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Khajiit(4.3.2) Critical Hit Chance vs Khajiit(4.3.3) Critical Hit Damage Breakdown/Analysis

susmitds
susmitds
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Hey there,

I got spammed with messages for what the critical changes to Khajiit means. It is very similar to the Shadow vs Thief calculations I showed before. Getting straight to it -

Let X = Minimum Critical Hit Chance required for New Khajiit to at least equal Old Khajiit. For greater values, New Khajiit will become stronger than Old Khajiit.
Taking Current Critical Hit Damage = 1.50 (Base) + 0.1 (Class Passive) + 0.1 (Minor Force - 100% uptime) + 0.18 (CP) + 0.06 (Major Force - 40% uptime of 0.15) = 1.94
Critical Hit Damage with New Khajiit = 1.94+0.10=2.04


So, the equation below will give us the sweet spot, when New Khajiit will beat Old Khajiit.
plot.png
plot2.png

X = 97.5% Critical Hit Chance

So, we need 97.5% Critical Hit Chance or more for New Khajiit to be at least equal to Old Khajiit.

This percentage gets higher with the more Critical Hit Damage you have.

For E.g. With Shadow, X = 99.04%

Similarly, the lower your base Critical Hit Damage you will have, X be lesser will be.

For E.g, On non-crit DMG classes (not NBs and Templars) , X = 96.72%

All in all, this is a very significant nerf for PvE. To find out how much DPS loss this is, we need to insert the Critical Hit Chance of the build concerned we have in the formula in the place of X. The higher your Critical Hit Damage

Repurcussions of the Change :-
  • Khajiit overall nerfed for PvE compared to previous PTS patch. Magicka based Khajiit builds will be hit harder as Magicka meta builds have around 58% Critical Hit Chance. Khajiit Nightblades and Khajiit Templars will take the biggest nerfs.
  • Previously, Khajiit used to benefit highest from Warhorn. Now, Khajiit will benefit the least of all races from Warhorn.
  • Khajiit overall buffed for PvP. Remember the 10% Sneak Damage Khajiit and Wood Elves lost? Well, it is back, except it now applies to all crits. This is a buff to gankers.
  • This needs testing to confirm which I will do over the next few days, but calculation-wise 10% Critical Damage is significantly weaker than 254 Weapon Damage. Only above around 9600 Effective Weapon/Spell Damage(Max Resources + Base Spell/Weapon Damage) and 80% Critical Hit Chance, 10% Critical Damage equals 254 Damage. This can mean Khajiit will be significantly weaker in Damage output compared to Altmer/Dunmer/Orc. Note - As I said before I haven't tested this yet so I can't confirm.
Edited by susmitds on February 11, 2019 10:07PM
  • ChunkyCat
    ChunkyCat
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    Cliff Notes?
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    Sorry to post simple questions whose answers are surely alerady in your previous posts and calculations, but I'm missing something in the mechanics:
    • Isn't it the case that the benefit is simply the product of total crit chance and total crit additional-damage?
    • If so, isn't 10% crit damage better than 8% crit chance except in cases where total crit additional-damage is at least 1.25 x total crit chance?
    • How high does crit additional-damage get? There's 50% to start with, a CP contribution that's probably in the teens of %, Minor Force, Major Force (well under 100% uptime, unlike the others, which should all have near-perfect uptime), perhaps a class buff, perhaps a racial buff ... and what else?
    Edited by FrancisCrawford on February 11, 2019 8:51PM
  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
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    Didnt every race recieve a nerf?
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    @FrancisCrawford It is a buff for builds that have lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance. The thing is that no build in the game has lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance.

    Only reason that this can be even considered a buff for PvP is if the opponent has over 3000 Crit Resists and you have significantly high Critical Hit Chance. Only difference for Stealth Attacks and attacks after Shadowy Disguise. These attacks have 100% Critical Hit Chance, making this a buff.
  • Bigevilpeter
    Bigevilpeter
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    When did you have time to make all these calculations?

    Lets say average crit chance before patch was 70% and 78% for Khajit and average crit damage was 90

    So if you have 78 crit change 90 crit damage you get 148% damage average and if you have 70% crit chance and 100 crit damage you get 140% average damage so yeah new one is actually weaker unless new builds start to stack more crit chance
  • PapaWeeb
    PapaWeeb
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    Masel wrote: »
    It's a nerf, but not a significant one. I tested around a bit with it on stamina builds and it is not a lot, more like 0.5-1% in total damage output.

