Rework: Champion Points System [version 1]

joaaocaampos

After several weeks rewriting the Champion Points System, I finally have something to show! It's not perfect. It's not a new system. It's a rework! I wasted my time thinking about it. Of course I didn't stop living because of it. It was a gradual process. Although I expose my work now, I still have the feeling that it's not finished yet. That's why I need your help. ZOS can use what I wrote as the basis for something better. All I hope is that we can have a healthy and constructive discussion.

Your feedback is welcome!

Well... It all started after I read this:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Champion Points
We spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed). The Devs indicated that the CP system is intended to counter-balance itself, that is, I can get X% buff, but that is negated by your -X% buff. The Devs indicated the way multipliers and other mechanics currently work means that counter-balance is not quite right. The class reps agreed and added the problem goes deeper; since Bosses don’t have CP, they aren’t getting the -X% modifiers. The end result is that players quickly out-scale and become too strong for any PvE content that gets released.

We also said it was unfortunate that much of our class identity has been taken away because the Champion System (and gear) has so much power.

Power Creep exists and is an issue. As you all know, CP cap will not increase until ZOS resolves this problem. "I loved it, that was the best decision!" "I hate it, my characters need to keep becoming gods. This is RPG!" Some players like CP System, the feeling of progression. Others hate it and want to completely remove the CP System, make it disappear. I particularly like the CP System, and that's why I wrote a rework! Well... As I wrote this rework, I thought "players hate nerfs". Yeah, I hate it too. But unfortunately it's necessary. I'd like to solve two problems at once: I want my characters to become stronger without "power creep".

Anyway ... Let's get right to the point! I will try to summarize the main changes:

• Today there are only 4 (white) Stars per Constellation to distribute CPs. The other 4 Stars are (yellow and) unlocked after distributing 10, 30, 75 and 120 CPs in the Constellation. Example: in the blue constellation "The Apprentice", you can put CPs in Blessed, Elemental Expert, Elfborn and Spell Erosion. The other 4 yellow Stars (Vengeance, Spell Precision, Foresight and Arcane Well) are unlocked by putting 10, 30, 75 and 120 CPs respectively in "The Apprentice".
• I'm suggesting something new: There will now be 8 (white) Stars per Constellation to distribute CPs! But the yellow Stars have not been completely removed. Most of them have become white Stars or have been integrated into the existing white Stars. Example: "Spell Precision" is now a white Star. And some white Stars also have a second effect, the effect of a yellow Star. Example: Sprinter + Windrunning², that is, "Reduces the cost of Sprint by [0-20]%. // Increases your Health and Magicka Recovery while Sprinting by [0-10]%".
• As you noted above, Spell Precision is now a white Star. That is, you can have 10% Spell Critical by putting 100 CPs in Spell Precision. It's not 9% nor 15%.
• All "The Mage" Stars have a maximum bonus of 10%. The counterpoint in "The Warrior" as well. With 100 CPs in Spell Erosion or Piercing, you can now have 3960 Penetration. This value before was 5280.
• The maximum bonus of many Stars has been reduced. There is no more "15%" "25%" "35%" etc. Values are now "10%", "20%", "30%" etc. The Stars most affected are those that directly affect combat: 15 and 25% are now 10%; 35 and 55% are now 20% (obs.: Physical Weapon Expert or Staff Expert have a maximum bonus of 35%, but even so have been reduced to 10%).
• Some values are marked as "X" and will be determined by ZOS. Example: [0-X].
• Many Stars have been fragmented: Elemental Expert became "Flame Expert", "Frost Expert", "Shock Expert" and "Magic Expert". In addition, there are several new Stars, with new bonuses.
• There is no Star name. ZOS is going to decide that.

Below I will be describing ALL Stars. Some stars have only 1 effect, the normal effect. Other Stars have 2 effects. Second effect will be after "//" and represent an effect of the old Yellow Stars. Description: (... normal effect...) // (... special - yellow Star effect...). Above, I mentioned the example of Sprinter + Windrunning² "Reduces the cost of Sprint by [0-20]%. // Increases your Health and Magicka Recovery while Sprinting by [0-10]%". That is, you get both effects at the same time, putting CPs in the Star.

