Why is Warhorn required?

Fellwitch

Can someone please explain why it is that Warhorn is needed by every single tank?

I understand what it does, I just do not understand why the whole end-game is based around an ultimate.

Where is the build diversification for tanks if they always have to use this? To me, it seems like Warhorn does not fit the goals ZOS is striving for, especially with the race changes.

Are there even any end-game groups that do not require the tank to use this? It seems very constricting and limiting, because every other option the tank could use as an ultimate is a huge dps loss for the group.

Maybe this has been answered before?

Thank you

Royaji

You've answered your own question.

Fellwitch wrote: »

every other option the tank could use as an ultimate is a huge dps loss for the group.

susmitds

True Tanks don't exist in ESO PvE, unlike PvP. In PvE, the tank is a buffing/debuffing support unit, not a traditional tank like other MMOs.

Fellwitch

Royaji wrote: »

You've answered your own question.

Fellwitch wrote: »

every other option the tank could use as an ultimate is a huge dps loss for the group.

But that is exactly my point. If there is no other option to run, that is to me indicative of a broken system.

Luigi_Vampa

It is a broken system. Tanks in ESO are DPS buff monkeys. It's why I don't like tanking in this game.

Royaji

Fellwitch wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

You've answered your own question.

Fellwitch wrote: »

every other option the tank could use as an ultimate is a huge dps loss for the group.

But that is exactly my point. If there is no other option to run, that is to me indicative of a broken system.

You have other options. They are just not optimal. Ultimates that can increase group DPS are very scrarce and not all of them are capable of covering 12 people. If you want to use a defensive ultimate - there is already someone who can tank the same content without it. So in an optimal group tank who can buff the DPS while staying alive all the same is preferred.

Royaji

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

It is a broken system. Tanks in ESO are DPS buff monkeys. It's why I don't like tanking in this game.

And I don't like tanking in games where a tank is a meat shield with a little aggro minigame bolted on. To each their own.

Fellwitch

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

susmitds

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Think of it, this way, wouldn't just holding block and being battered by the baddies be boring? This at least, allows tanks to have a sort of reactive gameplay, unlike traditional tanks from other games, where it was basically AoE taunt and eat all damages, hoping your raid kills whatever needs killing.

Protossyder

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.

Feanor

It has to do with mechanics as well. If you don’t actually need a defensive ultimate because you can’t heal or block through a one shot anyway, or the higher DPS allows you to skip mechanics, you’d naturally go for Warhorn.

WuffyCerulei

Well, Warhorn is one of the 2 sources of the major crit damage buff, thus it buffs the group’s dps. The other source is Light’s Champion, a morph of the resto ultimate, it doesn’t affecy all 12 people or give it quite as long. It’s essential for trials mainly, as you’re buffing your 8 dps to kill that boss with like 50-100 million HP faster. Warhorn also gives 10% more stam and magicka to everyone, and everyone in the group benefits from it.

Royaji

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

No. This is quite a generalization you are trying to pull here. There are some people (even on these forums) who want their tanks to be as tanky as they can be and build to survive a nuke while the that the game can throw at them are bow and arrows.

A good tank can stay alive with very minimal tankiness relying on his knowledge of movesets, timings and mechanics. Why would a tank like that build to be tanky? They do not need it. This is where you put on support sets and skills and make everyone's lives easier. Shorter fights benefit everyone including you.

If you can't stay alive? Stay tanky. Learn the fights. With time you can try stripping your tankiness off. But do not come to a high-end guild demanding being allowed in on a run with Fortified Brass, Warrior Poet and Magma Shell as your main ultimate. This is tanking equivalent of showing up with 15k DPS to a group with 45k average DPS.

I would love to see more support oriented sets to have some diversity in tanking. It will never happen though. ZOS is already hard at work battling power creep. Giving us better support sets will only make it worse. This is why every time ZOS releases new sets most experienced tanks just skim through new tanking sets and never bother to get them. Those sets do not fill the needs of a high-end tank.

SaintSubwayy

Royaji wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

No. This is quite a generalization you are trying to pull here. There are some people (even on these forums) who want their tanks to be as tanky as they can be and build to survive a nuke while the that the game can throw at them are bow and arrows.

A good tank can stay alive with very minimal tankiness relying on his knowledge of movesets, timings and mechanics. Why would a tank like that build to be tanky? They do not need it. This is where you put on support sets and skills and make everyone's lives easier. Shorter fights benefit everyone including you.

If you can't stay alive? Stay tanky. Learn the fights. With time you can try stripping your tankiness off. But do not come to a high-end guild demanding being allowed in on a run with Fortified Brass, Warrior Poet and Magma Shell as your main ultimate. This is tanking equivalent of showing up with 15k DPS to a group with 45k average DPS.

