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Disappointed in the new Khajiit

WoppaBoem
WoppaBoem
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The increased crit change for Spell and Weapon damage was exciting. And no I am not a mix maxer just thought 2 hybrid races is very fun the dunmer and Khajiit. Increased crit damage and heals is already available via CP so really a bit boring as CP is quite boring really. Increased crit for both weapon and spell damage opened up good builds with pelinial. Change your setup from stam to magicka.

Plus increased crit really seems to fit a big cat while increased damage yeah maybe but as stated not so exciting. Regardless of the maths and testing people do. For a casual gamer the increased crit change really brought something new. Increased crit damage just doesn't. Please change it back to previous version. Thank you.
Edited by WoppaBoem on February 11, 2019 8:32PM
Xbox EU - EP

Main MagDK - PVP Rock Star

  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    I'll agree. Testing, of course, will show whether it's a buff or not (and on which builds), but there are many sources of (additive) critical damage in the game. The bonus is... just dull. Critical chance was something feline in nature; critical damage is... just another Minor Force or some CP points spent.
  • twing1_
    twing1_
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    On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

    On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
    validifyedneb18_ESO
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    Well, the crit damage still applies to both stam and mag.

    The community in general has no clue if its even worse, better, or straight up OP at the point. Could be anything really. (Probably not OP.)

    You still keep a unique racial focus on crit, just the source of that crit will come from standard places and it just all does more damage. Stylistically more or less the same.
  • WikiMeister
    WikiMeister
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    I would say do not underestimate the power of Critical Effect vs. Critical Chance. Both of these go hand in hand, and in terms of buff abundance, crit eff is much, MUCH harder to get your hands on, available in only select NB and Templar passives, Minor/Major Force buffs, Shadow mundus, and CP; thus making it insanely valuable.

    Critical chance on the flipside, can be built for through set bonuses and weapon choices.
    PC-NA. Beta veteran since 2014.
  • Red_Feather
    Red_Feather
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    Make it so that you get guaranteed crit at more than 90% resource.
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    twing1_ wrote: »
    On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

    On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

    This is wrong info. The Breaking Point is 97.5%. Something, no builds ever reach realistically outside of a few niche builds.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    WoppaBoem wrote: »
    The increased crit change for Spell and Weapon damage was exciting. And no I am not a mix maxer just thought 2 hybrid races is very fun the dunmer and Khajiit. Increased crit damage and heals is already available via CP so really a bit boring as CP is quite boring really. Increased crit for both weapon and spell damage opened up good builds with pelinial. Change your setup from stam to magicka.

    Plus increased crit really seems to fit a big cat while increased damage yeah maybe but as stated not so exciting. Regardless of the maths and testing people do. For a casual gamer the increased crit change really brought something new. Increased crit damage just doesn't. Please change it back to previous version. Thank you.

    Less crit dmg in cp = more penetration

    Khajiit will be a powerhouse netx patch.

    Crit chance, on the other hand, is just meh. For wearing 5 light or medium armor you already get a lot, not to mention all the skills and sets that give that stat, as well as the precise trait. A crit chance race was quite redundant.
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    I'll agree. Testing, of course, will show whether it's a buff or not (and on which builds), but there are many sources of (additive) critical damage in the game. The bonus is... just dull. Critical chance was something feline in nature; critical damage is... just another Minor Force or some CP points spent.

    the sources of crit dmg in the game are much less than crit chance. Crit chance is everywhere, from sets, traits, weapon passives (DW), armor passives, active skills, pots...
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    It literally doesnt change anything, it's only applied to the other side of the multiplication.

    No point from a balance ingredient side to dislike it. You can even build around it better than critical chance, since critical basically forced you into a race with higher crit damage (nb/templar). Critical damage is empowered by critical chance, which is something any class can get easily.
    PC EU - CP 1100+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD and Hobbytank - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Igneous Lizard Wizard - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Spongecroc Scalepants - Warden - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • Jhalin
    Jhalin
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    twing1_ wrote: »
    On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

    On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

    The only way it’s a buff from 4.3.2 is if you’re rocking 75% crit chance

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458613/khajiit-4-3-2-critical-hit-chance-vs-khajiit-4-3-3-critical-hit-damage-breakdown-analysis

    Edited for corrected numbers. 75% is still a ridiculous number and now forces Khajiit to chase stam meta instead of having a variety of pretty much equally viable choices.