I only mentioned "yellow Stars", but there are also green and blue Stars. Doesn't matter. These are the unlocked Stars by putting 10, 30, 75 and 120 CPs in a certain Constellations.

Constellations

The Thief

• The Tower
  • When you deal damage with a Light or Heavy Attack, you decrease the enemy's Health resource restore and Recovery by [0-10]% for 6 seconds.
  • When you deal damage with a Light or Heavy Attack, you decrease the enemy's Stamina resource restore and Recovery by [0-10]% for 6 seconds.
  • When you deal damage with a Light or Heavy Attack, you decrease the enemy's Magicka resource restore and Recovery by [0-10]% for 6 seconds.
  • Reduces the cost of Break Free by [0-10]%. // When you use Break Free, the cost of your next Stamina ability used within 5 seconds is reduced by [0-10]%.
  • Reduces the cost of Bash by [0-20]%. // When you use Bash, you have a 25% chance to heal for [0-X] Health and reduce the enemy's Movement Speed by [0-10]% for 3 seconds.
  • Reduces the cost of Sprint by [0-20]%. // Increases your Health and Magicka Recovery while Sprinting by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Swimming Speed by [0-30]%.
  • Reduces your gathering time by [0-60]%. You have a [0-20]% chance to gain double the yield from normal resource nodes.
• The Lover
  • Increases your Health Recovery by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Stamina Recovery by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Magicka Recovery by [0-10]%.
  • Increases the Magicka your fully-charged Heavy Attacks restore by [0-10]%.
  • Increases the Stamina your fully-charged Heavy Attacks restore by [0-10]%.
  • Increase the duration of potion effects by [0-10]%. // When you drink a potion, the cost of your next Magicka ability used within 7 seconds is reduced by [0-10]%.
  • Reduce the cooldown of potions by [0-10]%. // When you drink a potion, you gain a damage shield that absorbs [0-X] damage for 15 seconds.
  • Increases your chance to gain 1 additional Ultimate when you gain Ultimate by [0-20]%. // When you activate a synergy ability, you have a [0-30]% chance to generate 2 Ultimate.
• The Shadow
  • Reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by [0-10]%. // When you use Roll Dodge to dodge an attack, you have a [0-20]% chance to set the enemy Off Balance.
  • Reduces the cost of Block by [0-10]%. // When you activate Block, you gain a damage shield that absorbs [0-X] damage for 3 seconds.
  • Reduces the cost of Sneak by [0-20]%. // When you kill an enemy with a Heavy Attack, you have a [0-20]% chance to become invisible for 3 seconds.
  • Increases the radius you can detect Sneaking enemies by [0-20]%.
  • Reduces the size of your detection area while Sneaking by [0-20]%.
  • Increases the effectiveness of healing reduction abilities by [0-20]%.
  • Reduces the cost of repairing your armor by [0-30]%.
  • Increases the amount of gold you find in slain enemies, treasure chests and safeboxes by [0-50]%. // 15 CPs here unlocks: Increases the quality of items you find in treasure chests.

The Mage

• The Apprentice
  • Increases your Flame Damage done by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Frost Damage done by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Shock Damage done by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Magic Damage done by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Spell Critical by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Critical Damage with Magicka abilities by [0-10]%. // When you deal deal direct Critical Damage, you heal for [0-75] Health.
  • Increases your Critical Healing with Magicka abilities by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Spell Penetration by [0-3960].
• The Atronach
  • Increases your healing done with direct healing abilities by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your healing done with healing over time abilities by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your damage done with direct damage attacks by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your damage done with damage over time effects by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your damage done to blocking targets by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your damage done against Off Balance enemies by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your damage done with Light and Heavy Attacks for Two Handed, One Hand and Shield, Dual Wield, and Bow weapons, as well as in Werewolf form by [0-10]%. // Light and Heavy Attacks deal [0-10]% extra damage to targets below 25% Health.
  • Increases your damage done with Light and Heavy Attacks for Destruction and Restoration Staves by [0-10]%. // Light and Heavy Attacks deal [0-10]% extra damage to targets below 25% Health.
• The Ritual
  • Increases your Physical Damage done by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Poison Damage done by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Disease Damage done by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Weapon Critical by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Critical Damage with Stamina abilities by [0-10]%. // When you deal deal direct Critical Damage, you heal for [0-75] Health.
  • Increases your Critical Healing with Stamina abilities by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your damage done to enemies with a damage shield by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Physical Penetration by [0-3960].