I would love to see more support oriented sets to have some diversity in tanking. It will never happen though. ZOS is already hard at work battling power creep. Giving us better support sets will only make it worse. This is why every time ZOS releases new sets most experienced tanks just skim through new tanking sets and never bother to get them. Those sets do not fill the needs of a high-end tank.

well explained!

Alto Id like to point out that in existing raidgroups, dropping certain Sets is not as big of a problem, compared when you try to get into a good group.

For Example vHoF Release, your mian Tanks went full Ham for Green Pact and Plague Doctor (OK DK groupshield was broken, given that), but since they didnt know any mechanics, it was our go to Tankgear, undtill we cleaerd certain bosses with ease, then we swapped to more supportive setups, and it became a breeze to do them.

ATomiX96

only source of major force that affects 12 people (at least right now, if im not mistaken resto ult will also affect 12 people next patch?) -> major force = 30% more crit damage -> more group dps -> skip mechanics -> faster/easier clear

Most tanks dont need defensive ultimates except on a few encounters but even then they still run warhorn and only use their defensive ultimates as a panic button.

What else would you use that makes sense to run in a group.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. at least right now, if im not mistaken resto ult will also affect 12 people next patch?

You are mistaken.

major force = 30%

Twice. Major force is a flat 15%, it used to be 30% of your total crit hit damage. Now it just adds a flat 15% on top of the rest.

MartiniDaniels

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Try to see it other way, as higher group synergy, as higher level of group gameplay. Of course you may go with all self-survival sets and survive without any external healing in majority of situations and only taunt and pierce boss. But instead of that you rely your life on healer but buff all 12 people with horn, and debuff all mobs with alkosh.

The only real reason to complain here is lack of any choice. I mean if there were other effective ways then that standard for years combo ebon+alkosh+horn. For example ultimate that insta-resurrects everyone in radius of 10 meters etc, item sets that can be competitive with alkosh and ebon and so on

SodanTok

You are right that it is not very diverse, but the issue of diversity is not that tanks have to buff other's DPS but that there is just one significantly better way to do it and any other pale in comparison or in case of ultimates mostly dont even exist.

Complaining that you cant play selfish tank is mostly just not understanding this game and trying to apply mechanic of different game on this one.

Left4Daud

It’s required because of the awesome sound. Hearing the horn go off gets everyone’s blood pumping!

Right?

VaranisArano

At the trials level, there is always going to be a meta. When you have 12 people working together, there's simply no reason to make things harder than you need to, so those 12 people min-max to make the run as efficient as possible.

That's why trials tanks wear sets and use ultimates that benefit the group. They are min-maxing to support the group activity while tanking. Similarly, healers min-max to heal and supprt the group, while DPS min-max to provide the greatest possible DPS.

So Warhorn just happens to be the best group support ultimate around. If something replaces it, trials tanks will drop Warhorn as fast as Trials Healers tossed out SPC for their new Olorime.

commdt

Because it gives your DDs damage, damage kills things

validifyedneb18_ESO

PVE DD in this game is an exercise in stacking every possible buff. There are a limited number of generic buffs and ideally you want all your dd to have as many of them up for as long as possible.

Not a fan of that system personally, but its what we have so whatever.

Then on the flipside tanks dont really have to worry in this game. They focus on taunting, controlling the placement of people, but not really on surviving. The builds are already waaaaay good enough to survive anything out of a deliberate 1shot mechanic, so excess survive like ults or even gear is spent on increasing dps for the group.

WrathOfInnos

It’s pretty common for tanks to use other ultimates, like Shield Discipline or Magma Shell. It’s just that the best tanks have reached a skill level where a defensive ultimate is usually not required. Therefore their best route is to help group DPS as much as possible. Since their build doesn’t have enough damage to make an ultimate like Meteor or Dawnbreaker hit hard, they are better off increasing the damage of others by buffing with Warhorn.

ZeroXFF

Protossyder wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.

What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.

The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.

Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.

Starlock

ZeroXFF wrote: »

What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.

Interesting point. I wager the damage dealers will come back and say "without good damage dealers, you're not making it through this content, period, so I need to be selfish." Given the current design of many dungeons in this game, they'd probably have a fair point. I've felt for quite some time that damage dealing needs to be reigned in hard in this game and the ceiling slammed down. I just don't know what that looks like or how that would be possible, and it would require a sweeping rebalance of many content areas in the game. How tanking would be affected by that is anyone's guess.

NoMoreChillies

If only Ultimates scaled off your highest stat : Mag/Stam/HP. Then variety would follow.