    Mag dps for Khajiit got significant nerf with these changes, where they weren’t even over performing in the majority of realistic combat scenarios
    Edited by Jhalin on February 11, 2019 11:10PM
    J'halin - 50 Khajiit Stamblade
    Ziryne - 50 Altmer Magplar, Healer
    Varus Arano - 50 Dunmer MagSorc
    Raza al-Qerik - 50 Redguard DK, Tank
    Darien Sorick - <50 Breton Stamplar, Tank
    Do-Khaizo - <50 Khajiit Stamden
    Caerdolos - <50 Dunmer ("Maormer") StamSorc
    Varona Drelos - 50 Dunmer Magblade
  • argouru
    argouru
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    I think they want khajiit to be a powerful race this time around because of the upcoming themed zone for them in the next update after this one. They'll likely end up heavily nerfed in the next patch after that or maybe next year once their relevance has died down like it did for argonians, hence their racial passives being crippled so bad that the scaled ones will no longer be competitive once this update goes live.
  • WoppaBoem
    WoppaBoem
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    It all seems to make sense you guys are saying. But still it seems really boring to me. I get in the bigger picture this maybe seems to be a better fit overall. However hibrid builds struggle in crit change for both as you will decide for medium armor or light. You get more crit damage for both sides however if you crit change is really low the impact is minimal while 8% crit increase on both sides does a lot.

    And yes the crit change suits once again templars and nightblade more but both of them are top for raids anyway. This change to crit damage does not make a MagDK viable for raids or something.

    I hope Zenimax goes for their initial instict/gut to make two hybrid races not just 1. Then just leave the shadow mundus as is. Also really strange to mix the change of shadow mundus together with the racial updates.
    Xbox EU - EP

    Main MagDK - PVP Rock Star

  • ccmedaddy
    ccmedaddy
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    I'm not sure how I feel about this yet but my first impression is that Khajit will no longer be limited to a NB/Templar race so that's nice.
    dunmer magblade - flawless conqueror
    argonian magden - flawless conqueror
    argonian magplar - flawless conqueror
    dunmer magdk - flawless conqueror
    altmer magsorc - flawless conqueror
    orc werewolf stamsorc - flawless conqueror
    orc stamplar - flawless conqueror
    redguard stamblade - flawless conqueror
    nord stamdk - lvl 5, lost forever in coldharbor
  • Azyle1
    Azyle1
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    So if this is a nerf, how much of a nerf is it?
  • Zelos
    Zelos
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    I like the critical chance of spell and weapon a lot more.
    Aeonhack - DC Stamina Nightblade - 2 Star General

    CP1075
  • ExistingRug61
    Jhalin wrote: »
    twing1_ wrote: »
    On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

    On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

    The only way it’s a buff from 4.3.2 is if you’re rocking 99% crit chance

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458613/khajiit-4-3-2-critical-hit-chance-vs-khajiit-4-3-3-critical-hit-damage-breakdown-analysis

    Looks like there was an error in the first set of calculations, the breakpoint is actually 75% (ie its a buff if you have more than 75% crit)
  • twing1_
    twing1_
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    susmitds wrote: »
    twing1_ wrote: »
    On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

    On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

    This is wrong info. The Breaking Point is 97.5%. Something, no builds ever reach realistically outside of a few niche builds.

    @susmitds

    Could you post the maths behind this please?

    I was using this formula:
    average damage = x*(1+CHD*CHC)

    where x is the sum of offensive power (stam/mag and weapon/spell damage)

    I solved by leaving offensive power as a variable [x] and setting Khajit CHD buff equal to Khajit CHC buff, where y = CHC before Khajit passive and .8278=CHD before khajit passives

    x*(1+(.8278*(y+.08)))=x*(1+(.9278*y))
    1+(.8278y+.066224)=1+.9278y
    .8278y+.066224=.9278y
    .066224=.1y
    .66224=y

    I'm an amateur number cruncher though, so there's a good chance I did something wrong.

    Edit: forgot to mention this also takes into account a nb/temp char, minor force with 100% uptime and 30 points into precise strikes

    Edit2: someone already posted maths

    Edit3: as other people have already noted, it does look like there is an error in your maths
    Edited by twing1_ on February 11, 2019 10:44PM
  • Forztr
    Forztr
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    Well as someone who plays mostly non-CP PVP the new version is borderline useless. At least the previous version every Kitty got the benefit from the passive.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    argouru wrote: »
    I think they want khajiit to be a powerful race this time around because of the upcoming themed zone for them in the next update after this one. They'll likely end up heavily nerfed in the next patch after that or maybe next year once their relevance has died down like it did for argonians, hence their racial passives being crippled so bad that the scaled ones will no longer be competitive once this update goes live.
    Don't think so, note that its two races who got the hybrid treatment. Khajiit and Dunmer, probably the two races there players select race first then build, note that this is an magic nerf and an stamina buff.
    Yes Argonian too but they are pretty hybrid already.
    Neither Khajiit or Dunmer is BiS but both are versatile.

    Seeing the racial lineup, I would guess it was the orsinium release :)

    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    susmitds wrote: »
    twing1_ wrote: »
    On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

    On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

    This is wrong info. The Breaking Point is 97.5%. Something, no builds ever reach realistically outside of a few niche builds.

    Two months from now people are still going to be quoting this misinformation on the forums and in Discords and on Reddit lol.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    LiquidPony wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    twing1_ wrote: »
    On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

    On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

    This is wrong info. The Breaking Point is 97.5%. Something, no builds ever reach realistically outside of a few niche builds.