The Warrior

• The Steed
  • Reduces your damage taken against direct damage attacks by [0-10]%.
  • Reduces your damage taken from damage over time effects by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your block mitigation by [0-10]%.
  • Reduces the duration of all snare, fear, stun and disorient effects on you by [0-20]%.
  • Reduces your damage taken from Siege Weapons by [0-30]%.
  • Increases your Critical Resistance by [0-660]. // When you take Critical Damage, you heal for [0-X] Health.
  • Increases your Spell Resistance by [0-3960].
  • Increases your Physical Resistance by [0-3960] while wearing 5 or more pieces of Medium Armor. // When you use Roll Dodge, your Physical and Spell Resistance is increased by [0-660] for 3 seconds.
• The Lady
  • Reduces your damage taken from Flame Damage by [0-10]%. // When you take Flame Damage equal to 30% of your Max Health, you restore [0-75] Magicka.
  • Reduces your damage taken from Frost Damage by [0-10]%. // When you take Frost Damage equal to 30% of your Max Health, you restore [0-75] Magicka.
  • Reduces your damage taken from Shock Damage by [0-10]%. // When you take Shock Damage equal to 30% of your Max Health, you restore [0-75] Magicka.
  • Reduces your damage taken from Magic Damage by [0-10]%. // When you take Magic Damage equal to 30% of your Max Health, you restore [0-75] Magicka.
  • Reduces your damage taken from Physical Damage by [0-10]%.
  • Reduces your damage taken from Poison Damage by [0-10]%.
  • Reduces your damage taken from Disease Damage by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your Physical Resistance by [0-3960] while wearing 5 or more pieces of Light Armor. // While you have a Shield or Frost Staff equipped, your Physical and Spell Resistance is increased by [0-1500].
• The Lord
  • Increases your healing received by [0-10]%.
  • Reduces your damage taken from Bleed Damage by [0-10]%.
  • Reduces your damage taken from Oblivion Damage by [0-10]%. // When you take Oblivion Damage equal to 30% of your Max Health, you restore [0-75] Magicka.
  • Reduces your damage taken while using a damage shield by [0-10]%.
  • Reduces your damage taken from player Light and Heavy Attacks by [0-10]%.
  • Increases your resurrection speed by [0-20]%. // When you resurrect another player, you increase their Magicka Recovery by [0-X] for 8 seconds.
  • Reduces your damage taken while resurrecting another player by [0-20]%. // When you are ressurrected by another player, you gain a damage shield that absorbs [0-X] damage for 5 seconds.
  • Increases your Physical Resistance by [0-3960] while wearing 5 or more pieces of Heavy Armor. // While you have a Shield or Frost Staff equipped, your Physical and Spell Resistance is increased by [0-1500].

Some yellow Stars have not yet been included.

• When you die, you heal all allies within 8 meters of you for [0-X] Health.
• Improves your mastery with mounts, removing all mount Stamina costs outside of combat.
• Increases your crafting inspiration gained by [0-X]%.
• When you block three spells within 10 seconds of each other, your next Magicka ability used within 5 seconds will always be a Critical Strike.
• When you kill an enemy, you have a 20% chance to restore [0-X] Magicka for up to 3 friendly targets within 2.5 meters of the enemy.
• When you block a Heavy Attack, your next Light Attack used within 7 seconds deals 30% additional damage.
• When you block a melee attack, you have a 15% chance to deal [0-X] Physical Damage to the enemy.
• When you interrupt an enemy, your next Physical Damage ability used within 7 seconds deals 15% additional damage.
• When you fall below 20% Health you gain Major Heroism, granting 3 Ultimate every 1.5 seconds for 8 seconds. This effect can occur once every 20 secondos.

