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Maybe Altmer isn't bad as we thought....

  • ezio45
    ezio45
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    Ogou wrote: »
    Now there is irrefutable evidence that Spell Recharge is useless for a Stam OR Mag damage dealing Altmer - because as demonstrated in the metrics, and aforementioned video, it restores resources to the pool which currently does not need the help.

    I'm only stating the obvious at this point. All we can really do now is wait for ZOS to fix it.

    I'm pretty sure ZOS expected the change to work as it currently does. Not saying they won't change their mind though.

    Zos never changes there mind... Been here long enough to notice that... They really should start tho
  • Ogou
    Ogou
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    ezio45 wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Now there is irrefutable evidence that Spell Recharge is useless for a Stam OR Mag damage dealing Altmer - because as demonstrated in the metrics, and aforementioned video, it restores resources to the pool which currently does not need the help.

    I'm only stating the obvious at this point. All we can really do now is wait for ZOS to fix it.

    I'm pretty sure ZOS expected the change to work as it currently does. Not saying they won't change their mind though.

    Zos never changes there mind... Been here long enough to notice that... They really should start tho

    After what they did to the Khajiit in the latest PTS patch I'm not so sure about that anymore.
  • Ragnaroek93
    Ragnaroek93
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    For PvP the passive is probably better than before. The problem is just that Breton imo is just a bit too good and there's basically no reason to play Altmer or Dunmer over a Breton. The passive wasn't even that great when it restored magicka in the first place to be fair.
    Edited by Ragnaroek93 on February 12, 2019 1:46AM
  • Minno
    Minno
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    Xvorg wrote: »
    Tasear wrote: »
    Tasear wrote: »
    Jhalin wrote: »
    You don’t need to make a thread based on blatantly incorrect information when there’s four of five threads discussing this already

    I didn't see anything talking about this and I was wondering about the statement. There's no need to be aggressive.

    There are tonnes of threads talking about it, just under incorrect/hidden titles. Like such hits as "[There is almost no difference between Dunmer and Altmer]" or "[Can ZOS explain why Altmer is the lowest DPS]" and many more.

    So to ask my question again? Does Altmer return magicka most of the time, because the wording is tricking.

    No. I did think this may be the case first time I read it, but its talking about "maximum" so it will always be your offstat unless you have so much max offstat that buffs make you swap what your highest maximum is. I mean... I can potentially see some people trying to pile everything into damage as a meme to get the mag regen. lol.

    Notice it says "lowest" not "smallest". Maybe I'm wrong, but I tend to think it is a % based passive.

    Stam 10000/10000 = 100%
    Mag 20000/40000= 50%

    Then the passive should return magicka

    That's what it sounds to me lol. Silly pve players; testing is for kids lol
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • twing1_
    twing1_
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    ZOS should give spell recharge to Dunmer. These two races are too similar as they are.

    Altmer
    -2000 max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -stamina utility (via sustain)

    Dunmer
    -1875 max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -stamina utility (via max resources)

    Moving the spell recharge over to Dunmer's passives would at least be lore friendly... It would also help make their off-stat utility a little more viable. As of now, I fear both the stamina sustain on the altmer and the max stamina bonus on the dunmer on their own are too miniscule to make proper use out of... If they put them both on one class, however, it might actually make a noticeable difference.

    Altmer could get a small magicka related bonus to compensate, something that doesn't add to their damage or sustain but adds a bit of utility. Something like increased chance to apply status effects would suffice. This wouldn't alter the balance between races at all, as it would only provide a little more utility and leave their raw damage potential unaltered.

    more detailed analysis of this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457979/lack-of-racial-identity-between-altmer-and-dunmer#latest
    Edited by twing1_ on February 12, 2019 4:35AM
  • Minno
    Minno
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    twing1_ wrote: »
    ZOS should give spell recharge to Dunmer. These two races are too similar as they are.

