Disappointed in the new Khajiit

WoppaBoem

The increased crit change for Spell and Weapon damage was exciting. And no I am not a mix maxer just thought 2 hybrid races is very fun the dunmer and Khajiit. Increased crit damage and heals is already available via CP so really a bit boring as CP is quite boring really. Increased crit for both weapon and spell damage opened up good builds with pelinial. Change your setup from stam to magicka.

Plus increased crit really seems to fit a big cat while increased damage yeah maybe but as stated not so exciting. Regardless of the maths and testing people do. For a casual gamer the increased crit change really brought something new. Increased crit damage just doesn't. Please change it back to previous version. Thank you.

John_Falstaff

I'll agree. Testing, of course, will show whether it's a buff or not (and on which builds), but there are many sources of (additive) critical damage in the game. The bonus is... just dull. Critical chance was something feline in nature; critical damage is... just another Minor Force or some CP points spent.

twing1_

On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

validifyedneb18_ESO

Well, the crit damage still applies to both stam and mag.

The community in general has no clue if its even worse, better, or straight up OP at the point. Could be anything really. (Probably not OP.)

You still keep a unique racial focus on crit, just the source of that crit will come from standard places and it just all does more damage. Stylistically more or less the same.

WikiMeister

I would say do not underestimate the power of Critical Effect vs. Critical Chance. Both of these go hand in hand, and in terms of buff abundance, crit eff is much, MUCH harder to get your hands on, available in only select NB and Templar passives, Minor/Major Force buffs, Shadow mundus, and CP; thus making it insanely valuable.

Critical chance on the flipside, can be built for through set bonuses and weapon choices.

Red_Feather

Make it so that you get guaranteed crit at more than 90% resource.

susmitds

twing1_ wrote: »

On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

This is wrong info. The Breaking Point is 97.5%. Something, no builds ever reach realistically outside of a few niche builds.

Xvorg

WoppaBoem wrote: »

The increased crit change for Spell and Weapon damage was exciting. And no I am not a mix maxer just thought 2 hybrid races is very fun the dunmer and Khajiit. Increased crit damage and heals is already available via CP so really a bit boring as CP is quite boring really. Increased crit for both weapon and spell damage opened up good builds with pelinial. Change your setup from stam to magicka.

Plus increased crit really seems to fit a big cat while increased damage yeah maybe but as stated not so exciting. Regardless of the maths and testing people do. For a casual gamer the increased crit change really brought something new. Increased crit damage just doesn't. Please change it back to previous version. Thank you.

Less crit dmg in cp = more penetration

Khajiit will be a powerhouse netx patch.

Crit chance, on the other hand, is just meh. For wearing 5 light or medium armor you already get a lot, not to mention all the skills and sets that give that stat, as well as the precise trait. A crit chance race was quite redundant.

Xvorg

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I'll agree. Testing, of course, will show whether it's a buff or not (and on which builds), but there are many sources of (additive) critical damage in the game. The bonus is... just dull. Critical chance was something feline in nature; critical damage is... just another Minor Force or some CP points spent.

the sources of crit dmg in the game are much less than crit chance. Crit chance is everywhere, from sets, traits, weapon passives (DW), armor passives, active skills, pots...

Masel

It literally doesnt change anything, it's only applied to the other side of the multiplication.

No point from a balance ingredient side to dislike it. You can even build around it better than critical chance, since critical basically forced you into a race with higher crit damage (nb/templar). Critical damage is empowered by critical chance, which is something any class can get easily.

Jhalin

twing1_ wrote: »

On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

The only way it’s a buff from 4.3.2 is if you’re rocking 75% crit chance

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458613/khajiit-4-3-2-critical-hit-chance-vs-khajiit-4-3-3-critical-hit-damage-breakdown-analysis

Edited for corrected numbers. 75% is still a ridiculous number and now forces Khajiit to chase stam meta instead of having a variety of pretty much equally viable choices.

Mag dps for Khajiit got significant nerf with these changes, where they weren’t even over performing in the majority of realistic combat scenarios

argouru

I think they want khajiit to be a powerful race this time around because of the upcoming themed zone for them in the next update after this one. They'll likely end up heavily nerfed in the next patch after that or maybe next year once their relevance has died down like it did for argonians, hence their racial passives being crippled so bad that the scaled ones will no longer be competitive once this update goes live.

WoppaBoem

It all seems to make sense you guys are saying. But still it seems really boring to me. I get in the bigger picture this maybe seems to be a better fit overall. However hibrid builds struggle in crit change for both as you will decide for medium armor or light. You get more crit damage for both sides however if you crit change is really low the impact is minimal while 8% crit increase on both sides does a lot.

And yes the crit change suits once again templars and nightblade more but both of them are top for raids anyway. This change to crit damage does not make a MagDK viable for raids or something.

I hope Zenimax goes for their initial instict/gut to make two hybrid races not just 1. Then just leave the shadow mundus as is. Also really strange to mix the change of shadow mundus together with the racial updates.

ccmedaddy

I'm not sure how I feel about this yet but my first impression is that Khajit will no longer be limited to a NB/Templar race so that's nice.

Azyle1

So if this is a nerf, how much of a nerf is it?

Zelos

I like the critical chance of spell and weapon a lot more.

ExistingRug61

Jhalin wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

The only way it’s a buff from 4.3.2 is if you’re rocking 99% crit chance

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458613/khajiit-4-3-2-critical-hit-chance-vs-khajiit-4-3-3-critical-hit-damage-breakdown-analysis

Looks like there was an error in the first set of calculations, the breakpoint is actually 75% (ie its a buff if you have more than 75% crit)

twing1_

susmitds wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

This is wrong info. The Breaking Point is 97.5%. Something, no builds ever reach realistically outside of a few niche builds.