Also, there are other interesting Stars.

• Increases the duration of Major and Minor buffs you apply to yourself by [0-20]%.
• Increases the range of your abilities by [0-20]%.

As you may have noticed, many values have changed. If you could have up to 35% increased damage with Light and Heavy Attacks (through Physical Weapon Expert or Staff Expert), you can only have up to 10% now! Also, if you are a healer, you could have your healing increased by 15% after putting 100 CPs on Blessed. Now you will need 200 CPs to have a 10% bonus. "Number Squish"!

With these changes, CP cap may increase beyond 810. Power Creep will be dead for some time.

As I said up there, reworking the Champion System lasted several weeks. And the Stars had different versions. The end result is completely different from the initial one.

Example? Physical Weapon Expert and Staff Expert have also been fragmented in a previous version. But this concept has been eliminated.

I will be reading all feedbacks and constantly updating the Constellations. Feel free to suggest.

Thank you so much for reading my post.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Jessica_Folsom @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_Gilliam @Alcast @Joy_Division @Masel @Liofa @Tasear @Turelus

Editing... 1: Although I suggest percentage, rework can also work with absolute numbers (see Racial changes)!

• When you deal damage with a Light or Heavy Attack, you decrease the enemy's Stamina resource restore and Recovery by [0-10]% [0-129] for 6 seconds.
• Reduces the cost of Bash by [0-20]% 243.
• Increases your Stamina Recovery by [0-10]% [0-129].
• Increases your Spell Critical by [0-10]% 2191.
• Etc...

Tornaad

That is a lot of work you did @joaaocaampos. Serious kudos. Maybe you can help flesh out an idea a friend of mine presented, that I really like.
Instead of general buffs, have the champion system become something to create a more specialized class experience, that could if done right, potentially make each character feel unique.

For example, through the replacement to the champion points, make it so that if you are playing a Nightblade, you will have one set of options that play to your class, and if you are playing a Warden you have a different set.
Example of possible customizations could include changes to how your skills and abilities look as well as adding class based effects to your non-class based skills. So with the Necromancer class instead of simply having a dragon themed ability set, maybe they take you down something similar to Manimarco's ability set via the customization. Additionally maybe when you strike with a Lethal Arrow, a Nightblade will be temporarily cloaked in shadow, while the Templar might activate a limited healing aura for his friends.

The one down side I can think of is that it would take a lot to implement, but the upside is the possible customization options.

Uryel

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed)

Ah, this is hilarious. Sorry mate, I'm not commenting on your new system, just on that quote I had not noticed before...

Rather than belief, they should have facts. Fact is, they're breaking sh*t so much, THAT causes the issues. If players are able to "avoid a mechanic", then it is a mechanic by itself. Or the mechanic was poorly designed in the first place. Quite frankly, I'd rather there is a way to avoid it if you're clever enough than the mandatory "you must have X or else you insta die", which is a forced and cheap way to do things.

As for "not making difficult build choices", let me laugh, please. This game is one of the easiest ever when it comes to builds, since you really have ONE choce to make : stamina or magicka. Everything else comes from that. It's a design flaw from day 1. And since most skills don't even have an optionbetween either stamina or magicka, basically you just pick whatever you like that sticks to your main ressource and roll with the punches. Or ask some uber trial player for what's best do grab that extra 1% DPS and practice the rotation, and that's ONLY if you care about high end stuff.

There is no "issue", just the missguided belief that balance should happen in PvE and be based on PvP. Hence the update 21 breaking a sh*t ton of things just for the sake of "equalizing". There should never be any for of equalizing. Race / class / weapon / skills combo should be amazing at something and way less amazing at something else, and then you chose what you like best. Instead we're going for a "let's make everything mild and watered down, but at least you can do pretty good in pretty much any area". And they do complain about not having us making difficult choices ? They are the one taking that away from us.

