The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
• PC/Mac: NA megaserver for maintenance – April 25, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 2:00PM EDT (18:00 UTC)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
Why is Warhorn required?
-
IzzyStardust✭✭✭✭✭
✭"End-game" groups if you mean by trial score runs? They will run what kill mobs fast as it betters the score. Really that simple.
However, you can use non warhorn ults in plenty of non trial PvE content. For example My sorc tank uses negate in Vet MHK HM - it is in general far more useful than a warhorn. At the end burn? Sure, but otherwise the DPS far like me to just negate all the adds.
March is very similar. I also use negate during HM to lock down the wolves for the mass AoE. A warhorn isn't gonna change much as its isn't a DPS race its about survival.
Sometimes I slot barrier with newer DPS. Warhorn doesn't make bad DPS good it makes good DPS great. Extra crit doesn't really help when your teaching a player a dungeon and they are panicking trying to dance to AoE's messing up their rotation anyway.
So it all depends, at least to me.
I was just gonna say similar; on Tanking VMHK HM with lower dps I use(d) timestop on the wolf add spawn; to slow/stun them to let dps burn em.
Since I use balance and usually go 3 dps now anyway (but would bring a healer happily, just more dps wanna go and I can handle my own stuff); I’ll still with the cost increase be able to do that, but only as a one trick pony.
At times in that fight I took magma shell, because I need to stay alive more than we needed more crit.
Depends on the fight.0 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Protossyder wrote: »So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.
Thank you for the feedback guys
Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.
What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.
The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.
Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.
That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.
Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.
It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.
1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.
So, I never said the game isn't about your enjoyment. If you read closely, I said it isn't JUST about your enjoyment. You are not the only person in the instance, and the team does not revolve around you, nor are you the solo star of the show. It's a team effort, and every member of that team makes or breaks that run based on what they are bringing to the table.
In this game, tank is a support role, whether part of the trinity or not. You are supporting the team, just as the healers are. In a 12 person raid, the healers and tank essentially serve as the four pillars holding the dps up so they can function at max potential. Alkosh may be an admittedly odd set for a tank, on the surface, but the debuff makes it a valuable set, especially when you consider the tank is in the ideal place to activate the constant barrage of synergies being tossed at the boss.
As a healer, I run skills like Power of the Light (a stam ability) which does negligible dmg on my min/max mag build, but the debuff makes an overall difference for the team, so I slot it (if there is no stamplar in the group)and keep going. We slot Bone Shield, another stam based ability, which makes it difficult to keep up, and we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets, and stam abilities aren't optimal on us, but it somehow works, and I'm up to the challenge of making it work for the sake of my team's success (which also translates into my own success).
Also, Alkosh isn't the only base set tanks use. I don't know where you got that idea, but tanks are just as fluid with their sets as a healer, and have to adapt to the content constantly. You got some bad info, and now it's making you sour when you don't need to be.
But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.0 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Protossyder wrote: »So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.
Thank you for the feedback guys
Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.
What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.
The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.
Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.
That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.
Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.
It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.
1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.
So, I never said the game isn't about your enjoyment. If you read closely, I said it isn't JUST about your enjoyment. You are not the only person in the instance, and the team does not revolve around you, nor are you the solo star of the show. It's a team effort, and every member of that team makes or breaks that run based on what they are bringing to the table.
In this game, tank is a support role, whether part of the trinity or not. You are supporting the team, just as the healers are. In a 12 person raid, the healers and tank essentially serve as the four pillars holding the dps up so they can function at max potential. Alkosh may be an admittedly odd set for a tank, on the surface, but the debuff makes it a valuable set, especially when you consider the tank is in the ideal place to activate the constant barrage of synergies being tossed at the boss.
As a healer, I run skills like Power of the Light (a stam ability) which does negligible dmg on my min/max mag build, but the debuff makes an overall difference for the team, so I slot it (if there is no stamplar in the group)and keep going. We slot Bone Shield, another stam based ability, which makes it difficult to keep up, and we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets, and stam abilities aren't optimal on us, but it somehow works, and I'm up to the challenge of making it work for the sake of my team's success (which also translates into my own success).
Also, Alkosh isn't the only base set tanks use. I don't know where you got that idea, but tanks are just as fluid with their sets as a healer, and have to adapt to the content constantly. You got some bad info, and now it's making you sour when you don't need to be.
But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
As a healer, I enjoy the challenge
PC/Xbox NA Mindmender|Swashbuckler Supreme|Planes Breaker|Dawnbringer|Godslayer|Immortal Redeemer|Gryphon Heart|Tick-tock Tormentor|Dro-m'Athra Destroyer|Stormproof|Grand Overlord|Grand Mastercrafter|Master Grappler|Tamriel Hero5 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭True Tanks don't exist in ESO PvE, unlike PvP. In PvE, the tank is a buffing/debuffing support unit, not a traditional tank like other MMOs.
I come from other MMOs and now most tanks and healer are buff bots for the DPS. The thing is though some of those games are making it so that all player who enter content are buff bots and if you don't run as a buff bot you get kicked, that is the new MMO thing I have seen in other games.
I'm seeing it hear as well with tanks and healer and I'm sure if the DPS also did this we may see them also providing additional buffs beyond what healers and tanks are providing today.0 -
RogueShark✭✭✭✭✭
✭"ZeroXF wrote:But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
My enjoyment comes from my own role. I'm going to wear what's needed for the group and content because it's my job to do everything I can to make the run go its best. Just like it's the tank's job... and, shockingly, the dps's. Dps do technically HAVE to wear certain sets, in the same sense tanks and healers do. People don't farm AY or spell strat because they're "okay" sets... dps have metas and builds and abilities that they are expected to use too, because they are expected to pull certain numbers.