    Two months from now people are still going to be quoting this misinformation on the forums and in Discords and on Reddit lol.
    Its an good number however, easy to remember so lets remember it :)

    Altmer obviously has lower dps than Dunmer.
    Edited by zaria on February 12, 2019 12:59AM
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Jhalin wrote: »
    twing1_ wrote: »
    On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

    On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

    The only way it’s a buff from 4.3.2 is if you’re rocking 75% crit chance

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458613/khajiit-4-3-2-critical-hit-chance-vs-khajiit-4-3-3-critical-hit-damage-breakdown-analysis

    Edited for corrected numbers. 75% is still a ridiculous number and now forces Khajiit to chase stam meta instead of having a variety of pretty much equally viable choices.

    Mag dps for Khajiit got significant nerf with these changes, where they weren’t even over performing in the majority of realistic combat scenarios

    75% is a very easily reachable number. A build with AY/tsogvins + VO/Relequen:

    3.8%: Perfect Arms of Relequen set bonus #2 (Set.WeaponCrit)
    3.8%: Perfect Arms of Relequen set bonus #4 (Set.WeaponCrit)
    3.8%: Berserking Warrior set bonus #2 (Set.WeaponCrit)
    3.8%: Berserking Warrior set bonus #4 (Set.WeaponCrit)
    9.1%: Berserking Warrior set bonus #5 (Set.WeaponCrit)
    9%: Perfect Strike CP ability (CP.WeaponCrit)
    10.5%: Dexterity 3 passive in Medium Armor line (Skill2.WeaponCrit)
    10%: Twin Blade and Blunt 2 passive in Dual Wield line (Skill2.WeaponCrit)
    4%: Pressure Points 2 passive in Assassination line (Skill2.WeaponCrit)
    10%: Major Savagery buff (Buff.WeaponCrit)
    6%: Minor Savagery buff (Buff.WeaponCrit)

    Totals 83.8%.
    PC EU - CP 1100+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD and Hobbytank - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Igneous Lizard Wizard - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Spongecroc Scalepants - Warden - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • Dr.NRG
    Dr.NRG
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    The change is actually not that bad it enables you to run different kind of build that are rather old school like they used to be back in the days. That’s for pvp, for pve we already figured out in another thread that the dps with passives changes is actually quite good and on or if it even better than other races
    .
  • Joxer61
    Joxer61
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    Other than High Elf wo is going to be the new kid on the block for mag dps?
  • Edziu
    Edziu
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    @Masel
    what if someone dont have access to jsut AY or relequen? as you wrote you dont need to wear them both at once...but still need to wear one of them and without summerset you cant use them (releq just locked in trial here, AY have no use without jewerly transmutation)
    Pro Xp Waster Jaszcz - Khajiit stamina NB, DC EU PC 40AR -main char(no meta cancer build except monster set but its changing situationally)
    Lubisz to Suko - radiantspam repentanting T-bagging Cancerplar (obsolete, retired)
    Bury Zenek - master race Dunmer magdk tonk/dd, argonian slaver (obselote, retired)
    Twin Grakata - stamplar for fun after got sick of NB's meta(Blackrose Executioner)
    1.1k+CP on PC EU [] 28000+ Achievement points [] 2900+ Lorebuks doesnt care anymore about this as stopped play main char (pissed off gathering same achievs again and again...)
    370CP on PC NA (stamplar and stamablade lvled)
    retired from eso since morrowind, back after half of year for short time and again retired after summerset, back with cwc event idk for how long
    DD should gather red circles as many as can
  • IlCanis_LupuslI
    IlCanis_LupuslI
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    Eso I have to use Reliquien in pvp now awesome :unamused:
    Cp 1352
    Xbox-EU-AD

    Khajiit Stamsorc Werewolf, Flawless Conquerer (1st attempt ww form during the entire dungeon) main
    Khajiit(Master Race) Stamplar Werewolf, Flawless Conquerer
    Khajiit Stamina Nightblade(BiS for cuteness)-Flawless Conquerer crafter

    Khajiit Stam dk, Flawless conquerer, 2nd attempt
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQhCmVHwZioVyTEDberxGtA?view_as=public
    Werewolf Veteran player, Since Wolfhunter-DLC "Raid-Wolf", 51.4k dps with fracture,48.5 on stamblade ww
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
    validifyedneb18_ESO
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    Eso I have to use Reliquien in pvp now awesome :unamused:

    Don't think I even need to comment on this one.
  • rafaelcsmaia
    rafaelcsmaia
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    Eso I have to use Reliquien in pvp now awesome :unamused:

    Wut
  • cpuScientist
    cpuScientist
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    Crit chance is actually more difficult to stack. We start with base 50 can get 20 from CP 10 minor 15 major. That's already 95 add in if you are Templar/Nightblade or not and you just broke 100.

    Mag can reach that and so can Stam. Crit chance however, most mag builds do not easily reach 75. Will mean specific builds to take advantage of this change which may not be the BIS builds anyway so this is a mag Nerf. Taking Khajiit out of the running for bis mag race most likely.

    This is a buff however for Nightblade gankers as they are guaranteed a crit when cloaked so this replaces the stealth damage they lost. So yay?
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