You guys at ZOS want us to make difficult choices ? Give us more valid options, like more than 2 morphs per skill, one always being a magicka one, one always being a stamina one, and at the very least one other so that there is actually a choice. Change combat so that your damage is not tied to your max ressource, so hybrids become viable. Give tanks AoE taunts, so healers become extremely needed. Give us proper crowd control that can held an enemy indefinetely so long as we have the ressource to do so (like in pretty much every slightly older game ever). Fix pet AI and make them more controllable. There are a dozen ways to have us "make difficult choices", and none of them has even been explored, because PvP balance.

The whole balance and combat approach the team has is a joke. I hereby rename the Maths Team "John Snow". Because they obviously know nothing. Of course I jest, they know, they just don't give a damn.

ZeroXFF

This still doesn't address the issue of having twice as much stuff to balance with CP/non-CP campaigns.

Nestor

More build diversity is always good. However, there will always be some Meta that does .5% more DPS that everyone will insist will be the only way to play.

I propose changes along the lines of what you have outlined, but also add a damage/resist/regeneration cap that is like 95% of the theoretical max. Set it so most decent builds can reach this cap.

Nemesis7884

Champion points have become such a redundant "have to" feature instead of something to increase your individuality that i wish they would just scrapp it altogether and come up with something completly new and fresh

Ladislao

If I understood correctly, OP suggests weakening all the stars in order to reduce the impact of champion system. But how will this stop power creep as the number of points increases? Just slow it down a bit.

Sergykid

when one player makes game mechanics alone by himself based on public data goes against game devs that have meetings and discussions over more private and invisible statistics

joaaocaampos

Zuboko wrote: »

That is a lot of work you did @joaaocaampos. Serious kudos. Maybe you can help flesh out an idea a friend of mine presented, that I really like.
Instead of general buffs, have the champion system become something to create a more specialized class experience, that could if done right, potentially make each character feel unique.

The one down side I can think of is that it would take a lot to implement, but the upside is the possible customization options.

It's a good idea, but... I don't know if something like this would be implemented. My suggestion is a rework. Your suggestion is to create a new system. Something like this could be created, but in the future. There is a bigger problem to solve now: power creep.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

This still doesn't address the issue of having twice as much stuff to balance with CP/non-CP campaigns.

In my opinion, and I may be wrong, ZOS should only worry about balancing involving non-CP campaigns. The Champion Points system itself is a balanced system. "Elemental Expert vs Elemental Defender" "Elfborn and Precise Strikes vs Resistant" "Spell Erosion vs Spell Shield" "Healthy, Mooncalf and Arcanist vs Siphoner" etc.

Nestor wrote: »

More build diversity is always good. However, there will always be some Meta that does .5% more DPS that everyone will insist will be the only way to play.

I propose changes along the lines of what you have outlined, but also add a damage/resist/regeneration cap that is like 95% of the theoretical max. Set it so most decent builds can reach this cap.

Yeah! Instead of Elemental Expert, Magicka DKs will focus on "Flame Expert". That's great! And "meta" is something inevitable. Well... In fact, "CP meta" is not a problem. Power creep is.

"95% of the theoretical max" How does it work?

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Champion points have become such a redundant "have to" feature instead of something to increase your individuality that i wish they would just scrapp it altogether and come up with something completly new and fresh

Agree. "Zuboko" commented the same thing on the first answer.

Ladislao wrote: »

If I understood correctly, OP suggests weakening all the stars in order to reduce the impact of champion system. But how will this stop power creep as the number of points increases? Just slow it down a bit.

My rework is not just weakening all the Stars. There are more Stars now. Thats is, current builds recommend you have 49 CPs in Hardy and Elemental Defender, right? It's only 2 Stars. If you want the same effect now, you have to distribute CPs in 7 Stars!

joaaocaampos

Sergykid wrote: »

when one player makes game mechanics alone by himself based on public data goes against game devs that have meetings and discussions over more private and invisible statistics

This is just a suggestion. Besides that, many changes came from forums. They can read this and build on it to create something better.