Dps have expectations to meet same as tanks and healers.
If you don't enjoy how tanking functions in the game, then dps.PC NA
Will heal DPS for memes.3 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Protossyder wrote: »So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.
Thank you for the feedback guys
Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.
What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.
The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.
Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.
That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.
Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.
It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.
1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.
So, I never said the game isn't about your enjoyment. If you read closely, I said it isn't JUST about your enjoyment. You are not the only person in the instance, and the team does not revolve around you, nor are you the solo star of the show. It's a team effort, and every member of that team makes or breaks that run based on what they are bringing to the table.
In this game, tank is a support role, whether part of the trinity or not. You are supporting the team, just as the healers are. In a 12 person raid, the healers and tank essentially serve as the four pillars holding the dps up so they can function at max potential. Alkosh may be an admittedly odd set for a tank, on the surface, but the debuff makes it a valuable set, especially when you consider the tank is in the ideal place to activate the constant barrage of synergies being tossed at the boss.
As a healer, I run skills like Power of the Light (a stam ability) which does negligible dmg on my min/max mag build, but the debuff makes an overall difference for the team, so I slot it (if there is no stamplar in the group)and keep going. We slot Bone Shield, another stam based ability, which makes it difficult to keep up, and we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets, and stam abilities aren't optimal on us, but it somehow works, and I'm up to the challenge of making it work for the sake of my team's success (which also translates into my own success).
Also, Alkosh isn't the only base set tanks use. I don't know where you got that idea, but tanks are just as fluid with their sets as a healer, and have to adapt to the content constantly. You got some bad info, and now it's making you sour when you don't need to be.
But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
As a healer, I enjoy the challenge
You must love the dungeons with constant 1-shots then. Really "challenging" for the healers.0 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭RogueShark wrote: »"ZeroXF wrote:But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
My enjoyment comes from my own role. I'm going to wear what's needed for the group and content because it's my job to do everything I can to make the run go its best. Just like it's the tank's job... and, shockingly, the dps's. Dps do technically HAVE to wear certain sets, in the same sense tanks and healers do. People don't farm AY or spell strat because they're "okay" sets... dps have metas and builds and abilities that they are expected to use too, because they are expected to pull certain numbers.
Dps have expectations to meet same as tanks and healers.
If you don't enjoy how tanking functions in the game, then dps.
And still all their sets are boosting their performance and not someone else's. So what you just did was draw a false equivalence.0 -
RavenSworn✭✭✭✭✭Protossyder wrote: »So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.
Thank you for the feedback guys
Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.
What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.
The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.
Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.
That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.
Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you). Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.
It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.
DPS dont do much towards the team effort with that logic though. the problem is that there are sets that helps with group utility but the most optimal ones are the ones that help with dps numbers. Thats the issue. Its one thing to have a team mentality but when 2 out of the 3 roles are there only for that 1 role, that sucks the life out of doing those roles. Ive yet to see a group that has a dps dishing out Veil of Blades / Bolstering Darkness or Negate Magic. (note that if you already are able to dish out 50-60k dps, having one ultimate that is not damage based wont bring it down to 20-30k yeah?)
There were times when it was actually good to have the magdps do elemental drain since its their primary weapon and sunderflame / nmg was good for stamdps so that this helps the overall numbers. But those days are long gone.Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.
Of Wolf and Raven
Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!1 -
Oakmontowls_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭RavenSworn wrote: »Protossyder wrote: »So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.
Thank you for the feedback guys
Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.
What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.
The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.
Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.
That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.
Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you). Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.
It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.
DPS dont do much towards the team effort with that logic though. the problem is that there are sets that helps with group utility but the most optimal ones are the ones that help with dps numbers. Thats the issue. Its one thing to have a team mentality but when 2 out of the 3 roles are there only for that 1 role, that sucks the life out of doing those roles. Ive yet to see a group that has a dps dishing out Veil of Blades / Bolstering Darkness or Negate Magic. (note that if you already are able to dish out 50-60k dps, having one ultimate that is not damage based wont bring it down to 20-30k yeah?)
There were times when it was actually good to have the magdps do elemental drain since its their primary weapon and sunderflame / nmg was good for stamdps so that this helps the overall numbers. But those days are long gone.
If those ults were needed then they would use them. And they are used in places that require them. For example negating gargoyles in HRC.1 -
Grianasteri✭✭✭✭✭
✭Can someone please explain why it is that Warhorn is needed by every single tank?
I understand what it does, I just do not understand why the whole end-game is based around an ultimate.
Where is the build diversification for tanks if they always have to use this? To me, it seems like Warhorn does not fit the goals ZOS is striving for, especially with the race changes.
Are there even any end-game groups that do not require the tank to use this? It seems very constricting and limiting, because every other option the tank could use as an ultimate is a huge dps loss for the group.
Maybe this has been answered before?
Thank you
Yes I find this frustrating as well. It is not right that there is one ultimate that is so overwhelmingly powerful that it excludes all others. There should be more variety available.
That or just nerf Warhorn so its not automatically needed for every trial group etc.1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RogueShark wrote: »"ZeroXF wrote:But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
My enjoyment comes from my own role. I'm going to wear what's needed for the group and content because it's my job to do everything I can to make the run go its best. Just like it's the tank's job... and, shockingly, the dps's. Dps do technically HAVE to wear certain sets, in the same sense tanks and healers do. People don't farm AY or spell strat because they're "okay" sets... dps have metas and builds and abilities that they are expected to use too, because they are expected to pull certain numbers.
Dps have expectations to meet same as tanks and healers.
If you don't enjoy how tanking functions in the game, then dps.
And still all their sets are boosting their performance and not someone else's. So what you just did was draw a false equivalence.