    Altmer
    -2000 max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -stamina utility (via sustain)

    Dunmer
    -1875 max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -stamina utility (via max resources)

    Moving the spell recharge over to Dunmer's passives would at least be lore friendly... It would also help make their off-stat utility a little more viable. As of now, I fear both the stamina sustain on the altmer and the max stamina bonus on the dunmer on their own are too miniscule to make proper use out of... If they put them both on one class, however, it might actually make a noticeable difference.

    Altmer could get a small magicka related bonus to compensate, like increased chance to apply status effects or something. This wouldn't alter the balance between races at all, as it would only provide a little more utility and leave their raw damage potential unaltered.

    more detailed analysis of this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457979/lack-of-racial-identity-between-altmer-and-dunmer#latest

    Well high elves are fine, both stat and lore. Here's why:
    - based on other games, they boasted high intelligence. But that meant higher mag pools, not access to Regen. In ESO, this means access to both max mag AND spell DMG. No other race has this btw, aside from dark elf, and shouldn't be taken lightly.
    - they also get DMG mitigation thru channeling. While on paper, not as useful to some, the very act of focusing sounds like something a high elf would do. 5% DMG mit for Templars is nothing to dismiss; especially DD rolling sweeps in melee. Sorc casting dark deal, all heavy attacks (forgot about that one did you all lol), soul assault, etc. There's use for this passive on every build.
    - and finally they have this interesting mechanic that appears to siphon the cost of a class ability back into your Regen pool. Similar to Spell Absorbtion from Oblivion except you'll be adding off stat and it's entirely off casts instead of spells that hit you. A kinda mix of Misticism and Alteration magic.

    So then looking purely at stats:
    -2k max mag,
    - almost 300 SD,
    - 5% DMG mit while channeling
    - 600 lowest max stat returned while casting a class spell.

    That sounds unique, enticing and a race i would pick on many builds. Sadly I hate elves so i won't be picking them lol.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • twing1_
    twing1_
    ✭✭✭
    Minno wrote: »
    twing1_ wrote: »
    ZOS should give spell recharge to Dunmer. These two races are too similar as they are.

    Altmer
    -2000 max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -stamina utility (via sustain)

    Dunmer
    -1875 max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -stamina utility (via max resources)

    Moving the spell recharge over to Dunmer's passives would at least be lore friendly... It would also help make their off-stat utility a little more viable. As of now, I fear both the stamina sustain on the altmer and the max stamina bonus on the dunmer on their own are too miniscule to make proper use out of... If they put them both on one class, however, it might actually make a noticeable difference.

    Altmer could get a small magicka related bonus to compensate, like increased chance to apply status effects or something. This wouldn't alter the balance between races at all, as it would only provide a little more utility and leave their raw damage potential unaltered.

    more detailed analysis of this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457979/lack-of-racial-identity-between-altmer-and-dunmer#latest

    Well high elves are fine, both stat and lore. Here's why:
    - based on other games, they boasted high intelligence. But that meant higher mag pools, not access to Regen. In ESO, this means access to both max mag AND spell DMG. No other race has this btw, aside from dark elf, and shouldn't be taken lightly.
    - they also get DMG mitigation thru channeling. While on paper, not as useful to some, the very act of focusing sounds like something a high elf would do. 5% DMG mit for Templars is nothing to dismiss; especially DD rolling sweeps in melee. Sorc casting dark deal, all heavy attacks (forgot about that one did you all lol), soul assault, etc. There's use for this passive on every build.
    - and finally they have this interesting mechanic that appears to siphon the cost of a class ability back into your Regen pool. Similar to Spell Absorbtion from Oblivion except you'll be adding off stat and it's entirely off casts instead of spells that hit you. A kinda mix of Misticism and Alteration magic.

    So then looking purely at stats:
    -2k max mag,
    - almost 300 SD,
    - 5% DMG mit while channeling
    - 600 lowest max stat returned while casting a class spell.