Narvuntien

I really like the fragmentation idea where the current system is a bit brain dead with put points into damage regen and resists.

A new system when you have to think about which damage and which resists and more situational stars you'll be able to get more points every DLC without feeling all damage just raise. The diminishing rewards changes really help this in that you wont feel too useless.

It could also act as something of a gold sink for high-level players that will change their CP for each trial.

joaaocaampos

Narvuntien wrote: »

I really like the fragmentation idea where the current system is a bit brain dead with put points into damage regen and resists.

A new system when you have to think about which damage and which resists and more situational stars you'll be able to get more points every DLC without feeling all damage just raise. The diminishing rewards changes really help this in that you wont feel too useless.

It could also act as something of a gold sink for high-level players that will change their CP for each trial.

Exactly! It's not just solving the power creep problem, but generating diversity of build and situations.

Zedrian

I am confused at @ZOS_GinaBruno 's comments because which players are affected by this power increase from CP? Are the High level trials players concerned or is it the more casual PvE player concerned? And what should these players be able to clear as content with the right balance of time and effort in working on content and difficulty?

I have done many pickup veteran dungeons as a tank with CP810 damage dealers who had a really hard time to kill simple bosses. I think when you see that we can Out-DPS mechanics it is because the players involved are highly optimized in gear and in skills rotation for PvE content. CP is a minimal factor for damage output compared to Skill Optimization, Mechanics knowledge and Gear. This must be particularly true on PC compared to Console, where add ons significantly help DPS or gathering knowledge on improving DPS.

And when you see the clear contrast in difficulty between killing a world boss, Fungal Grotto last boss and the new Hardmore trials, I don't think CP is the cause to this imbalanced difficulty, but the content itself should be revisited and adapted to the player base. When One Tamriel was released, everything outside of trials has become much easier because difficulty was meant to be adapted for everyone instead of keeping levels of difficulty.

vamp_emily

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Champion Points
We spent a fair amount of time discussing the Champion Point system because it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed). The Devs indicated that the CP system is intended to counter-balance itself, that is, I can get X% buff, but that is negated by your -X% buff. The Devs indicated the way multipliers and other mechanics currently work means that counter-balance is not quite right. The class reps agreed and added the problem goes deeper; since Bosses don’t have CP, they aren’t getting the -X% modifiers. The end result is that players quickly out-scale and become too strong for any PvE content that gets released.

We also said it was unfortunate that much of our class identity has been taken away because the Champion System (and gear) has so much power.

This does not sound good for many players. I suggest doing as much as you can ( achievements or dungeon/trials ) before they make a change.

Shiredo

As long as it doesn't give too much advantage against lower level players.
Ideally the system should provide a bigger range of upgrades to chose from and less points to spend, letting people properly specialise their character rather than making an all-round char that will let someone tank heal and damage at once.

josiahva

You can count my support out...the LAST thing I want is the CP system to be convoluted than it already is.

joaaocaampos

Shiredo wrote: »

As long as it doesn't give too much advantage against lower level players.
Ideally the system should provide a bigger range of upgrades to chose from and less points to spend, letting people properly specialise their character rather than making an all-round char that will let someone tank heal and damage at once.

That is exactly what is there. The difference (in CP) between a new and a veteran player will be shortened. And now there are 8 white Stars instead of 4. More options, better customization.

Well... I created a system with 8 white Stars per Constellation. But if it had 12 white Stars per Constellation, it would be better. I just don't know what new effects to add.

joaaocaampos

josiahva wrote: »

You can count my support out...the LAST thing I want is the CP system to be convoluted than it already is.

Thank you!

The green/blue/yellow Stars system is awful. Magicka chars are required to have 75 CPs in "The Ritual" Constellation to unlock the blue Star "Exploiter". Most new players don't know this.