Well tank is, by definition, a support role. Tank's performance is measured by how good he's helping the team. So... doing what is needed for the group is the tank's duty and raison d'etre, there's no way around it. Selfish tank is an oxymoron. So... yes, if there's an urge to go selfish, then damage. ^^0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »RogueShark wrote: »"ZeroXF wrote:But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
My enjoyment comes from my own role. I'm going to wear what's needed for the group and content because it's my job to do everything I can to make the run go its best. Just like it's the tank's job... and, shockingly, the dps's. Dps do technically HAVE to wear certain sets, in the same sense tanks and healers do. People don't farm AY or spell strat because they're "okay" sets... dps have metas and builds and abilities that they are expected to use too, because they are expected to pull certain numbers.
Dps have expectations to meet same as tanks and healers.
If you don't enjoy how tanking functions in the game, then dps.
And still all their sets are boosting their performance and not someone else's. So what you just did was draw a false equivalence.
Well tank is, by definition, a support role. Tank's performance is measured by how good he's helping the team. So... doing what is needed for the group is the tank's duty and raison d'etre, there's no way around it. Selfish tank is an oxymoron. So...yes, if there's an urge to go selfish, then damage. ^^
The funny thing is I think we agree on the bold, just not why.1 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »RogueShark wrote: »"ZeroXF wrote:But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
My enjoyment comes from my own role. I'm going to wear what's needed for the group and content because it's my job to do everything I can to make the run go its best. Just like it's the tank's job... and, shockingly, the dps's. Dps do technically HAVE to wear certain sets, in the same sense tanks and healers do. People don't farm AY or spell strat because they're "okay" sets... dps have metas and builds and abilities that they are expected to use too, because they are expected to pull certain numbers.
Dps have expectations to meet same as tanks and healers.
If you don't enjoy how tanking functions in the game, then dps.
And still all their sets are boosting their performance and not someone else's. So what you just did was draw a false equivalence.
Well tank is, by definition, a support role. Tank's performance is measured by how good he's helping the team. So... doing what is needed for the group is the tank's duty and raison d'etre, there's no way around it. Selfish tank is an oxymoron. So... yes, if there's an urge to go selfish, then damage. ^^
The support thing is true.
However if you compare a vTrial group to let's say an American Football team, ESO's tank is the closest thing to a quarterback :
- Only one (main) tank in the team
- Most of the time, if he fails, the team fails
People worrying about "only working towards others interests" just shows that tank's contribution is harder to measure, not that it is inferior to another role's contribution.
I still think part of this thread really is about "tank vs better tank" and not "tank vs DPS"Aznox
PC EU
Khajiit Orc Bosmer Stamina Sorcerer and Werewolf Stage 3 Vampire
I live in Battlegrounds
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CP1500+ club2 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RavenSworn wrote: »Protossyder wrote: »So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.
Thank you for the feedback guys
Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.
What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.
The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.
Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.
That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.
Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you). Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.
It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.
DPS dont do much towards the team effort with that logic though. the problem is that there are sets that helps with group utility but the most optimal ones are the ones that help with dps numbers. Thats the issue. Its one thing to have a team mentality but when 2 out of the 3 roles are there only for that 1 role, that sucks the life out of doing those roles. Ive yet to see a group that has a dps dishing out Veil of Blades / Bolstering Darkness or Negate Magic. (note that if you already are able to dish out 50-60k dps, having one ultimate that is not damage based wont bring it down to 20-30k yeah?)
There were times when it was actually good to have the magdps do elemental drain since its their primary weapon and sunderflame / nmg was good for stamdps so that this helps the overall numbers. But those days are long gone.
This is an incorrect assumption. When I'm not healing (which is the majority of the time), I'm running my 40k+ dps through content, and this requires quite a lot from me actually. I spend hours parsing to make sure I've got my rotation nice and tight and keeping my numbers as high as possible (for me) so the support team doesn't get stretched thin trying to keep our glass cannon behinds alive any longer than they need to. Speed, accuracy, and consistency is ALWAYS in a dps's thoughts while also making sure (hopefully) to avoid damaging mechanics, which also helps the support roles who depend on live dps to finish the fight. A DPS also has to be mindful to stay in buffing and healing range so the healer doesn't have to go chasing them around instead of methodically healing/buffing the group.
Yes, I know, this is not always the case, but in a good, well-trained group, this is how things run. On top of all of this, a dps must ALWAYS be refining their stats, CP, and gear so that they are pulling the best possible numbers during a fight. They are constantly shelling out gold and resources to swap gold glyphs and skill morphs every raid, and for potions used during parsing (which is a LOT). I get the DDs can often be frustrating and sometimes like to strut around like roosters before during and after the raid, telling everyone who will listen how amazingly high their numbers are, but these are just the obnoxiously loud minority and not the overwhelming majority of talented and focused players. Try actually playing as another class before you judge them all and make the assumption that their jobs are unimportant or not requiring any hard work. It is 100% not true.Edited by p00tx on February 8, 2019 8:29PMPC/Xbox NA Mindmender|Swashbuckler Supreme|Planes Breaker|Dawnbringer|Godslayer|Immortal Redeemer|Gryphon Heart|Tick-tock Tormentor|Dro-m'Athra Destroyer|Stormproof|Grand Overlord|Grand Mastercrafter|Master Grappler|Tamriel Hero0 -
Shantu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I run a Templar tank, so I'm healing and buffing the group, de-buffing the boss, holding aggro, and staying alive. Like a tank running Ebon, running Warhorn is just a no-brainer. It's about what you can contribute to the group so it can succeed. Besides, when you're in the last phase of burning down that vet boss, the sound of a Warhorn is just cool. 1 -
IzzyStardust✭✭✭✭✭
✭Protossyder wrote: »So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.