@susmitds

Could you post the maths behind this please?

I was using this formula:
average damage = x*(1+CHD*CHC)

where x is the sum of offensive power (stam/mag and weapon/spell damage)

I solved by leaving offensive power as a variable [x] and setting Khajit CHD buff equal to Khajit CHC buff, where y = CHC before Khajit passive and .8278=CHD before khajit passives

x*(1+(.8278*(y+.08)))=x*(1+(.9278*y))
1+(.8278y+.066224)=1+.9278y
.8278y+.066224=.9278y
.066224=.1y
.66224=y

I'm an amateur number cruncher though, so there's a good chance I did something wrong.

Edit: forgot to mention this also takes into account a nb/temp char, minor force with 100% uptime and 30 points into precise strikes

Edit2: someone already posted maths

Edit3: as other people have already noted, it does look like there is an error in your maths

Finedaible

I hate patch 4.3.3 changes. This change makes Khajiit Damage and Healing less reliable than it was in previous patches, and further herds them into Nightblade and Templar roles.

Forztr

Well as someone who plays mostly non-CP PVP the new version is borderline useless. At least the previous version every Kitty got the benefit from the passive.

zaria

argouru wrote: »

I think they want khajiit to be a powerful race this time around because of the upcoming themed zone for them in the next update after this one. They'll likely end up heavily nerfed in the next patch after that or maybe next year once their relevance has died down like it did for argonians, hence their racial passives being crippled so bad that the scaled ones will no longer be competitive once this update goes live.

Don't think so, note that its two races who got the hybrid treatment. Khajiit and Dunmer, probably the two races there players select race first then build, note that this is an magic nerf and an stamina buff.
Yes Argonian too but they are pretty hybrid already.
Neither Khajiit or Dunmer is BiS but both are versatile.

Seeing the racial lineup, I would guess it was the orsinium release

LiquidPony

susmitds wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

This is wrong info. The Breaking Point is 97.5%. Something, no builds ever reach realistically outside of a few niche builds.

Two months from now people are still going to be quoting this misinformation on the forums and in Discords and on Reddit lol.

zaria

LiquidPony wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

This is wrong info. The Breaking Point is 97.5%. Something, no builds ever reach realistically outside of a few niche builds.

Two months from now people are still going to be quoting this misinformation on the forums and in Discords and on Reddit lol.

Its an good number however, easy to remember so lets remember it

Altmer obviously has lower dps than Dunmer.

Masel

Jhalin wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

On high crit builds, it's a buff. On low crit builds, it's a nerf.

On my limited number crunching, the break even point was around 60% crit chance. Higher crit would result in a buff, lower crit would result in a nerf.

The only way it’s a buff from 4.3.2 is if you’re rocking 75% crit chance

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458613/khajiit-4-3-2-critical-hit-chance-vs-khajiit-4-3-3-critical-hit-damage-breakdown-analysis

Edited for corrected numbers. 75% is still a ridiculous number and now forces Khajiit to chase stam meta instead of having a variety of pretty much equally viable choices.

Mag dps for Khajiit got significant nerf with these changes, where they weren’t even over performing in the majority of realistic combat scenarios

75% is a very easily reachable number. A build with AY/tsogvins + VO/Relequen:

3.8%: Perfect Arms of Relequen set bonus #2 (Set.WeaponCrit)
3.8%: Perfect Arms of Relequen set bonus #4 (Set.WeaponCrit)
3.8%: Berserking Warrior set bonus #2 (Set.WeaponCrit)
3.8%: Berserking Warrior set bonus #4 (Set.WeaponCrit)
9.1%: Berserking Warrior set bonus #5 (Set.WeaponCrit)
9%: Perfect Strike CP ability (CP.WeaponCrit)
10.5%: Dexterity 3 passive in Medium Armor line (Skill2.WeaponCrit)
10%: Twin Blade and Blunt 2 passive in Dual Wield line (Skill2.WeaponCrit)
4%: Pressure Points 2 passive in Assassination line (Skill2.WeaponCrit)
10%: Major Savagery buff (Buff.WeaponCrit)
6%: Minor Savagery buff (Buff.WeaponCrit)

Totals 83.8%.

Dr.NRG

The change is actually not that bad it enables you to run different kind of build that are rather old school like they used to be back in the days. That’s for pvp, for pve we already figured out in another thread that the dps with passives changes is actually quite good and on or if it even better than other races

Joxer61

Other than High Elf wo is going to be the new kid on the block for mag dps?

Edziu

@Masel
what if someone dont have access to jsut AY or relequen? as you wrote you dont need to wear them both at once...but still need to wear one of them and without summerset you cant use them (releq just locked in trial here, AY have no use without jewerly transmutation)

IlCanis_LupuslI

Eso I have to use Reliquien in pvp now awesome

validifyedneb18_ESO

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Eso I have to use Reliquien in pvp now awesome

Don't think I even need to comment on this one.

rafaelcsmaia

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Eso I have to use Reliquien in pvp now awesome

Wut

cpuScientist

Crit chance is actually more difficult to stack. We start with base 50 can get 20 from CP 10 minor 15 major. That's already 95 add in if you are Templar/Nightblade or not and you just broke 100.

Mag can reach that and so can Stam. Crit chance however, most mag builds do not easily reach 75. Will mean specific builds to take advantage of this change which may not be the BIS builds anyway so this is a mag Nerf. Taking Khajiit out of the running for bis mag race most likely.

This is a buff however for Nightblade gankers as they are guaranteed a crit when cloaked so this replaces the stealth damage they lost. So yay?