This is a stupid system.

Acrolas

One of the fundamental problems with CP is that it's functioning more like Game Genie cheat codes than the progression you'd find on a tabletop RPG character sheet. The goal should be to make the system lean. More stars would just be a more complicated system of calculations.

The easy answer feels like returning to soft cap attribute categories with a quarterly evaluation of the hard cap on those attributes. Any unspent attribute points can be spent on bonus situational perks like the current War Mount or Treasure Hunter. No PVP-only perks of any kind.

Popular CP features left without a home can be rolled into future gear sets or used to revise underperforming current sets.

phantasmalD

Not to diss all the time you poured into this but I fail to see how this solves the issue of power creep, you are just slowing down player progression, nerfing numbers and delaying the inevitable moment when players have enough CP to buy everything.
Tho I don't think that issue is even solvable in the first place, a progression system without getting stronger is just a pointless number allocating minigame.

You don't create any meaningful choices. One of the biggest flaws in the CP imo is that you don't have to choose between better defences and higher attack, you can have both as they are under different trees and use different currency. Like choosing between better stamina or magicka recovery is not a choice, you'll obviously go with your main resource.

Breaking up general magicka damage boost into different elemental types doesn't create any kind of significant choice either. You'll just put your points into the one that's most appropriate for your build (e.g DKs put everything into fire damage boosts) and ignore the rest. It's just clutter.
Same with physical damage and healing types.

Fragmenting resistances is a slightly more impactful I guess but only because of PvP. In PvE everyone will just reallocate all the points into the one relevant resistance so it ends up being a mindless, tedious gold sink (tho people already kinda do this I believe). In PvP it just creates a rock-paper-scissor scenario where you get screwed because your opponent invested into the resistance against your main type of damage.

Some of your ideas do encourage experimenting with different builds and offer some non-combat options, so that's kinda nice I guess.

Removing/converting the yellow stars into white stars removes any point of breaking thing up into sub-constellations (other than visibility). I'm also not sure how I feel about simplifying the two-tier system into just one tier.

Ranger209

I think all of your damage, healing, and mitigation percentages need to cap at 5% rather than 10%. Just my opinion but I think 10% compounded by multiple CP trees is still too much. If we are trying to limit power creep.

Casul

Personally I feel like CP should only affect non combat things such as gold amount and experience gained etc. it would help balance PvP a lot more because you wouldn’t have to worry about specific sets having to strong of synergy with CP. for PvE they would just have to evaluate if the content can still be cleared effectively and if it can’t then do a blanket buff for trials and 4 mans dungeons similar to battle spirit.

cguiao

Awesome Job Joaocampos, i did like it, but as others pointed out it slows down the powercreep but doesen´t eliminate it completely. Still a nice job!

SoLooney

Power creep is normal and fine for a game as updates roll out

I honestly dont see why power creep is an issue. All I see from updates are nerfs to sets, classes, etc anyways

Pve isnt an issue but i guess cp is a big problem in pvp.

Either grind for that cp or play in non cp campaigns or just separate pve and pvp like it should be instead of zos being lazy af

Zhoyzu

josiahva wrote: »

You can count my support out...the LAST thing I want is the CP system to be convoluted than it already is.

even with all its flaws its still better than the veteran system was. At least now youre effectively done grinding at level 50 and the CP just fall in place.

Tasear

It's nice and simple but hoping that rework provides more progression.

Chicharron

TLDR please.

Ratzkifal

I like the freedom of your system, but obviously balance is still a mess. For example 30% reduced damage from siege weapons is insane especially if you consider that their damage already gets reduced for being physical/fire/shock/etc.

Here is my issue with it though: This is pretty much exactly like the old system. You just cut the total power of it and that will make people who like progression very frustrated because playing one year after will have earned them say 3% more dps and they can't feel that at all. They'll feel like they are stagnating and quit.
If you take the other approach and double down on the diminishing returns but leave the gain uncapped/make generous increases every update, then you'll just have the same problem again in a few years while some players already reached the new max of 1000 CP after just three weeks of permanent grind.