Thank you for the feedback guys
Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.
What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.
The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.
Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.
That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.
Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.
It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.
1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.
So, I never said the game isn't about your enjoyment. If you read closely, I said it isn't JUST about your enjoyment. You are not the only person in the instance, and the team does not revolve around you, nor are you the solo star of the show. It's a team effort, and every member of that team makes or breaks that run based on what they are bringing to the table.
In this game, tank is a support role, whether part of the trinity or not. You are supporting the team, just as the healers are. In a 12 person raid, the healers and tank essentially serve as the four pillars holding the dps up so they can function at max potential. Alkosh may be an admittedly odd set for a tank, on the surface, but the debuff makes it a valuable set, especially when you consider the tank is in the ideal place to activate the constant barrage of synergies being tossed at the boss.
As a healer, I run skills like Power of the Light (a stam ability) which does negligible dmg on my min/max mag build, but the debuff makes an overall difference for the team, so I slot it (if there is no stamplar in the group)and keep going. We slot Bone Shield, another stam based ability, which makes it difficult to keep up, and we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets, and stam abilities aren't optimal on us, but it somehow works, and I'm up to the challenge of making it work for the sake of my team's success (which also translates into my own success).
Also, Alkosh isn't the only base set tanks use. I don't know where you got that idea, but tanks are just as fluid with their sets as a healer, and have to adapt to the content constantly. You got some bad info, and now it's making you sour when you don't need to be.
But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
Um no. DDs build to do Their Job which is High As Possible DPS.
So we do our jobs to facilitate that and protect them where need be; and to be real, in top tier groups excepting certain circumstances - the buffs and debuffs are far more necessary than the heals.1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭John_Falstaff wrote: »RogueShark wrote: »"ZeroXF wrote:But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
My enjoyment comes from my own role. I'm going to wear what's needed for the group and content because it's my job to do everything I can to make the run go its best. Just like it's the tank's job... and, shockingly, the dps's. Dps do technically HAVE to wear certain sets, in the same sense tanks and healers do. People don't farm AY or spell strat because they're "okay" sets... dps have metas and builds and abilities that they are expected to use too, because they are expected to pull certain numbers.
Dps have expectations to meet same as tanks and healers.
If you don't enjoy how tanking functions in the game, then dps.
And still all their sets are boosting their performance and not someone else's. So what you just did was draw a false equivalence.
Well tank is, by definition, a support role. Tank's performance is measured by how good he's helping the team. So... doing what is needed for the group is the tank's duty and raison d'etre, there's no way around it. Selfish tank is an oxymoron. So... yes, if there's an urge to go selfish, then damage. ^^
It literally isn't. Tank is by definition a core role of the traditional MMO trinity. If you want to know what support is, go play Rift for a while.
And yeah, a selfish tank is an oxymoron, so whatever you call "selfish" isn't selfish at all, it's helping the group by keeping them safe from the big hits.IzzyStardust wrote: »Protossyder wrote: »So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.
Thank you for the feedback guys
Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.
What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.
The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.
Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.
That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.
Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.
It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.
1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.
So, I never said the game isn't about your enjoyment. If you read closely, I said it isn't JUST about your enjoyment. You are not the only person in the instance, and the team does not revolve around you, nor are you the solo star of the show. It's a team effort, and every member of that team makes or breaks that run based on what they are bringing to the table.
In this game, tank is a support role, whether part of the trinity or not. You are supporting the team, just as the healers are. In a 12 person raid, the healers and tank essentially serve as the four pillars holding the dps up so they can function at max potential. Alkosh may be an admittedly odd set for a tank, on the surface, but the debuff makes it a valuable set, especially when you consider the tank is in the ideal place to activate the constant barrage of synergies being tossed at the boss.
As a healer, I run skills like Power of the Light (a stam ability) which does negligible dmg on my min/max mag build, but the debuff makes an overall difference for the team, so I slot it (if there is no stamplar in the group)and keep going. We slot Bone Shield, another stam based ability, which makes it difficult to keep up, and we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets, and stam abilities aren't optimal on us, but it somehow works, and I'm up to the challenge of making it work for the sake of my team's success (which also translates into my own success).
Also, Alkosh isn't the only base set tanks use. I don't know where you got that idea, but tanks are just as fluid with their sets as a healer, and have to adapt to the content constantly. You got some bad info, and now it's making you sour when you don't need to be.
But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
Um no. DDs build to do Their Job which is High As Possible DPS.
So we do our jobs to facilitate that and protect them where need be; and to be real, in top tier groups excepting certain circumstances - the buffs and debuffs are far more necessary than the heals.
Why can't I build to do MY job as well as possible? Why do people in ESO expect me to make builds in such a way that the DDs can do their jobs better instead?
It's bad design, that's what it is.0 -
Zaryc✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »RogueShark wrote: »"ZeroXF wrote:But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
My enjoyment comes from my own role. I'm going to wear what's needed for the group and content because it's my job to do everything I can to make the run go its best. Just like it's the tank's job... and, shockingly, the dps's. Dps do technically HAVE to wear certain sets, in the same sense tanks and healers do. People don't farm AY or spell strat because they're "okay" sets... dps have metas and builds and abilities that they are expected to use too, because they are expected to pull certain numbers.
Dps have expectations to meet same as tanks and healers.
If you don't enjoy how tanking functions in the game, then dps.
And still all their sets are boosting their performance and not someone else's. So what you just did was draw a false equivalence.
Well tank is, by definition, a support role. Tank's performance is measured by how good he's helping the team. So... doing what is needed for the group is the tank's duty and raison d'etre, there's no way around it. Selfish tank is an oxymoron. So... yes, if there's an urge to go selfish, then damage. ^^
It literally isn't. Tank is by definition a core role of the traditional MMO trinity. If you want to know what support is, go play Rift for a while.