    I actually like that you can now use it on races that do lot have as much critical damage and get a higher benefit.

    If the DPS difference is truly that small, then it's nothing to worry about. Khajiits were doing really good DPS (given favourable crit RNG), losing 1% but gaining stronger heals isn't the end of the world
    PC EU
    Mostly AD

    Pretty fly (for a white guy)
  • nsmurfer
    nsmurfer
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    @Masel thing is why anyone ever choose Khajiit over Dunmer now?

    On live, almost no one uses Shadow(9% crit dmg) over Warrior/Apprentice(230 wep/spel dmg).

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/366347/shadow-vs-warrior-apprentice-whats-the-point-of-shadow

    This post shows that Warrior gives bigger Crits than Shadow.

    Wouldn't same happen here?

    0.5-1% DPS loss(300-600 DPS loss at the 60K range) on the stamina side will push Khajiit to one of the lowest of the races. It will be even higher in the magicka side. Dunmer will do everything better. Why bring Khajiit to raids, if Khajiit gets the lowest benefit of raid buffs?

    Even in PvP, this will be a net healing loss as most builds have around 1.65 crit healing modifier in CP. Using the formula here my calculations say, it is a nerf unless the build has over 50% crit chance. Also, against enemies with sub 3000 crit resist it is again a nerf.
    Edited by nsmurfer on February 11, 2019 9:14PM
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    susmitds wrote: »
    @FrancisCrawford It is a buff for builds that have lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance. The thing is that no build in the game has lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance.

    Only reason that this can be even considered a buff for PvP is if the opponent has over 3000 Crit Resists and you have significantly high Critical Hit Chance. Only difference for Stealth Attacks and attacks after Shadowy Disguise. These attacks have 100% Critical Hit Chance, making this a buff.

    @susmitd,

    But the number was increased from 8 to 10%, correct? So the breakeven would be when Critical Hit Damage is 5/4 of Critical Hit Chance, not when they're equal.
  • Minno
    Minno
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    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    Cliff Notes?

    Instead of buffing all other races to the point of them being OP, they nerfed kitty instead lol
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • RogueShark
    RogueShark
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    This is totally fine. I really wanted to go from a nice crit heal chance to stupid-negligible increased heal crits. Amazing.

    /s
    PC NA
    Lockpaw Khajiit Healsorc (AD)
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    @LiquidPony I copied the text from the Mundus calculation and forgot to change it there. Fixed now.

    The Formula Img is new and it didn't have the error though.

    Total DPS output = Crit-DMG + Non-Crit-DMG

    Formula basically plots new DPS output vs old DPS output
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    susmitds wrote: »
    @FrancisCrawford It is a buff for builds that have lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance. The thing is that no build in the game has lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance.

    Only reason that this can be even considered a buff for PvP is if the opponent has over 3000 Crit Resists and you have significantly high Critical Hit Chance. Only difference for Stealth Attacks and attacks after Shadowy Disguise. These attacks have 100% Critical Hit Chance, making this a buff.

    @susmitd,

    But the number was increased from 8 to 10%, correct? So the breakeven would be when Critical Hit Damage is 5/4 of Critical Hit Chance, not when they're equal.

    This is actually true.

    If you have 50% of both, 8% critical chance will net you less gain than 10% critical damage. In general it wont change the result, because you have a lot more base critical damage than base critical chance, but it's still a difference.

    PC EU - CP 1100+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD and Hobbytank - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Igneous Lizard Wizard - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Spongecroc Scalepants - Warden - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    susmitds wrote: »
    @LiquidPony I copied the text from the Mundus calculation and forgot to change it there. Fixed now.

    The Formula Img is new and it didn't have the error though.

    Total DPS output = Crit-DMG + Non-Crit-DMG

    Formula basically plots new DPS output vs old DPS output

    I'm using the old standard Asayre crit damage equations:

    f3137af20108710238b7b326a3158de8.png

    3b84f2fbc4cc8e342df418b7573c13d6.png
  • nsmurfer
    nsmurfer
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    @Masel

    Actually, I am not opposed to nerfs to keep power creep in check. But nerfing one race and leaving other the same, just the racial hierrarchy will change. Dunmer and Khajiit were virtually the same in DPS output and both fill the same role, Hybrid. You change one and leave the other constant, one automatically becomes better than the other.