Luigi_Vampa

Royaji wrote: »

Luigi_Vampa wrote: »

It is a broken system. Tanks in ESO are DPS buff monkeys. It's why I don't like tanking in this game.

And I don't like tanking in games where a tank is a meat shield with a little aggro minigame bolted on. To each their own.

I just wish tanks had to do more to keep the group alive. I wish we had a use for defensive group ults. I wish we couldn't just out dps mechanics or skip them entirely. Some of the vet dlcs and trials are fun, but stack and burn is boring to me. Like you said though, to each their own.

karekiz

"End-game" groups if you mean by trial score runs? They will run what kill mobs fast as it betters the score. Really that simple.

However, you can use non warhorn ults in plenty of non trial PvE content. For example My sorc tank uses negate in Vet MHK HM - it is in general far more useful than a warhorn. At the end burn? Sure, but otherwise the DPS far like me to just negate all the adds.

March is very similar. I also use negate during HM to lock down the wolves for the mass AoE. A warhorn isn't gonna change much as its isn't a DPS race its about survival.

Sometimes I slot barrier with newer DPS. Warhorn doesn't make bad DPS good it makes good DPS great. Extra crit doesn't really help when your teaching a player a dungeon and they are panicking trying to dance to AoE's messing up their rotation anyway.

So it all depends, at least to me.

Sinolai

It increases you group's dps big amount when used. Thus, hard mechanics that require burning through something will be easier. Also required to get fast runs for big scores.
Although I think it is overrated. Survivality and Crowd control (Magma Armor, Negate, Nova, Barrier) is better especially when your group is not that good. A dead dd is not gonna burn through anything and a dead tank/healer often means wipe.

Fellwitch

Thank you for the responses so far everyone. It has been very enlightening to be able to see the different perspectives you all have.

Some people have been slightly aggressive in their replies, which I find a bit unwarranted, but, it's all good

So, in summary, and putting together everyone's comments, this is what I believe the conclusion is:

Warhorn is a necessary ultimate due to the fact that the current meta requires its use exclusively as compared to any other possible ultimate a tank could use, with a few exceptions depending on specific encounters.

Some players have lamented this fact while others feel that the tank has very little to do besides blocking and holding agro, so they might as well slot this ultimate.

Being that ESO is predicated on being able to have diverse roles and abilities for each class, being pigeon-holed into one ability, no matter how beneficial it is, is a sign of an underlying issue with end-game encounters and how they are resolved, not necessarily the skill. For instance, many have mentioned how they would like to do more supporting actions while tanking and are unable to do so.

For those that are struggling with this and are thinking, "Omg selfish tank, do something for your group," I encourage you to step back and look at everything objectively. No one is saying tanks do not want to support their group, the problem is that tanks would like to do more, or do different things to support their group, and instead for 99% of the time, there is only one viable option - Warhorn.

As far as what could be done to change this, I have no idea - I am merely stating the issue.

Protossyder

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Fellwitch wrote: »

So in general everyone seems to agree that being a buffbot for the rest of the group is not fun, but it is what it is.

Thank you for the feedback guys

Your definition of fun seems very boring to me. Only having to taunt and hold the bosses and adds would be lame as hell. Of course you can slot and use any ultimate you want as long as you are not part of an end game group.

What's not fun is building your character for someone else's benefit. If I make a squishy buff bot, my tank doesn't feel powerful or enjoyable. I don't know how you can find it fun to watch debuff trackers. People love to call certain tank builds "selfish" and look down on people that use those builds, but nobody complains about a DD building selfishly to boost his own performance in his primary role.

The current design is broken if you call it progression when you wear worse gear.

Also, if you think that all a tank does is hold block and taunt, you haven't really tanked in this game. Have fun in vCR with that approach. No amount of buff sets is going to save you if that's all you do there.

So it's not in your interest to finally kill the boss of whatever content you are currently doing? And please stop using over-exaggerations like "squishy buff bot", they may sound good, but are just not true.

The point is that DPS is indeed everything and every role is meant to do its part and contribute towards it. This is not a broken system, actually every game where the enemy (or yourself) has a health bar works like this.

I was told several times that DD is the most difficult role, but I honestly have the most respect for the tanks and healers instead of other DDs. Because you are right, tanking is more than just holding "block and taunt" and I never thought different. While I mainly play DD in trials, I just enjoy tanking in dungeons (especially vet dlc dungeons). Wearing sets like Alkosh and Ebonheart to provide group utility just add more to the challenge I love to take.

In my opinion this is not about being selfish or not, it's about being a bad or a good tank. I can survive being a "squishy buff bot" while being pressured by the boss, adds and mechanics, can you?