And yeah, a selfish tank is an oxymoron, so whatever you call "selfish" isn't selfish at all, it's helping the group by keeping them safe from the big hits.IzzyStardust wrote: »Protossyder wrote: »So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.
Thank you for the feedback guys
Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.
What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.
The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.
Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.
That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.
Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.
It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.
1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.
So, I never said the game isn't about your enjoyment. If you read closely, I said it isn't JUST about your enjoyment. You are not the only person in the instance, and the team does not revolve around you, nor are you the solo star of the show. It's a team effort, and every member of that team makes or breaks that run based on what they are bringing to the table.
In this game, tank is a support role, whether part of the trinity or not. You are supporting the team, just as the healers are. In a 12 person raid, the healers and tank essentially serve as the four pillars holding the dps up so they can function at max potential. Alkosh may be an admittedly odd set for a tank, on the surface, but the debuff makes it a valuable set, especially when you consider the tank is in the ideal place to activate the constant barrage of synergies being tossed at the boss.
As a healer, I run skills like Power of the Light (a stam ability) which does negligible dmg on my min/max mag build, but the debuff makes an overall difference for the team, so I slot it (if there is no stamplar in the group)and keep going. We slot Bone Shield, another stam based ability, which makes it difficult to keep up, and we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets, and stam abilities aren't optimal on us, but it somehow works, and I'm up to the challenge of making it work for the sake of my team's success (which also translates into my own success).
Also, Alkosh isn't the only base set tanks use. I don't know where you got that idea, but tanks are just as fluid with their sets as a healer, and have to adapt to the content constantly. You got some bad info, and now it's making you sour when you don't need to be.
But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
Um no. DDs build to do Their Job which is High As Possible DPS.
So we do our jobs to facilitate that and protect them where need be; and to be real, in top tier groups excepting certain circumstances - the buffs and debuffs are far more necessary than the heals.
Why can't I build to do MY job as well as possible? Why do people in ESO expect me to make builds in such a way that the DDs can do their jobs better instead?
It's bad design, that's what it is.
Because good tanks can do their job as good as possible AND support their group.
Tanking without supporting would be pretty boring in ESO. Taunt and press right mouse button...sounds funny.Edited by Zaryc on February 9, 2019 12:11PM1 -
Ysbriel✭✭✭✭✭Can someone please explain why it is that Warhorn is needed by every single tank?
I understand what it does, I just do not understand why the whole end-game is based around an ultimate.
Where is the build diversification for tanks if they always have to use this? To me, it seems like Warhorn does not fit the goals ZOS is striving for, especially with the race changes.
Are there even any end-game groups that do not require the tank to use this? It seems very constricting and limiting, because every other option the tank could use as an ultimate is a huge dps loss for the group.
Maybe this has been answered before?
Thank you
I tank and i don’t use warhorn, honestly i have found reviving barrier to be more useful on my daily dungeon/trial pug runs. Why? not all healers use AoE HoTs cause everybody has a different understanding on how to heal, not everybody who got in the trial/dungeon can really take a few smacks and it can provide a good save when something goes wrong in the run.0 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭John_Falstaff wrote: »RogueShark wrote: »"ZeroXF wrote:But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
My enjoyment comes from my own role. I'm going to wear what's needed for the group and content because it's my job to do everything I can to make the run go its best. Just like it's the tank's job... and, shockingly, the dps's. Dps do technically HAVE to wear certain sets, in the same sense tanks and healers do. People don't farm AY or spell strat because they're "okay" sets... dps have metas and builds and abilities that they are expected to use too, because they are expected to pull certain numbers.
Dps have expectations to meet same as tanks and healers.
If you don't enjoy how tanking functions in the game, then dps.
And still all their sets are boosting their performance and not someone else's. So what you just did was draw a false equivalence.
Well tank is, by definition, a support role. Tank's performance is measured by how good he's helping the team. So... doing what is needed for the group is the tank's duty and raison d'etre, there's no way around it. Selfish tank is an oxymoron. So... yes, if there's an urge to go selfish, then damage. ^^
It literally isn't. Tank is by definition a core role of the traditional MMO trinity. If you want to know what support is, go play Rift for a while.
And yeah, a selfish tank is an oxymoron, so whatever you call "selfish" isn't selfish at all, it's helping the group by keeping them safe from the big hits.IzzyStardust wrote: »Protossyder wrote: »So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.
Thank you for the feedback guys
Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.
What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.
The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.
Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.
That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.
Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.
It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.
1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.
So, I never said the game isn't about your enjoyment. If you read closely, I said it isn't JUST about your enjoyment. You are not the only person in the instance, and the team does not revolve around you, nor are you the solo star of the show. It's a team effort, and every member of that team makes or breaks that run based on what they are bringing to the table.
In this game, tank is a support role, whether part of the trinity or not. You are supporting the team, just as the healers are. In a 12 person raid, the healers and tank essentially serve as the four pillars holding the dps up so they can function at max potential. Alkosh may be an admittedly odd set for a tank, on the surface, but the debuff makes it a valuable set, especially when you consider the tank is in the ideal place to activate the constant barrage of synergies being tossed at the boss.
As a healer, I run skills like Power of the Light (a stam ability) which does negligible dmg on my min/max mag build, but the debuff makes an overall difference for the team, so I slot it (if there is no stamplar in the group)and keep going. We slot Bone Shield, another stam based ability, which makes it difficult to keep up, and we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets, and stam abilities aren't optimal on us, but it somehow works, and I'm up to the challenge of making it work for the sake of my team's success (which also translates into my own success).