I have a suggestion for your system that helps a little with what ZOS had in mind while fixing some of the issues but not all. Make it so that You can spent all of your 810 CP in any tree. For the sake of simplicity, imagine the current system but your CP are were cut down to 1/3, which you can freely distribute in the mage, thief and/or warrior as you wish. If you want more damage, you have to sacrifice survivability and sustain. Even if people put everything into damage on the first day after the patch, the next updates they will be busy putting the newly unlocked points into sustain and survivability. It doesn't fix the systemic flaws of the CP system, but it can buy it more time and would make your approach feel a tad less frustrating. Perhaps it could even be made so that you can exceed your limit in one constellation, but suffer a reduction in the other constellations.

NewBlacksmurf

In short...VR = CP and both should have been fully removed. Not replaced or meshed together.

Your work depicts a tremendous amount of issues I’ve been hoping to point out ever since the ideas of CP were added on PTS years ago

JaZ2091

Uryel wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

it is our belief that the power creep in this system is responsible for many of the issues ZOS is trying to address in the first place (such as players being able to avoid mechanics, not have to make difficult build choices, and the feeling that healers are not needed)

Ah, this is hilarious. Sorry mate, I'm not commenting on your new system, just on that quote I had not noticed before...

Rather than belief, they should have facts. Fact is, they're breaking sh*t so much, THAT causes the issues. If players are able to "avoid a mechanic", then it is a mechanic by itself. Or the mechanic was poorly designed in the first place. Quite frankly, I'd rather there is a way to avoid it if you're clever enough than the mandatory "you must have X or else you insta die", which is a forced and cheap way to do things.

As for "not making difficult build choices", let me laugh, please. This game is one of the easiest ever when it comes to builds, since you really have ONE choce to make : stamina or magicka. Everything else comes from that. It's a design flaw from day 1. And since most skills don't even have an optionbetween either stamina or magicka, basically you just pick whatever you like that sticks to your main ressource and roll with the punches. Or ask some uber trial player for what's best do grab that extra 1% DPS and practice the rotation, and that's ONLY if you care about high end stuff.

There is no "issue", just the missguided belief that balance should happen in PvE and be based on PvP. Hence the update 21 breaking a sh*t ton of things just for the sake of "equalizing". There should never be any for of equalizing. Race / class / weapon / skills combo should be amazing at something and way less amazing at something else, and then you chose what you like best. Instead we're going for a "let's make everything mild and watered down, but at least you can do pretty good in pretty much any area". And they do complain about not having us making difficult choices ? They are the one taking that away from us.

You guys at ZOS want us to make difficult choices ? Give us more valid options, like more than 2 morphs per skill, one always being a magicka one, one always being a stamina one, and at the very least one other so that there is actually a choice. Change combat so that your damage is not tied to your max ressource, so hybrids become viable. Give tanks AoE taunts, so healers become extremely needed. Give us proper crowd control that can held an enemy indefinetely so long as we have the ressource to do so (like in pretty much every slightly older game ever). Fix pet AI and make them more controllable. There are a dozen ways to have us "make difficult choices", and none of them has even been explored, because PvP balance.

The whole balance and combat approach the team has is a joke. I hereby rename the Maths Team "John Snow". Because they obviously know nothing. Of course I jest, they know, they just don't give a damn.

Exactly. They claim one thing is the root of all problems when in reality its a multitude. The hardest thing about making a build is farming the gear or saving gold to buy it. The morphs, attributes, pets, was spot on. The healers not needed is full of crap. Yeah for speed runs maybe where top players are following mechanics and slotting some self heals. But other than that, that statement is full of dog ***. I still encounter many players at max CP who have difficulty completing even normal trials.

Mr_Walker

People don't do maths well. CP is heavily front loaded. It's certainlynot the driver from 20K dps to 50k dps in anyone's wildest dreams, but yes, this is an RPG, and progression is a staple of the genre since day one. Don't like progression? Don't allocate your CP.