    That sounds unique, enticing and a race i would pick on many builds. Sadly I hate elves so i won't be picking them lol.

    When you compare their stats to dark elves, though, they become a lot less unique.

    high elf
    -2k max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -more roll dodges/break free (stam sustain)
    -5% damage resist while chanelling

    dark elf
    -almost 2k max mag (1875)
    -258 spell damage
    -more roll dodges/break free (1875 max stam)
    -less fire damage


    These two races are separated by a total of 125 max magicka (the equivalent of ~12 spell damage) and their defensive bonuses, as the altmer's stamina sustain and the dunmer's added bonus to max stam ultimately both grant the same utility (there may be a slight difference in effectiveness between the two, but they each seem marginal at best).

    When you take into account the great amount of variation between other races, these two races almost appear to have been copy-pasted into each other's passives.

    As for the lore, altmer are considered the most powerful spellcasters: "The Altmer are the most strongly gifted in the arcane arts of all the races, and they are very resistant to diseases. However, they are also somewhat vulnerable to magicka, fire, frost, and shock, which makes them very weak against their strongest point - magic. They are among the longest living and most intelligent races of Tamriel, and they often become powerful magic users due to both their magical affinity and the many years they may devote to their studies."

    This is accurately depicted in their passives through the difference of 125 max magicka between altmer and the dunmer.

    Dunmer, conversely, are known for their superior athleticism in addition to their proficiency in spellcraft: "Their combination of powerful intellects with strong and agile physiques produce superior warriors and sorcerers.[2] On the battlefield, Dunmer are noted for their skill with a balanced integration of the sword, the bow and destruction magic."

    This, however, is not being reflected, as both the altmer and the dunmer possess very similar levels of athleticism (stamina utility) in their passives.

    Source:
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Altmer
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dunmer
    Edited by twing1_ on February 12, 2019 5:34AM
  • Minno
    Minno
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    twing1_ wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    twing1_ wrote: »
    ZOS should give spell recharge to Dunmer. These two races are too similar as they are.

    Altmer
    -2000 max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -stamina utility (via sustain)

    Dunmer
    -1875 max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -stamina utility (via max resources)

    Moving the spell recharge over to Dunmer's passives would at least be lore friendly... It would also help make their off-stat utility a little more viable. As of now, I fear both the stamina sustain on the altmer and the max stamina bonus on the dunmer on their own are too miniscule to make proper use out of... If they put them both on one class, however, it might actually make a noticeable difference.

    Altmer could get a small magicka related bonus to compensate, like increased chance to apply status effects or something. This wouldn't alter the balance between races at all, as it would only provide a little more utility and leave their raw damage potential unaltered.

    more detailed analysis of this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457979/lack-of-racial-identity-between-altmer-and-dunmer#latest

    Well high elves are fine, both stat and lore. Here's why:
    - based on other games, they boasted high intelligence. But that meant higher mag pools, not access to Regen. In ESO, this means access to both max mag AND spell DMG. No other race has this btw, aside from dark elf, and shouldn't be taken lightly.
    - they also get DMG mitigation thru channeling. While on paper, not as useful to some, the very act of focusing sounds like something a high elf would do. 5% DMG mit for Templars is nothing to dismiss; especially DD rolling sweeps in melee. Sorc casting dark deal, all heavy attacks (forgot about that one did you all lol), soul assault, etc. There's use for this passive on every build.
    - and finally they have this interesting mechanic that appears to siphon the cost of a class ability back into your Regen pool. Similar to Spell Absorbtion from Oblivion except you'll be adding off stat and it's entirely off casts instead of spells that hit you. A kinda mix of Misticism and Alteration magic.

    So then looking purely at stats:
    -2k max mag,
    - almost 300 SD,
    - 5% DMG mit while channeling
    - 600 lowest max stat returned while casting a class spell.

    That sounds unique, enticing and a race i would pick on many builds. Sadly I hate elves so i won't be picking them lol.