Also, Alkosh isn't the only base set tanks use. I don't know where you got that idea, but tanks are just as fluid with their sets as a healer, and have to adapt to the content constantly. You got some bad info, and now it's making you sour when you don't need to be.
But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
Um no. DDs build to do Their Job which is High As Possible DPS.
So we do our jobs to facilitate that and protect them where need be; and to be real, in top tier groups excepting certain circumstances - the buffs and debuffs are far more necessary than the heals.
Why can't I build to do MY job as well as possible? Why do people in ESO expect me to make builds in such a way that the DDs can do their jobs better instead?
It's bad design, that's what it is.
Because good tanks can do their job as good as possible AND support their group.
Tanking without supporting would be pretty boring in ESO. Taunt and press right mouse button...sounds funny.
If you think that that's all that tanks do, you obviously haven't tanked in ESO.
And don't try to sell me the crap that wearing Ebon or Alkosh makes tanking any more "fun". You do literally nothing to use Ebon, just equip it. And with Alkosh you press X every 10 seconds... something you'd do anyways. It's not fun, it's just annoying that I can't choose different gear (or skills) without hearing from entitled DDs that I'm "selfish".
All the gear and skills that would make tanking more fun are prohibited in trials, and you dare tell me that it's "fun" to "support" the group by doing nothing but buff their DPS. I'd like to use Werewolf Hide to plant trees every 10 seconds instead of being dependent on someone putting down a synergy for me to use on Alkosh and seeing literally no effect from doing so. And on the NB I want to use Hunt Leader so that I don't run out of stam right away if the healer didn't throw shards, or DDs are (so selflessly) taking all of them. Or use Automated Defense with Radial Sweep on my Templar with some ulti generating set to have Major Aegis up near 100% of the time.
But nope, no fun is permitted, and you bull*** vendors try to tell me that Ebon+Alkosh makes tanking "fun". It doesn't. It prohibits the use of fun setups.0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tanks and Healers are not support roles by definition. They are core roles. You have cores and you have supports. Tank/Healer/DD are core roles. Buffers, debuffers, controllers, off-healers, off-tanks are support roles.
Because ESO has such a small cap on PVE raid size (lol 12 players, I remember raiding Plane of Hate with 90 players), it really doesn't have room for support roles, so their roles get absorbed into the tank and healer roles.0331
06021 -
paulychan✭✭✭✭These days you need to run jorvulds, or whatever that set is that extends buffs, and akosh. Also survive tanking in that set upEdited by paulychan on February 9, 2019 7:46PM0
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Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »RogueShark wrote: »"ZeroXF wrote:But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
My enjoyment comes from my own role. I'm going to wear what's needed for the group and content because it's my job to do everything I can to make the run go its best. Just like it's the tank's job... and, shockingly, the dps's. Dps do technically HAVE to wear certain sets, in the same sense tanks and healers do. People don't farm AY or spell strat because they're "okay" sets... dps have metas and builds and abilities that they are expected to use too, because they are expected to pull certain numbers.
Dps have expectations to meet same as tanks and healers.
If you don't enjoy how tanking functions in the game, then dps.
And still all their sets are boosting their performance and not someone else's. So what you just did was draw a false equivalence.
Well tank is, by definition, a support role. Tank's performance is measured by how good he's helping the team. So... doing what is needed for the group is the tank's duty and raison d'etre, there's no way around it. Selfish tank is an oxymoron. So... yes, if there's an urge to go selfish, then damage. ^^
It literally isn't. Tank is by definition a core role of the traditional MMO trinity. If you want to know what support is, go play Rift for a while.
And yeah, a selfish tank is an oxymoron, so whatever you call "selfish" isn't selfish at all, it's helping the group by keeping them safe from the big hits.IzzyStardust wrote: »Protossyder wrote: »So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.
Thank you for the feedback guys
Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.
What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.
The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.
Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.
That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.
Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.
It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.
1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.
So, I never said the game isn't about your enjoyment. If you read closely, I said it isn't JUST about your enjoyment. You are not the only person in the instance, and the team does not revolve around you, nor are you the solo star of the show. It's a team effort, and every member of that team makes or breaks that run based on what they are bringing to the table.
In this game, tank is a support role, whether part of the trinity or not. You are supporting the team, just as the healers are. In a 12 person raid, the healers and tank essentially serve as the four pillars holding the dps up so they can function at max potential. Alkosh may be an admittedly odd set for a tank, on the surface, but the debuff makes it a valuable set, especially when you consider the tank is in the ideal place to activate the constant barrage of synergies being tossed at the boss.
As a healer, I run skills like Power of the Light (a stam ability) which does negligible dmg on my min/max mag build, but the debuff makes an overall difference for the team, so I slot it (if there is no stamplar in the group)and keep going. We slot Bone Shield, another stam based ability, which makes it difficult to keep up, and we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets, and stam abilities aren't optimal on us, but it somehow works, and I'm up to the challenge of making it work for the sake of my team's success (which also translates into my own success).
Also, Alkosh isn't the only base set tanks use. I don't know where you got that idea, but tanks are just as fluid with their sets as a healer, and have to adapt to the content constantly. You got some bad info, and now it's making you sour when you don't need to be.
But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
Um no. DDs build to do Their Job which is High As Possible DPS.
So we do our jobs to facilitate that and protect them where need be; and to be real, in top tier groups excepting certain circumstances - the buffs and debuffs are far more necessary than the heals.
Why can't I build to do MY job as well as possible? Why do people in ESO expect me to make builds in such a way that the DDs can do their jobs better instead?
It's bad design, that's what it is.
Because good tanks can do their job as good as possible AND support their group.
Tanking without supporting would be pretty boring in ESO. Taunt and press right mouse button...sounds funny.
