max achievable DPS too!! It's honestly the only way that this game is going to be able to fix things. They can change the CP numbers all they want, give less and less back, but the DPS differential caused by the Player Skill Gap caused from the reliance on Animation Canceling with Light attack weaving will remain, because it was an unintended mechanic of having a responsive system to allow for blocking. It is something they can't fix, and because of that, have stated it's not an expliot. If they could fix it, they would have by now.

Listening too much to Youtubers and Steamers will do nothing but hurt this game. Their main concern is keeping themselves at the top, so they get more views, more web page hits, and more revenue. Their concern is NOT with the general player base, only what they can exploit from it.

Want mechanics you can't stack and burn?... how about put a damage shield around a boss in a trials, where several members of the team, must remove themselves from DPSing and stand on a certain object to trigger something that takes down that bosses shield. The faster you DPS, the more often that sheild is replaced. Those make for interesting mechanics.

BUT... ZOS really needs to figure out who this game is for. The more they tune things to the high end super high dps players, the more they turning away everyone. They should be working on ways to open up content to more people. Working on ways to encourage more people into vet trials and vet dungeons, but instead, more and more players are being locked out of them, so they don't buy the DLC dungeon content, or instead of subbing for the full year, they will sub once or twice a year and that's it. Old content also needs to be much easier than newer content and that cycle needs to continue as new content is released.

When you have to use gimmicks like daily log in rewards, which are used to boost numbers for investors, you know you are going in the wrong direction somewhere, and you have to change. So ZOS really needs to look hard at the numbers in this game and look at what players are doing what combat. What the moderate player base is pulling for dps compared to the elite end game players like those in Hodor.

I think the more you try to make this a hard core MMO, the more you are going to end up hurting those players who came here for an Elder Scrolls game. Yeah, yeah, I get it, it's an MMO... but it doesn't need to be a hard core MMO. But it does need to be fun for the majority of the player base. You are already screwing with the Lore.. and while some changes were made, to balance things out, there are a few things you are going to have to fix. There are already players wanting an opt-out of DLC Dungeons in the Group Finder.

Just think.. how many new players does this game have, since they announced the Elsweyr Chapter?? How many will we see when it's released? How many of them are going to be turned off when they see what this game is really like once they are done with their quests and want to get into harder content? We are 5 years into this game!!! It should have it **** together by now! But it doesn't!

Either way... CP is not the issue... the lack of CAPS on attributes and max achievable DPS is, considering ZOS is allowing the use of mechanics not originally intended and cannot be pulled off by the majority of the player base due to disability, or lag from the game server and their own internet providers.