    When you compare their stats to dark elves, though, they become a lot less unique.

    high elf
    -2k max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -more roll dodges/break free (stam sustain)
    -5% damage resist while chanelling

    dark elf
    -almost 2k max mag (1875)
    -258 spell damage
    -more roll dodges/break free (1875 max stam)
    -less fire damage


    These two races are separated by a total of 125 max magicka (the equivalent of ~12 spell damage) and their defensive bonuses, as the altmer's stamina sustain and the dunmer's added bonus to max stam both grant the same utility (there may be a slight difference in effectiveness between the two, but they both seem marginal at best).

    When you take into account the great amount of variation between other races, these two races almost appear to have been copy-pasted into each other's passives.

    Those look like two completely different races. One boasts more hybrid, immunity to burning and fire resistance. The other lays claim to mag proficiency by having the ability to reduce DMG while channeling, pure mag stats and the ability to offset their casts by pulling in costs from class spells.

    I think everyone is just making noise based on 5 years of having access to things that were meta for too long or felt slapped together by devs that didn't care; the races on pts are ready to ship and I'm excited for the changes.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    Minno wrote: »
    twing1_ wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    twing1_ wrote: »
    ZOS should give spell recharge to Dunmer. These two races are too similar as they are.

    Altmer
    -2000 max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -stamina utility (via sustain)

    Dunmer
    -1875 max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -stamina utility (via max resources)

    Moving the spell recharge over to Dunmer's passives would at least be lore friendly... It would also help make their off-stat utility a little more viable. As of now, I fear both the stamina sustain on the altmer and the max stamina bonus on the dunmer on their own are too miniscule to make proper use out of... If they put them both on one class, however, it might actually make a noticeable difference.

    Altmer could get a small magicka related bonus to compensate, like increased chance to apply status effects or something. This wouldn't alter the balance between races at all, as it would only provide a little more utility and leave their raw damage potential unaltered.

    more detailed analysis of this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457979/lack-of-racial-identity-between-altmer-and-dunmer#latest

    Well high elves are fine, both stat and lore. Here's why:
    - based on other games, they boasted high intelligence. But that meant higher mag pools, not access to Regen. In ESO, this means access to both max mag AND spell DMG. No other race has this btw, aside from dark elf, and shouldn't be taken lightly.
    - they also get DMG mitigation thru channeling. While on paper, not as useful to some, the very act of focusing sounds like something a high elf would do. 5% DMG mit for Templars is nothing to dismiss; especially DD rolling sweeps in melee. Sorc casting dark deal, all heavy attacks (forgot about that one did you all lol), soul assault, etc. There's use for this passive on every build.
    - and finally they have this interesting mechanic that appears to siphon the cost of a class ability back into your Regen pool. Similar to Spell Absorbtion from Oblivion except you'll be adding off stat and it's entirely off casts instead of spells that hit you. A kinda mix of Misticism and Alteration magic.

    So then looking purely at stats:
    -2k max mag,
    - almost 300 SD,
    - 5% DMG mit while channeling
    - 600 lowest max stat returned while casting a class spell.

    That sounds unique, enticing and a race i would pick on many builds. Sadly I hate elves so i won't be picking them lol.

    When you compare their stats to dark elves, though, they become a lot less unique.

    high elf
    -2k max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -more roll dodges/break free (stam sustain)
    -5% damage resist while chanelling

    dark elf
    -almost 2k max mag (1875)
    -258 spell damage
    -more roll dodges/break free (1875 max stam)
    -less fire damage


    These two races are separated by a total of 125 max magicka (the equivalent of ~12 spell damage) and their defensive bonuses, as the altmer's stamina sustain and the dunmer's added bonus to max stam both grant the same utility (there may be a slight difference in effectiveness between the two, but they both seem marginal at best).

    When you take into account the great amount of variation between other races, these two races almost appear to have been copy-pasted into each other's passives.