If you think that that's all that tanks do, you obviously haven't tanked in ESO.
And don't try to sell me the crap that wearing Ebon or Alkosh makes tanking any more "fun". You do literally nothing to use Ebon, just equip it. And with Alkosh you press X every 10 seconds... something you'd do anyways. It's not fun, it's just annoying that I can't choose different gear (or skills) without hearing from entitled DDs that I'm "selfish".
All the gear and skills that would make tanking more fun are prohibited in trials, and you dare tell me that it's "fun" to "support" the group by doing nothing but buff their DPS. I'd like to use Werewolf Hide to plant trees every 10 seconds instead of being dependent on someone putting down a synergy for me to use on Alkosh and seeing literally no effect from doing so. And on the NB I want to use Hunt Leader so that I don't run out of stam right away if the healer didn't throw shards, or DDs are (so selflessly) taking all of them. Or use Automated Defense with Radial Sweep on my Templar with some ulti generating set to have Major Aegis up near 100% of the time.
But nope, no fun is permitted, and you bull*** vendors try to tell me that Ebon+Alkosh makes tanking "fun". It doesn't. It prohibits the use of fun setups.
No one prohibits you from having your "fun". You just have to find a group that is also fine with having "fun" your way. For some people "fun" means a clean fast clear. And clean fast clears are achieved thorugh maximum DPS no matter how you put it. Don't find it "fun"? Don't join such groups. Join a group that raids for your "fun" and does not care what their tanks wear. There is a bunch of them out there.
The fundamental difference between survivability and damage you keep ignoring is the fact that you only need minimal required amount of survivability. Yes, you can spam trees, have 100% up time on Aegis and run some stamina sustain set on a tank. But all of that is not needed. People who are experienced and follow mechanics can stay alive without all of that. Damage is avoidable, can be outhealed or just falls into "the straight one-shot" category. That stamina you want so much is just one heavy attack away! No need to spend a full 5-piece on it. So why do all those things? Because they are "fun"? Sure, but you are in group content so look for a group who's "fun" aligns with yours.1 -
SoLooney✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »RogueShark wrote: »"ZeroXF wrote:But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
My enjoyment comes from my own role. I'm going to wear what's needed for the group and content because it's my job to do everything I can to make the run go its best. Just like it's the tank's job... and, shockingly, the dps's. Dps do technically HAVE to wear certain sets, in the same sense tanks and healers do. People don't farm AY or spell strat because they're "okay" sets... dps have metas and builds and abilities that they are expected to use too, because they are expected to pull certain numbers.
Dps have expectations to meet same as tanks and healers.
If you don't enjoy how tanking functions in the game, then dps.
And still all their sets are boosting their performance and not someone else's. So what you just did was draw a false equivalence.
Well tank is, by definition, a support role. Tank's performance is measured by how good he's helping the team. So... doing what is needed for the group is the tank's duty and raison d'etre, there's no way around it. Selfish tank is an oxymoron. So... yes, if there's an urge to go selfish, then damage. ^^
It literally isn't. Tank is by definition a core role of the traditional MMO trinity. If you want to know what support is, go play Rift for a while.
And yeah, a selfish tank is an oxymoron, so whatever you call "selfish" isn't selfish at all, it's helping the group by keeping them safe from the big hits.IzzyStardust wrote: »Protossyder wrote: »So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.
Thank you for the feedback guys
Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.
What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.
The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.
Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.
That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.
Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.
It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.
1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.
So, I never said the game isn't about your enjoyment. If you read closely, I said it isn't JUST about your enjoyment. You are not the only person in the instance, and the team does not revolve around you, nor are you the solo star of the show. It's a team effort, and every member of that team makes or breaks that run based on what they are bringing to the table.
In this game, tank is a support role, whether part of the trinity or not. You are supporting the team, just as the healers are. In a 12 person raid, the healers and tank essentially serve as the four pillars holding the dps up so they can function at max potential. Alkosh may be an admittedly odd set for a tank, on the surface, but the debuff makes it a valuable set, especially when you consider the tank is in the ideal place to activate the constant barrage of synergies being tossed at the boss.
As a healer, I run skills like Power of the Light (a stam ability) which does negligible dmg on my min/max mag build, but the debuff makes an overall difference for the team, so I slot it (if there is no stamplar in the group)and keep going. We slot Bone Shield, another stam based ability, which makes it difficult to keep up, and we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets, and stam abilities aren't optimal on us, but it somehow works, and I'm up to the challenge of making it work for the sake of my team's success (which also translates into my own success).
Also, Alkosh isn't the only base set tanks use. I don't know where you got that idea, but tanks are just as fluid with their sets as a healer, and have to adapt to the content constantly. You got some bad info, and now it's making you sour when you don't need to be.
But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
Um no. DDs build to do Their Job which is High As Possible DPS.
So we do our jobs to facilitate that and protect them where need be; and to be real, in top tier groups excepting certain circumstances - the buffs and debuffs are far more necessary than the heals.
Why can't I build to do MY job as well as possible? Why do people in ESO expect me to make builds in such a way that the DDs can do their jobs better instead?
It's bad design, that's what it is.
Because good tanks can do their job as good as possible AND support their group.
Tanking without supporting would be pretty boring in ESO. Taunt and press right mouse button...sounds funny.
If you think that that's all that tanks do, you obviously haven't tanked in ESO.
And don't try to sell me the crap that wearing Ebon or Alkosh makes tanking any more "fun". You do literally nothing to use Ebon, just equip it. And with Alkosh you press X every 10 seconds... something you'd do anyways. It's not fun, it's just annoying that I can't choose different gear (or skills) without hearing from entitled DDs that I'm "selfish".