    Now, Khajiit is a niche weaker version of dunmer.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    nsmurfer wrote: »
    @Masel

    Actually, I am not opposed to nerfs to keep power creep in check. But nerfing one race and leaving other the same, just the racial hierrarchy will change. Dunmer and Khajiit were virtually the same in DPS output and both fill the same role, Hybrid. You change one and leave the other constant, one automatically becomes better than the other.

    Now, Khajiit is a niche weaker version of dunmer.

    I don't think that is true. Wait for dps tests and then we can talk again. I dont have my sheet at hand but I think the change wasnt even noticable.
    PC EU - CP 1100+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD and Hobbytank - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Igneous Lizard Wizard - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Spongecroc Scalepants - Warden - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    Masel wrote: »
    susmitds wrote: »
    @FrancisCrawford It is a buff for builds that have lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance. The thing is that no build in the game has lesser Critical Hit Damage than Critical Hit Chance.

    Only reason that this can be even considered a buff for PvP is if the opponent has over 3000 Crit Resists and you have significantly high Critical Hit Chance. Only difference for Stealth Attacks and attacks after Shadowy Disguise. These attacks have 100% Critical Hit Chance, making this a buff.

    @susmitd,

    But the number was increased from 8 to 10%, correct? So the breakeven would be when Critical Hit Damage is 5/4 of Critical Hit Chance, not when they're equal.

    This is actually true.

    If you have 50% of both, 8% critical chance will net you less gain than 10% critical damage. In general it wont change the result, because you have a lot more base critical damage than base critical chance, but it's still a difference.

    Thanks.

    I'm confused by the assertion that 97.5% crit chance is the breakeven point, because I have trouble imagining how to get crit damage to 1.25 times that.

    It's totally obvious that the break even point is 40% or higher (because one starts with 50% crit damage no matter what). I have little doubt that a max-CP build will take crit damage over 60% just via CP, and further increases go on from there. So that gets breakeven crit chance over 50%. But I still can't imagine how it could be so extremely close to 100%, because I have no idea how crit damage could get into the 120%+ range.
    Edited by FrancisCrawford on February 11, 2019 9:39PM
  • Grandma
    Grandma
    i was so excited. <:(
  • Jaimeh
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    Thank you for the analysis. It makes sense that to benefit from added critical hit damage, you have to have a high critical chance to begin with, but it's good to have a concrete number to know just how much. For PvE, I think people will have to build around critical chance (with sets like Mechanical Acuity, etc.) to specifically take advantage of this.
    @stargold

    PC/NA CP810

    AD Nefelyn - Altmer Sorcerer - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Master Angler ǀ Hero of all the things (fine, some of the things)
    DC Bastiene - Breton Templar - Healer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Prefect
    AD Niobeh - Dunmer Nightblade - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Black Market Mogul ǀ Master Thief ǀ Silencer (but we don’t talk about that)
    AD Ashayam - Khajiit Sorcerer - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Sydhe Narjes - Redguard Nightblade - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Eva Saint Claire - Breton Warden - Healer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    EP Rruns-With-Scissors ­- Argonian Dragoknight - Tank ǀ He’s a good boy, OK Bront?
    EP Moiranni Deyr - Dunmer Dragonknight - Healer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Anur Imagua - Redguard Templar - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    AD Azoke Sen - Imperial Sorcerer - Tank ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Sàverin - Redguard Warden - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Zuwane Okoye - Redguard Dragonknight - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror

    PC/EU CP490

    AD Ariadne Nearil - Altmer Sorcerer - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    EP Máyim - Dunmer Nightblade - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror

    vSO HM · vAA HM · vHRC HM · vMOL · vHOF · vAS+1 · vDSA · vBRP

    It's not zerging if we are all solo and just happen to go to the same place independently xD
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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    nsmurfer wrote: »
    @Masel

    Actually, I am not opposed to nerfs to keep power creep in check. But nerfing one race and leaving other the same, just the racial hierrarchy will change. Dunmer and Khajiit were virtually the same in DPS output and both fill the same role, Hybrid. You change one and leave the other constant, one automatically becomes better than the other.

    Now, Khajiit is a niche weaker version of dunmer.

    I think, this is an overreaction though. It should still be fairly similar. It is statistically a wrong practice to act on assumptions. The tests will happen very soon, as soon me and my guildies get back home and we have everyone create chars.
  • Bladerunner1
    Bladerunner1
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    The correct answer to this

    plot.png

    Is 75.2%, not, 97%
  • susmitds
    susmitds
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  • Azyle1
    Azyle1
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    I mean I just kinda feel like this is a bummer if its really a nerf. I hope it isn't too bad.
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