    Those look like two completely different races. One boasts more hybrid, immunity to burning and fire resistance. The other lays claim to mag proficiency by having the ability to reduce DMG while channeling, pure mag stats and the ability to offset their casts by pulling in costs from class spells.

    I think everyone is just making noise based on 5 years of having access to things that were meta for too long or felt slapped together by devs that didn't care; the races on pts are ready to ship and I'm excited for the changes.

    Only one class has any channeled abilities. That passive doesn't give Altmer anything unique. It's one of the most useless passives in the game (if not the most useless).
  • twing1_
    twing1_
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    Minno wrote: »
    twing1_ wrote: »
    Minno wrote: »
    twing1_ wrote: »
    ZOS should give spell recharge to Dunmer. These two races are too similar as they are.

    Altmer
    -2000 max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -stamina utility (via sustain)

    Dunmer
    -1875 max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -stamina utility (via max resources)

    Moving the spell recharge over to Dunmer's passives would at least be lore friendly... It would also help make their off-stat utility a little more viable. As of now, I fear both the stamina sustain on the altmer and the max stamina bonus on the dunmer on their own are too miniscule to make proper use out of... If they put them both on one class, however, it might actually make a noticeable difference.

    Altmer could get a small magicka related bonus to compensate, like increased chance to apply status effects or something. This wouldn't alter the balance between races at all, as it would only provide a little more utility and leave their raw damage potential unaltered.

    more detailed analysis of this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457979/lack-of-racial-identity-between-altmer-and-dunmer#latest

    Well high elves are fine, both stat and lore. Here's why:
    - based on other games, they boasted high intelligence. But that meant higher mag pools, not access to Regen. In ESO, this means access to both max mag AND spell DMG. No other race has this btw, aside from dark elf, and shouldn't be taken lightly.
    - they also get DMG mitigation thru channeling. While on paper, not as useful to some, the very act of focusing sounds like something a high elf would do. 5% DMG mit for Templars is nothing to dismiss; especially DD rolling sweeps in melee. Sorc casting dark deal, all heavy attacks (forgot about that one did you all lol), soul assault, etc. There's use for this passive on every build.
    - and finally they have this interesting mechanic that appears to siphon the cost of a class ability back into your Regen pool. Similar to Spell Absorbtion from Oblivion except you'll be adding off stat and it's entirely off casts instead of spells that hit you. A kinda mix of Misticism and Alteration magic.

    So then looking purely at stats:
    -2k max mag,
    - almost 300 SD,
    - 5% DMG mit while channeling
    - 600 lowest max stat returned while casting a class spell.

    That sounds unique, enticing and a race i would pick on many builds. Sadly I hate elves so i won't be picking them lol.

    When you compare their stats to dark elves, though, they become a lot less unique.

    high elf
    -2k max mag
    -258 spell damage
    -more roll dodges/break free (stam sustain)
    -5% damage resist while chanelling

    dark elf
    -almost 2k max mag (1875)
    -258 spell damage
    -more roll dodges/break free (1875 max stam)
    -less fire damage


    These two races are separated by a total of 125 max magicka (the equivalent of ~12 spell damage) and their defensive bonuses, as the altmer's stamina sustain and the dunmer's added bonus to max stam both grant the same utility (there may be a slight difference in effectiveness between the two, but they both seem marginal at best).

    When you take into account the great amount of variation between other races, these two races almost appear to have been copy-pasted into each other's passives.

    Those look like two completely different races. One boasts more hybrid, immunity to burning and fire resistance. The other lays claim to mag proficiency by having the ability to reduce DMG while channeling, pure mag stats and the ability to offset their casts by pulling in costs from class spells.

    I think everyone is just making noise based on 5 years of having access to things that were meta for too long or felt slapped together by devs that didn't care; the races on pts are ready to ship and I'm excited for the changes.