All the gear and skills that would make tanking more fun are prohibited in trials, and you dare tell me that it's "fun" to "support" the group by doing nothing but buff their DPS. I'd like to use Werewolf Hide to plant trees every 10 seconds instead of being dependent on someone putting down a synergy for me to use on Alkosh and seeing literally no effect from doing so. And on the NB I want to use Hunt Leader so that I don't run out of stam right away if the healer didn't throw shards, or DDs are (so selflessly) taking all of them. Or use Automated Defense with Radial Sweep on my Templar with some ulti generating set to have Major Aegis up near 100% of the time.
But nope, no fun is permitted, and you bull*** vendors try to tell me that Ebon+Alkosh makes tanking "fun". It doesn't. It prohibits the use of fun setups.
You sound extremely selfish and also sounds like you have a tough time surviving and managing resources. So I wouldnt doubt that would be boring and lame if you're struggling with survival and resources
And the faster a boss dies, the easier it is for you. The longer a fight goes, the more chances for dps, healers and tanks to die to mechanics. Some mechanics are even based on time and screw over your group
Good luck finding groups that put up with that selfish entitled attitude. There are plenty of tanks that can hold aggro, survive, and support the group2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The reason is very simple, and OP answered it very clearly.
Good groups determined how useful it wsa for healers and tanks to use it in raids so any group wants to do well and is looking to do vet raids will have their tanks and often their healers use it.
By definition, any tanks, or healer, looking to run with a good raid group will have it.
There are plenty of casual raid groups that run normal mode trials that probably do not care. But if your in a good group and the raid leader asks you to use it then you will or you will probably experience being replaced.
Edit: same things goes for gear and skills they want you to use. Raid leaders prefer to work with skilled raiders that are cooperative.
If there was another option and it was better than all tanks would be required to use that other option so it seems rather moot.
Besides, it is so ridiculously easy to get WH. WH has been the meta for almost 5 years.Edited by idk on February 10, 2019 7:52AM1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Protossyder wrote: »So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.
Thank you for the feedback guys
Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.
What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.
The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.
Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.
That is an odd stance to take for someone who willingly chose a support role. When you play with a group, it is no longer just about you and your "enjoyment". You are a part of a team who is depending on you to fulfill your role.
Healers do the same thing. I don't go into end-game with Lich and Julianos, because although they're fantastic sets that can potentially give me fantastic stats for healing, they are missing the group utility element. I need sets like Olorime and Worms and Mending, because it buffs the dmg for the entire group and/or protects them from taking further dmg during a fight. I slot my Solar Prison Ulti because it provides further dmg mitigation for my group. Mitigation>reactive healing and enables you to throw out more buffs and debuffs, which creates the best form of dmg mitigation (killing things faster before they can kill you. Tanks have to set themselves up the same way.
It's a symbiotic system that enables players to push for higher scores on the leaderboards and complete super challenging content. Yes, a player who has to do nothing but this for the duration of their time in game will eventually burn out on it, but that's why players rarely ever play JUST a tank. You have to allow yourself to branch out and try out multiple roles so you don't pigeon hole yourself into only one playstyle.
1. Tank is not a "support role". Support is a "support role" and doesn't exist in ESO (unlike for example Rift). Tank is a core role of the MMO trinity.
2. The game is not for my enjoyment? Aside from the obvious irony of that statement, whose enjoyment is it for? The DD's? Guess we found out the area requiring the most balancing...
3. All of the sets you listed that healers use for "support" also have stats useful to the healers themselves. Find me a single one useful tank stat on Alkosh. That set is poorly designed garbage, which is why it's forced on tanks rather than being used by the role it was intended for.
So, I never said the game isn't about your enjoyment. If you read closely, I said it isn't JUST about your enjoyment. You are not the only person in the instance, and the team does not revolve around you, nor are you the solo star of the show. It's a team effort, and every member of that team makes or breaks that run based on what they are bringing to the table.
In this game, tank is a support role, whether part of the trinity or not. You are supporting the team, just as the healers are. In a 12 person raid, the healers and tank essentially serve as the four pillars holding the dps up so they can function at max potential. Alkosh may be an admittedly odd set for a tank, on the surface, but the debuff makes it a valuable set, especially when you consider the tank is in the ideal place to activate the constant barrage of synergies being tossed at the boss.
As a healer, I run skills like Power of the Light (a stam ability) which does negligible dmg on my min/max mag build, but the debuff makes an overall difference for the team, so I slot it (if there is no stamplar in the group)and keep going. We slot Bone Shield, another stam based ability, which makes it difficult to keep up, and we have to use sets like Ebon and Plague Doctor on occasion during runs where we're kiting dmg as well as healing. Those aren't healing sets, and stam abilities aren't optimal on us, but it somehow works, and I'm up to the challenge of making it work for the sake of my team's success (which also translates into my own success).
Also, Alkosh isn't the only base set tanks use. I don't know where you got that idea, but tanks are just as fluid with their sets as a healer, and have to adapt to the content constantly. You got some bad info, and now it's making you sour when you don't need to be.
But DDs build JUST for their enjoyment and expect tanks and healers to enhance their enjoyment. It's not rare to see a 15k HP DD. If they had any consideration for the healer's enjoyment, they'd have 20k HP.
Pretty sure if the tank is running ebon there is not a 15k dps in the group. Ebon is a standard set because it does more to increase survival of the group than any other set they could wear. With that everyone can put more into the stats that help them get their primary role done better.
It was normal to tell people they needed as much health as they needed to survive and those that run with pretty good groups are good at surviving. Yes, the healer plays a role but the DD, and everyone, has to do their part to avoid damage, If they are not good at avoiding damage compared to the rest of the group then they will end up with a group at their skill level.
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