    For me, this isn't a concern of what is meta and what isn't. I couldn't care less if I'm dealing .05% less DPS than the best race. For me, it's a problem of racial diversity. Before these patches, Dunmer and Altmer were noticeably different. They each had their own unique feel. People would play Dunmer for their bonus to fire damage, while people would play altmer for their bonus to magicka sustain. Dunmer was a raw damage, no sustain class and Altmer were less raw damage but a lot easier to sustain. There were tradeoffs between the two races.

    Now, it seems as though the only noticeable tradeoff (as the stamina utility of each race is very comparable and the 125 maximum magicka difference will MAYBE account for a difference in ~300 dps on a 6m parse) is that dunmer are immune to burning and altmer are not. They feel like the same race to me, but maybe that's just me.

    Now I'm not saying buff one or the other, and I'm not calling for nerfs either. They both seem to be in good places in the magicka hierarchy. I just want them to be a little more different from one another. I want there to be a reason for me to want to be one over the other and vice versa, because as of right now I feel they are both falling flat in the racial identity department.
    Edited by twing1_ on February 12, 2019 5:33AM
  • Kalle_Demos
    Kalle_Demos
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    The changes to both Altmer and Dunmer are boring and take away things players liked about them. Is this part of Zos' secret plants to get players to stop playing these popular and iconic races because none of this looks like the plans they told us?

    "If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn
  • IzzyStardust
    IzzyStardust
    ✭✭✭✭
    Dracane wrote: »
    Enough of this non-sense here

    A clear statement now: Spell recharge restores your lowest maximum ressource. Not which ressource is currently the lowest, % wise. When I have 40k max magicka and am currently at 30k magicka, I will still restore stamina, because my 10k max stamina is the lowest maximum ressource

    I have tested it and there is no doubt and no room for speculation. This passive is bad, stupid, foolish and lore breaking.

    ahh Dracane, always coming in with the hard facts.

    with n o Combat Metrics.
    Browart wrote: »
    If they isnt bad, answer on 1 question why should I choose altmer over breton on magicka builds? (we talking only about passives, not appearance)

    1. both have 2k magicka and on both cp will have affect
    2. altmer will get stamina 625 WHEN HE WILL USE CLASS ABILITY, when breton have just 100 magicka regen (altmer on live have 45)
    3. Breton have 7% magicka reduction, when altmer have 0
    4. Altmer have 258 spell dmg but breton with 7% have enough sustain to put berserk on back bar, altmer can do the same thing but he will lose much more sustain, breton will not.
    5. 5% reduction dmg when WE USING CHANNELING ABILITES from altmer (magplar in both scenario and pvp sorc so the rest classes have 0 beneftis from it) vs 2,3k spell resist and 4,6k when breton will get some element on self, it will proc in both scenario

    So why should I choose altmer? For 1% more xp?

    Yeah like Sorry BROS - no heals for you - I can slot Vigor tho! xD Hah!
  • IzzyStardust
    IzzyStardust
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    Tasear wrote: »
    Spell Recharge: The return for this passive will now restore your lowest maximum
    resource, rather than your highest. We also increased the value to 645 from 525.

    So was having a discussion and they were saying how 99% of the time Altmer was going to return magicka and people were looking at the passive at the wrong way. What do you guys say? If this is true then makes a lot more sense?

    Key is the bold.

    I don't know who started this stupid rumour, but stop please. Altmer doesn't really need any more 'help' in that way.
    Edited by IzzyStardust on February 12, 2019 7:54AM
  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
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    What comes as a surprise is Khajit. They changed the critical chance into critical damage. Don't know why they did this. People will panic and won't switch into Khajits and Elsewyr sales won't be promoted that much. Marketing department does some really weird things.

    As it seems they wanted the passive to be more useful in PvP while still remaining good in PvE. Can't find any other rational explanation.
    Khajit change prooves that they are capable to rework racials to be usable in both worlds (PvP and PvE). So do not hesitate, hurry up and tweak other racials which are one world-only as well.
  • ZOS_RikardD
    Greetings,

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